Amber Jane Westin throwing a rock and failing three drug tests

AD, you would have made for a good ‘tricoteur’ at the site of the guillotine in the city square…

the fact is that if someone does something that is socially deviant and it results in someones death, then society is going to scorn it. There is nothing that can be done to stop that. As I see it, it is a part of the punishment.

stoned, driving, pursued by police, failing to pull over, driving dangerously and hitting a person resulting in their death.

thats not an accident.

take your poor me shite somewhere else.

i hope she does time.

An Accident would be if somebody’s brakes failed suddenly, or a kangaroo distracted a driver etc.

Failing to stop when asked by police, and then a red light is not an accident.

I’m sure Amber didn’t mean to kill anyone. But by doing stupid and illegal things she did. And after you kill someone you cna’t just expect everyone to leave you alone. This happened in our city and naturally we are interested in the outcome.

Roughly the same sort of message as when you arrive on an internet forum with a multiple personality spewing ridiculous legal threats and calling everyone there a waste of space for doing exactly what you’re doing.

I hate to sorta weigh in on this, as it seems to be getting rather sticky, but what sort of message are you sending to your child by throwing rocks at people? If you don’t like someone, throw rocks at them?

1 last thing, you dont even have her name right.
btw, thanks nic, can totaly understand where your coming from

Serves me right for not refreshing before posting, this thread has gone way down hill. I can’t see why anyone is still posting on it. Although we don’t normally close threads if things don’t calm down I may be inclinded to delete a few posts and/or block some userids. Pull your heads in people.

how’s the multiple personalities going there Patens?

BTW Amber brought her family into it when she relied on their chronic dope smoking to justify her bail breaches (or was that perjury?).

Actions, consequences.

Simple enough stuff

In conclusion, if you bothered to actualy read the posts when have i ever said amber should not be punished? Please get a life and talk about people you actualy know. Oh thats right, this is how you live, on a pc (not even a mac) bithing about people you dont know. Most people would call you a bully, only diff here is you hide behind your computer. Weak

Patens, I agree with most of what you say with the exception of the ACCIDENT. People are responsible for their actions, if they fail to see the likely outcomes of those actions it is still their folly not some unforeseeable chance happening. I’m not saying Ms Westin deliberately set out to take a life but a vehicle crash was a foreseeable outcome of her actions and the loss of life a foreseeable outcome of that.

Riot is notorious for people making harsh comments (as a free and open forum it’s part of the charter to let people air their opinions) and although I can totally understand a families wish and need to protect their own, Ms Westin’s actions before, during and since the tragic incident have been less than responsible and open for criticism. People will continue to discuss this incident and if you find yourself pained by such airing of opinion I suggest you refrain from reading it but even if it wasn’t posted on a forum like Riot or in the letters section of the paper, etc, etc don’t fool yourself that people don’t feel the way some of the harsher comments here indicate they do.

3 brothers?
ah vg, can you read, do you not understand? lol, I am kasey, a girl, you know jordan, and the last one well… mate if you knew anything you would know its a place, not a person. hahaha you really are very sad, big 6’2 110kg man, going to come to melb and kick my ass? you really dont know much about this situation do you?

Patens – if they did not want media hounding them (as is their occupation) perhaps an intervention order could have been applied for.

Only people in developing nations throw rocks.

As for being in the limelite – step back you ignoramus and have a look why.

Have you forgotten the AJW killed an innocent through her own selfish act of trying to evade her responsibilities. Not to mention a few days before christmas. Someone lost a parent – a spouse – wake the hell up you ignoramus

If only she trod the same path as our friend DJ – then the only thing we would have to worry about is the eyesore memorial where AJW would have eaten a bullet dodged responsibility once again.

Its easy – do the crime do the time.
To think reporters would not be interested is indicative of how little you know about the world.

Damn……

Sadly for patens the lies have been exposed. Not a sibling at all, as he/she/it can’t tell me where one of their brothers currently is, when they really should.

Patens, I have destroyed you. Away with you, you piffling morning reverie.

Sometimes it’s fun to undertake a battle of wits with an unarmed man

“i have a job and the freedom to do what I wish, sounds like your the one sucking of society.”

but, previously on this thread

“All the rest of you though, does the boss know what you do at the computer when your supposed to be working?”

So which is it, work or play for you?

mmm… nothing to say now?
I have things to do, unlike yourself, but dont worry I will be back.

“Want to make him angry?”

Bring it on 6’2″, 110kg

I like driving in my Carma
It’s not quite a Jaguarma

Where are the 3 brothers right now, particularly the middle name mentioned? It may add to your cedibility

do you know what a rockspider is? lol, please if your goin to put me down do it with class. “we” as you put it, have the right to make our own comments, not random putdowns on total strangers. As i said im here for my sister. Ramdom comments like dole bludger make me giggle, i have a job and the freedom to do what I wish, sounds like your the one sucking of society.

kasey, jordan, john marony

umm… patens: – with her little ‘accident’, *Amber* drew her family into the public eye – don’t start complaining that the media is being unfair. How many times should we (ie society) let someone get away with stupid sh1t before we stop calling them ‘accidents’, ‘mistakes’, etc and put a more accurate label on them!?!

Im logged in as patens, you know who he is, so you should know me. you also know my brother and where he is. Want to make him angry?

As I said before

If you are Amber’s sister, what is your brother’s name and where is he now?

Prove it

patens, I am as occupied as you appear to be, so rhetorically, don’t you have a life or a job?

Oh that’s right, you’re a dole bludging pothead from that family aren’t you ?

You are a Rockspider.

Please, post more things. Just proves what i was saying before. If you know my family, you must know who i am…

“Both patens and myself have a connection to amber, do you?”

If you are posting as patens then why do you refer to ‘patens and myself’ in your post?

You’ll have to do a lot better than that to hit a nerve with me.

If you are Amber’s sister, what is your brother’s name and where is he now?

am i vg? look at my name. Sounds like i hit a nerve…

maelinar, dont you have a life or a job? Is this the highlight of your day? As I said, sad, angry lonely people. Im here because this is my sister, why are you here? Both patens and myself have a connection to amber, do you? Carma bites you on the arse when you least expect it and calling someone a rockspider is pretty low.

“This is my younger sister you “people” are commenting on”

Bullshit it is.

“Leave her child and her family out of this, or I will start to take legal actions on the slanderous comments being posted here.”

Bring it on. I have forgotten more about the law than you will ever know

“To say the things you have shows me how empty, lonely and sad most of you people are.”

I am extremely happy, live a tremendous (stable) family life, and my life is full of good things.

You are a silly liar

“No act of murder was commited,”

Hence she wasn’t charged with it

“post comments on a topic they have no idea on”

Are you sure I don’t, really sure? 100% sure

“Remeber latham and the camera smashing incident? slightly similar yes?”

In fact nothing like it, he didn’t kill anyone (allegedly)

“All the rest of you though, does the boss know what you do at the computer when your supposed to be working? or is this a hobby for you, posting your 2 cents on current affair sites in your spare time? i truley feel sorry for you then.”

I feel sorry for you taking the time out of your valuable day to track down this site and comment on our apparent ‘sadness’. I’m guessing the dickhead factor might be slightly more expanded in your case

This is my younger sister you “people” are commenting on. How dare you scum talk about another human in this manner. I know for a fact amber feels horrible for this ACCIDENT. My family is not all potheads so dont be so general with your putdowns. To say the things you have shows me how empty, lonely and sad most of you people are. Leave her child and her family out of this, or I will start to take legal actions on the slanderous comments being posted here. In reguards to the people that claim to know amber, perhaps you know the rest of my family too? If so then you would know how protective we are of amber. We know she commited a terrible act that day, let her deal with due process. And the fact that she took a life. Lets just hope nobody here ever makes a terrible mistake that will haunt them and their family for the rest of their lives.

Lol.

A rockspider calling another rockspider’s bluff.

There’s something faintly similar to the pot calling the kettle black story to patens angle here.

The only reason i’m here viewing this forum and inputting information is that i actually know this person. I’m not going to try and state that nothing is wrong with amber’s actions on the day that the horrific event initialy took place or that throwing stones at someone who’s job it is to follow people around and catch them at their weakest. i know that the rock throwing incident was due to someone trying to film her daughter. If it was your child rapt up in a situation similar, would you be okay with someone approaching her/him? would you attempt to prevent someone with a camera (whom has been following you round like a stalker EVERY where you go) from doing so? would you stop at just throwing rocks to protect your child? Remeber latham and the camera smashing incident? slightly similar yes? Ok, so saying that back to the real issue. A person has been killed, lifes have been destroyed, pain has been caused by an “ACCIDENT”. No act of murder was commited, a young girl (stupid in her attempt to avoid police ofcourse) made a mistake. If she could do things again i’m sure she’d make different choices. I find most of the comments on this site to be very low brow, and poorly thought through. Canberra must really be as boring as everyone in the real world thinks, otherwise why would people sit at their home/work terminals and post comments on a topic they have no idea on? If your part of the “families” involved, sure it’s understandable you would post here, and all are sorry for your lose. All the rest of you though, does the boss know what you do at the computer when your supposed to be working? or is this a hobby for you, posting your 2 cents on current affair sites in your spare time? i truley feel sorry for you then.

I’m strongly in favour of rehab too.
It is better for all of us if there are less angry desperados out there.

But there is a place for punishment too.

I think it is worth while having rehabilitation but for a situation like this it should be dealt with, with punishment as well as rehab. You can’t blame the fact she killed someone because she smokes pot. It’s not the only fact to consider.

Come and sit on this log, DMD, and let’s have a little chat about rehabilitation.

Surprisingly there are many, many decent law abiding people in this country. Put simply, they are a dime a dozen.

With this surplus of good people, we really don’t need to put so much effort into rehabilitating bad people. In other words we don’t them, rehabilitated or not!

There is such a misplaced emphasis on rehabilitation because the types who promote it (usually professionally) are not so much interested in the welfare of Society (the hit and miss of rehabilitative efforts)but the challenge of reforming a bad egg and the personal satisfaction that can bring. So the issue is, should we be pouring resources into rehabilitation just to keep a few community workers entertained?

Well, she would be eligable for parole if she behaved herself (or if the parole board were a bunch of softies – I don’t know their makeup, so I don’t know how lenient or otherwise they are).

Considering her behaviour whilst on bail, she’s unlikely to suddenly become a model prisoner. In which case, no, she shouldn’t be. But, as most of the things on this site have taught us, there’s a big difference between what should happen and what does happen.

Amber Westin deserves everything she gets if not more. Its sad that such a loving family has had to experience such thing. Knowing them, I no that they are beautiful people who are very forgiving and wouldn’t want to “reach over the table and punch her”, which in a way is very sad because that is exactly what i feel like doing. I no for a fact that miss westin has been like this for years and i am extremely happy the public can see through the “Poor Poor Me” saga. Just quietly I think it’s a joke that she be given 7 years maximum for the life she has taken; knowingly also that this life will never be given back but its a thing called justice. I wish the best for her child and hope that the child grows up in a loving family unlike her own. I would hate to have to wake up each morning and think “I can’t believe I killed someone” for the rest of my life. This will be on her concious for ever. My question is tho if she does get sentenced to goal won’t she be eligible for paroll and not have to serve her full sentence any way?

Yep.
In society we have made rules to enable co-existence.
One of them is ‘do not kill other people’.

I don’t know about selecting the righteous few – in fact, it’s more about removing the, um, unrighteous few (or, more correctly, the anti-social few). If you’re anti-social, that means, by definition, that you’re working against the good of our society, and therefore it’s worthwhile considering removing you from all the benefits of our society (like, say, freely running around smoking and drinking your choice of drugs) for a predefined period, or until it’s determined you’re able to co-exist in society again.

Part of the very nature of living together is that we need to sort out what we do with those who impede peaceful co-existence.

And, given the absence of the Ludivico technique to give instant social readjustment, gaol’s an appropriate form of removal from the rest of society.

“Why should punishment take a precedent over rehabilitation in this case?”

Because she allegedly killed someone, dickhead!

And i was looking for my retractable pencil…

Why should punishment take a precedent over rehabilitation in this case? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I though society was about finding ways for humans to co-exist, not selecting the righteous few and forgetting about the rest. Even if the rest need more attention than others.

Agree, Johnboy, but I’m suggesting there may be offenders deserving of gaol that won’t end up there because the Courts are sulking and being killjoys – “Oh everyone expects us to start madly gaoling burglars and thugs because the ACT has a new prison… well youse can all get rooted! We’ll gaol who we like, when we like, and where we like. Actually, our current preference is for home detention.Its all the rage in Scandinavia, you know!”.

I kid you not. When this prison was being mooted, the ACT Governemnt consulted ex prisoners on its design. You can imagine what the response was :

“Dear Chief Minister

Thank you for consulting us on the new prison.

Generally we are happy with most aspects of the new building although it was not clear that the swimming pool would catch day-long sun and the spa baths could be bigger but our main objection was to the fence. It seemed unnecessarily high and intrusive. A two metre high fence would seem quite adequate.

YS

God’s Little Reformed lambs”.

Surplus? I thought all prisons were supposed to be “overcrowded”. Otherwise, they are a holiday camp.

If 4 paragraphs is TLDR I’d hate to see you reading a book 😉

surely a surplus of cells would be a particularly poor reason to deprive someone of their liberty?

With the new prison, the Government and the community are making the presumption the Courts will fill it up! If the Courts think their independence is being infringed (ie told what to do), they tend to go in the opposite direction (eg, in my opinion, as in the Saudi Bill case).

There’s a theory that the ACT Courts are loathe to incarcerate offenders because they are gaoled in NSW, away from family support, and that if there was a local gaol, the Courts would be more willingly to stuff offenders in it. Well, all I’m saying, ACT Government, is that you might find you have a surplus of prison cells. If that does eventuate, then … mandatory sentencing sort of looks a sensible measure so we get a return on our prison!

(too long, didn’t read)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

Sorry, can’t force them to amend

TLDR?

Its not an outrage to suggest other forms of rehabilitation. Just completely inappropriate to assert that rehabilitation should have some precedence over punishment in this instance.

No one says prisons are 100% effective. Their primary purpose is to remove people from society for punishment. Rehab, in any form, is secondary and very much up to the individual prisoner. You can force them to amend their ways. Some people are just lifelong recalcitrants

lol, yawn. the thing that makes RiotACT worth reading is the mix of heated opinion and glib smartarsery – this thread is slanted towards the former. I totally agree with Hasdrubahl though, he and his fellow villagers are salt of the earth…

(wait, is that joke funny or intellectual masturbation?)

Anyway VG, we all understand your qualification and I personally agree with your stance. However, your posts, particularly the last two, are wayyyy TLDR.

btw thanks for the young ones gags… I remember one insult from Rick – ‘you fascist junta!’ with an aspirated J… lawl

Yeah, I’d just been watching the young ones, the episode where they write a letter to the bank manager, it was kind of stuck in my head. Sorry.
To Maelinar, I am aware of the ‘real world’ as you call it, I have been ripped off and robbed. But that doesn’t fill me with the kind of hardline rhetoric you seem to have adopted after similar experiences. I just think there are problems with humanity that need to be resolved, not thrown away.
VG, you said earlier that you often have to deal with people who’ve already been through the prison system. If prison is a quiet place to reflect and reform, why are you still dealing with these people. If prisons are not 100% effective, why is it such an outrage to suggest other forms of rehabilitation.

Let’s just say the screaming obvious was plain to the one’s who did remand people. By and large their fortitude is sorely lacking, but on the odd occasion they do get it right. Lack of consistency, or consistent guts to make the right decision, rather than waver like willows, is what is required of them. On the whole they lack it, bar certain instances of getting it right.

The NSW systrem seems to get this sort of thing right. One breach of bail and you’re in, but again I’m sure there’s the odd one out. Their system seems far more consistent. But then again they have/had Pat O’Shane, who was a disgrace to the office she held, and overturned on appeal so much she must have had her own section in the NSW Budget.

Don’t get me wrong though. I love my job. I love going to work every day (nearly) and I do respect the amount of authority and trust that the community gives to me through my office. I would say that 99.9% of my colleagues also feel the same way. Yeah nightshift and shitty jobs are pains in the ass, but that’s what I get paid to do and if I don’t like it I know where the front door is.

Seeing things like we’ve described in the above, however, is a kick in the guts. But in Canberra, sadly like beaten dogs, we have gotten used to disappointment when its gotten to the Court stage but, according to some legal pundits, its not our responsibility once it gets there. It is, however, our responsibility to explain to victims of crime, why the Court has seen fit to acquit someone when the evidence was clear, dismiss a charge without consultation, or bail someone after their 3rd breach. And guess who bears the focus of the emotions that causes? Not the magistracy in this town that’s for sure. Hard to hit them when their sitting in their ivory towers.

I’d love to see some of our learned judiciary have a go at explaining it though….but I’m not holding my breath for that day

Hang on, vg, if you’ve seen bail rejected for a hell of a lot less, then surely there are a few members of the local judiciary meeting your requirement for sufficient intestinal fortitude – just not any of the ones Amber’s fortunate enough to have encountered thus far.

Or were the members of the judiciary who denied bail in those instances in other juristictions?

I find it hard to reconcile that members of your professional fraternity may disagree with the point of bringing somebody to the judicial system to the tune of 5 times (iniaial offence that provoked flee response, murder/manslaughter, bail, bail, bail) at least, having any regard left for the integrity of the judicial system.

Unfortunately, as somebody who has worn uniform for a period of my life as well, we try to do our job as efficiently as possible and attempt to improve the system from within, often the perception being justified that higher up the chain is raft with inequalities and inefficiency. Rinse, Wash, Repeat.

I have never envied the job of a police officer, as they deal with people at the worst moment in their lives on a daily basis, kind of like being in a continuous episode of Jerry Springer.

Which was what I was going to touch on next. If/when she is convicted the punishment should be at an appropriate level to:

a) actually punish her for what she did
b) provide a deterrent for others to act in the same manner; and
c) reflect the community’s feelings towards this kind of behaviour

The fact that a life was lost should up the ante significantly. As I said, no punishment will bring back a loved one, but the community’s sense of disgust at this sort of behaviour should be reflect in the sentence.

There’s no way on God’s green earth she should be walking the streets right now. One breach of bail is enough, we are talking 3 here. That, in itself, is a disgrace. I know there would be some in my line of employ who would be thinking what is the point of opposing bail on anyone if this person is allowed to essentially skate on the conditions that actually allow her to still be in the community. I have seen bail refused for a hell of a lot less.

I am not, however, holding my breath for any sort of result that will satisfy the community coming out of this tragedy. I have no faith in the intestinal fortitude of any of our local judiciary to make hard decisions. It is easy to bail someone, throw out admissible evidence, or dismiss charges when you are rarely, if ever, questioned about it. From memory the DPP has taken only 1 or 2 matters elsewhere on appeal in recent memory, one being the Hardwick murder. If I comment on that matter I will only make myself angry.

And once again, for those members of my organisation that troll through pages like this, what I say is my personal, not professional, opinion

Rehab is one those terms loosely used. A drink driver to get rehab so they don’t drink drive is not really something that can be ‘rehabilitated’.
Likewise a person running from the cops and causing the unintentional death of another who lives in an environment of social apathy is not really going to get ‘rehabilitated’ is it ?

Rehab in its typical form is associated with stopping a dependency, not stopping drink driving dependency or a ‘running from the cop dependency’.

If she is found guilty, lock her up, make her do community work and put a tight lease on the disregard for bail conditions. but for FFS ‘rehab’ is a waste of time since bail conditions aren’t even espected.

there remains the issue of protecting the public from a dangerous driver who has refused to obey instructions.

No worries Terubo, I know what you mean.

No punishment will bring back a lost loved one, I will grant that

I am not saying the she should not be punished or held responsible for what she has done. She should be.I am just saying that I do not know what that punishment should be. The person responsible for the first death that occured in our family commited a hit and run and was drunk at the time. He went to jail for eighteen months. Did it punish him? Perhaps. Did it rehabilatate him? Absolutley not. Would spending more time in jail have rehabilated him. Again, no. Did it make us feel any different about losing a much loved family member. No. The second person responsible for the second death has not appeared before the court as yet and is doing everything in their power to leave it that way for as long as possible. When he does it will not change the way we feel about losing another cherished person. They are still gone and will never come back. Punishment must be dished out, responsibilty must be taken and rehabilatation needs to occur. But again I say that locking her in jail for years and years will prove absolutley nothing.

Yeah, thought you’d come back with that vg. The Drewster’s speaking from the bereaved family side of things, that’s all I meant.

And 17 years in the coppers gives me no experience in it I guess

I agree on all but the won’t help part.

A component of locking somebody away in a prison is for the benefit of that person, furthermore segregating them from society is for the benefit of society.

In prison she will not be able to drive at high speed through a red light to kill somebody.

She was given a chance at leniency on a couple of occasions, and has chosen to flaunt her disregard and stupidity. The full weight of the judicial system should be brought to bear upon her, rather than the wet bus ticket slap she has received.

As a society, we have all come away from this situation with an undeniably depleted respect for the judicial system. Locking Ms High-on-weed away is not only to preserve the justice system as it applies to her, it is intended to preserve the justice system as it applies to all of us as well.

The magistrate should be sacked. Now.

I think we should take note of the comment from The Drewster (about 11 comments up). At least he/she can speak from bitter experience.

You complete and utter bastard

Neil! Your bed’s on fire!

Another thing…DMD – did you honestly use the words “fascist bully boy”?

Someone has been watching “The Young Ones” matinee on BBC i see.

Oh no – my lentils.

DMD, I have read the “Chopper” books – does that make me a world source of the going on’s inside the Jail system like yourself.

You cant help someone who does not want to help themselves.

Okay – how about a middle way? People need to be given chances, VG. But people should only get a limited number DMD. The criminal justice system loses its meaning if it can only seek to rehabilitate rather than rehabilitate and punish.

IMO, Ms Westin has used her chances up. Breaching bail conditions once might warrant leniency in some circumstances. Four times seems to be stretching the friendship.

Prisons suck alright. That’s why they’re a last resort. It would appear that leniency has not been an effective means of rehabilitation for Ms Westin.

Another thing…DMD – did you honestly use the words “fascist bully boy”?

Indeed, well said

vg, in your line of work I suspect you often get introduced to people who get abused by their insane love of the world as it is right now and utter disbelief that anybody else would ever rip them off at the drop of a hat.

Nothing you say will change their perspective, hopefully they will merely get singed rather than burned badly when it happens to them.

DMD, the world is a hard, hard place. One day you will be introduced to the harsh side of humanity, and no end of pleading your insane dribble will change the events that will occur, infact, I’d recommend you don’t try to confuse people – it makes them edgy. Go with the flow, get out of the situation as soon as possible, and call the cops.

Once you’ve dealt with that, come back and we’ll discuss again your opinions about the lifecycle of a criminal in general.

“Maybe you have got a better idea of what goes on in prisons, VG”

Obviously

“They’re all bad, we’re all good”

I have at no stage said or intimated that

“and I’m awful suspcious of your picture of prisons as happy safety lands”

Pleaase point out where I said that. I stated that the drug use and violence in prison is over stated, over dramatised, and people’s opinions are moulded from watching too much TV. I never said that were safe, happy places…otherwise we’d all want to go

“You seem to dislike the mere thought of anyone thinking differently to you”

Far from it, I just enjoy it when they base their disagreement on something other that total bullshit.

“I don’t respect your opinion”

I respect yours. It’s stupid and illogical, and clearly based on a skewed sense of reality but I respect in nonetheless

“The only thing you seem to think validates your facist bully-boy rants is the fact that you have landed a job as a cop”

Grow the fuck up. My so called rants are validated by real life experience, in fact a ton of it, in this particular area. Yours is based on none whatsoever.

But please enlighten us, what do you think should happen to a person who is convicted of offences such as those described above? I’m guessing a really soft ‘love everyone’ option

Maybe you have got a better idea of what goes on in prisons, VG. But still, I kind of think the logic that you’re trying to sway me with is black and white bullshit. They’re all bad, we’re all good. They’re wastes of air, we’re not. The only thing you seem to think validates your facist bully-boy rants is the fact that you have landed a job as a cop. Now, before you start, I’ve got nothing against cops. I respect the job they do and I respect the fact the people (including you) have the guts to do it. I don’t respect your opinion, however.
I think there should be other options than just prison. You seem to think otherwise. I don’t agree with your logic, and I’m awful suspcious of your picture of prisons as happy safety lands. You seem to dislike the mere thought of anyone thinking differently to you.
Let’s just agree to disagree.

This has happened to my family twice. Both young boys who were killed. Both by drunk drivers. After the initial anger you realise that there is no point in pure vengance. An appropriate time in jail and some rehab for this girl may help but I doubt it. She flaunts her disrepect and stupidity. I have no idea how the courts could deal with her but locking her up and throwing away the key will not help.

“I think most people’s views of prisons, like mine, are made by what they’ve heard on news reports, on documentaries and on testimonies of people whom have been through the system.”

Mine are from experience of being inside them, working with people who have worked inside them, and dealing with their some time residents on a daily basis.

Testimonies my ass.

I’ve never said this before on this forum, but you are a dead set tool squeezer.

I’m not even going to bother debating you anymore, as clearly logic won’t sway you

I’m a little embarrassed to admit I’m starting to get rather fond of Amber, in an abstract sort of way, she’s been in my consciousness now for some time. She’s generated the type of debate that is essential to a healthy, functioning, democracy! Pity we don’t live in one!

DMD… prisons are for bad people remember? OFFENDERS go there for punishment and in some cases they have programs that may assist them later in life when they have served their time. In my experience it is also a place where OFFENDERS learn more about offending in different ways… not English lessons – sorry.

Can you honestly see Amber taking responsibility for her actions? She would have been pissed off that she was arrested for her breach cause she missed the family kitchen sink bucket bong in her Government funded house.

Can she bring back Xmas for family of the deceased? She should go to jail after spending time in remand for breaching her bail.

And VG, while I’m clogging up this discussion – I think most people’s views of prisons, like mine, are made by what they’ve heard on news reports, on documentaries and on testimonies of people whom have been through the system.
I don’t even watch Prison break.

Last one was addressed to VG by the way.
To seepi – I don’t need to write good engrish, I am using the internet.

Maybe I should adopt your lovely ‘good guys and bad guys’ world view – naah, i gave that one up when I grew out of watching transformers.

DMD goulburn gaol are often looking for English teachers if you want to do some good.

From my perspective here and now: if she killed a love one of mine I would want to see her rehabilitated so she could understand what she did.

You’re more tolerant than a lot of us, then.

I’d want her dead.

“Some quiet time to get bashed from cell to cell. Great work, mate”

The depth of your lack of knowledge in this field astounds me. A prison bashing isn’t a mandatory part of a sentence. It may or may not occur because of your actions inside. Most people inside a prison get belted because of their actions inside the gaol. If they choose to spend their time quietly then most of them will. If they come from some sort of ethnic or organised crime background they may become caught up in the ‘politics’ of prison so to speak.

Don’t think that watching Prison Break gives you some inside look into the Australian prison system. have you ever set foot in a gaol? I have, as well as working with at least half a dozen for Correctional officers.

You dead set have no idea of what you’re talking about. I can guarantee that for all your handsy holding leanings, when the real world slaps you in the face your current views may be slightly changed. But that will never happen to you while you live in an insulated bubble. Get out and live a little. Spend some time on the streets and speak to real people, not your Green Left weekly mates.

If a person killed a member of my family I would want prison, for their protection

repeatedly flounting bail conditions like this suggests a total indifference to the actions leading up a bail hearing, the courts who set those conditions and society who entrust the courts to uphold moral and ethical standards.

If she is found guilty, i can only hope that the courts show the same indifference when sentencing.

Sorry to hear that, SR. I cn’t honestly say what I’d do in that situation. All I can say now is that I’m not a big fan of the prison system and the problems it causes for the individual and society.
And Bonfire, you are exactly the kind of person that puts people like Amber in their place, by never giving them a second thought.

DMD – you are exactly the sort of person these losers love. they wil exploit you until you drop, then move on to another and never give you another thought.

From my perspective, I would want gaol time. (regardless of intent – killing someone is too major) Rehabilitation would also be good, but the effectiveness would depend on whether the individual was a willing participant.

I’m also unsure whether I would want a face to face. It would depend on how (honestly) remorseful the person is. (somehow I don’t see Amber being very convincing….)

And yes, this HAS happened/IS happening to us…..

From my perspective here and now: if she killed a love one of mine I would want to see her rehabilitated so she could understand what she did. of course, that’s never happened to me, so i can’t know what I would do. I can only speak from my experiences so far.

So she gets bashed in jail – who put her there? Her own bloody actions.

DMD, I suppose if she killed a loved one of yours unintentionally you wouldn’t want jail? Only if there was intent….

Some quiet time to get bashed from cell to cell. Great work, mate.

Had she been doing the right thing in the first place the woman wouldn’t be dead. Amber’s actions led to this. No one else’s.

Everyone is responsible for their actions. Whether they have a fucked up view of the world or not. The laws are there to protect society from harm and are not meant to be abused.

Nyssa

Maybe we should let up. Nothing more cruel than being involved in a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

DMD the only uniformed statements being made about crime are by yourself. An ideal way to shake up a persons view of a crime is to give them some quiet time to contemplate it, and protect us from them. That would be prison

Yeah but some do. And they’re the ones you gotta change.

And also, she didn’t intentionally kill this woman – allegedly. She was committing an offence that led to her death. And yes, she should be punished and made aware of her actions and the damage they caused. Not turned into a even bigger walking-danger machine.

Not all people with a fucked up view of the world break the law.

Nor do they spit in the face of it time and time again.

DMD five years does not equate to the seriousness of her actions. She took a life – allegedly or not. She should spend a minimum of 15yrs in jail and not be walking the streets atm.

And that was a personal opinion too. I’m no criminologist and I don’t pretend to be.

That’s a bit of an uniformed statement there, mate. I do know what crime is, having been a victim of it myself on several occasions (although not in the degree that the victim’s family in this case had to suffer). i understand it causes pain and loss, but I also understand that it is perpertrated by human beings with extremely fucked up views of the world. And I think steps should be taken to shake up the person’s views, not fuck them up further.

and again personal, not professional opinion

DMD

The problem is she killed someone……allegedly. Her narcotic foibles pale into insignificance. I bet you’re the type of person who has an excuse for everyone/everything.

Another Johnny Come Lately criminologist. Jim, but slightly more literate

DMD

Please tell me a situation that could possibly be worse than this one, where she killed someone…..allegedly? Maybe you should pop around to visit the victim’s family and tell them “it’s OK, it could have been worse”

You really should come out from behind those rosey coloured glasses and see the real world.

Its good to see you managed to pick up the obvious with respect to my occupation as well.

People like you wouldn’t know crime, and what it does to people, even if it bit you on the ass

off the streets for the next five years, as opposed to tackling the problem head on.

Well if Amber’s in jail it’s one less dickhead he’d have to deal with and maybe more than 1 life can be saved from her being off the streets.

Vg, you will give a rats because your apparently a cop and your buddies will have to deal with another mishap, perhaps even worse than this one.

I’m cautioning you that if you do it again I may be forced to caution you a 2nd time.

Have some balls, magistracy

Can anyone see an oxymoron in this:-

“Chief Magistrate Ron Cahill said today that any drug use was not tolerable… He continued her bail and adjourned the case until February 6.”

update – shes been back in court:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21032860-5005961,00.html

and…. shes still on the streets, no doubt smoking a cool refreshing doobie.

“Well, vg, what do you think will be the first thing Amber will do when she’s out of the slammer?”

Who gives a rats? Thats her choice

No from what we have seen in the past here in Canberra its a great place to commit crime. The only sentence I agree with lately is the 35 years or so the serial rapist got although it probably should have been life.

shauno: Her pot head family and friends must be pissed off that their smoking habits have been dragged through the media.

She’s just sworn under oath that her family were smoking large amounts of pot, which is, in this state, still illegal. She’s also presented physical evidence of drug use, which she says corroborates her story. I take it there will shortly be a police raid on her family’s house?

She’s out on $2000 bail after being involved in a fatal car accident, in front of a police station, while avoiding court for for an assault charge, while unlicensed, while driving a car with another car’s licence plates, while being chased by police, and having been previously convicted for not appearing in court.

Does this leniency apply to all Canberrans, or do I need to sort something out in advance?

I don’t think there’s anyone that accepts AJW’s continued freedom after her repeated bail breaches.

My whole ‘softhead’ involvement with this thread began due to people posting vague recollections and speculation on other areas of AJW’s life – most of which is more or less generally accepted and has been in the press already (ie the entire family being reefer addicts), but a lot of which isn’t.

My extremely limited understanding of the prison system in Australia prompted me to question whether or not prison was the most effective solution.

Assuming that those have weighed in so authoritatively are as well informed as they seem to contend, it seems my question has indeed been answered: Prison is definitely the solution, if for no other reason than the utter contempt she has shown the legal system so far.

I tend not to write people off quickly, and I simply think the only happy ending to this horrible situation is if AJW can be rehabilitated – if not for her sake, for her daughter’s.

Having just read quickly through the thread, I think that there are a few pertinent lines of thought:

Hasdrubhal is a legend;
Nyssa wants AJW to go to jail now;
A few people think jail is pretty much the same as AJW’s life on the outside right now;
Bonfire thinks a few people are softheads (I agree).

The point of contention regarding jail being the most appropriate avenue for delivery of rehabilitation and pennance to society is larger than the AJW case, and therefore need not be applied; it is the current mode of punishment – however draconian, therefore there’s not much that can be done unless there are a few members of the ACT Penal system as readers who have the capacity to make radical changes.

Personally, I would like to see periodic detention revitalised, get rid of the lefties running it and put in some real taskmasters. If that fails, make the work so unpleasant you don’t want to do it again, sifting through disposed nappies at Mugga Lane, pulling out scrap metals etc for recycling springs to mind.

That said, it’s for another argument.

I fail to see how AJW got bail after she was caught disregarding the bail, seems like she is attempting to make a parody of justice at which a Magistrate should be taking great offence, rather than giving her a wave goodbye and another crack at funniest home video footage.

DMD if she has any brain cells left, she’d get her arse into a job and start being a good role model for her baby.

Her decisions led her to being in this situation.

good to hear vg.
do they go thru some kind of detox when they go in, or is it just cold turkey?

DMD, you’re making a good argument for general prison reform, but in this case we’re talking about someone who’s apparently a lethal menace on the roads and has a record of ignoring efforts to ban her from them.

Four bail breaches later and one wonders where the public interest has gone.

Well, vg, what do you think will be the first thing Amber will do when she’s out of the slammer?

The funny thing about all this is. Her pot head family and friends must be pissed off that their smoking habits have been dragged through the media. hahah. Jeese they must be paroind now about getting busted and probably there suppler has distanced himself to lol.

There’s this famous book by Charles Murray called Losing Ground – a great read.

I can also apply economic principles to tell you why welfare is a really stupid idea – it distorts markets and incentives.

Where’s your proof, Ralph?

Or is that just based on the usual anti-welfare rhetoric?

I love the way people’s ideas of contemporary prisons in Australia are coloured by American television. Yes, there is violence inside, but drugs are rife? Absolute load of shit.

They exist in prisons, but are, by and large, significantly harder to come by than on the street. The heroin addicts that come out of prison significantly healthier than when they went in, with no desire to quit the drugs, is testament to that.

Sure most of them get straight back on it, but they aren’t ‘rife’ when they are inside

As long as we live in societies, we will have people of her ilk.

We had far fewer in the days before governments started dishing out welfare.

And Johnboy, the last bail condition she breached as for smoking weed, and well, she’s a pot-head.

but prisons don’t rehabilitate, not in most cases, they exclude people from society, yes, but they only make them worse when they come back.
Mr_Shab, I’m sure most criminals don’t realize the full extent of their actions, but Amber killed someone, albiet accidently, and that’s a pretty big thing even for a belco westie. I’m sure she understands she did something ultimately bad. Her life just needs to be swung in the right direction.
As for the family meeting face to face, I don’t know what the family in this case is like, but for some, the offender expressing remorse can provide some closure, as it did with the Clea Rose case.

True JB – my bad. She ALLEGEDLY committed a very serious offence.

Slow down people. She hasn’t been found guilty yet.

She has, however, breached her bail conditions four times, which makes one wonder why bother having them.

Ralph – how about we discuss how Ms Westin is the inevitable product of any state. As long as we live in societies, we will have people of her ilk.

Deadmandrinking – you’re assuming that the victim’s family would be willing to have a face to face meeting. If I was to come face to face with the sad little bong-head whose negligence killed my mother, all I would be considering would be “can I get over this table and smash her stupid face to a pulp before I’m restrained”. Knowing that, I think I would want to avoid such a meeting at all costs.

A lot of people who commit crime have a very juvenile mentality and little capacity for empathy with their victims. I suspect that Ms Westin is not much different. Especially with a mind dulled by drug and alcohol abuse.

BTW – what makes you think she is any more willing to co-operate now? She seems to have show a complete lack of personal responsibility, and has been indulged in this by the magistrate’s refusal to put her in remand.

prison is there for loads of reasons – to rehabilitate, punish and exclude from the public etc. Amber has proven that she is a danger to the community and for that reason (among others) she should be locked up.

So how about we now also discuss how Ms Westin is a sad product of the welfare state?

Punishment is supposed to be rehabilitation, like when you smack a child on the hand and tell them not to do it again.
Prisons don’t really do that.

Cameron & Deadmandrinking – Like I said, make every effort to rehabilitate, but some people you just can’t help.

Perhaps you’re forgetting that the role of gaol is to punish as well as to rehabilitate.

If Ms Westin goes to gaol, she probably will continue taking drugs as she has in the community. She is probably equally unlikely to rehabilitate in gaol as she is in the community.

However, regardless of her chances of rehabilitation, she has committed a serious offence and has breached her bail conditions. Like I said – gaol should punish as well as rehabilitate.

Well that just sucks, throw her in the can.

But seriously, I still think all other options should be explored. And I think she might be a bit more willing to co-operate now. She may have breached her conditions since, but that was only to feed her addiction. She was at court at least. I think a face to face meeting with the victims’ family would probably shake her up a bit more.

no – currently you can’t. The theory being that if people don’t want treatment, then the rehabilitation won’t be a success.

Rehab in Canberra is a joke. Usually they are so full that you can’t get in there unless you are court ordered to go, so those who genuinely want to give up (or think they do at that moment) can’t get in.

But I am fully in favour of a lock-up rehab facility.

And to Nyssa, I’m not ignoring what her actions caused, and I think she should face consequences for it. But prison isn’t going to solve the problem that took that innocent old lady’s life, it’s only going to suspend it for five years.

To mr_Shab I say I would agree with a custodial sentence, if prisons were conditioned to rehabilitate. Right now, they’re just rife with drugs and violence – which sounds a hell of a lot like Amber’s life so far.
There has got to be another way. I’m no law expert but does anyone know if you can force people to stay in rehab?

Hasdrubahl is my new favourite user.

Amber Jane Westin has no one to blame but herself.

She needs to be locked up and now.

Why isn’t she being made responsible for her actions?

Bugger the “poor her” mantra. She killed someone. She breached the conditions of bail (which should never have been given in the first place).

She needs to be in jail.

vg – mutley truncated my quote – I quite clearly referred to the death of the innocent woman as part of the tragedy.

Her life was lost, and several others are destroyed as a result.

Mr_Shab, I totally agree that the alleged offence very much warrants incarceration, especially combined with the various breaches of her bail. Again though the question is will incarceration achieve anything other than delay similar events for five years?

To Deadmandrinking, I say make every attempt to rehabilitate Ms Westin, but now is the time to do so within the prison system. By the sound of things, she has used her reasonable chances to rehabilitate in the community. I still don’t hold much hope that rehabilitation in prison will be that much more successful, though.

Besides the rehabilitation concerns, she has (allegedly) committed a very serious offence, and has breached her bail conditions. That seems to me to be a perfectly legitimate reason to enforce a custodial penalty.

Call me crazy chester,
but i would throw more than a rock at a bunch of journos if they followed me from the court house to my car.

In response to Mr_Shab, I say that 21 still means you’re young, and can be rehabilitated.

I hope they also ping her for not wearing her seatbelt while escaping in the ute from the ABC.

Quoting from a University of Texas essay on Breaker Morant:

“Rule 303” and its related rules have a patina of higher justice promptly, albeit terribly, executed. We should not be fooled. Human beings should be respectfully suspicious of their
motivations. Righteous vengeance is no justification for the immediate execution of another human being. Human beings should be diligently alert to human errors and human frailties. Certitude and passionate action are no comfort when doubt and deliberation are the better paths. Beneath the patina of justice is the hardened heart, beating to atavistic instincts that divide the world into them and us. They deserve death inflicted by us.

Link type thing here

The criminal justice system seems to give people many, many chances to do the right thing. Why, then, do we get bent out of shape when eventually it comes time to kick someone hard in the ass? Kick away.

right on vg

Out of interest, what is she being charged with? From memory, you can be convicted of murder due to intent to kill or cause grevious bodily harm, or due to reckless indifference to human life.

Is the latter being used by the DPP? Or are they going for a lesser charge?

FFS, the tragedy here was an innocent woman died. What happens to Westin is incidental

The tragedy here was … and the fact that Ms Westin’s baby will more than likely have her mother behind bars for the first stages of her life.

Probably the best thing that could happen to the poor kid.

Nyssa

Please stop making me agree with you

rule 303

Softhead? Ouch.

With the exception of that, all points are well taken.

The ideal solution to this problem is for far greater minds than mine.

She took someone’s life. I’m pretty sure that 5yrs is not enough for taking one life.

She shouldn’t get out for at least 15yrs. Drugged or not. Why isn’t she being made accountable for her actions? She failed 3 drug tests – a condition of her bail.

FFS. Lock her up.

Ideally, I think, he’s running on the theory she’d be spending 5 years out of the community, learning not to get high.

There’s an urgent interest in her spending 5 years out of the community. It’s a 5-years-from-now problem as to what she’s like when she comes back.

The whole “she’ll come out worse than when she went in” argument works for a kid doing something stupid once or twice (shoplifting, getting drunk and thumping someone), but when you’re dealing with someone with a substantial history of criminal behaviour it falls down.

Much as I’d like to think that everyone is inherently good, if sometimes misguided; the evidence says that “some people you just can’t reach” (to paraphrase). Sometimes you just have to gaol people not expecting to rehabilitate – only punish.

That’s not to say you shouldn’t make every attempt to rehabilitate – but I don’t hold out much hope for Ms Westin.

so shes in gaol for 5 years getting high, as opposed to 5 years on the streets ?

and this is a bad thing ?

you are a softhead.

why do we not have a combined jail-rehab option?

I think that certainly raises the issue of whether or not incarceration resembles rehabilitation on any level. I happen to agree with Deadmandrinking in that if Ms Westin goes to prison she will come out worse than when she went in.

What you have suggested is perhaps a more effective consequence of her actions, but would probably heave a justice-hungry community seething.

Which is why the suggestion to send her to the good men of Hasdrubahl’s home village (above), is a good one.

I may be the only person in canberra who thinks she probably shouldn’t be jailed but hell, I’m anonymous so screw you all.
I think she should be punished, yes. I think she should meet the victims family face-to-face and see the damage she’s done up front. She needs to understand that she carelessly took a human life, because right now, she probably doesn’t.
She’s a pothead. A bad one. Most potheads smoke to get away from reality. Amber, with all her bail-skippings and what-not, looked like she had a track record of that. And I bet if she goes to prison now she’ll spend the next two to five years or whatever getting high on whatever she can get her hands on when she’s not finding more reasons get away from the real world. When she gets out, she’ll be twice as fucked up and twice as much and unwitting menace to society.

I think the whole Amber Westin is a piece of trash thing has been done to death. Bottom line is very few people here know her, and those that do probably don’t have their facts straight either.

Let’s stick to debating the merits of her being out on bail after breaching the conditions so many times – a fact that I think is totally unacceptable.

Whether her family are white trash is completely irrelevant. The fact is that Ms Westin’s own mistakes are going to bite her back as soon as the case finishes up in court – I find it highly unlikely that she will escape without time behind bars.

I think she’s resigned to it, and her family probably is too.

The tragedy here was the loss of life that has already occurred, and the fact that Ms Westin’s baby will more than likely have her mother behind bars for the first stages of her life.

Back to what prompted me to post in the first place – I think VG is right about posting information that is freely available to the public, but let’s not put third hand information up here like it was gospel.

Allegations of sexual abuse and an abortion based on “I could be mistaken” and “there was perhaps” is just completely irresponsible, and THAT could wind you up in a lot of trouble.

Sorry, liable = libel

Especially the lady that she ran into and killed………allegedly

“Reading the comments above make sure you do not say (post) anything that could put you in contempt or otherwise expose yourselves to potential libel.”

What bollocks. Posting information freely available publically that is factual, i.e the number of court appearances isn’t liable, nor contemptuous. None of thos particular matters are sub judice, they are matters of public record

All human beings deserve some degree of respect.

Jey, that just shows maturity and respect even for someone [Amber] who doesn’t deserve it 🙂

It may not surprise me either. But there was some information there that I feel, imho, lumnock didnt’ have to make public knowledge.
I knew Amber too, and I have previously posted some info about her, but I also held back some info, thinking it wasn’t appropriate for me to share.

Jey it wouldn’t surprise me if it was used as a defence ploy during her “hearing” re: failing her drug tests.

lumnock, do you really think it was neccessary to divulge that much about her personal life?

I went to primary school and high school with Amber and anyone else who had done the same wouldn’t be suprised by anything that she has committed. Her whole family is comprised of white trash and in that respect I feel sorry for her. I don’ think anyone could grow up in the family surroundings she did and grow up normally. That said, you have to take responsibility of yourself and some stage I guess. I could be mistaken, but I recall her being sexually abused by her father pretty early and there was perhaps an abortion. Either way she is white trash, and so is her equally dodgy brother Jordan.

I’m sorry but the magistrate needs to be sacked. 3 times?

How many more bloody ‘chances’ does she need? Once is enough.

As for throwing a rock, had she actually hit someone and injured them the magistrate probably would have said “there, there, those naughty people shouldn’t have done that Amber”.

FFS, she’s killed someone with her incompetence as a human being. She should be in jail until her trial date and not free to do whatever she wants until then.

What did the magistrate say about her use of a bong to smoke tobacco? Something about the last shower. And as the magistrate said what kind of mother is she to have a baby raised in a house full of dope users?

Many lonely men in my home village (in north Africa) would think she looks quite attractive, and they value a woman who is not afraid to throw rocks. Perhaps we can send her there?

Presumption of innocence – yes. Presumption of being automatically entitled to bail – no.

She’s been given bail, AGAIN, after twice violating said bail. Surely bail is kinda pointless if you don’t enforce it occasionally?

Unfortunately it may appear obvious but under our judicial system an individual has the automatic presumption of innocence until proven guilty – regardless or not they were allegedly caught red-handed (after) committing the crime.

It sucks – but thats the law.

Reading the comments above make sure you do not say (post) anything that could put you in contempt or otherwise expose yourselves to potential libel.

Thanks Simbo

Riotrossco might want to learn what actually happens in the big, wide world outside the place that he logs on.

The Police have locked her up for a breach of bail twice. That makes 3 total arrests for this one incident. I would also surmise that on all 3 occasions bail was opposed, but granted by a Magistrate.

Please point out to me where the Police ‘incompetence’ has allowed this person to stay on the street.

When Police identify offenders to the point that an evidentiary burden is sustained then they take action. It is not the cops that ‘do nuffin’. Once they are in front of a Court its all up to the judiciary.

But I’m guessing you wouldn’t understand that

Oh, dear, rossco. You don’t know what vg does for a living, do you?

I’m going to be hiding behind a bunker for a while. VG hasn’t had a serious explosion at a newbie for at least a month now…

QUOTE

Magistrates here are too gutless to do anything. One breach of bail and straight in the pokey.

Another example of how life is different on planet Judiciary.

Don’t even get me started on the quality of person that is Ms. Westin!

Comment by vg — 6 January, 2007 @ 7:10 pm

END QUOTE

Lets not solely blame the Magistrates, it from the incompetence of the “Stan”hopeless top the the bottom of the rung, that being the police on the beat….

Completely and utterly useless at the moment, the lot of them, which in such allows oxygen theives like Westin stay on the street….

(including scum arsed little shit kids who vandalise other peoples property and get away with it because the cops “”Can’t do nuffin DuHaa””

(ending my axe to grind)

That is one nice ute, a hillbilly like her could make that a home. You could just see her sitting on the bonnet, rocking back and forth with a banjo in one hand and a crack pipe in the other.

Not her 1st time in front of a court Luca, far from it

Perhaps when/if she is convicted, Luca, you could contain your comments to the individual involved and not generalise about “females [who] generally regard the law as applying to everyone but them”.

Magistrates here are too gutless to do anything. One breach of bail and straight in the pokey.

Another example of how life is different on planet Judiciary.

Don’t even get me started on the quality of person that is Ms. Westin!

Bail conditions imposed decree non use of alcohol and illicit drugs. Surely the total disregard for these conditions allow us to comment on the case.

I imagine it would be similar to an AVO – applied even though no formal court case has decided the rights and wrongs of the case.

I want to say something horrible about her, like … females generally regard the law as applying to everyone but them and that I’m really pleased that the Canberra Times and RiotAct published shots of her mug (as part of the shaming process) but she’s yet to be convicted of her worst alleged offences so I’ll just bite my tongue!

I know from years of drug testing in the oil and gas industry that tests are very sophisticated and they reckon that its nearly impossible to get a significant positive test from passive smoking. That excuse has been tried a few times before lol