The light rail express rumbles on

Where light rail systems have been introduced, patronage has increased significantly.

In fact PT use overall increases, that includes the local bus services.

Several governments have tried to ‘fix’ the Canberra bus system, and it still doesnt deliver the service that proper mass transit public transport will. Its a simple factor related to volume.

220 people = 1 light rail vehicle, 3 buses, 110 cars.

With light rail as the mass transit backbone, integrated with suburban bus services, the frequency of your hourly bus could be increased, and the overall time taken to get from point a in the network to point b will reduce as well.

Why did monorails go the way of the dodo? Was it purely because of that Simpson’s episode?

competent people and competent drivers?

I would almost guarantee there would be drivers, i think there would be too much of a risk otherwise (on the open road). If they were going to make it computerized, they would implement something like an above-road monorail (which failed horrendously in Sydney)

Hhmmmm – not sure how they’ve managed it in other international cities then?!

I would almost guarantee there would be drivers, i think there would be too much of a risk otherwise (on the open road). If they were going to make it computerized, they would implement something like an above-road monorail (which failed horrendously in Sydney)

@Davo: most points good, but one overhead cost mentioned should not be required being an operator. I have taken public light rail in several countries that require no driver.

Luther – Banks to Moncrieff (52kms); Hornsby to Sutherland (54kms)
My points (about Canberra being too sparsely populated to support a rail network; and any talk about such by politicians is apple pie) stand.

tylersmayhem said :

Fix the buses first and then see what happens.

…and I’ll continue to harp – how will the buses improve if people continue to refuse to use them? You gotta meet them half way people!

I agree with you, but i’m still against the tram idea – new trams won’t ‘make’ people take public transport. Sure there might be an initial rise, but then it will die back again when the fad wears off. I’d rather have the money spent elsewhere then putting in massive amounts on an unnecessary piece of infrastructure.

tylersmayhem said :

Buses are cheaper than trams

…and where is the proof or figures on this? Are you talking about establishing the service, or running it?

In my opinion, probably both. Trams cost heaps for initial infrastructure – tracks, new lights, overhead cables, maintenance yards, re-training drivers (i suspect paid the same as a bus driver), over night yards etc etc . They both require maintenance, and a driver, insurance, etc etc. From what i can see, the buses are cheaper, unless you can see otherwise?

Aurelius: after reading your statement that ” Canberra is almost as big as Sydney, area-wise, but with less than a tenth of the population.”, I thought I’d better consult Wikipedia for some advice:

SYDNEY:
Population: 4 284 379
Area: 12144.6 km²
Density: 2058/km²

CANBERRA:
Population: 340,800
Area: 805.6 km²
Density: 1005/km²

I’m no mathemagician, but 800 is not nearly 12000.

PeterH, Brisbane has a similar network – trains in some areas, buses in others. But at the same time, they’ve got much higher density residential areas, very frequent services to most major areas, and very little city parking.
I am not anti-light rail or anti-public transport. But the reality is that in Canberra, it’s been done badly. Fixing the system we’ve got makes more sense than putting in a system to fail alongside the one we already have.
Bus stops are not appealing places in winter. Buses take too long and are too infrequent for people to want to use them. The timetables, routes, bus-stops & interchanges, fares, and just about every other aspect of the current system is seriously broken. If you turned every bus into a tram, and made them run on rails rather than tyres, that wont change.
Having said all that, where I live there is no public transport. So whether Canberra has trams, trains, buses or hired helicopters, I’ll still drive.

Aurelius said :

Pandy,
My point is that in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, people do not drive to work in the city because parking is over $20/day (if you can find it). Instead, they use public transport. Sure, plenty of people here whinge there is insufficient parking in Civic, but if this public transport network’s gunna ever work, there needs to be a lot less of it. And the parking that is there needs to be obscenely expensive.
Plus, anyone who currently travels to Civic outside peak hours (and the peaks are very short compared to any bigger cities) can easily make their way without much traffic and parking’s much less of an issue. Only when we have peak hours that go from sun-up to sundown in the CBD will the majority choose public transport.
Car is king in Canberra because we let it be. And because we, as a city, lack the balls to make the changes to make car NOT be king.
Fix your bus network. Laying rails wont solve anything unless the inherent planning issues are adjusted. Otherwise we’ll end up with a rail system that doesn’t work, alongside a bus system that doesn’t work.

Aurelius,

I catch the bus when I have meetings in the city. A light rail system would not change this for me.
a similar system to adelaide’s O-Bahn would be effective here.

It is the world’s fastest and longest guided busway, with a maximum permitted speed of 100 km/h (62 mph) and a length of 12 km (7.4 miles). It has three stations, Klemzig Station, Paradise Interchange, and Tea Tree Plaza Interchange at the Modbury end. Buses leave the track at Paradise or Tea Tree Plaza to continue services on normal roads, eliminating the need for passenger transfer. The JetBus service from Adelaide Airport uses the O-Bahn and continues to Elizabeth or Golden Grove.

considering that the only transport on the O-Bahn is a bus, this eliminated the delays caused by other traffic frequenting the same lanes.

imagine catching an o-bahn bus from gungahlin to tuggeranong, running on its own track and cutting a lot of time out of traffic lights etc. It could run parallel to the GDE, and just cross over the glenloch interchange, instead of getting bogged down by the traffic there.

on northbourne, it could replace the strip of trees with the killer magpies and allow the buses to operate in a similar manner to a tram way – the difference being that the buses could merge at either end of the track and change direction, by leaving the track – something a tram or light rail solution could not do.

Fix the buses first and then see what happens.

…and I’ll continue to harp – how will the buses improve if people continue to refuse to use them? You gotta meet them half way people!

Pandy,
My point is that in Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, people do not drive to work in the city because parking is over $20/day (if you can find it). Instead, they use public transport. Sure, plenty of people here whinge there is insufficient parking in Civic, but if this public transport network’s gunna ever work, there needs to be a lot less of it. And the parking that is there needs to be obscenely expensive.
Plus, anyone who currently travels to Civic outside peak hours (and the peaks are very short compared to any bigger cities) can easily make their way without much traffic and parking’s much less of an issue. Only when we have peak hours that go from sun-up to sundown in the CBD will the majority choose public transport.
Car is king in Canberra because we let it be. And because we, as a city, lack the balls to make the changes to make car NOT be king.
Fix your bus network. Laying rails wont solve anything unless the inherent planning issues are adjusted. Otherwise we’ll end up with a rail system that doesn’t work, alongside a bus system that doesn’t work.

Only $10 per day? For a multi-billion system. Make it $20 per day and charge Sydney rail fare prices would be more like it.

Anyone say AMP?

And to fix the public transport, what’s needed?
1. Throw a $10 tax per day on every carparking space within 3kms of City Hill
2. Put that money into the bus system
3. Make bus fares free
Now, see if you can get elected with that policy. It’ll lift public transport use, cut greenhouse gas emissions, and give the city the right mindset to use public transport.
Then, and only then, will your rail system have slightly more than a snowball’s chance in hell.
Until then, I smell pie.

At the present time, takes me 8-10 minutes to get to the Civic at anything outside peak times. Don’t think I will change to a tram just to go to Civic for the shopping experience.

Harvyk,
The car is king because we do not have the population densities to make public transport work. Canberra is almost as big as Sydney, area-wise, but with less than a tenth of the population.
And the real problem the rail proponents have is: if we can’t make a bus system work, why would a rail system work (with its enormously more expensive infrastructure)?

Pandy, if light rail (not melbourne trams) was properly introduced, it could have the potential to cut down on the time it takes to travel between the town centers (eg no waiting at traffic lights, no intersections etc…)

You may have no need to go down to tuggies to explore, but you no doubt have a need to travel into the city from time to time (even if you don’t work there), and there are people who do in fact go to all major shopping centers (Not me personally, as I don’t care much for shops, but I do have friends that do).

One of Canberra’s biggest problems is that car is king. Without a car you are screwed. Improvements need to be made. Using a train to cover the major routes allowing buses to then look after the suburbs makes sense. Also additional carriages can be added during peak periods, and carriages can be removed during day time periods, with no real additional staffing requirements.

Buses are cheaper than trams

…and where is the proof or figures on this? Are you talking about establishing the service, or running it?

@Piratemonkey: Car parking in the town centers is disappearing. Your proposal makes no sense. People would have to catch a bus to the town center and/or major trunk stop, wait around for a train and then travel to the where ever and probably transfer to another bus. Eat brekkie on these trams? Oh ACT Light Rail likes to tell you how full these trams run and in Melbourne the new trams have hardly any seats. Throw money at this project? err did anyone mention Canberra Airport today? Explore other town centres? I could drive to Tuggeranong in 20 minutes. Why would I, I can not think so, just more deserted malls and bogans. To catch a tram there would take what 90 minutes by the time I walked to the bus stop, interchanged for a tram and then travelled via Civic to get to Tuggers.

@Gungahlin Al: Are you a light rail supporter or a tram supporter? Did the meeting cover how the bus system would be improved for your Gungahlin residents to interchange with the trains/tram?

@Aurelius: So let me get this, if I live in a high density residential tower like being built on Benjamin Way, I could walk to work or ride to work?

For public transport to work in Canberra, you need higher density residential areas. To give the larger numbers of potential passengers. But try going along to any of the community council meetings and telling them they need 4-6 storey residential precincts. How many whingers do we hear about the residential tower in Woden? I hate to tell you, but we need a LOT of those such developments to create the concentrated demand for public transport infrastructure.
No government is going to fork out a few billion on a light rail system when there is plenty of evidence that public transport does not work in this city. And without the clusters of high density residential, it wont work.
So I refer you back to my comment on this thread @ number 3 – politicians talking about light rail during an election, without any rails in the ground, are just pissing wind.
It’s all pie, and Piratemonkey and others, you’re falling for it.

The entire ACT Light Rail Candidates event was captured on video… it will be up shortly… usual place http://canberravotes.com or alternatively on http://actlightrail.info

I did catch the last 45 mins or so. It was a good night – very interesting – wish I’d been able to attend properly.

Well Mael, I was present when he told GCC in April 2007 “they’ll never put rail lines down the middle of the most beautiful entrance to any city in Australia while I’m alive.”

But I have to say – he had a vastly different position tonight. He was on best behaviour and very apparently sincere about light rail. I had heard from others inside that there has been a seismic shift within ALP towards light rail, and it did seem very much so.

The Libs were prepared to throw barbs while not giving anything away on their own policy – we were told to wait “7 to 10 days” for their public transport policy to be released. So that should give us just a handful of days to actually read it…Are they concerned it won’t stand up to scrutiny? Or perhaps they want to announce it at the GCC Meet the Candidates night on 8 October? (plug plug)

But it was pretty much a big light rail love-in, with only Mark Parton voicing some concerns and to his credit prepared to admit as much. (He thinks the buses should be cranked up better first.) And the Motorists Party, if you take their no-show as an indication of their position on it…

The Greens were right across the issue as you would hope, and the Democrats had a well annunciated position too. But the surprise packet was Independent Adam Verwey. I didn’t take notes so can’t quote you anything other than “the vibe”. But mark my words – that young fellow has potential.

But Piratemonkey, “we” don’t want this.

barking toad said :

Buses are cheaper than trams and the current service is still crap.

agreed, i vote against the tram idea, its such a waste of money and infrastructure that would have no real benefit on Canberra (and they are noisier than buses).

If enough people want it, then isn’t it not relevant at all whether or not the Government of the day thinks it is feasible or not to implement it ?

I’m still wondering what Hargreaves is planning on doing in response to this since the raisin would have uttered ‘over my dead body’ in too many circles on the topic of light rail in Canberra by now.

@Aurelius, thats why we need to stand up and make sure the government knows we want this and show how good an idea it is, not sit around and go all glass is half empty. Hell if save the ridge whiners can get enough cash together to hold up the GDE for that long im sure ACT light rail could gather enough cash to get their own report on how beneficial such a project would be.

@tickboom, Action might be a complete and utter failure but the simple fact with civic’s and other areas expansion going to crush the current poorly designed roads we have demands another option. The business case for a train here is strong. We may not need it now but i guarentee in a few years we will. By then things will be 100 times harder and more expensive to build.

Canberra is designed well because of foward thinking like this. We need to continue the trend or end up like sydney and simply expecting canberra drivers to adjust to sydney esque conditions scares me. Scares me alot.

Stanhope must be very, very worried to take a step like this.

It’s pretty smart, though. If he does manage to form a government he’ll have a consultant’s report that says “Light rail affordable in Canberra? Sure – if you want to charge $150 a ride or close all the schools”.

If you think banks would throw money at public transport infrastructure in Canberra, then you need your head read.

Piratemonkey,
Without looking into this too deeply, I predict the biggest downside will be…… oh…. stab in the dark…… cost!
Yes, it’s a great idea. But like everything else with a big price tag in this country, the government will see the pricetag and then proceed to hide whatever recommendations they received in the nearest circular filing cabinet.

I don’t see how people can consider this a bad idea.

We have very defined town centres in canberra and if all those living around each one could at the very least park there and ride a non stop train to another town centre where they work there would be so many benefits.

The amount of traffic crossing town would be drmatically reduced.

Competition for parking in civic would be greatly reduced.

Buses could be removed from arterial roads and put in the suburbs where they are needed.

People would use much less fuel sprinting down the parkway/belconnen way then putting around civic to get in and get a park.

A train would be far more reliable then buses (in a place as simple as canberra anyway).

Those with no car who like urban living would be able to explore other town cetres much easier.

Riding and catching a train would make such physical exercise much more palatable for many living further out.

It is easier to add carrages to a train then lanes to an arterial road.

Hell right down to the fact you would be able to eat a takeaway brekkie from one station while reading the paper on the train when you would normally be stuck in traffic in your car.

The only down side is cost and canberra is a prime location to invest with our stable population of well paid public servants (civics recent/current development is a prime example). Big banks would rush to throw money at such an infastructure project in these times of economic turmoil.

Eactly what are the down sides of such a system?

I think that looking at the actual terms of reference for the business case would be illuminating.

ACT Light Rail have been calling for a fair and transparent terms of reference, looking at phased implementation of a light rail network, and a proposal for an initial light rail route.

To date the ACT Government has engaged in zero community consultation – although it lists that in its light rail task force proposal that the ACT Govt, Cons Council and CBC put together in July.

We have asked the Chief Ministers Office for a copy of the Terms of Reference, and that request has been passed to Minister Hargreaves office (although all info on Light Rail comes from the Chief Ministers media department).

ACT Light Rail has also asked about what form of community consultation that the ACT Government or their Light Rail Taskforce are planning. That request has also been passed to Minister Hargreaves office.

In this vacuum of public information, aside from press releases, and lack of community consultation – ACT Light Rail are making a submission this week to the ACT Government and TAMS. Our business case submission will include essential items which we feel need to be included. This is important since the Labor party have indicated they plan to hitup the Building Australia infrastructure fund for the money.

It will be interesting to see what happens to light rail in the next assembly. Im optimistic that it will survive the election cycle, especially if a minority government with responsible independents are elected.

I should also note that despite warm fuzzies directed privately to ACT Light Rail by the Liberal Party they have no policy on it to date, despite several candidates stating their support publically.

I will be asking the Liberals what their official position is at tonights public meeting.

regards

Damien Haas

Chair

ACT Light Rail

barking toad said :

Buses are cheaper than trams and the current service is still crap.

A plum job to PWC – is the mayor setting up post polly consultancy work?

Why can’t he go and work for gareth gareth at the UN and leave us alone!

because gareth gareth won’t have him. look at his track record with citizenship ceremonies…

Buses are cheaper than trams and the current service is still crap.

A plum job to PWC – is the mayor setting up post polly consultancy work?

Why can’t he go and work for gareth gareth at the UN and leave us alone!

This is an excellent announcement from the Chief Minister, and I hope that the terms of reference for the business case are made available to the public.

People who wish to ask questions to Assembly candidates regarding their Light Rail intentions are welcome to attend the ACT Light Rail ‘Meet the candidates’ meeting which is being held tonight (30 Sep) at Havelock House, 85 Northbourne Avenue. The meeting begins at 7.30PM and should run until 10PM.

Damien Haas

Chair

ACT Light Rail Coalition

And to quote from his press release – “! am extremely pleased to be able to announce that the ACT Government is moving ahead with its exploration of light rail and very much look forward to seeing the consultants’ analysis in a few weeks”

He may not be there in a few weeks!!! But maybe he will still enjoy reading it as a backbencher or ex-politician.

Morgan said :

The contract was awarded weeks ago.

Ah – so then he announces it in the middle of an election campaign weeks after the event. The cynicism is breathtaking.

And on the whole light rail issue I am yet to be convinced unless it is to cover the whole city and not just major ‘trunk’ routes.

Smells more like goosenberry pie to me!

I’m sorry, but does Canberra really need a light rail system? Not once have I been so stuck for transport (car, taxi, pushie, bus, FOOT(!)) that I’ve hoped for a train to come my way. The time you would spend waiting for a train from Belco to town would be better spent walking half way there.

aronde said :

How can he award a contract to PWC during ‘caretaker mode’? I am sure from my previous public service days you could not enter into any contracts etc and this one does not report until after the election according to the full release. Perhaps some current public servants can enlighten me.

The contract was awarded weeks ago.

Free mopeds. Enormous ziplines – flying foxes or whatever. Monorail. Privately operated tollways. Tunnels. Barges, canals. Electronic commuting. TWO lane roads. Buses with no seats for carrying cyclists between town centres.

Certainly has captured my imagination.

Any politician talking about Light Rail is just pissing wind until there are rails laid.
I smell apple pie!

How can he award a contract to PWC during ‘caretaker mode’? I am sure from my previous public service days you could not enter into any contracts etc and this one does not report until after the election according to the full release. Perhaps some current public servants can enlighten me.

I think light rail is a good idea, and would be easy to implement in a place like Canberra with it’s loads of open spaces. Of course this could just be another drag way study, with a predetermined result. 42 sound good, now they just need to find the right question which gives the answer.