Trouble at the old Tent Embassy

Not the word. Your need to class people then apply derogatory comments to them is like the stuff that gets stuck to a wheel. Sticky stuff that just keeps on going around.

fgzk said :

You do see what TT99 is doing. ” As sad as it is, the lot of aboriginals before settlement wasn’t alot better than it is now, life was still nasty, brutish and short as hunter gatherers who hadn’t even invented the wheel.”

Its not sad, its just wrong. Id question your motives for saying something like this. In the age of the wheel, we just keep on going around. Same very old, nasty, brutish attitudes. There is a word for it.

Don’t be fooled, this isn’t a discussion about solutions.

I’m sorry, what am I doing? Let’s drop the innuendo on your part and bring it on. This sort of “cry racism” attitude is one of the reasons this hasn’t been fixed yet, since white middle class people feel touchy and guilty about interfering.

You do see what TT99 is doing. ” As sad as it is, the lot of aboriginals before settlement wasn’t alot better than it is now, life was still nasty, brutish and short as hunter gatherers who hadn’t even invented the wheel.”

Its not sad, its just wrong. Id question your motives for saying something like this. In the age of the wheel, we just keep on going around. Same very old, nasty, brutish attitudes. There is a word for it.

Don’t be fooled, this isn’t a discussion about solutions.

Stevian said :

LSWCHP said :

I wonder if there’s ever going to be any common ground here.

None of us has a real solution. That something we can all agree on. My ideal solution is to let indigenous communities fend for themselves. They did it for thousands of years before the whitefeller came and took their country away from them. But that’s unworkable for a variety of reasons. We’ve created a situation of indigenous disadvantage so we can’t really say ‘You’re on your own from here”. Additionally, even disadvantaged they are probably better off now than when they were nomadic hunter-gatherers live a subsistence lifestyle, they wouldn’t want to go back to how it was, even if it was possible.

I have a solution, I outlined most of it already. I find it appalling you would want to have them revert to tribalism in a modern day society like yours, but let’s say that is the best solution (as you suggest), I don’t see how anything “we’ve done” prevents that from happening. As sad as it is, the lot of aboriginals before settlement wasn’t alot better than it is now, life was still nasty, brutish and short as hunter gatherers who hadn’t even invented the wheel.

What alternative to employment are you suggesting?

LSWCHP said :

TruthTeller99 said :

Stevian said :

TruthTeller99 said :

force people to work, even if it’s something like a subsidised track labourer job, just so they can create a sense of self worth.

Yeah, because nothing builds self esteem like being put on a chain gang.

Are you really that deluded?

Let’s be serious about this. If you’re on centrelink benefits, and you don’t get a job after 2 years, they require you to do work of some kind to continue getting benefits, because it isn’t desirable to have people on them indefinitely.

Why should the same not apply to non-white people who live in remote communities? This isn’t about race, it’s about you giving up a certain degree of autonomy when you claim Government benefits. If they don’t want to do it, they can just stop accepting benefits, and find their own path through life. I just don’t see how indefinite unemployment in a destitute community is something we should be encouraging.

I really can’t see anything wrong with the things that TT99 is saying here. I’ve thought exactly the same things myself over the last few years as I’ve become more aware of what’s going on in this area.

And yet there are those in this forum who think these ideas are deluded. I wonder if there’s ever going to be any common ground here.

Employment is not the “only” way to contribute to a society. If you have raised your awareness, you will have some understanding that people who value family/community over individualism will have difficulty conforming to statutory imposed obligations……and let’s face it if you don’t conform you will either be deemed as non existent or ineligible for a basic income to help provide access to basic commodities like food, shelter, medical treatment and public transport. Self worth doesn’t necessarily come from compliance.

LSWCHP said :

I wonder if there’s ever going to be any common ground here.

None of us has a real solution. That something we can all agree on. My ideal solution is to let indigenous communities fend for themselves. They did it for thousands of years before the whitefeller came and took their country away from them. But that’s unworkable for a variety of reasons. We’ve created a situation of indigenous disadvantage so we can’t really say ‘You’re on your own from here”. Additionally, even disadvantaged they are probably better off now than when they were nomadic hunter-gatherers live a subsistence lifestyle, they wouldn’t want to go back to how it was, even if it was possible.

TruthTeller99 said :

Stevian said :

TruthTeller99 said :

force people to work, even if it’s something like a subsidised track labourer job, just so they can create a sense of self worth.

Yeah, because nothing builds self esteem like being put on a chain gang.

Are you really that deluded?

Let’s be serious about this. If you’re on centrelink benefits, and you don’t get a job after 2 years, they require you to do work of some kind to continue getting benefits, because it isn’t desirable to have people on them indefinitely.

Why should the same not apply to non-white people who live in remote communities? This isn’t about race, it’s about you giving up a certain degree of autonomy when you claim Government benefits. If they don’t want to do it, they can just stop accepting benefits, and find their own path through life. I just don’t see how indefinite unemployment in a destitute community is something we should be encouraging.

I really can’t see anything wrong with the things that TT99 is saying here. I’ve thought exactly the same things myself over the last few years as I’ve become more aware of what’s going on in this area.

And yet there are those in this forum who think these ideas are deluded. I wonder if there’s ever going to be any common ground here.

Stevian said :

Yeah, because nothing builds self esteem like being put on a chain gang.

What do you think military service is? Yet military personnel, even when conscripted, acquire pride in their service and unit. So no, this isn’t as dumb as you’d think. Frex, suppose a road into a settlement was built by the locals. Even if they were forced to build it, for the rest of their lives, they’ll be able to point to that road and say “we built that”. Ditto houses, halls, swimming pools and so forth.
It’s not an ideal solution, but let’s face it, we’re desperate here.

Stevian said :

TruthTeller99 said :

force people to work, even if it’s something like a subsidised track labourer job, just so they can create a sense of self worth.

Yeah, because nothing builds self esteem like being put on a chain gang.

Are you really that deluded?

Let’s be serious about this. If you’re on centrelink benefits, and you don’t get a job after 2 years, they require you to do work of some kind to continue getting benefits, because it isn’t desirable to have people on them indefinitely.

Why should the same not apply to non-white people who live in remote communities? This isn’t about race, it’s about you giving up a certain degree of autonomy when you claim Government benefits. If they don’t want to do it, they can just stop accepting benefits, and find their own path through life. I just don’t see how indefinite unemployment in a destitute community is something we should be encouraging.

TruthTeller99 said :

force people to work, even if it’s something like a subsidised track labourer job, just so they can create a sense of self worth.

Yeah, because nothing builds self esteem like being put on a chain gang.

Are you really that deluded?

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/stories/811455/class-act

Interesting take on education for Aboriginal kids. Doesn’t address all the issues by a long way, but still worth a look.

educated young peole will return because it is their home and its where their family and friends live

Yes, the Sydney Law Grad will go back to Nowhere Rock to practice a law that nobody there wants to recognise, and effectively doesn’t exist, or to teach law at the local school nobody attends. Your ideas smack of realism.

Rehab problems? There is no such thing in these places. The best rehab these places can get is to shut down liquor stores, or to severely limit the amount you can purchase with your welfare cheque, and force people to work, even if it’s something like a subsidised track labourer job, just so they can create a sense of self worth and industriousness in people there. Help is scrapping native title so people can start small businesses there. It’s getting rid of the permit system and bringing law and order to these places. That’s exactly what people opposing the intervention don’t want.

shadow boxer said :

TruthTeller99 said :

Alot of these remote communities exist merely because that is where aboriginal tribes originally lived, when they were hunter gatherers. It’s a naive middle class view to say “all we need is to educate some of them, and send them back, and then they’ll work it all out!”, it smacks of the very paternalism leftist critics like yourself complain about. Why would someone who has gotten out of that desert community, with no resources, no infrastructure, and no connection to the rest of Australia, to study say law at the University of Sydney, want to come back? Why would it be in their interests to come back? There is nothing there, and for some of these communities there never will be anything there… they were chosen as settlements in a time when the tribes who lived there survived on grubs and the occasional kangaroo. Maybe we shouldn’t be encouraging people to live in remote, backwards places with no resources and no hope of future development (and no amount of investment really changes that). If aboriginal people want to live like they did in pre-settlement times, let them set up an Indian style reservation like in the US if they must (though I have concerns about that too), but let’s have them embrace that culture properly, because they didn’t have welfare in pre-settlement times, or bottle shops, or government provided housing.

Some people will find me being accused of being a leftist critic amusing, educated young peole will return because it is their home and its where their family and friends live.

They may not live there but they will visit and provide a role model to the younger kids. Who knows they may even sponsor a couple of their nephews or teach a few people about basic hygene or put their Dad in rehab.

I cant see how education is a bad thing……

I find you being accused of being a ‘leftist critic’ absolutely f%^cking hilarious.

I think it puts the accuser into stark relief – anyone who accuses *you* of being a ‘leftist critic’ must be so far to the right that they’re about to fall off the edge of the world.

TruthTeller99 said :

Alot of these remote communities exist merely because that is where aboriginal tribes originally lived, when they were hunter gatherers. It’s a naive middle class view to say “all we need is to educate some of them, and send them back, and then they’ll work it all out!”, it smacks of the very paternalism leftist critics like yourself complain about. Why would someone who has gotten out of that desert community, with no resources, no infrastructure, and no connection to the rest of Australia, to study say law at the University of Sydney, want to come back? Why would it be in their interests to come back? There is nothing there, and for some of these communities there never will be anything there… they were chosen as settlements in a time when the tribes who lived there survived on grubs and the occasional kangaroo. Maybe we shouldn’t be encouraging people to live in remote, backwards places with no resources and no hope of future development (and no amount of investment really changes that). If aboriginal people want to live like they did in pre-settlement times, let them set up an Indian style reservation like in the US if they must (though I have concerns about that too), but let’s have them embrace that culture properly, because they didn’t have welfare in pre-settlement times, or bottle shops, or government provided housing.

Some people will find me being accused of being a leftist critic amusing, educated young peole will return because it is their home and its where their family and friends live.

They may not live there but they will visit and provide a role model to the younger kids. Who knows they may even sponsor a couple of their nephews or teach a few people about basic hygene or put their Dad in rehab.

I cant see how education is a bad thing……

krats said :

Aborigines…Tent Embassy…Shipping Containers…WHERE????

http://g.co/maps/h2vgd

What_the # 12, there have indeed been dreadful actions by the ‘dominant culture’, if you like, but there has also been dreadful inaction due to the fear of being seen to have ‘stolen’ the children. I call to mind a young girl who hailed from Dubbo and had three young children. She was out of it most of the time. There were no kin able to care for them, but DOCS were too afraid to remove them to safety. If the mother had been white, they would have been removed. Their likely fate keeps me awake at night.

We have now received a formal apology about the disastrous (though apparently well-meaning) policies of the past, including stolen generation.

While it is clearly time to accept and move on, I hazard that the residents at the tent embassy don’t have anywhere else to go after having been there for some years, and would therefore need practical assistance to relocate. I suggest that FAHCSIA personnel approach them with some options.

Aborigines…Tent Embassy…Shipping Containers…WHERE????

milkman said :

How do we lift Aboriginal Australia out of the mess its in??

As a society? Delegate power to the individuals on the ground; let the experts working in remote communities determine what to do in their community. Then in 5 years, wherever there’s been the most improvement, find out what they’ve done and use those tactics in areas which haven’t improved. And then understand that even then, there is only so much we can do *for* people, they need to be encouraged to fix their lives themselves (and this is incredibly difficult, when they have no rolemodels or past experiences of success).

As individuals though, learn about stories.
Every culture, nation, tribe has stories that guide individuals and give them a framework on how to live their lives. I don’t mean stories about unicorns or wars; consider the difference in attitude children will have, depending on whether they hear about their grandparents who moved to here to get work or avoid a war, compared to hearing about how uncle Freddie drank himself to death…but by doing so avoided the screaming agony of his rotting teeth.
Stories give children options. They also show how the world works.
A Balanda story that influences everything we do is Plato’s doctrine of The Forms: every chair is an image of Chair, every tree an image of Tree. It’s a strange story: even the many people who’ve never heard it are influenced us to assume that when they meet something new it will respond in the same way as similar things they met in the past. Our scientific laws are based on The Forms: without the story the idea that a rule in one place must also be the rule in every other place would not exist.

Tribal people usually do not have this story. So, for example, a first rate fisherman, who knows every current and rock in his waters, will when swept out of his territory often be helpless. How can he understand the new currents, when he does not a concept of “Current”? Everything he knows is a specific piece of knowledge, useless outside the framework of his territory.

Another tale: The Golden Rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.” No, it’s not universal. Also it’s dependant on people being (at some level) equal. A classic tale is of an Aborigine driving a truck having it get bogged it town – the locals help him get the truck out and moving. Then they see that there is another guy in the truck – his brother. His brother hasn’t come to his aid, because the kinship relationship doesn’t expect it! (And the driver didn’t ask, because it didn’t occur to him to do so).

A third: Do what you say. A doctor should not be smoking a cigarette while telling us that smoking is bad. Yet an Aboriginal nurse may give lectures on nutrition, which she ignores when working out food for her own family. No, she’s not stupid – she doesn’t have the stories that show her that she needs to do so; Jesus yelling at the Pharisees isn’t part of her worldview.

So, 3 stories – one from Philosophy, two from Religion – that help us every day, but don’t touch all too many Aborigines. But you know many, many stories. We need to share these stories to truly make a difference.

Alot of these remote communities exist merely because that is where aboriginal tribes originally lived, when they were hunter gatherers. It’s a naive middle class view to say “all we need is to educate some of them, and send them back, and then they’ll work it all out!”, it smacks of the very paternalism leftist critics like yourself complain about. Why would someone who has gotten out of that desert community, with no resources, no infrastructure, and no connection to the rest of Australia, to study say law at the University of Sydney, want to come back? Why would it be in their interests to come back? There is nothing there, and for some of these communities there never will be anything there… they were chosen as settlements in a time when the tribes who lived there survived on grubs and the occasional kangaroo. Maybe we shouldn’t be encouraging people to live in remote, backwards places with no resources and no hope of future development (and no amount of investment really changes that). If aboriginal people want to live like they did in pre-settlement times, let them set up an Indian style reservation like in the US if they must (though I have concerns about that too), but let’s have them embrace that culture properly, because they didn’t have welfare in pre-settlement times, or bottle shops, or government provided housing.

I have no ides what truthteller is suggesting but for those who wish to pursue real practical help try this link, they are doing wonderful work.

http://www.aief.com.au/

The more educated kids that return to the communities, the better they will be. Unfortunately it is a generational change that is required and it will take time..

The answer is not sponsoring children, or more money, it’s facing up to unpleasant truths. For instance, when the high court decided Mabo, rather than simply award the land on ordinary property laws (which would have been valid), they decided to invent a whole new category of land title, an action in part motivated by a desire to be culturally sensitive. Yet that very native title is a major cause of the current woes, because if “everyone owns the title, but nobody does” you can’t do anything with the land, you can’t start a business for instance, because you can’t use the land as collateral (this is the same reason the Zimbabwean banking system collapsed when all the land was confiscated by Mugabe, because all the collateral was gone and the loans were all defaulted on). It makes it even harder than usual to start a small business.

But the reality is some of these communities are not sustainable. You want to live in a remote rural community the way your ancestors? Fine, you do that, just don’t expect welfare payments to support that lifestyle. The only reason governments haven’t cut them off is because the don’t think it’s fair to the children, and because it’s unfeasible to have a separate legal system running parallel to normal laws, and ignoring them. The permit system was another problem, nepotism too (why do you think they got rid of ATSIC?), the minimum wage (as it invariably does) hurt the poorest citizens, in this case aboriginals. Listen to Noel Pearson, and stop rambling inarticulately about “white fellas and genocide!” If you’re spending over 50% of your welfare payments on alcohol when you have hungry children, maybe it should be rationed… and if you’re not, it won’t be.

fgzk said :

The old “solutions” diversion…..

Oldy but a goody

It’s not a diversion, it’s a serious question. I really think focussing on ways in which the balance could be redressed is likely to do more good than simply wallowing in self loathing. I’m not trying to excuse anything, I’m trying to think of ways to fix the problem. I’m hoping better minds than mine will join in.

I-filed said :

shadow boxer said :

I lived in Alice Springs for three years in the mid 90’s and my wife and I cried many times for the doomeed children with the distended stomachs symptomatic of malnutrition.

We have talked about it many times since and decided the answer revolves around education, there are some excellent charities now that sponsor kids through school, I highly recommend them if you feel motivated to help.

You are advocating taking them from their parents to give them a chance at life? That’s the Noel Pearson solution. Just how sticky is this mess the “Aboriginal Bureaucracy Industry” has inflicted on Australia? How embarrassing for this country that we have come to a situation where another Stolen Generation appears to be the only answer. I’d be interested to know how many Aborigines hark back to the exploitative stockman days as actually preferable to the welfare state of the last 20 years. At least they were on their country and practising their culture. Meanwhile the PMC arts bureaucrats sit on their hands, pretending that a handful of arts centres producing largely formulaic, “family assisted” pieces are going to fix Aborigines’ economic and other woes.

I understand the comparison but I think there is a difference between a mainstream modern boarding school during school term and the total removal to hostels of the old days.

I’ll dig up some links for you when I get a chance but most eventually return to their communities and try to help. Noel Pearson is a pretty genuine person from the little I have seen of him, you should read some of his speeches.

shadow boxer said :

I lived in Alice Springs for three years in the mid 90’s and my wife and I cried many times for the doomeed children with the distended stomachs symptomatic of malnutrition.

We have talked about it many times since and decided the answer revolves around education, there are some excellent charities now that sponsor kids through school, I highly recommend them if you feel motivated to help.

You are advocating taking them from their parents to give them a chance at life? That’s the Noel Pearson solution. Just how sticky is this mess the “Aboriginal Bureaucracy Industry” has inflicted on Australia? How embarrassing for this country that we have come to a situation where another Stolen Generation appears to be the only answer. I’d be interested to know how many Aborigines hark back to the exploitative stockman days as actually preferable to the welfare state of the last 20 years. At least they were on their country and practising their culture. Meanwhile the PMC arts bureaucrats sit on their hands, pretending that a handful of arts centres producing largely formulaic, “family assisted” pieces are going to fix Aborigines’ economic and other woes.

The old “solutions” diversion…..

Oldy but a goody

“If you’re not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”
? Malcolm X

milkman said :

mareva said :

I-filed said :

LSWCHP said :

My wife is deeply involved in the whitefella federal government side of the whole debacle. She constantly tells me stories of both profound disadvantage amongst aboriginal Australians, and of profound and profligate waste of money by agencies and individuals involved. And even things that she accepts as normal seem mind boogling to me, large groups of mainly well off white bureaucrats flying here and there to attend pointless meetings at great expense etc etc…

The whole situation is horrible.

I tire of hearing about ‘profound Aboriginal disadvantage”. It’s mostly self-inflicted. If you can afford ganja and goon, you can afford to feed your kids. Parents in slums in the Phillipines would give their right arm to have their children given the opportunity to go to school – opportunity that most Aborigines in remote communities spurn.
Urban Aborigines are in the same situation as whites, so there’s no extra disadvantage there, and remote Aborigines get an astonishing amount of financial help compared to poor whites. I’m sick of reading that expenditure on remote Aborigines is some $100,000 a head and there’s NOTHING to show for it. And I agree with Andrew Bolt, that Aboriginal privilege should extend to people brought up in an Aboriginal community, not just anyone who happens to have an Aboriginal ancestor, and who couldn’t possibly have experienced disadvantage through looking Aboriginal.
And before anyone jumps on me, yes, I have lived in remote Aboriginal communities.

Exactly what are you saying about Aboriginal people? If the $$$ is well-spent but just not being exploited by the recipients, what are you saying about them?

Come out and say it you racist piece of toss.

This situation has NOTHING to do with money. Anyone still harping on about that is bloody well braindead.

We illegally acquire sovereignty over this country and then commit genocide against the indigenous people for 200 years, white men raping black women, stealing black children from families, flooding communities with whitefella rubbish like disease and alcohol and drugs, we beat them down for 200 years and then turn around and say, “Gee what’s their damn problem?”

Give me a f*cking break. What hardship have you EVER lived through compared to Aboriginal Australia? White people living in the lap of luxury and declaring that Aboriginals are just not working hard enough, not loving their kids enough, not doing well enough to help themselves. Meanwhile you have had grown up in the land of opportunity.

We are all the goddamn same. If one group of us is doing incredibly poorly it’s because of institutional disadvantage. It’s the same everywhere in the bloody world. What are you people 5 years old. Makes me sick.

Understand you’re upset about this, but what solutions could you offer? What could any of us offer? I don’t think there’s much point wallowing in the negative (yes, we all know what’s happened), but how do actually address the problems? How do we lift Aboriginal Australia out of the mess its in??

I don’t have the solution but here are a few things that I do to offer a bit of support to the people who I think will be the way forward. I support Aboriginal artists like Gurrumul Yunupingu who is I think one of the most incredible recording artists we have in Australia today, not only musically but because of what he has achieved through adversity. I got a few of my friends on to him as well. I supported the Ngambra Court being set up here in the ACT by writing a submission to the ACT govt. It’s now known as the Galambany Court and has been operational for some time, it runs once a month at the Magis Court. This year I went along to a few of the events for NAIDOC week, including taking 2 of my (ultra conservative) friends to see Freedom Rides and we all sat there in tears but in equal parts inspired by the story of Aboriginal Australia for the last half a century.

I don’t have answers/solutions and I am a big believer in self-help. The best I think we as a community can do is at the very least stop being so critical/judgmental and downright racist about issues we have no grassroots understanding/experience of. it is a total disgrace. We have done enough, it is time to end all this misunderstanding and oppression and wake up and smell the roses. These tired old attitudes do not belong in Australia anymore and the one thing I can be grateful for is that soon those attitudes will literally die out. Bromberg J indicated as much when he found against Andrew Bolt last week.

When you look at the way in which indigenous culture is celebrated in NZ one can only hang their head in shame at the attitudes people still have in this country towards our indigenous people. I watch the NZ rugby team do the haka at the start of their matches and feel totally embarrassed by the experience of Australian indigenous people.

EvanJames said :

I-filed said :

This sort of attitude – this sort of whingeing recipe for perpetuating victimhood and poverty – is actually the threat to Aboriginal Australia.

+1. The Poor Bugger Me mentality is what’s holding many of them back, now. That, and the way that any Aboriginal who does try to climb out and succeed is often pulled back in by their family and so-called friends.

No sorry, if you are born into a remote communtiy to destitute and alcoholic parents who dont provide you basic nutrition or schooling you are disadvantaged. A 7 or 8 year old cant just walk to town, get a job and go to school.

You then add that these parents grew up in a profoundly racist Australia of 20 years ago when aborigines were simply not employed in real jobs and left on the margins of society to be exploited by our less scrupulous and you start to get the picture.

I lived in Alice Springs for three years in the mid 90’s and my wife and I cried many times for the doomeed children with the distended stomachs symptomatic of malnutrition.

We have talked about it many times since and decided the answer revolves around education, there are some excellent charities now that sponsor kids through school, I highly recommend them if you feel motivated to help.

EvanJames said :

I-filed said :

This sort of attitude – this sort of whingeing recipe for perpetuating victimhood and poverty – is actually the threat to Aboriginal Australia.

+1. The Poor Bugger Me mentality is what’s holding many of them back, now. That, and the way that any Aboriginal who does try to climb out and succeed is often pulled back in by their family and so-called friends.

+2. The real villians are the savage Aboriginal activists who poisoned mainstream attitudes towards Aborigines. These nasty characters aligned themselves with the hard Left and that is a recipe for failure in a basically conservative country like Australia.

I-filed said :

This sort of attitude – this sort of whingeing recipe for perpetuating victimhood and poverty – is actually the threat to Aboriginal Australia.

+1. The Poor Bugger Me mentality is what’s holding many of them back, now. That, and the way that any Aboriginal who does try to climb out and succeed is often pulled back in by their family and so-called friends.

mareva said :

I-filed said :

LSWCHP said :

My wife is deeply involved in the whitefella federal government side of the whole debacle. She constantly tells me stories of both profound disadvantage amongst aboriginal Australians, and of profound and profligate waste of money by agencies and individuals involved. And even things that she accepts as normal seem mind boogling to me, large groups of mainly well off white bureaucrats flying here and there to attend pointless meetings at great expense etc etc…

The whole situation is horrible.

I tire of hearing about ‘profound Aboriginal disadvantage”. It’s mostly self-inflicted. If you can afford ganja and goon, you can afford to feed your kids. Parents in slums in the Phillipines would give their right arm to have their children given the opportunity to go to school – opportunity that most Aborigines in remote communities spurn.
Urban Aborigines are in the same situation as whites, so there’s no extra disadvantage there, and remote Aborigines get an astonishing amount of financial help compared to poor whites. I’m sick of reading that expenditure on remote Aborigines is some $100,000 a head and there’s NOTHING to show for it. And I agree with Andrew Bolt, that Aboriginal privilege should extend to people brought up in an Aboriginal community, not just anyone who happens to have an Aboriginal ancestor, and who couldn’t possibly have experienced disadvantage through looking Aboriginal.
And before anyone jumps on me, yes, I have lived in remote Aboriginal communities.

Exactly what are you saying about Aboriginal people? If the $$$ is well-spent but just not being exploited by the recipients, what are you saying about them?

Come out and say it you racist piece of toss.

This situation has NOTHING to do with money. Anyone still harping on about that is bloody well braindead.

We illegally acquire sovereignty over this country and then commit genocide against the indigenous people for 200 years, white men raping black women, stealing black children from families, flooding communities with whitefella rubbish like disease and alcohol and drugs, we beat them down for 200 years and then turn around and say, “Gee what’s their damn problem?”

Give me a f*cking break. What hardship have you EVER lived through compared to Aboriginal Australia? White people living in the lap of luxury and declaring that Aboriginals are just not working hard enough, not loving their kids enough, not doing well enough to help themselves. Meanwhile you have had grown up in the land of opportunity.

We are all the goddamn same. If one group of us is doing incredibly poorly it’s because of institutional disadvantage. It’s the same everywhere in the bloody world. What are you people 5 years old. Makes me sick.

Understand you’re upset about this, but what solutions could you offer? What could any of us offer? I don’t think there’s much point wallowing in the negative (yes, we all know what’s happened), but how do actually address the problems? How do we lift Aboriginal Australia out of the mess its in??

mareva said :

We illegally acquire sovereignty over this country and then commit genocide against the indigenous people for 200 years, white men raping black women, stealing black children from families, flooding communities with whitefella rubbish like disease and alcohol and drugs, we beat them down for 200 years and then turn around and say, “Gee what’s their damn problem?”

Give me a f*cking break. .

This sort of attitude – this sort of whingeing recipe for perpetuating victimhood and poverty – is actually the threat to Aboriginal Australia.

I miss Mal Brough, the one minister who understood the problems of remote aboriginal communities and was willing to do something about them, in spite of PC objections. Interestingly, his half sister was aboriginal.

I-filed said :

LSWCHP said :

My wife is deeply involved in the whitefella federal government side of the whole debacle. She constantly tells me stories of both profound disadvantage amongst aboriginal Australians, and of profound and profligate waste of money by agencies and individuals involved. And even things that she accepts as normal seem mind boogling to me, large groups of mainly well off white bureaucrats flying here and there to attend pointless meetings at great expense etc etc…

The whole situation is horrible.

I tire of hearing about ‘profound Aboriginal disadvantage”. It’s mostly self-inflicted. If you can afford ganja and goon, you can afford to feed your kids. Parents in slums in the Phillipines would give their right arm to have their children given the opportunity to go to school – opportunity that most Aborigines in remote communities spurn.
Urban Aborigines are in the same situation as whites, so there’s no extra disadvantage there, and remote Aborigines get an astonishing amount of financial help compared to poor whites. I’m sick of reading that expenditure on remote Aborigines is some $100,000 a head and there’s NOTHING to show for it. And I agree with Andrew Bolt, that Aboriginal privilege should extend to people brought up in an Aboriginal community, not just anyone who happens to have an Aboriginal ancestor, and who couldn’t possibly have experienced disadvantage through looking Aboriginal.
And before anyone jumps on me, yes, I have lived in remote Aboriginal communities.

Exactly what are you saying about Aboriginal people? If the $$$ is well-spent but just not being exploited by the recipients, what are you saying about them? Come out and say it you racist piece of toss.

This situation has NOTHING to do with money. Anyone still harping on about that is bloody well braindead.

We illegally acquire sovereignty over this country and then commit genocide against the indigenous people for 200 years, white men raping black women, stealing black children from families, flooding communities with whitefella rubbish like disease and alcohol and drugs, we beat them down for 200 years and then turn around and say, “Gee what’s their damn problem?”

Give me a f*cking break. What hardship have you EVER lived through compared to Aboriginal Australia? White people living in the lap of luxury and declaring that Aboriginals are just not working hard enough, not loving their kids enough, not doing well enough to help themselves. Meanwhile you have had grown up in the land of opportunity.

We are all the goddamn same. If one group of us is doing incredibly poorly it’s because of institutional disadvantage. It’s the same everywhere in the bloody world. What are you people 5 years old. Makes me sick.

I take it this has been brought back because of the “Bolt perspective”. If anything RA proves his recent rant wrong. You can still state your opinions in the media regardless of fact or fiction. As the above proves.

Ifilled said “there’s NOTHING to show for it.” Shows that our “whitefellor” ways of always wanting to make profit from people or their land. Might be something in that don’t you think.

LSWCHP said :

My wife is deeply involved in the whitefella federal government side of the whole debacle. She constantly tells me stories of both profound disadvantage amongst aboriginal Australians, and of profound and profligate waste of money by agencies and individuals involved. And even things that she accepts as normal seem mind boogling to me, large groups of mainly well off white bureaucrats flying here and there to attend pointless meetings at great expense etc etc…

The whole situation is horrible.

I tire of hearing about ‘profound Aboriginal disadvantage”. It’s mostly self-inflicted. If you can afford ganja and goon, you can afford to feed your kids. Parents in slums in the Phillipines would give their right arm to have their children given the opportunity to go to school – opportunity that most Aborigines in remote communities spurn.
Urban Aborigines are in the same situation as whites, so there’s no extra disadvantage there, and remote Aborigines get an astonishing amount of financial help compared to poor whites. I’m sick of reading that expenditure on remote Aborigines is some $100,000 a head and there’s NOTHING to show for it. And I agree with Andrew Bolt, that Aboriginal privilege should extend to people brought up in an Aboriginal community, not just anyone who happens to have an Aboriginal ancestor, and who couldn’t possibly have experienced disadvantage through looking Aboriginal.
And before anyone jumps on me, yes, I have lived in remote Aboriginal communities.

My wife is deeply involved in the whitefella federal government side of the whole debacle. She constantly tells me stories of both profound disadvantage amongst aboriginal Australians, and of profound and profligate waste of money by agencies and individuals involved. And even things that she accepts as normal seem mind boogling to me, large groups of mainly well off white bureaucrats flying here and there to attend pointless meetings at great expense etc etc…

The whole situation is horrible.

I remember as a school student on a trip to Old Parliament House seeing the tent embassy, and being shocked at the condition it was in; the windows were cracked, the dilapidated floor littered with empty bottles of alcohol. I said afterwards we should build the aboriginal community a nicer embassy, and getting jumped on by some PC friends of mine… it’s a bizarre taboo, as though the current situation is a good image for aboriginal people. If they’re going for bitter irony though, they’re doing well.

The Traineediplomat said :

Wily_Bear said :

So you are in support of programs that ‘Reduce the Gap’ rather than the current programs in place to ‘Close the Gap’ ? Your comment is quite revealing

I stand corrected – I am in support of programs to Completely Closing the Gap… for all disadvantaged Australians.

Pedants amongst us could argue that Close the Gap could mean the same thing as Reduce.

However I concede the point.

Thanks for clarifying that traineediplomat. Nonetheless, I am happy to be outed as a pedant, particularly in relation to infant mortality or a 17 year gap in life expectancy. For the parent of an infant on the wrong end of these figures, second place really is the first loser.

As for the Aboriginal Tent Embassy, I don’t think we can underestimate the symbolic value of a visible presence highlighting the uncomfortable truth, that many Indigenous people remain as fringe dwellers to the decision making processes of this nation.

That said, perhaps traineediplomat can offer some training in diplomacy to it’s residents?

Wooster – You missed my point. I was trying to get people to stop copying and pasting entire “xxx said: blah, blah, blah, yyy said: blah, blah blah” comments in their post, prior to making the point they are trying to convey. If you look at this particular thread, all 3 pages of it, it could be edited down to maybe half of that by taking out the quoted italic text which repeats itself over and over and over again.
Keep it short and sweet, or I’ll just yawn my way past till I get to the good stuff.

wildturkeycanoe said :

To wooster and others who just quote stuff without proof reading….PLEASE don’t re-print the paragraphs of what has already been re-printed a dozen times, without making reference to exactly who you are trying to reply to. I am so confused as to who you are responding to and in what context, when there are two pages of quoted material to read through [again]. All this is doing is wasting precious space on the Riotact servers and wasting the time of anyone viewing the posts in this topic.
In short – extract the bit you want to refer to [be it a few lines or a paragraph on its own] and make your point, don’t copy and paste the entire history of this debate. I’m getting sick of it.

Thanks for the formatting tip there, duly disregarded.

Read the article cited in the earlier post or don’t respond to it. Seems simple enough. Or is one of them mighty difficult Quadrant reads without a clear-cut outcome a bit too hard for the hardcore ideologues out there?

EvanJames said :

Going on from what Whitelaughter wrote above, I’ve worked with many Aborigines over many years, hence my lack of “PC” grovelling. I don’t recall any who supported the mob at the tent embassy. Some shared some of their anger about some of the issues, but did not regard the embassy as representing anything but some ratbag element.

They all talk about what they’ve seen, the huge amounts of money wasted, the culture rotting from within, people getting away with crap because no one is game to question or censure for fear of copping a “racist” tag, and anyone who climbs out of the mess has people trying to pull them back down into it.

It’s no good to excuse negative behaviour with “they have many wrongs to be angry about”. Yes they do, but excusing negative, destructive actions just perpetuates their disadvantage and keeps them stuck in that place.

Enbabling “We’re Angry, Give Us Stuff” is doing damage.

Exactly the point. The PC crap is usually dished by people with little or no first hand experience. In then end, all that matters is solutions.

Wily_Bear said :

So you are in support of programs that ‘Reduce the Gap’ rather than the current programs in place to ‘Close the Gap’ ? Your comment is quite revealing

I stand corrected – I am in support of programs to Completely Closing the Gap… for all disadvantaged Australians. Pedants amongst us could argue that Close the Gap could mean the same thing as Reduce.

However I concede the point.

Ben_Dover said :

If you don’t think that this is a disgrace that must be addressed through the type of programs mentioned above, then you are profoundly racist.

If you think the life expectancy differential is only a matter of programs being provided, and money being thrown at the problem, I have a bridge for sale you may be interested in.

Would that be the Immigration Bridge? Could I have my name of the handrail? (She asked, naively.)

I agree that money spent is not the criterion by which we can measure success, but I am a little suspicious when people speak of money being ‘thrown at’ things, as if there is no reason behind the expenditure, but just some lunatic bag-man throwing wads up in the air like confetti at a wedding. There is a real need here.

Going on from what Whitelaughter wrote above, I’ve worked with many Aborigines over many years, hence my lack of “PC” grovelling. I don’t recall any who supported the mob at the tent embassy. Some shared some of their anger about some of the issues, but did not regard the embassy as representing anything but some ratbag element.

They all talk about what they’ve seen, the huge amounts of money wasted, the culture rotting from within, people getting away with crap because no one is game to question or censure for fear of copping a “racist” tag, and anyone who climbs out of the mess has people trying to pull them back down into it.

It’s no good to excuse negative behaviour with “they have many wrongs to be angry about”. Yes they do, but excusing negative, destructive actions just perpetuates their disadvantage and keeps them stuck in that place. Enbabling “We’re Angry, Give Us Stuff” is doing damage.

whitelaughter said :

– firstly: I am, by both Australian and tribal law, an Aborigine.
– Secondly: that stupid tent embassy disgusts me. They do not represent *me*, nor the majority of other Aborigines.
– Thirdly: their land? That’s *not* Wirradjuri land! The Wirradjuri never crossed the Molonglo, nor entered north Canberra: *their* corroborree ground was where the the Botanic gardens are now. The two Ngarigo tribes held the corroboree grounds on (what is now) Black Mountain Peninsula and the aptly named Corroboree Park. If they’d tried to construct that ’embassy’ 200 years ago they’d have got speared for their troubles…and according to the oral traditions, the Wirradjuri hired mercenaries from the Bathurst Mob to win their wars with the other tribes, stealing land in Canberry.
– Finally: yes, Aborigines probably have a life expectancy a decade less than other Australians. (Probably: http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-life-expectancy.html#life-expectancy-figures-wrong). Yes that is horrible. But a lot of that is due to this “respecting other cultures” crap! Throwing money at a problem doesn’t help, when many Aborigines can’t tell a doctor what is wrong with them because they don’t speak English, when girls can be married off at 13, when wifebashers and child molestors aren’t punished. We have been throwing money at the problem for decades, but you can’t have people living in a stone age culture and expect them to have Information Age lifespans.

Thanks for that, whitelaughter. It points out that attitudes and perspectives among Aborigines are as broad as those anywhere else (though it shouldn’t need pointing out). I can understand where the tent embassy people are coming from, but you’d have to say that it’s been one of the most singularly ineffective protests ever held. They’ve been there for a long time and they’ve achieved absolutely nothing of any practical value to the Aboriginal – or non Aboriginal – community. Perhaps it’s time to think about some potentially more effective tactics.

– firstly: I am, by both Australian and tribal law, an Aborigine.
– Secondly: that stupid tent embassy disgusts me. They do not represent *me*, nor the majority of other Aborigines.
– Thirdly: their land? That’s *not* Wirradjuri land! The Wirradjuri never crossed the Molonglo, nor entered north Canberra: *their* corroborree ground was where the the Botanic gardens are now. The two Ngarigo tribes held the corroboree grounds on (what is now) Black Mountain Peninsula and the aptly named Corroboree Park. If they’d tried to construct that ’embassy’ 200 years ago they’d have got speared for their troubles…and according to the oral traditions, the Wirradjuri hired mercenaries from the Bathurst Mob to win their wars with the other tribes, stealing land in Canberry.
– Finally: yes, Aborigines probably have a life expectancy a decade less than other Australians. (Probably: http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/health/aboriginal-life-expectancy.html#life-expectancy-figures-wrong). Yes that is horrible. But a lot of that is due to this “respecting other cultures” crap! Throwing money at a problem doesn’t help, when many Aborigines can’t tell a doctor what is wrong with them because they don’t speak English, when girls can be married off at 13, when wifebashers and child molestors aren’t punished. We have been throwing money at the problem for decades, but you can’t have people living in a stone age culture and expect them to have Information Age lifespans.

To wooster and others who just quote stuff without proof reading….PLEASE don’t re-print the paragraphs of what has already been re-printed a dozen times, without making reference to exactly who you are trying to reply to. I am so confused as to who you are responding to and in what context, when there are two pages of quoted material to read through [again]. All this is doing is wasting precious space on the Riotact servers and wasting the time of anyone viewing the posts in this topic.
In short – extract the bit you want to refer to [be it a few lines or a paragraph on its own] and make your point, don’t copy and paste the entire history of this debate. I’m getting sick of it.

poetix said :

wooster said :

Ben_Dover said :

An aboriginal child born in a country town for example, is at the same starting line as a white Australian, a European immigrant, a refugee from the Middle East or someone who moved here from Africa. They get the same health care, the same education, the same job opportunities. Oh, wait, the aboriginal gets extra assistance to go to school, assistance in finding a job, they can get assistance for being 6 weeks late in private rental, they can get assistance in buying a house with 97% lending, with only $1000 deposit and tailored payments to suit their income[South Australian initiative]. I mean, who is really disadvantaged here when everyone else in the population has to make their own way with only strict Centrelink criteria to adhere to for the smallest amounts of financial aid. Health service assistance is also available only to indigenous Australians, with billions being spent on programs.

ACT Health – Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
ACT Corrective Services – Indigenous Services …
Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs
Winnunga Nimmityjah – Aboriginal Health Service
Aboriginal Legal Service (NSW/ACT) Ltd – Canberra
Indigenous Educational and Student Support Services. The Yurauna Centre
http://www.naccho.org.au
Gugan Gulwan Youth Aboriginal Organisation
ACT Indigenous Education Consultative Body
Indigenous Sport Program
Aboriginal Hostels LTD
ACT Indigenous Arts Officers
ACT Indigenous Elected Body

– provides direct advice to the ACT Government.
Burrunju Aboriginal Corporation – provides health and wellbeing programs and promotes Aboriginal art.
Indigenous Community Liaison Officer – assists Indigenous people and organisations deal with the police and visa versa
Jabal Indigenous Higher Education Centre

– provides support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people studying at tertiary level at the Australian National University.
Journey of Healing ACT

– promotes understanding and healing between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians.
Munjuwa Aboriginal Corporation – a community service and housing cooperative for Indigenous people.
Ngunnawal Aboriginal Land Council – deals with land claims, undertakes consultancies for archaeological sites and sites of significance.
Ngunnawal Community Care – specialises in brokering home and community care services for Indigenous people in Queanbeyan, Yass, Bungendore and Braidwood
Ngunnawal Indigenous Higher Education Centre

– has been functioning since 1995 as the focal point for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders studying at the University of Canberra.
United Ngunnawal Elders Council

– advises the ACT Chief Minister on issues, policies and programs related to the needs of the Ngunnawal people.
Urayarra Indigenous Youth Skills and Education Program

– provides an education accredited program to year 10 for Indigenous youth.
Yurauna Centre

– provides support, advice and information on courses within CIT to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

I could go on, but you get my drift….

Although I dont necessarily agree with the entirety of this post, it reminds me of an interesting article I read a few months back.

I know many Rioters wouldnt exactly fall within the Quadrant demographic, this article is a good read if only for the empirical data on the huge amount of government funds and effort (in fact, a quasi industry for indigenous issues) expended:
http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2011/6/rivers-of-money-flow-into-the-sand

Ah Quadrant…The retirement resort of the right wing.

Check out the life expectancy of Aborigines next to that of white Australians. If you don’t think that this is a disgrace that must be addressed through the type of programs mentioned above, then you are profoundly racist.

Criticising the actions of one individual in relation to a group of tourists is one thing; questioning Aboriginal disadvantage is another.

Did you read the article, or just decide your conclusion beforehand? The issue is the efficacy of the programs in dealing with indigenous disadvantage.

If you don’t think that this is a disgrace that must be addressed through the type of programs mentioned above, then you are profoundly racist.

If you think the life expectancy differential is only a matter of programs being provided, and money being thrown at the problem, I have a bridge for sale you may be interested in.

I’m all for apologies, programs to ‘reduce the gap’ and reconciling ourselves with all races in Australia, but there has to be some ‘give’ on both sides. In the end, I believe that a 31 December or 30 June or whatever deadline should be made and then cut the power and other services to the area as it’s not a legal structure.

So you are in support of programs that ‘Reduce the Gap’ rather than the current programs in place to ‘Close the Gap’ ? Your comment is quite revealing

wooster said :

Ben_Dover said :

An aboriginal child born in a country town for example, is at the same starting line as a white Australian, a European immigrant, a refugee from the Middle East or someone who moved here from Africa. They get the same health care, the same education, the same job opportunities. Oh, wait, the aboriginal gets extra assistance to go to school, assistance in finding a job, they can get assistance for being 6 weeks late in private rental, they can get assistance in buying a house with 97% lending, with only $1000 deposit and tailored payments to suit their income[South Australian initiative]. I mean, who is really disadvantaged here when everyone else in the population has to make their own way with only strict Centrelink criteria to adhere to for the smallest amounts of financial aid. Health service assistance is also available only to indigenous Australians, with billions being spent on programs.

ACT Health – Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
ACT Corrective Services – Indigenous Services …
Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs
Winnunga Nimmityjah – Aboriginal Health Service
Aboriginal Legal Service (NSW/ACT) Ltd – Canberra
Indigenous Educational and Student Support Services. The Yurauna Centre
http://www.naccho.org.au
Gugan Gulwan Youth Aboriginal Organisation
ACT Indigenous Education Consultative Body
Indigenous Sport Program
Aboriginal Hostels LTD
ACT Indigenous Arts Officers
ACT Indigenous Elected Body

– provides direct advice to the ACT Government.
Burrunju Aboriginal Corporation – provides health and wellbeing programs and promotes Aboriginal art.
Indigenous Community Liaison Officer – assists Indigenous people and organisations deal with the police and visa versa
Jabal Indigenous Higher Education Centre

– provides support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people studying at tertiary level at the Australian National University.
Journey of Healing ACT

– promotes understanding and healing between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians.
Munjuwa Aboriginal Corporation – a community service and housing cooperative for Indigenous people.
Ngunnawal Aboriginal Land Council – deals with land claims, undertakes consultancies for archaeological sites and sites of significance.
Ngunnawal Community Care – specialises in brokering home and community care services for Indigenous people in Queanbeyan, Yass, Bungendore and Braidwood
Ngunnawal Indigenous Higher Education Centre

– has been functioning since 1995 as the focal point for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders studying at the University of Canberra.
United Ngunnawal Elders Council

– advises the ACT Chief Minister on issues, policies and programs related to the needs of the Ngunnawal people.
Urayarra Indigenous Youth Skills and Education Program

– provides an education accredited program to year 10 for Indigenous youth.
Yurauna Centre

– provides support, advice and information on courses within CIT to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

I could go on, but you get my drift….

Although I dont necessarily agree with the entirety of this post, it reminds me of an interesting article I read a few months back.

I know many Rioters wouldnt exactly fall within the Quadrant demographic, this article is a good read if only for the empirical data on the huge amount of government funds and effort (in fact, a quasi industry for indigenous issues) expended:
http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2011/6/rivers-of-money-flow-into-the-sand

Ah Quadrant…The retirement resort of the right wing.

Check out the life expectancy of Aborigines next to that of white Australians. If you don’t think that this is a disgrace that must be addressed through the type of programs mentioned above, then you are profoundly racist.

Criticising the actions of one individual in relation to a group of tourists is one thing; questioning Aboriginal disadvantage is another.

Ben_Dover said :

An aboriginal child born in a country town for example, is at the same starting line as a white Australian, a European immigrant, a refugee from the Middle East or someone who moved here from Africa. They get the same health care, the same education, the same job opportunities. Oh, wait, the aboriginal gets extra assistance to go to school, assistance in finding a job, they can get assistance for being 6 weeks late in private rental, they can get assistance in buying a house with 97% lending, with only $1000 deposit and tailored payments to suit their income[South Australian initiative]. I mean, who is really disadvantaged here when everyone else in the population has to make their own way with only strict Centrelink criteria to adhere to for the smallest amounts of financial aid. Health service assistance is also available only to indigenous Australians, with billions being spent on programs.

ACT Health – Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
ACT Corrective Services – Indigenous Services …
Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs
Winnunga Nimmityjah – Aboriginal Health Service
Aboriginal Legal Service (NSW/ACT) Ltd – Canberra
Indigenous Educational and Student Support Services. The Yurauna Centre
http://www.naccho.org.au
Gugan Gulwan Youth Aboriginal Organisation
ACT Indigenous Education Consultative Body
Indigenous Sport Program
Aboriginal Hostels LTD
ACT Indigenous Arts Officers
ACT Indigenous Elected Body

– provides direct advice to the ACT Government.
Burrunju Aboriginal Corporation – provides health and wellbeing programs and promotes Aboriginal art.
Indigenous Community Liaison Officer – assists Indigenous people and organisations deal with the police and visa versa
Jabal Indigenous Higher Education Centre

– provides support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people studying at tertiary level at the Australian National University.
Journey of Healing ACT

– promotes understanding and healing between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians.
Munjuwa Aboriginal Corporation – a community service and housing cooperative for Indigenous people.
Ngunnawal Aboriginal Land Council – deals with land claims, undertakes consultancies for archaeological sites and sites of significance.
Ngunnawal Community Care – specialises in brokering home and community care services for Indigenous people in Queanbeyan, Yass, Bungendore and Braidwood
Ngunnawal Indigenous Higher Education Centre

– has been functioning since 1995 as the focal point for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders studying at the University of Canberra.
United Ngunnawal Elders Council

– advises the ACT Chief Minister on issues, policies and programs related to the needs of the Ngunnawal people.
Urayarra Indigenous Youth Skills and Education Program

– provides an education accredited program to year 10 for Indigenous youth.
Yurauna Centre

– provides support, advice and information on courses within CIT to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

I could go on, but you get my drift….

Although I dont necessarily agree with the entirety of this post, it reminds me of an interesting article I read a few months back.

I know many Rioters wouldnt exactly fall within the Quadrant demographic, this article is a good read if only for the empirical data on the huge amount of government funds and effort (in fact, a quasi industry for indigenous issues) expended:
http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2011/6/rivers-of-money-flow-into-the-sand

Man I don’t go on and on about how the French invaded my ancestors home country and assimilated. I am actually thinking about learning French because I think there is a bit of that now in my blood that I admire.

It’s all our land now and I am an aboriginal too because I was born here. Time to move on and make our great country GREATER. We have the potential to become a great and benevolent empire one day and I truly believe that.

The Traineediplomat said :

made and then cut the power and other services to the area as it’s not a legal structure.

wait, they have mains electricity there? no wonder they won’t move on.

The Traineediplomat said :

Someonesmother said :

I wonder how many commenters know where their great grandmothers were born and where they lived?

Millfield, NSW
Greta, NSW
Mossvale, NSW
Bathurst, NSW

Now for the question at hand, I would be happy to see a permanent structure / educational facility built on the site and remove all the ramshackleness. Yes I like things to be tidy. It annoys me that some at the site claim it as a residential address and ‘get welfare’ etc. I wouldn’t think that it would be zoned as a residential area under ACT Planning.

I’m all for apologies, programs to ‘reduce the gap’ and reconciling ourselves with all races in Australia, but there has to be some ‘give’ on both sides. In the end, I believe that a 31 December or 30 June or whatever deadline should be made and then cut the power and other services to the area as it’s not a legal structure.

Nice to see that you represent Australia like that Mate. Is that the sort of stuff you told the locals at Naru when you were posted there? I’m very dissapointed to have a racist represent me to other countries.

An aboriginal child born in a country town for example, is at the same starting line as a white Australian, a European immigrant, a refugee from the Middle East or someone who moved here from Africa. They get the same health care, the same education, the same job opportunities. Oh, wait, the aboriginal gets extra assistance to go to school, assistance in finding a job, they can get assistance for being 6 weeks late in private rental, they can get assistance in buying a house with 97% lending, with only $1000 deposit and tailored payments to suit their income[South Australian initiative]. I mean, who is really disadvantaged here when everyone else in the population has to make their own way with only strict Centrelink criteria to adhere to for the smallest amounts of financial aid. Health service assistance is also available only to indigenous Australians, with billions being spent on programs.

ACT Health – Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
ACT Corrective Services – Indigenous Services …
Housing, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs
Winnunga Nimmityjah – Aboriginal Health Service
Aboriginal Legal Service (NSW/ACT) Ltd – Canberra
Indigenous Educational and Student Support Services. The Yurauna Centre
http://www.naccho.org.au
Gugan Gulwan Youth Aboriginal Organisation
ACT Indigenous Education Consultative Body
Indigenous Sport Program
Aboriginal Hostels LTD
ACT Indigenous Arts Officers
ACT Indigenous Elected Body – provides direct advice to the ACT Government.
Burrunju Aboriginal Corporation – provides health and wellbeing programs and promotes Aboriginal art.
Indigenous Community Liaison Officer – assists Indigenous people and organisations deal with the police and visa versa
Jabal Indigenous Higher Education Centre – provides support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people studying at tertiary level at the Australian National University.
Journey of Healing ACT – promotes understanding and healing between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians.
Munjuwa Aboriginal Corporation – a community service and housing cooperative for Indigenous people.
Ngunnawal Aboriginal Land Council – deals with land claims, undertakes consultancies for archaeological sites and sites of significance.
Ngunnawal Community Care – specialises in brokering home and community care services for Indigenous people in Queanbeyan, Yass, Bungendore and Braidwood
Ngunnawal Indigenous Higher Education Centre – has been functioning since 1995 as the focal point for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders studying at the University of Canberra.
United Ngunnawal Elders Council – advises the ACT Chief Minister on issues, policies and programs related to the needs of the Ngunnawal people.
Urayarra Indigenous Youth Skills and Education Program – provides an education accredited program to year 10 for Indigenous youth.
Yurauna Centre – provides support, advice and information on courses within CIT to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.

I could go on, but you get my drift….

I’m actually completely sympathetic to the tent embassy and it’s ideals, however, refer to whites as ‘gubs’ is no different to whites calling blacks ‘coons’ or something equally as bad.

Both are reprehensible.

I couldn’t disagree more.

There’s nothing offensive about it. As I understand it, “gub” (short for “gubba”?) is simply a word in a particular language for whitefella. Taking offence at intrinsically inoffensive terms – blackfella, whitefella, abo, whitey, etc. does more harm than good. When we can use those to each other without giving or taking offence we’ll have moved a long way towards real reconciliation.

Jethro – “Aboriginal kids born today are starting out from so far behind that it will take a huge effort on our entire nation’s behalf for them to simply catch up”
An aboriginal child born in a country town for example, is at the same starting line as a white Australian, a European immigrant, a refugee from the Middle East or someone who moved here from Africa. They get the same health care, the same education, the same job opportunities. Oh, wait, the aboriginal gets extra assistance to go to school, assistance in finding a job, they can get assistance for being 6 weeks late in private rental, they can get assistance in buying a house with 97% lending, with only $1000 deposit and tailored payments to suit their income[South Australian initiative]. I mean, who is really disadvantaged here when everyone else in the population has to make their own way with only strict Centrelink criteria to adhere to for the smallest amounts of financial aid. Health service assistance is also available only to indigenous Australians, with billions being spent on programs. What does an average white male/female get? A whopping $1000 Medicare levy at the end of every financial year, whether they went to the doctor or not.
If you are comparing the gap in standard of living of those who reside in remote areas of the Northern Territory and those in the inner Sydney suburbs, it’s apples and oranges. See how well an American migrant would hold up 200km from Alice Springs. I bet their living standards would be on par with the indigenous community, but he wouldn’t be considered as disadvantaged at all, merely dumb enough to move to a location that is near uninhabitable.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Jethro said :

milkman said :

This thread, however, is about the tent embassy, and my point has consistently been that one of the reasons it exists is to raise awareness of the fact that Aboriginal people are not currently sharing the benefits of Australia’s wealth, and that if all Australians were to get on board and start demanding that the current situation changes, something might actually be done. As it is, the issue isn’t important, so there is no incentive to try to truly overcome the problems that exist.

From this I gather that we aren’t sharing the profits of what the land is producing to the aborigines. Let me ask you this, how much have they contributed to the mining, exploitation or otherwise of the land in question? How much wealth would they have if the land had been left well alone? Absolutely none! Contributing to something that creates wealth results in returns. Sitting on your A$$ and doing nothing but moaning about how bad things are does nothing but make everyone stick their nose up in disgust.
So, if the argument is that their forefathers “owned” the land centuries ago and now they [the descendants] deserve something from the profits that others have made, I put it to you – can I as a descendant of a Scandinavian country go back there and claim for some compensation for the raping and pillaging of the country MY great grandfather lived upon?? NOT a chance in hell.
If I were to make a claim of Sovereignty there I’d be laughed out of the country.
Yet, we see people in this disgrace to our capital city that sometimes resembles the back of Revolve, with one tenth of their blood containing aboriginal DNA, wanting nothing more than money handouts. We have said we’re sorry, we have government departments dedicated to the welfare of aboriginals, to their art, to the preservation of their languages and culture…
What exactly do they want???? If someone can tell me in ten words or less and it makes logical, ethical or moral sense, I will reconsider my point of view.

They want you to understand the fact that the last 223 years is more complex than that and that 223 years of dispossession, government policy and marginalisation mean that Aboriginal kids born today are starting out from so far behind that it will take a huge effort on our entire nation’s behalf for them to simply catch up.

Sorry, that wasn’t 10 words, but I’m sure you get the gist.

Jethro said :

milkman said :

I often hear highly emotional diatribes about how hard done by Aborgines are, and that’s fair enough, but what I’m more interested in is solutions. Too often the people sprouting off have no solutions to offer.

Australia is what it is, and like many countries has high and low points in its history. The realm question, I think, is what can be done to overcome ‘Aboriginal disadvantage (if such a thing even exists – it look a lot more like poverty disadvantage to me), and what each party needs to do to make it happen.

I don’t think there is an easy solution. Certainly, Noel Pearson’s belief in personal responsibility has to come into play and I don’t think anyone could say I have ever said otherwise.

This thread, however, is about the tent embassy, and my point has consistently been that one of the reasons it exists is to raise awareness of the fact that Aboriginal people are not currently sharing the benefits of Australia’s wealth, and that if all Australians were to get on board and start demanding that the current situation changes, something might actually be done. As it is, the issue isn’t important, so there is no incentive to try to truly overcome the problems that exist.

Having the tent embassy raise awareness is great, no worries. But raising awareness doesn’t seem to be actually achieving much. Australians, I think, know that Aborigines typically live at lower socioeconomic levels and have more health problems. Demanding the government fix this is, again, fine, but what would you have them actually do? I don’t think there’s a simple solution, but we need more thinking and action and less emotional noise.

Frankly, I think there are solutions, but many people won’t like them. The question we have to ask is whether such solutions would be justified if the end result was significant improvement in Aboriginal health and living standards.

“I wonder how many commenters know where their great grandmothers were born and where they lived?”

Great grandmother? England.

Great grandfather? Jamaica. Yes, he was the post master general of Jamaica.

Sadly, I’m short and can’t bowl fast… 🙂

Is your name Gladstone Small?

Jethro said :

Maybe we should send them back to where they came from?

maybe they should get on with their lives.

Jethro said :

milkman said :

This thread, however, is about the tent embassy, and my point has consistently been that one of the reasons it exists is to raise awareness of the fact that Aboriginal people are not currently sharing the benefits of Australia’s wealth, and that if all Australians were to get on board and start demanding that the current situation changes, something might actually be done. As it is, the issue isn’t important, so there is no incentive to try to truly overcome the problems that exist.

From this I gather that we aren’t sharing the profits of what the land is producing to the aborigines. Let me ask you this, how much have they contributed to the mining, exploitation or otherwise of the land in question? How much wealth would they have if the land had been left well alone? Absolutely none! Contributing to something that creates wealth results in returns. Sitting on your A$$ and doing nothing but moaning about how bad things are does nothing but make everyone stick their nose up in disgust.
So, if the argument is that their forefathers “owned” the land centuries ago and now they [the descendants] deserve something from the profits that others have made, I put it to you – can I as a descendant of a Scandinavian country go back there and claim for some compensation for the raping and pillaging of the country MY great grandfather lived upon?? NOT a chance in hell.
If I were to make a claim of Sovereignty there I’d be laughed out of the country.
Yet, we see people in this disgrace to our capital city that sometimes resembles the back of Revolve, with one tenth of their blood containing aboriginal DNA, wanting nothing more than money handouts. We have said we’re sorry, we have government departments dedicated to the welfare of aboriginals, to their art, to the preservation of their languages and culture…
What exactly do they want???? If someone can tell me in ten words or less and it makes logical, ethical or moral sense, I will reconsider my point of view.

To the average Canberran who doesn’t usually go anywhere near Old Parliament House, I’d imagine the tent embassy is a case of out of sight, out of mind. I think most people would say ”oh is that still there? I thought it got taken away years ago”.

As to its popularity, it’s probably a 50/50 divide as to whether it should stay or go.

That young tourist will have something to talk about that none of his colleagues experienced. It’ll probably make a good story at his local.

milkman said :

I often hear highly emotional diatribes about how hard done by Aborgines are, and that’s fair enough, but what I’m more interested in is solutions. Too often the people sprouting off have no solutions to offer.

Australia is what it is, and like many countries has high and low points in its history. The realm question, I think, is what can be done to overcome ‘Aboriginal disadvantage (if such a thing even exists – it look a lot more like poverty disadvantage to me), and what each party needs to do to make it happen.

I don’t think there is an easy solution. Certainly, Noel Pearson’s belief in personal responsibility has to come into play and I don’t think anyone could say I have ever said otherwise.

This thread, however, is about the tent embassy, and my point has consistently been that one of the reasons it exists is to raise awareness of the fact that Aboriginal people are not currently sharing the benefits of Australia’s wealth, and that if all Australians were to get on board and start demanding that the current situation changes, something might actually be done. As it is, the issue isn’t important, so there is no incentive to try to truly overcome the problems that exist.

I often hear highly emotional diatribes about how hard done by Aborgines are, and that’s fair enough, but what I’m more interested in is solutions. Too often the people sprouting off have no solutions to offer.

Australia is what it is, and like many countries has high and low points in its history. The realm question, I think, is what can be done to overcome ‘Aboriginal disadvantage (if such a thing even exists – it look a lot more like poverty disadvantage to me), and what each party needs to do to make it happen.

Henry82 said :

implying the tent embassy is significant, lol.

It’s a dump, it’s an eyesore. It should be removed, with it’s occupants

Maybe we should send them back to where they came from?

implying the tent embassy is significant, lol.

It’s a dump, it’s an eyesore. It should be removed, with it’s occupants

Jethro said :

chewy14 said :

Lots of stuff

Teachers.. aboriginals… refugees… any other groups that piss you off?

Oh, and in answer to your post’s first question… New Zealand not only acknowledges their traditional inhabitants but guarantees them a quota of seats in parliament; the U.S.A has Native American nations that have relatively high levels of national sovereignty. Canada’s first people’s sovereignty is recognised by law.

Along with Australia, these three countries are pretty much the only new world counties to have been so dominated by Europeans that the indigenous people have become nothing but a tiny minority. All three of them are ahead of Australia in terms of the living standards and legal recognition of their indigenous people.

But I guess it is too much to ask that we make a token acknowledgement that this land once belonged to them.

Sorry for the 3-post nutjob, but that should have read “wildturkeycanoe said”

chewy14 said :

Aboriginal disadvantage has as much to do with me as any other groups disadvantage – very little.
And what does mining have to do with anything?

Certainly you are not to blame for Aboriginal disadvantage. But as a member of Australian society you are in a position to demand your government that it is reduced or removed. Aboriginal disadvantage is not a political hot-topic, so the government is not inclined to worry too much about it.

As for mining… as a (presumably) white Australian living in Canberra, you are one of the wealthiest people in the history of the world. Australia’s wealth is in no small part due to the mining boom that has been occurring for the past decade or so. This mining occurs on land that once belonged to Australia’s indigenous people. Often it occurs against their wishes, and sometimes its occurrence has serious negative impacts on indigenous well-being (such as the leaching in Kakadu of heavy metals such as uranium into waterways used by indigenous people for drinking and fishing).

So, if we are to go back to my original point a few posts back, too many Australians try to avoid feeling anything for Aboriginal Australians because they feel comfortable in the knowledge that the bad stuff all happened long ago and they have nothing to do with it, when in fact the bad stuff continues to occur while the current generation of Australians continue to turn a blind eye to it and, in some ways, continue to benefit from it.

chewy14 said :

Lots of stuff

Teachers.. aboriginals… refugees… any other groups that piss you off?

Oh, and in answer to your post’s first question… New Zealand not only acknowledges their traditional inhabitants but guarantees them a quota of seats in parliament; the U.S.A has Native American nations that have relatively high levels of national sovereignty. Canada’s first people’s sovereignty is recognised by law.

Along with Australia, these three countries are pretty much the only new world counties to have been so dominated by Europeans that the indigenous people have become nothing but a tiny minority. All three of them are ahead of Australia in terms of the living standards and legal recognition of their indigenous people.

But I guess it is too much to ask that we make a token acknowledgement that this land once belonged to them.

How many “western” countries in the world make a point of paying homage to the “traditional” owners of the land at – parliamentary occasions – sporting events – school assemblies – local government activities – cutting of ribbons – naming of places – etc, etc, etc??
Personally, I’m getting quite irritated that everything and everything has to recognise the original owners of the land. The Poms, Spanish, French, Dutch and many others went into the world to discover and conquer whoever they met. They introduced new ways, technologies, democracy and oppression. The people they overcame didn’t stand a chance, this I understand. Yes, old ways got lost and traditions couldn’t be maintained.
But, if we/they use things like the tent embassy as a tool only to attain more “compensation” for those that have had no bad-will done to them, it is no better than faking an injury to get worker’s comp. Slaughters and stolen generations have happened all over the world – just check out the Old Testament for evidence – and they probably will for many generations to come. This has been acknowledged by both the Australian government and under duress the present population of young Australians [not involved in any way with past atrocities]. When will it end? What exactly do they want.Sovereignty? They have it, the land is owned by them, isn’t it? If it is, well, the 20 odd million of us non-aboriginal people better pack up and leave. Won’t be long before the boat people take over. If it isn’t, what’s all the fuss about? Build a proper embassy with some of the $$ the government has been dishing out. Set up some areas where the traditional owners can live in the traditional ways [no assistance either monetary or otherwise from the rest of the country such as the native Americans have done]. Then there should be no problem.
I believe if the Aboriginal people want the land back, no questions asked, then they can have it without the strings attached. Millions of hectares of sunburned country, without the luxuries of modern technology. No phones, electricity, running water, sewerage, finance, economy, internet, supermarkets, drugs and alcohol. Not even the beach umbrella under which was begun the tent embassy. Tradition wouldn’t tolerate any of these. Tradition would bring them back to their roots, to the land they impress upon us so much is vital to their existence.
It is black and white, no shades of gray.

Jethro said :

Mysteryman said :

[
I’m sorry, are you actually suggesting that all us gubbahs are responsible for what happened? Even those of us who weren’t alive at the time?

By “the time” I assume you mean “right now”, considering that a good percentage of our indigenous people live in 3rd world conditions, which is reflected in the fact that they suffer from dramatically higher levels of infant mortality, higher levels of chronic disease, significantly lower life expectancies, etc.

Meanwhile, we as a nation are some of the richest people in the history of the world, thanks largely to the fact we dig up lots of valuable mineral from their traditional lands. But hey, Aboriginal disadvantage has nothing to do with you.

The tent embassy isn’t just about highlighting past injustices but present ones.

Aboriginal disadvantage has as much to do with me as any other groups disadvantage – very little.
And what does mining have to do with anything?

Mysteryman said :

[
I’m sorry, are you actually suggesting that all us gubbahs are responsible for what happened? Even those of us who weren’t alive at the time?

By “the time” I assume you mean “right now”, considering that a good percentage of our indigenous people live in 3rd world conditions, which is reflected in the fact that they suffer from dramatically higher levels of infant mortality, higher levels of chronic disease, significantly lower life expectancies, etc.

Meanwhile, we as a nation are some of the richest people in the history of the world, thanks largely to the fact we dig up lots of valuable mineral from their traditional lands. But hey, Aboriginal disadvantage has nothing to do with you.

The tent embassy isn’t just about highlighting past injustices but present ones.

Someonesmother said :

I wonder how many commenters know where their great grandmothers were born and where they lived?

Millfield, NSW
Greta, NSW
Mossvale, NSW
Bathurst, NSW

Now for the question at hand, I would be happy to see a permanent structure / educational facility built on the site and remove all the ramshackleness. Yes I like things to be tidy. It annoys me that some at the site claim it as a residential address and ‘get welfare’ etc. I wouldn’t think that it would be zoned as a residential area under ACT Planning.

I’m all for apologies, programs to ‘reduce the gap’ and reconciling ourselves with all races in Australia, but there has to be some ‘give’ on both sides. In the end, I believe that a 31 December or 30 June or whatever deadline should be made and then cut the power and other services to the area as it’s not a legal structure.

aceofspades said :

Mysteryman said :

I’m sorry, are you actually suggesting that all us gubbahs are responsible for what happened? Even those of us who weren’t alive at the time?

You would have to be fairly young not to be alive at the time. The stolen generation were still being taken into the 70s. Even if you were not it does not mean that you can ignore that these things ever happened and not be sympathetic. Many of the stolen generation are very much alive today.

I wasnt around in the 70s. Im sympathetic to all affected by a disgusting policy which took far too long to be repealed.

To the post regarding reconciliation place, the ‘sorry’ from KRudd and pre meeting ceremonies.

Token gestures and monuments from politicians 40 years down the track CLEARLY make up for the atrocities commited to the aborigines in the 60s and 70s. Its like Germany building a monument in Jerusalem. Thanks for the apology and the monument but what are you ACTUALLY DOING to help resolve issues aboriginals are facing?

As for razing the tent embassy. Its no different to brodburger from a zoning perspective. An unapproved squatter building on NCA land. Theyve bent over backwards to put Brod somewhere permanent. Same treatment for all too much to expect? Put the thing somewhere permanent where it isnt an eyesore.

Mysteryman said :

I’m sorry, are you actually suggesting that all us gubbahs are responsible for what happened? Even those of us who weren’t alive at the time?

You would have to be fairly young not to be alive at the time. The stolen generation were still being taken into the 70s. Even if you were not it does not mean that you can ignore that these things ever happened and not be sympathetic. Many of the stolen generation are very much alive today.

The_Bulldog said :

I’ve had a fair bit to do with the site over the previous five or six years, although less so in the last twelve months. Most of the tenants are fantastic but every so often you will get blow-ins who are overly militant, anti-social and just plain jerks. Incidentally, I have seen these blow-ins flouting the “dry camp” rule imposed by some of the original elders – much to the didain of the fair-dinkum activists.

I was told by someone in the know that the original tenants declared the site had “lost relevance” a number of years ago, however some of the later arrivals and other community members would no doubt disagree.

Personally I believe the space continues to promote inequity and is a bit of an eyesore. that said I believe it is important that Aboriginal issues continue to brought to the Australian public and our tourists.

Is the tent embassy the answer? I believe much more would be contributed if the space was developed into an educational centre staffed by volunteers who currently reside at the site. If the true intention is to raise awareness this should not present a problem – other than for those who use this as an outlet for antisocial behaviour, or those who take advantage of the low site fees, great outlook and free power.

This.
If the true purpose of the Tent embassy is to raise awareness of Aboriginal issues, then I think they’re failing miserably. A large proportion of people see it as an eyesore that, rather than showing the disadvantage than many Aboriginals face, actually makes it look like they get preferential treatment.
Would the government let anyone else protest there and camp? Provide power and toilet facilities? Of course they wouldn’t.
The original tent embassy may have had a legitimate purpose but I think it’s been lost along the way. I agree with Bulldog’s suggestion that they should set up an education centre on the site and let the residents tell their story to visitors.
The site as it is, provides too much opportunity for adverse reactions.

aceofspades said :

Someonesmother said :

Quietly sitting at home minding my own business when a group of people bust in and make me leave. I am not told anything, I am not told where I am going except to tell me that it is for my own good. I am fauna. I do not have any rights and I am taken hundreds of kilometers from the only home my ancestors have known and dumped in a place that is not in my heart. I cannot hunt for my food any more and must rely on handouts of those who have captured me, I starve.
I am dumped in with people who are not of my clan and who I don’t know. Some are our enemies, but we must stay, we are not allowed to leave, I am fauna. Some of our people got away before they came, but I will never see them again we are not allowed to leave. Our children are taken from us and we never see them again. Our family ties are lost and we will not be able to find them again in the generations to come. We are fauna and it is not worth recording our geneology.
Our culture, our clans and our land is gone and you wonder why we cry out.

Forget it mum, although some are sympathetic most of these gubbahs will not listen or understand. Probably guilt that makes them not want to be accountable. “It was not me…”, “why should I…”, “bulldoze into the lake…”, etc is all you will get.. As a gubbahigine I have tried before, even showed them Babakiueria.

I’m sorry, are you actually suggesting that all us gubbahs are responsible for what happened? Even those of us who weren’t alive at the time?

Forget it mum, although some are sympathetic most of these gubbahs will not listen or understand. Probably guilt that makes them not want to be accountable. “It was not me…”, “why should I…”, “bulldoze into the lake…”, etc is all you will get.. As a gubbahigine I have tried before, even showed them Babakiueria.

Great film. everyone should watch it.
I wonder how many commenters know where their great grandmothers were born and where they lived?

@ someonesmother – nicely said

@ aceofspades – I think you’d be surprised with the range of views amongst the RA community. I think most rioters would agree that the tent embassy highlights very important issues – but in the minds of the masses the methods, perceived inequity and regular incidents outweigh the benefits of said awareness.

I’ve had a fair bit to do with the site over the previous five or six years, although less so in the last twelve months. Most of the tenants are fantastic but every so often you will get blow-ins who are overly militant, anti-social and just plain jerks. Incidentally, I have seen these blow-ins flouting the “dry camp” rule imposed by some of the original elders – much to the didain of the fair-dinkum activists.

I was told by someone in the know that the original tenants declared the site had “lost relevance” a number of years ago, however some of the later arrivals and other community members would no doubt disagree.

Personally I believe the space continues to promote inequity and is a bit of an eyesore. that said I believe it is important that Aboriginal issues continue to brought to the Australian public and our tourists.

Is the tent embassy the answer? I believe much more would be contributed if the space was developed into an educational centre staffed by volunteers who currently reside at the site. If the true intention is to raise awareness this should not present a problem – other than for those who use this as an outlet for antisocial behaviour, or those who take advantage of the low site fees, great outlook and free power.

Someonesmother said :

Quietly sitting at home minding my own business when a group of people bust in and make me leave. I am not told anything, I am not told where I am going except to tell me that it is for my own good. I am fauna. I do not have any rights and I am taken hundreds of kilometers from the only home my ancestors have known and dumped in a place that is not in my heart. I cannot hunt for my food any more and must rely on handouts of those who have captured me, I starve.
I am dumped in with people who are not of my clan and who I don’t know. Some are our enemies, but we must stay, we are not allowed to leave, I am fauna. Some of our people got away before they came, but I will never see them again we are not allowed to leave. Our children are taken from us and we never see them again. Our family ties are lost and we will not be able to find them again in the generations to come. We are fauna and it is not worth recording our geneology.
Our culture, our clans and our land is gone and you wonder why we cry out.

Forget it mum, although some are sympathetic most of these gubbahs will not listen or understand. Probably guilt that makes them not want to be accountable. “It was not me…”, “why should I…”, “bulldoze into the lake…”, etc is all you will get.. As a gubbahigine I have tried before, even showed them Babakiueria.

Someonesmother said :

Quietly sitting at home minding my own business when a group of people bust in and make me leave. I am not told anything, I am not told where I am going except to tell me that it is for my own good. I am fauna. I do not have any rights and I am taken hundreds of kilometers from the only home my ancestors have known and dumped in a place that is not in my heart. I cannot hunt for my food any more and must rely on handouts of those who have captured me, I starve.
I am dumped in with people who are not of my clan and who I don’t know. Some are our enemies, but we must stay, we are not allowed to leave, I am fauna. Some of our people got away before they came, but I will never see them again we are not allowed to leave. Our children are taken from us and we never see them again. Our family ties are lost and we will not be able to find them again in the generations to come. We are fauna and it is not worth recording our geneology.
Our culture, our clans and our land is gone and you wonder why we cry out.

Not me pal. I’m on your side. I’m sure some here will be able to explain how it was perfectly justifiable.
Cap’n RAAF (et al.) you have the floor (This will be amusing)

Quietly sitting at home minding my own business when a group of people bust in and make me leave. I am not told anything, I am not told where I am going except to tell me that it is for my own good. I am fauna. I do not have any rights and I am taken hundreds of kilometers from the only home my ancestors have known and dumped in a place that is not in my heart. I cannot hunt for my food any more and must rely on handouts of those who have captured me, I starve.
I am dumped in with people who are not of my clan and who I don’t know. Some are our enemies, but we must stay, we are not allowed to leave, I am fauna. Some of our people got away before they came, but I will never see them again we are not allowed to leave. Our children are taken from us and we never see them again. Our family ties are lost and we will not be able to find them again in the generations to come. We are fauna and it is not worth recording our geneology.
Our culture, our clans and our land is gone and you wonder why we cry out.

I think, historically, the fear was that if they didn’t keep the place manned at all times, they would be cleared out during a quiet period.

Pitch a tent at the base of Uluru and see how quickly you are moved on……
Wonder what would have happened if the Convoy had decided to bring some trailers and pitch up in front of parliament house?
Are we all Australians governed by the same laws or not? Exceptions just highlight the differences.
I am all for their right to protest and believe they have plenty to protest about, but there is protesting and squatting.

johnboy said :

I think if you’re going to set up camp in the middle of the nation’s ceremonial areas it’s a good idea to accept not everyone will know what you’re about, and that in fact presents a great educational opportunity.

Yep, thats certainly an angle that I think shouldnt be lost on anyone. Putting aside peoples’ views on the embassy itself, it is a good opportunity to have a yarn and get the message across, especially to visitors.

I should also point out that although I don’t necessarily agree with the apologists, I am more uncomfortable with some of the more extreme right-wing views expressed here. I don’t think the Tent Embassy is really much of an imposition on anyone (let’s be fair about that), and ‘razing it’ or ‘pushing it into the the lake’ is really making a mountain out of a molehill.

I just think it would be nice if the residents (if they are actually permanent residents?) got their wits together and acted more ambassadorially.

The purpose of the tent embassy is two-fold.

Firstly, it exists as an act of protest – to remind people that Australia was first inhabited by its Aboriginal people and that these people have not exactly had the best of times since European colonisation. In this it succeeds – any visitors I have shown around Canberra have always commented on it and seen it as a positive way of reminding them that they are on Aboriginal land. The fact that it seems to annoy so many Canberrans also suggests that it is successful in achieving this aim, because the people it annoys are generally those who would rather forget altogether about the fact that Aboriginal people remain seriously disadvantaged in this country.

Secondly, as the name suggests, it should act as an embassy for Aboriginal Australians. The people who camp there should be ambassadors of their people. Generally this is successful. School groups regularly visit the campsite and are given a bit of a presentation. My aforementioned visitors have also often gone over for a chat and been impressed with what the people there have to say.

If the OP’s story is true, this is something the people camping at the tent embassy should be seriously concerned about, as it means that they are failing at their second objective. People behaving like this are doing nothing more than living up to the stereotype of the abusive Aboriginal, and are seriously undermining the purpose of the embassy.

One would hope that people like this are quickly told to leave and not come back.

longshanks said :

A container ship? .

shipping container 😛

Henry82 said :

I don’t mind people peacefully protesting, but residing permanently on the grass annoys me. I can’t believe they were able to get a container ship left there in the first place.

What can be done? A truck to remove the permanent structures and 5 police to pepper spray anyone holding a stick.

A container ship? Someone left a container ship on the lawn outside OPH? I didn’t realise that Lake Burley Griffin had been redeveloped into a deep water port…

Can’t the NCA shift the tent embassy to O’Malley or Yarralumla, where all the other embassies are?

Plenty of vacant land, they’d be able to mingle with other diplomats. Win win.

I don’t mind people peacefully protesting, but residing permanently on the grass annoys me. I can’t believe they were able to get a container ship left there in the first place.

What can be done? A truck to remove the permanent structures and 5 police to pepper spray anyone holding a stick.

Captain RAAF said :

I don’t think being a rude jerk to a bunch of people is necessary most of the time. But if a bunch of strangers started walking through my front yard all ladeeda-like, i’d probably have serious words with em too.

Hate to point it out but really, it’s now their backyard.

I think you mean it’s ‘not’ their back yard?

Bulldoze the lot into LBG, arrest anyone that obstructs the process and warn them that if they try and rebuild it or re-occupy the site, they’ll be shipped to an aboriginal commune out in the never-never!

Don’t hold back Cap. Tell us what you really think

staminaman62 said :

[As for the tent embassy, its time to move them on. Protesting is one thing but camping in the parliamentary triangle should either be legal for all Australians or illegal for all Australians (regardless of the colour of your skin).

Absolutely move them on, to the lawns of the real (it long enough we can stop calling it new) Parliament House.

Assuminf this actually happened, which I doubt

staminaman62 said :

Bluey said :

Raze is completely and forget it ever happened.

Thats what we do best in Australia.

If “that’s what we do best” then what is nearby Reconciliation Place? Chopped liver? What was the apology? Or perhap that never happened? I can hardly attend a meeting now that doesn’t begin with an acknowlegement of the traditional owners or open an email which dosen’t have a similar homily at the bottom. If you think Australia has forgotten our indigenous past I don’t know what planet you’re on, but it’s not Terra Australis.

As for the tent embassy, its time to move them on. Protesting is one thing but camping in the parliamentary triangle should either be legal for all Australians or illegal for all Australians (regardless of the colour of your skin).

+1 on all points.

I think if you’re going to set up camp in the middle of the nation’s ceremonial areas it’s a good idea to accept not everyone will know what you’re about, and that in fact presents a great educational opportunity.

“Apologists in our midst are welcome to canvass exactly how today’s (and previous scraps) are somehow justified by past misdeeds.”

Why do people act as if past misdeeds were committed only in 1788?

I worked with a guy who’s now gone on to head one of the ACT’s Aboriginal Legal Services. He told me about his experiences of having the police chase his family all across WA because they were trying to take him. His family was on the run for years because they didn’t want to give their child up to be taken. Eventually they caught up with him and took him. He’s only just recently found his family again. This issue still effects him today. Hardly past misdeeds mate. Try and walk a mile in someone elses shoes and see where the anger may come from.

I don’t think being a rude jerk to a bunch of people is necessary most of the time. But if a bunch of strangers started walking through my front yard all ladeeda-like, i’d probably have serious words with em too.

Hate to point it out but really, it’s now their backyard.

I think you mean it’s ‘not’ their back yard?

Bulldoze the lot into LBG, arrest anyone that obstructs the process and warn them that if they try and rebuild it or re-occupy the site, they’ll be shipped to an aboriginal commune out in the never-never!

I don’t think being a rude jerk to a bunch of people is necessary most of the time. But if a bunch of strangers started walking through my front yard all ladeeda-like, i’d probably have serious words with em too.

Hate to point it out but really, it’s now their backyard.

I think thats my point- if they consider themselves traditional owners and all.
Unless the point you are making is the distinction between front and backyard- then i don’t get it.

I always tend to walk around that area rather than traipse through it. But one time as I was passing by, a bloke who was frying some snags over his campfire called me over, said g’day and offered me some of his lunch. He was up for a chat. Nice bloke he was. And just the other day I saw another embassy resident chatting amiably with some tourists about what one can do with a few bits of wood and some ingenuity.

These people are just trouble-makers, they’re not there for any high ideological reasons. What they’ve done to that area is a disgrace, it’s a rubbish-dump now. Whatever point they think they’re making, what people see is a pretty spot defiled. I wish the government would get some guts and clear them out. If they want to make their point, why don’t they move up to the current parliament house? Yeah. Fat chance.

Bluey said :

Raze is completely and forget it ever happened.

Thats what we do best in Australia.

If “that’s what we do best” then what is nearby Reconciliation Place? Chopped liver? What was the apology? Or perhap that never happened? I can hardly attend a meeting now that doesn’t begin with an acknowlegement of the traditional owners or open an email which dosen’t have a similar homily at the bottom. If you think Australia has forgotten our indigenous past I don’t know what planet you’re on, but it’s not Terra Australis.

As for the tent embassy, its time to move them on. Protesting is one thing but camping in the parliamentary triangle should either be legal for all Australians or illegal for all Australians (regardless of the colour of your skin).

Ah wooster your inviting RA’s form of abusive, offensive, if not bigoted reaction. Shall we compare what is to come with what you saw.

Shouldn’t these bozos be reminded that they are only alloowed to keep up their alleged “protest” due to the good will of the Canberra community? That the “turning of a blind eye” can be stopped.

I don’t think being a rude jerk to a bunch of people is necessary most of the time. But if a bunch of strangers started walking through my front yard all ladeeda-like, i’d probably have serious words with em too.

Just sayin.

Wot Ho Bertie!

A cad is a cad and this particular piece of uncouthery should earn said cad a jolly good punch on the snoz.

My own experience with these chaps was quite the opposite. The fellow I met with came up to us and was, while strongly opinionated, very civil. I guess some ambassadors are better at this advocacy malarky than others. Diplomatic immunity aside, we might ask the chaps to give this fellow a sabbatical to work on his diplomatic skills.

Raze is completely and forget it ever happened.

Thats what we do best in Australia.