Ovals and the Alexander Maconochie Centre

Well I’m sold. I need a holiday. You know what I’m doing today Peter? I’m planing my break and enter rampage of the middle class suburbs. I thought Id get a skin full of that new drug doing the rounds (Looks better if I’m on drugs). I’ll Hand my self in, because we know how much interest the police take in petty theft. Then I get all that sweet stuff on the inside. I love a swim and a bit of baseball. What with a little biffo and sodomy thrown in what could be better. Three meals a day. I might even get some meaningful work and be valued for my contribution. Health care on provided. It could become a yearly sabbatical from the trials and tribulations of the real world. I’m only a little worried as this is the ACT and I might get a short sentence or even worse, a slap on the wrist. Seems such a lot of effort for wrist slapping. I gotta get in quick before the words out and it fills up. Wanna buy a big screen? Going cheap.

dexi said :

Id say there will be plenty grounds keeping work going round with all that manicuring of lawns.

What you don’t see much of are work places that take in ex crime’s offering support understanding and good honest work. The pear support can do wonders. Better real Jobs on the outside than forced labour on the inside.

but dexi, the problem is that the numbers of jobs on the outside in canberra won’t be easy to acquire without some sort of program – like the traineeship programs or new apprenticeships that allow these people to gain a ticket in a trade. And will that disadvantage young people entering the workforce for the first time or older people who are chronically unemployed – given a chance at a new work direction?

The problem is that the areas crying out for workers are either

a} flooded with applications, most of them unsuitable
b) after sufficiently qualified personnel
c) unable to offer training to interested parties as they cannot afford the loss of 2 staff members – one to train & one to learn.

Id say there will be plenty grounds keeping work going round with all that manicuring of lawns.

What you don’t see much of are work places that take in ex crime’s offering support understanding and good honest work. The pear support can do wonders. Better real Jobs on the outside than forced labour on the inside.

they wouldn’t have to leave the facility – you could use the labour to keep the facility looking good, instead of employing contractors to come in and spruce it up during lockdown. ACT Housing promotes “the best garden” programs, so could the centre.

“Oh, you mean the cursory 3 or 4 blokes who stand around leaning on shovels watching the newbie do all the work? No wonder the budget and timescales blow out so far!”

Bit behind the times you are. Its one guy doing three or four blokes jobs. Newbie or not. Working to a fudged unrealistic time scale with no budget. How the times have changed. Much more inline with corporate profit.

would a chain gang include picking up carcasses off the streets, cleaning off graffitti (not legal art) sweeping streets, cleaning buildings, etc, etc?

It would be a pretty big waste of resources to have an entire “chain gang” trundle around picking up road kill, sweeping streets or cleaning buildings – not to mention, very hard to keep an eye on them.

Road works would be the way to go IMHO.

So you want to take away real jobs from honest hard working citizens and give them to criminals.

Oh, you mean the cursory 3 or 4 blokes who stand around leaning on shovels watching the newbie do all the work? No wonder the budget and timescales blow out so far!

dexi said :

So you want to take away real jobs from honest hard working citizens and give them to criminals.

would a chain gang include picking up carcasses off the streets, cleaning off graffitti (not legal art) sweeping streets, cleaning buildings, etc, etc?

what about the jobs that have a labour shortage?

So you want to take away real jobs from honest hard working citizens and give them to criminals.

What should they do all day – stare at the wall for 5 years.

No, please revisit previous comments as well as the ones made my you?

And chain gangs – they would cost a fortune to supervise, and probably achieve little. Would you trust their work?

A fortune to supervise hey?! And how much are the contractors charging for the grunt labor they use? Probably the same amount – so not real consideration there. And their work would want to be bloody good, because it would be a requirement of their incarceration.

sepi said :

Brutalisation is what people above are calling for “a living hell’ etc.

And chain gangs – they would cost a fortune to supervise, and probably achieve little. Would you trust their work?

Sepi, yes, i would. If the people participating had expressed a desire to be rehabilitated, and were prepared to work hard to achieve this goal, I would believe them wholeheartedly.

tom-tom said :

i feel sorry for you jaq; your argument is good and probably right but oh boy have you chosen the wrong place to make it

tom-tom Mmmmmmmmmm given the mixed bag of fruit responses and subsequent comments my post has generated, I think I might have picked the right forum in relation to the projects I am presently working on. Many of the comments I have read just ads to the ever increasing evidence base that there are a lot of damaged people out there and not all of them are behind bars….. some of them are on here

Brutalisation is what people above are calling for “a living hell’ etc.

Face facts – these people will get out of prison and have to live in normal society again – making their lives a living hell while they are in prison will not make them less likely to go back. It will just mess them up even more, and make it harder for them to enter normal life again.

And really things aren’t that luxurious = 3 meals a day – shock horror – would you prefer to starve them? And even Ivan Milat has a tv. His warden pointed out to the NSW premier who complained, that without some privileges to withhold, long term prisoners have no reason to behave in prison.

What should they do all day – stare at the wall for 5 years. People like to imagine they would sit there repenting the error of their ways. They wouldn’t. They would just sit there hating the world more and more.

And chain gangs – they would cost a fortune to supervise, and probably achieve little. Would you trust their work?

“Having a nice prison environment with every luxary afforded to you”

please!It is harldye going to be a nice environment!

wishuwell said :

Maybe the gaol is not going to be used for “crims”. Maybe a large part of it will be leased out to the Dept. of Immigration to use as an example of their new approach to illegals, a kind of new futuristic model of detention camp.

bugger that. give it to act housing for emergency accommodation…

Maybe the gaol is not going to be used for “crims”. Maybe a large part of it will be leased out to the Dept. of Immigration to use as an example of their new approach to illegals, a kind of new futuristic model of detention camp.

What’s going to “rehabilitate” someone more (i.e. make you not want to go back in the slammer again)- Having a nice prison environment with every luxury afforded to you OR being worried that by the time you get out your going to have a corn hole the size of a dinner plate?

Isn’t it better to deter people with the thought of going to a living hell if they commit a crime, rather than a resort style prison stay.

Rehabilitation is better than brutalisation – these people might end up living next door to you when they get out.

Here we go again, denial of “luxury” facilities seems to = brutalisation apparently. Good grief!

pptvb said :

Thank You Jaq for actually spelling GAOL correctly!
I’m so sick of our print media “americanising” the english language.
Spleen vented.

Or did they misspell goal?
Jail isn’t incorrectly spelt, it’s actually widely used with that spelling. It’s also only “americanised” spelt word I will use, basically because it actually makes more sense (including phonetically) than the “british” spelling of the word.

Anyway, I have no problem with there being an oval at the jail, sorry rehabilitation centre, however, I do not believe that the facilities should be better than what is available in the local suburbs. Give them a dust bowl like the local playing fields, or start looking after the local ovals better.

Victoria had far lower recidivism rates for offenders, due to their support programs for prisoners leaving gaol.

But they won’t introduce this support in NSW because they don’t want to spend any more money on crooks, because it isn’t popular with the public.

But preventing crime, via rehabilitation in gaol, or support for prisoners on release, saves money.

Court appearances alone cost more than watering an oval. Prevent even a quarter of offenders from reo0ffending and you’ve saved a mint.

Let them have their oval. Rehabilitation is better than brutalisation – these people might end up living next door to you when they get out.

If anyone’s got any actual peer-reviewed statistical research on prisoner rehabilitation vs. punishment, I’d be interested in seeing it.

If anyone’s got any half-remembered theories of what a man with a beard and a tweed jacket said on TV one time, and how it made them feel good so it must be true, I’d be interested in continuing to ignore it.

Oh, and if anyone from the Assembly is listening, how about we try an experiment? Let’s abolish punitive measures for, say, parking offences for about six months, and replace them with rehabilitation measures. Perhaps a talking circle, a safe space in which we can talk about how our rough childhoods made us park in Garema Place, and not the fact that there was no real reason not to. Go on, put your money where your mouth is.

i feel sorry for you jaq; your argument is good and probably right but oh boy have you chosen the wrong place to make it

“Gerry built Now, “soylent green” on the other hand… good prisoner fodder…”

Wouldn’t work either. All the class A drugs in the system. They wouldn’t pass food standards for dog food.

good point radonezh.
This really is a tough one isn’t it. No easy answers/solutions…
Damn. I hate it when things don’t fit into a nice litte box for me. 😉

dexi said :

Left job….sold house…..lost hope. For me working is a delicate balancing act. The rest was just bad choices and the inevitable. I let a person into my heart that had a drug habit, and the rest is history. I knew it was happening I just couldn’t control the situation. Strange that.

don’t give up. it will get better over time.

FC: dunno how many either. If’n you’d have asked me 15 years ago whether I thought that Surfers Paradise or Bondi would become places where you’d hear “fenya” being spoken, I’d have said “no way”.

The organized criminals are the ones who recruit and employ the small-timers and keep them in the “business”. More and more the bad stuff that goes on around the place in Oz is being linked to the big time crooks. E.g. the record ecstasy haul that occurred earlier this year.

dexi said :

I don’t think you would generate much power from hamster power druggies. Takes to long to get them healthy and fit. You could burn them and generate steam.

-[dexi @ #80]

Unfortunately, bodies don’t make good fuel – you’d have to provide that [fuel] too, so really not energy efficient idea in itself. Now, “soylent green” on the other hand… good prisoner fodder…

Left job….sold house…..lost hope. For me working is a delicate balancing act. The rest was just bad choices and the inevitable. I let a person into my heart that had a drug habit, and the rest is history. I knew it was happening I just couldn’t control the situation. Strange that.

Well, I for one am all for trying something new/different and in keeping with what “the experts” say will work – ’cause we all know just how well the current system ‘works’, right? Maybe if convicts go in and understand that there is still a place for them in society (once they’ve made “some form” of amends, they may be less likely to offend? I am all for trying it out…

Of course, I’m a little miffed that our school oval looks like the back paddock, and there are few ovals left (yet alone “manicured” ones), but if this system works – as far as I am concerned it is a damn wise investment!

Look at some of the other posts, it is hard enough to get a perp. sentenced!!! If there is any chance of returning them to society without them sucking the guts out of it [society] once they get out again – give it a go… $1 million artworks, pools, ovals and all!

radonezh –
I agree with what you are saying.
I wonder though how many criminals that will be housed in the the AMC would be this type of criminal though?
I also wonder what causes more pain/damage/destruction to the (law abiding members of) the community, these type of criminals or the more (could we call them ‘disorganised criminals’)who do things like beat up and rob your granny, steal your car and burn it, randomly attack you in a drug induced psychosis, etc.I would suggest that these types of criminals cause more immediate or first hand damage/distress to most members of the commuity.
I would also suggest that it is these types of criminals who have a better change of being rehabilitated, and it is more likely that it is these type who will be inhabiting this facility.
I know that it the organised crime rings that contribute to the drug supply and therefore addiction and crime to feed addiction etc. I have no solution to this.

“No moron, I was suggesting that you called Peterh a wife beater, which I thought was rather uncalled for.”

Oh come on. You can’t really be that dumb, can you?

“Do you think it would’ve been better to build it in Red Hill though? Better views ‘n that? :-)”

They should probably whack it in the middle of Woden, it’d make transport a lot easier.

dexi said :

Ta Peter but I am fine. I had the privilege of a good eduction. An understanding of black white and grey. I had the luck of not being criminalised for poor choices early on. Good pear support growing up. Lots of adventures, travel and excitement. I earned my place and lost it. So what. It would have been different if Id been locked in a box, ridiculed and forgotten. I might be a bitter criminal. People have spent time with me offering opportunities and encouragement. They still do. So I still have hope. I just can not work so I guess this is my lot for now.

People cant understand what helping young offenders does. It surprises me. They are already in the shit so pile it on.

My first employer told me I would be in jail by the time I was 21. He then took me home and raped me. Its a thing of life that when you are down its where the shit settles and just piles up. Youth detention should at the very least not add to the shit.

dexi, is there a physical reason for you not being able to work, or lack of experience in any particular field?

I earned my place and lost it. So what.

How did you loose your place Dexi?!

Jim Jones said :

Prison is never viewed by anyone as ‘an easy option’. The people stating that here are doing so for rhetorical effect and little more. If they argue otherwise, then I’ll gladly pay for them to spend a week in lock-up.

But fear of prison isn’t rehabilitative anyway, and fear of prison isn’t the big thing that prevents people from committing crimes. You don’t stop crime by making prison scary – prisons are insanely freaking scary in the US, and they have crime rates that make us look like we’re not really trying.

Much better to prevent crime by having people offend once (if at all), be rehabilitated and never enter the system again. Rather than the constant cycle of reooffence that is presently occurring.

Rather than attempting to scare people into obeying the rules (which doesn’t work), rehabilitation is the attempt to build (or rebuild) people’s respect for the rules of society. Constantly reinforcing the idea that a ‘criminal’ is an outcast of society (not part of society), is hated by society, and is punished by society is a particularly bad way of getting that individual to become part of that society. That’s why prison reinforces criminal behaviour – apart from having the opportunity to network with hardened criminal culture and the lack of alternative perspsectives, the very act of punitive imprisonment tells the prisoner that he is no longer a member of society.

The alternative – rehabilitation – is the attempt to build people up to the extent that they feel like they can contribute and be a valid, contributing member of society.

Jim, I understand what you are saying and if you are talking about drug addicted/fallen on hard times petty thieves, drink driving recidivists etc, I agree, but the thing is, prison is definitely viewed by an easy option by those who are hardened criminals – i.e. those who are part of the organized criminal underworld. Prison is used by such organized criminal gangs as a sort of a university/recruiting ground.

There are very big, very powerful international criminal organizations who have been making their way into Australia in droves in the last couple of decades (particularly since the end of the Cold War). They are not the sort of people who respond to rehab. Prison, for them, is like “head office”. These are the guys who make prison really scary for the small-time inmates. I am not sure how the Maconochie centre will address these growing element of the prison population.

I do concede, however, that they certainly don’t respond well to the other kind of prison either but the sad fact is that the Centre won’t do anything to stop that type of crime – and it’s a growth industry at the present time.

I would be curious to see whether the Centre makes any impact at all into crime rates in the ACT region in the medium to long term.

Do you think it would’ve been better to build it in Red Hill though? Better views ‘n that? 🙂

Ta Peter but I am fine. I had the privilege of a good eduction. An understanding of black white and grey. I had the luck of not being criminalised for poor choices early on. Good pear support growing up. Lots of adventures, travel and excitement. I earned my place and lost it. So what. It would have been different if Id been locked in a box, ridiculed and forgotten. I might be a bitter criminal. People have spent time with me offering opportunities and encouragement. They still do. So I still have hope. I just can not work so I guess this is my lot for now.

People cant understand what helping young offenders does. It surprises me. They are already in the shit so pile it on.

My first employer told me I would be in jail by the time I was 21. He then took me home and raped me. Its a thing of life that when you are down its where the shit settles and just piles up. Youth detention should at the very least not add to the shit.

Sorry for the lack of italics. The previous post italics should have included:

my heart breaks. Get off the drugs.

I agree. Unfortunately there is a percentage of the population that doesn’t have the character and confidence to actually do this. These people should be shackled within large hamster-style wheels connected to electrical generators and made to run. The benefits are that they will gain fitness and maintain a healthy lifestyle, and the electricity they generate will be environmentally friendly. Everyone wins!

my heart breaks. Get off the drugs.

I agree. Unfortunately there is a percentage of the population that doesn’t have the character and confidence to actually do this. These people should be shackled within large hamster-style wheels connected to electrical generators and made to run. The benefits are that they will gain fitness and maintain a healthy lifestyle, and the electricity they generate will be environmentally friendly. Everyone wins!

I think this plan will dove-tail in perfectly with my suggestion for the duplication of the GDE. That power can run the machinery. Call me…we’ll do business 🙂

On a serious note, this quote above has had me in stitches for the last few minutes. I really must get some “office brand” tissues to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes. I’ll be back shortly.

and i am waiting for that particular light to come on, myself…

That said mate, after reading your stories and hearing your background, I think you are well deserved that remaining vice for now 🙂

tylersmayhem said :

Nothing in our current judicial system says that people are to be punished whilst in prison. Being there in the first place is their punishment.

Indeed, no disputing that. But do I have to go through my list of the amenities at this facility again?! Maybe read this entire thread from the top down and see if any lights come on upstairs?!

They’re actually pretty damn basic and purposeful, all things considered. Fitter means happier. Happier means more likely to take on another path.

tylersmayhem said :

Yes yes, I know mate. I used to be an cigarette addict.

But then, eventually commonsense kicked in to save both my health and pocket.

and i am waiting for that particular light to come on, myself…

Nothing in our current judicial system says that people are to be punished whilst in prison. Being there in the first place is their punishment.

Indeed, no disputing that. But do I have to go through my list of the amenities at this facility again?! Maybe read this entire thread from the top down and see if any lights come on upstairs?!

Skidd Marx said :

Nothing in our current judicial system says that people are to be punished whilst in prison. Being there in the first place is their punishment.

but don’t make it a pleasant place to be in…

tylers, don’t forget that smoking is an addiction. I would go without food to buy a pack of ciggies, the nicotine in my system makes sure of that.

Yes yes, I know mate. I used to be an cigarette addict. But then, eventually commonsense kicked in to save both my health and pocket.

Nothing in our current judicial system says that people are to be punished whilst in prison. Being there in the first place is their punishment.

I reckon if the Gaol needs an oval, make it artificial turf. Lets not waste the water.

To mistake it for me accusing you of being a wife-beater is completely hilarious.

No moron, I was suggesting that you called Peterh a wife beater, which I thought was rather uncalled for.

In fact, why am I feeding the troll! Bad Tylers…bad Tylers.

dexi said :

From you actually. Peoples hard earned bum money paid in tax. I am grateful. Cigarettes represent 2 days food. My choice, maybe. Nicobates cost $28. I could go cold turkey but I get nasty and sad. My sitting ability has earned me fridge rights so I wont go hungry. You will be happy to know that I don’t spend money on drugs, alcohol or sex. I rarely enjoy myself and that life can be immensely miserable. I probably haven’t been punished enough. But I do like RA. Its free for all.

Criminals stole all my money and most of my stuff. So it goes.

Dexi, that is really bad. i won’t suggest you get help or anything dumb like that, just keep looking towards the future, believe me, getting back on your feet is a big deal, I will always remember the struggle and I cherish the good times.

Jim Jones said :

“Would you care to comment on my suggestion that…oh may god…MAYBE parenting has something to do with it?”

Ah yes, the parents are to blame. It’s all about parenting. Well done. You’re a real intellectual. You’ve demonstrated that quite well for all to see.

“or the immaturity to accuse someone of being a wife beater hey?!”

You’ve really missed the point there – I was referring to your question about my class-status. The wife-beating question is quite a well-known example of the poor rhetorical ruses you’re attempting to use. To mistake it for me accusing you of being a wife-beater is completely hilarious. It’s got that Alanis Morrisette kind of irony to it.

My sympathies to your poor wife though. I hope her black eye heals up quickly.

Jim,

I posed the question, not Tylers. I was simply trying to understand how you can classify middle class people, if you are one.

or are you in the higher echelons of society? methinks not.

From you actually. Peoples hard earned bum money paid in tax. I am grateful. Cigarettes represent 2 days food. My choice, maybe. Nicobates cost $28. I could go cold turkey but I get nasty and sad. My sitting ability has earned me fridge rights so I wont go hungry. You will be happy to know that I don’t spend money on drugs, alcohol or sex. I rarely enjoy myself and that life can be immensely miserable. I probably haven’t been punished enough. But I do like RA. Its free for all.

Criminals stole all my money and most of my stuff. So it goes.

Jim, perhaps a less inflammatory approach to making rhetorical points would help everyone?

I’m with you Jim.
Everything you have said makes sense.
I think some people struggle to see that things aren’t always black and white.

tylersmayhem said :

For lunch I spent my last $14 on cigarettes.

I’m seriously questioning your intelligence lack of judgment right about now Dexi. Even a ten year old would have the common sense to have food at a higher priority that f**king cigarettes?! Well, at least give up your nico-lozenges then, and save THAT money for food perhaps?!

Where does your money come from when it floats into your life as a matter of interest?

tylers, don’t forget that smoking is an addiction. I would go without food to buy a pack of ciggies, the nicotine in my system makes sure of that.

I understand dexi’s view, if you have the cash to buy the smokes, and it doesn’t hurt anyone else, you can rationalise buying them.

“Would you care to comment on my suggestion that…oh may god…MAYBE parenting has something to do with it?”

Ah yes, the parents are to blame. It’s all about parenting. Well done. You’re a real intellectual. You’ve demonstrated that quite well for all to see.

“or the immaturity to accuse someone of being a wife beater hey?!”

You’ve really missed the point there – I was referring to your question about my class-status. The wife-beating question is quite a well-known example of the poor rhetorical ruses you’re attempting to use. To mistake it for me accusing you of being a wife-beater is completely hilarious. It’s got that Alanis Morrisette kind of irony to it.

My sympathies to your poor wife though. I hope her black eye heals up quickly.

For lunch I spent my last $14 on cigarettes.

I’m seriously questioning your intelligence lack of judgment right about now Dexi. Even a ten year old would have the common sense to have food at a higher priority that f**king cigarettes?! Well, at least give up your nico-lozenges then, and save THAT money for food perhaps?!

Where does your money come from when it floats into your life as a matter of interest?

Radonezh:

Prison is never viewed by anyone as ‘an easy option’. The people stating that here are doing so for rhetorical effect and little more. If they argue otherwise, then I’ll gladly pay for them to spend a week in lock-up.

But fear of prison isn’t rehabilitative anyway, and fear of prison isn’t the big thing that prevents people from committing crimes. You don’t stop crime by making prison scary – prisons are insanely freaking scary in the US, and they have crime rates that make us look like we’re not really trying.

Much better to prevent crime by having people offend once (if at all), be rehabilitated and never enter the system again. Rather than the constant cycle of reooffence that is presently occurring.

Rather than attempting to scare people into obeying the rules (which doesn’t work), rehabilitation is the attempt to build (or rebuild) people’s respect for the rules of society. Constantly reinforcing the idea that a ‘criminal’ is an outcast of society (not part of society), is hated by society, and is punished by society is a particularly bad way of getting that individual to become part of that society. That’s why prison reinforces criminal behaviour – apart from having the opportunity to network with hardened criminal culture and the lack of alternative perspsectives, the very act of punitive imprisonment tells the prisoner that he is no longer a member of society.

The alternative – rehabilitation – is the attempt to build people up to the extent that they feel like they can contribute and be a valid, contributing member of society.

Yes peter still got the golfs.

What shits me to tears is the propensity of people to make snap judgments about ‘law and order’ that assumes that people in prison are there because they are inherently bad (evil, lazy, whatever)

No Jimbo, that’s YOUR assumption…YOUR snap judgment that you think that us “people” all think that.

I am also astounded that in my attempt to explain parenting as a possible cause of the “grass root” issue, all you can do is harp on about my “manicured lawn” comment. Would you care to comment on my suggestion that…oh may god…MAYBE parenting has something to do with it? Have the intelligence to address important issues before using big words like “propensity”, or the immaturity to accuse someone of being a wife beater hey?!

Jim Jones said :

“If the govt had said, we want to build this great human rights centre for rehabilitation, what else could we do instead?”

Ah come on. That’s a cop-out argument and you know it. By that logic, no prisons would EVER be built, because everyone would much rather spend the money on something that benefitted them personally (instead of those evil criminals). Hell, the Australian Motorist Party would probably just sell all the prisons and then build dragstrips everywhere.

Money spent wisely on rehabilitation ends up saving society money (and lives). You don’t ‘fix’ complex issues such as education, health, etc. just by chucking money at them.

And as for “it won’t be used by all canberrans, only a select few.” Well, gee, I feel so left out because I don’t get to be one of ‘select few’ that get to go to jail. There are any number of essential tax paid services that are delimited to ‘the select few’ (from the most basic social welfare to child support, from meals on wheels to shelters for battered women). I don’t begrudge any of this because I don’t get anything out of it. It’s not about giving money to all the people who are already doing quite well, it’s about benefiting the community.

Jim,

I would prefer that the funding for these services, meals on wheels, for example can continue, however i was told the other day that the cost to run MOW is now greater than the support provided by the government. The elderly gent was quite worried that he wouldn’t be getting any meals soon. I assured him that my org (church) would still support him as best we could.

He isn’t a member of the church, but that isn’t an issue.

These are damaged children. Fix the problem early or at least try. Adults are so much harder to influence. The more poor damaged children you can help the less nasty criminal adults you have to deal with. Is that so hard to understand. These are children that don’t necessarily have the benefit of understanding yet. They might be your children.

dexi said :

Sure peter Ill Indulge you because you asked many times. I woke in my van. Suxed down the last of my yummy nicobate lozenge. I stalked around trying to think and watered a garden. I swallowed my pride and sought out an internet connection. Today I’m dog sitting and tonight I’m child sitting. Both come with a fridge, a tiolet and a shower. For lunch I spent my last $14 on cigarettes. The rest of the time has been spent on RT avoiding any free thought. Tonight Ill be in the van with radio national. Tomorrow I don’t know but I do look forward to that moment before I fall asleep. Thursday Ill be able register my van. Its taken 8 weeks. Van registry is my ultimate form of freedom that I look forward to. Im not sure what relevance any of that has to do with this thread. Do you wish to pigeon hole me.

Its the categories that let us all down. People and life is way to diverse to get caught up in categories. They just don’t work.

sorry if you feel that I am pigeon holing you, it is just that by your mannerisms, I thought that maybe you were someone i knew from a few years back. good luck to you. i hope that it all goes well for you.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I agree. Unfortunately there is a percentage of the population that doesn’t have the character and confidence to actually do this. These people should be shackled within large hamster-style wheels connected to electrical generators and made to run. The benefits are that they will gain fitness and maintain a healthy lifestyle, and the electricity they generate will be environmentally friendly. Everyone wins!

Choice.

Jim The motorist party wanted to fill our prisons with mandatory detention. So they wont be selling them. They would be building more. Maybe the drag strip could go to the suburbs.

“If the govt had said, we want to build this great human rights centre for rehabilitation, what else could we do instead?”

Ah come on. That’s a cop-out argument and you know it. By that logic, no prisons would EVER be built, because everyone would much rather spend the money on something that benefitted them personally (instead of those evil criminals). Hell, the Australian Motorist Party would probably just sell all the prisons and then build dragstrips everywhere.

Money spent wisely on rehabilitation ends up saving society money (and lives). You don’t ‘fix’ complex issues such as education, health, etc. just by chucking money at them.

And as for “it won’t be used by all canberrans, only a select few.” Well, gee, I feel so left out because I don’t get to be one of ‘select few’ that get to go to jail. There are any number of essential tax paid services that are delimited to ‘the select few’ (from the most basic social welfare to child support, from meals on wheels to shelters for battered women). I don’t begrudge any of this because I don’t get anything out of it. It’s not about giving money to all the people who are already doing quite well, it’s about benefiting the community.

Jim Jones said :

What shits me to tears is the propensity of people to make snap judgments about ‘law and order’ that assumes that people in prison are there because they are inherently bad (evil, lazy, whatever) and that they can be safely demonised without a second thought; ignoring that face that (a) these are actually human beings, not ‘criminals’ (the word has the effect of dehumanising that which you’re talking about), and (b) the object of the game is to prevent crime, not to see rates increase because people are more interested in moral showboating than in increasing chances of rehabilitation.

The thread starter (by Jaq) actually started out in this vein, and was swiftly sidelined by mob mentality screaming that having an oval at a prison was ‘throwing luxuries at the criminal underclass’.

If the object of the game is to prevent crime, then how will a centre like Alexander Maconochie achieve such an objective, if it is perceived by society (and therefore by potential criminals) to be an easy option? I’m not trying to be glib here, I really want to know. For argument’s sake, lets just say it is phenomenally successful at rehabilitating criminals, but how will that prevent future criminals from committing crimes?

I don’t think you would generate much power from hamster power druggies. Takes to long to get them healthy and fit. You could burn them and generate steam.

Jaq, a word of warning, you won’t change these sadists.

Nyssa…where, exactly, are children not provided with an oval? There is one in pretty much every suburb. There’s one over my fence. There’s one at every school. The only kids that miss out on ovals are the ones who are too fat and lazy and who’s parents have too much time spent complaining to the government about why society isn’t raising their offspring.

The rest of your argument is tired, old and dead. Yeerrrs not everyone who grows up in broken homes commit crime…but some do, and the reason for it is that person responds to their situation in a certain way. What kind of a society are we if we do not endeavor to help these people? Be a certain kind of person from birth or else? These children were born into our society. It is our duty to set them on the right track if their parents won’t.

Has anyone actually heard about the conditions our child services are in? They’re privatized, with heads that don’t give a sh-t and caseworkers with hundred of cases per person. These children are basically commodities profited from by private companies…and even if we changed the system now, there would still be some pretty f-ked up kids with the experiences our child-services have given them. Why can’t we have another safety net for them? Somewhere where they can be turned on another path, not just being punished as they have been for most of their lives for no real reason?

Sure peter Ill Indulge you because you asked many times. I woke in my van. Suxed down the last of my yummy nicobate lozenge. I stalked around trying to think and watered a garden. I swallowed my pride and sought out an internet connection. Today I’m dog sitting and tonight I’m child sitting. Both come with a fridge, a tiolet and a shower. For lunch I spent my last $14 on cigarettes. The rest of the time has been spent on RT avoiding any free thought. Tonight Ill be in the van with radio national. Tomorrow I don’t know but I do look forward to that moment before I fall asleep. Thursday Ill be able register my van. Its taken 8 weeks. Van registry is my ultimate form of freedom that I look forward to. Im not sure what relevance any of that has to do with this thread. Do you wish to pigeon hole me.

Its the categories that let us all down. People and life is way to diverse to get caught up in categories. They just don’t work.

Despite the facilities, I anticipate that our local gaol will still be one of the nearest things to hell that most people could experience in this life.

My heart breaks. Get off the drugs.

I agree. Unfortunately there is a percentage of the population that doesn’t have the character and confidence to actually do this. These people should be shackled within large hamster-style wheels connected to electrical generators and made to run. The benefits are that they will gain fitness and maintain a healthy lifestyle, and the electricity they generate will be environmentally friendly. Everyone wins!

oh, and i should mention. I am not blaming the staff at the ED for the long wait, they were doing the best that they could with no resources.

Jim, the issue that most folk have with this centre is the fact that there wasn’t public consultation, unless you went down to the planning office, into the basement, and past the sign that said “beware of the Leopard”

If the govt had said, we want to build this great human rights centre for rehabilitation, what else could we do instead? I would have said, fix the roads, the health system and keep the schools open. the amount of money spent could have sorted out several potholes, the Emergency dept waiting times, more beds, better pay for the long suffering nurses and doctors, schools that could also be used to house community groups out of hours, etc, etc.

I am not particularly impressed with an ED where i have to wait for several hours after my recent surgery split the stitches, and i have to sit quietly, so as to not cause more pain.

that is why i am amazed of the wastage that has gone on for this facility. it won’t be used by all canberrans, only a select few.

the money could have been used to rehabilitate canberra’s infrastructure.

Love your work, Jim.

“Isn’t manicured just a fancy word for mowing?”

Manicuring is like mowing, but luxurious … with YOUR hard-earned tax dollars … AND IT’S AN OUTRAGE.

dexi said :

Peter… Sure the foster system works. Just more unsupervised adults.
I like the idea of Alexander Maconochie Centre with real luxuries and sweets, that kids could graduate to rather than going home. Stuff like we see in the best private schools. External adventure based programs. Intensive education. Laughter camaraderie and fun. Encouraged to be the best they can be. Maybe even the mental ill children would benefit. But that would be offering the turds more than non turds.
Making a difference in a damaged child’s life takes time, resources and a hell of a lot more understanding than is going around this thread.

I said a foster type system, not foster care. base the rehab on the principles of the fostering system, and allow the kids to have a fair and equal chance to make something of their lives. (if they want to)

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Tylersmayhem assures us that this oval will be ‘manicured’.

“what is your social status? are you middle class?

are you in a comfortable job that allows you to look down your nose at everyone else?

or does society owe you?”

Nice argument: Either I’m just looking down my nose at everyone, OR society owes me a living. Which one are you? And when did you stop beating your wife?

Peter, I agree with about everything you’ve written here and I fail to see why you’re taking issue.

What shits me to tears is the propensity of people to make snap judgments about ‘law and order’ that assumes that people in prison are there because they are inherently bad (evil, lazy, whatever) and that they can be safely demonised without a second thought; ignoring that face that (a) these are actually human beings, not ‘criminals’ (the word has the effect of dehumanising that which you’re talking about), and (b) the object of the game is to prevent crime, not to see rates increase because people are more interested in moral showboating than in increasing chances of rehabilitation.

The thread starter (by Jaq) actually started out in this vein, and was swiftly sidelined by mob mentality screaming that having an oval at a prison was ‘throwing luxuries at the criminal underclass’.

Sorry I didn’t mean to knock foster care. They do amazing work with the truly vulnerable children.

Peter… Sure the foster system works. Just more unsupervised adults.
I like the idea of Alexander Maconochie Centre with real luxuries and sweets, that kids could graduate to rather than going home. Stuff like we see in the best private schools. External adventure based programs. Intensive education. Laughter camaraderie and fun. Encouraged to be the best they can be. Maybe even the mental ill children would benefit. But that would be offering the turds more than non turds.
Making a difference in a damaged child’s life takes time, resources and a hell of a lot more understanding than is going around this thread.

dexi, in Australia, we provide food and shelter if the situation was not by choice.

dexi said :

Yes Peter I have freedom. The choices I have are more about not doing things than doing.

Radonezh In Australia we at least try to provide food and shelter regardless of our capacity to work. My life isn’t full of luxuries and sweets.

dexi,

what is your typical day to day life like?

Jim,

what is your social status? are you middle class?

are you in a comfortable job that allows you to look down your nose at everyone else?

or does society owe you?

Yes Peter I have freedom. The choices I have are more about not doing things than doing.

Radonezh In Australia we at least try to provide food and shelter regardless of our capacity to work. My life isn’t full of luxuries and sweets.

So you’re the person who wrote: “Crims dont care about anyone but themselves…Let them rot.” And you’re calling someone else a troll/complete idiot?

dexi said :

I don’t work but I do have shelter and food.

Not being a mind reader, it’d be helpful if you could elaborate.

dexi said :

I think you will find that the use of the “lavished and sweet facilities’, will be behavior based. I’m sure it will be the first of a long list of freedoms removed or privileges granted.

I don’t work but I do have shelter and food.

and freedom?

I think you will find that the use of the “lavished and sweet facilities’, will be behavior based. I’m sure it will be the first of a long list of freedoms removed or privileges granted.

I don’t work but I do have shelter and food.

Snap Tyler. We must live in the same suburb 🙂

I call troll and/or complete idiot on Jim.

tylersmayhem said :

I understood your point from the outset Peter, and your posts have been excellent. What I am trying to draw attention to is that if these young criminals are lavished with sweet facilities – doesn’t that project a warped understanding of what it’s like for the “big boys” if they continue breaking the law?

what we need to look at is a system whereby juvenile offenders are reintroduced into the community via a foster type program, allowing them to be placed into a stable environment that allows them to excel in whatever field of study, work or sporting pursuit that they choose to pursue.

Not lavish them with the luxuries that are unobtainable at home.

They need to feel that they can contribute to society, not be overlooked. in my experience, people that dismiss these kids out of hand, and i have been guilty of doing it, deny them the chance to reach their full potential. remove them from the negative environments – home, social or school and get them into a caring, stable environment.

This does not have to be a govt funded program, charities do this kind of rehab for adults and alcohol abuse. what we need is a grants system for charities to enable them to start making inroads into changing these kid’s lives. If we can nip the criminal activity in the bud whilst these kids are young, they may have the chance to grow up and become a happy, healthy adult.

dexi said :

“ rather than worry about some inmates who have lost their “choice” through their own actions.”

In this thread I think this is my point. It is the loss of choice that is the punishment in jail. So called luxuries are all about rehabilitation. Jail curtails your freedom to choose. Im sure an inmate wont sleep in, then decide he might take a little dip before some porn surfing and then a spot of baseball before lunch.

In all honestly, I don’t have that level of freedom either. In theory yes, in practice, no. For example, if I want to take a little dip before surfing the net, I would need to pay to access the local pool (or pay for a pool to be installed), and I also have to pay for my internet connection. I pay for my lunch. I pay for these things by trading my theoretically free time to my employer. If I didn’t trade my freedom, I couldn’t have access to the things that I need. I can’t just take someone’s pool over for an hour. I don’t get free internet. I do not have choice in terms of the fact that I must exert effort to have the things I need or want.

No one is saying that the opportunity to obtain basic needs should be denied prisoners, but that these things should be provided only as a result of effort exerted (just as we all must work for even our most basic needs such as food and shelter). How is this unreasonable?

I’ve just been re-reading Jimbos rants to try and squeeze some kind of sense out of them, but I just can’t seem to. The posts are full of such s**t like the cherry below:

It doesn’t solve any problems, but it makes everyone feel very important and self-righteous.

Huh…self-rightous. You mean like some little turn coming and breaking into my house and stealing MY s**t that I have worked long and hard for? You mean THAT kind of self-rightous?

And this pearl of wisdom:

There’s already too many spoilt, whining, socially blinkered middle-class pricks with over-inflated senses of self-entitlement and a paranoid view of ‘criminals’ (oh my god they’re out to get me).

Self entitlement?! Please re-read my paragraph above this. And “paranoid view of “criminals” – or just the 3 times I’ve had a place broken into over the years? That kind of paranoid?

I imagine you also think “well, your stuff is insures isn’t it”. Yes, yes it is. It costs for this insurance. It costs to lodge a claim…ALL 3 times. More to the fact, it’s the principal that some little turn have allowed themselves into MY house – without permission. I if ever catch one, there will need to be more than police sirens pulling into my driveway – and not for me or my family.

I understood your point from the outset Peter, and your posts have been excellent. What I am trying to draw attention to is that if these young criminals are lavished with sweet facilities – doesn’t that project a warped understanding of what it’s like for the “big boys” if they continue breaking the law?

“Regardless, at the end of the day you can’t make people change their ways if they don’t want to, and when they decide they want to change their ways most people are quite capable of doing it for themselves. If you don’t want to lose your freedom don’t do the crime – it ain’t rocket science”

Well said………….

tylersmayhem said :

and yes, I have many friends in silverwater, goulburn and a couple of other institutions.

Thanks for your insight Peter. I suspect you might me the most authoritative person to comment on this post. Brilliant you have worked so hard to get things back on track.

I have a question, and yes…it’s a loaded one. Do Silverwater, Goulburn and a couple of other institutions have indoor basketball courts, indoor heated pools, a tv room and a manicured oval?

I already asked that question tylers, I don’t go into the facilities, I correspond by snail mail with my mates, or through their families.

I have been there when a couple have been let out, and they appreciate the fact that they can drive to a maccas and have a burger without having to sit inside the building, they can sit outside and enjoy the sunshine. Seeing their appreciation for life, after being inside and the determination to change their lives is amazing. One mate has now learnt to read, and write, something i never knew, and he told me that he got his cellmate to read the letters to him. we still correspond via snail mail, he cannot afford a computer, and is now living in QLD.

Thanks for the tip Peter but I already have free internet.

Jaq@20 In your eagerness to claim the moral high ground over those who would dare to think differently from you you overlook the fact that the Blondey comment was addressd to Pure Blond (poster 2) not yourself. Regardless, at the end of the day you can’t make people change their ways if they don’t want to, and when they decide they want to change their ways most people are quite capable of doing it for themselves. If you don’t want to lose your freedom don’t do the crime – it ain’t rocket science (unless of course you come before the Canberra judicial system where a smack on the hand and a good telling off seems to be about the limit of any justice these days.

dexi said :

“ rather than worry about some inmates who have lost their “choice” through their own actions.”

In this thread I think this is my point. It is the loss of choice that is the punishment in jail. So called luxuries are all about rehabilitation. Jail curtails your freedom to choose. Im sure an inmate wont sleep in, then decide he might take a little dip before some porn surfing and then a spot of baseball before lunch.

the reason that they don’t have the right to choose is that they have broken the law. I have the right to choose if I go to work. I have the right to choose whether I eat lunch, or starve myself. I have the right to drink myself into oblivion.

These are all my own actions.

But, if i break the law, I know that the freedom to choose will be taken away. and that is the point. Criminals need to understand that they will lose their freedom if they break the law.

and yes, I have many friends in silverwater, goulburn and a couple of other institutions.

Thanks for your insight Peter. I suspect you might me the most authoritative person to comment on this post. Brilliant you have worked so hard to get things back on track.

I have a question, and yes…it’s a loaded one. Do Silverwater, Goulburn and a couple of other institutions have indoor basketball courts, indoor heated pools, a tv room and a manicured oval?

“ rather than worry about some inmates who have lost their “choice” through their own actions.”

In this thread I think this is my point. It is the loss of choice that is the punishment in jail. So called luxuries are all about rehabilitation. Jail curtails your freedom to choose. Im sure an inmate wont sleep in, then decide he might take a little dip before some porn surfing and then a spot of baseball before lunch.

dexi said :

What makes you think i don’t live on the fringe. Tuggeranong Woolworths skip was recommended to me. Evan beer sometimes.

I don’t see us and them. Just people.

unless you are posting from the tuggers library, free, by the way if you can prove you are unemployed, you are further from the fringe than you think. the WW skip is locked. always has been.

jim,

never said i was hardworking and law abiding, did I, but I did give you a pretty good hint, re my social status.

and yes, I have many friends in silverwater, goulburn and a couple of other institutions. I knew them prior to their incarceration. They are working now on rehab, and the chance to see their kids. It is a reward that they get, not a right.

What makes you think i don’t live on the fringe. Tuggeranong Woolworths skip was recommended to me. Evan beer sometimes.

I don’t see us and them. Just people.

Actually trying to figure out why people do bad things and trying to prevent it is much too difficult. It’s so much easier to vilify CRIMINALS and place all the blame at their feet and then crucify them for it. It doesn’t solve any problems, but it makes everyone feel very important and self-righteous.

Please see my last post #43. Nuff said.

Look at all the puffed-out chestbeating that’s going on here:

Yes Jimbo, we’ve seen YOU leading the way!

I sometimes wonder if the internet hardliners would take such a strident view if their child got involved in crime, not that I would wish that on any of you, but unfortunately it does happen.

I am not a professional in this topic, but I dare say that if parents were around to care about and keep an eye out for what their kids are up to, and the groups they are hanging out with – perhaps this “criminal activity” is less likely to occur?! But yes, it does take effort to keep an eye on the kids, encourage them participating in team sports, encouraging them to get a job at a young age. It would also mean doing it yourself – and working hard and being a positive role model for your children. Not just leaving it up to the toughest, coolest kid your children can get in with at school or down at the local shops. This is not theory – I saw it happen day in and day out growing up.

It is not restricted to the lower class either. I helped a friends family get my friend out of a runaway, drug addicted criminal situation. They were upper class, but it took the solid care and willingness of friends and family to pull them out.

“why not put more effort into getting them help, rather than worry about some inmates who have lost their “choice” through their own actions.”

Actually trying to figure out why people do bad things and trying to prevent it is much too difficult. It’s so much easier to vilify CRIMINALS and place all the blame at their feet and then crucify them for it. It doesn’t solve any problems, but it makes everyone feel very important and self-righteous.

Look at all the puffed-out chestbeating that’s going on here: virtually every second person is rushing to state how ‘law-abiding’ and ‘hard-working’ they are. Surely it’s obvious that criminality only occurs to lazy good-for-nothing – they must be inherently bad people.

BTW, taylersmayhem. No mod activity yet, but I could always call a WAAAAaaambulance for you.

New Yeah said :

Jim Jones said :

I sometimes wonder if the internet hardliners would take such a strident view if their child got involved in crime, not that I would wish that on any of you, but unfortunately it does happen.

Sure does happen. I had a friend who I grew up with who, after doing his arts degree went bolshie and, cutting a long story short, started dealing drugs. He ended up doing hard labour somewhere out the back of Longreach building fences on sheep stations.

When he got out, he said to me: “Prison and hard labour were the best things that ever happened to me. I’d never be off drugs if I hadn’t had that discipline forced on me because my parents never disciplined me.” (he had really liberal parents).

dexi said :

Randonezh, your choice to have a family. Your choice to buy the house. Your choice to choose what you eat. Your choice to sleep in or not. Try sleeping in one day by choice and I’m sure you wont be out on the street starving. Freedom.

dexi,

what is your choice?

have you lived on the street, out of your car?
Try it. mcdonalds and kfc used to throw the food out that hadn’t been consumed at the food court at belco mall into a big hopper. after hours, we (there were 3 of us) would salvage what we could for a meal.

that was whilst waiting for “emergency housing”
can’t get the dole if you don’t have an address.

can get by for a while, then ainslie village is on the horizon….

how many people live under the radar these days? why not put more effort into getting them help, rather than worry about some inmates who have lost their “choice” through their own actions.

dexi said :

Randonezh, your choice to have a family. Your choice to buy the house. Your choice to choose what you eat. Your choice to sleep in or not. Try sleeping in one day by choice and I’m sure you wont be out on the street starving. Freedom.

Their choice to break the law and to give up their freedom to be at the mercy of the state. If you do the crime, then do the time. Choices have consequences.

Jim Jones said :

There’s already too many spoilt, whining, socially blinkered middle-class pricks with over-inflated senses of self-entitlement and a paranoid view of ‘criminals’ (oh my god they’re out to get me).

Amen Jim – that’s what keeps these discussions alive! Not to mention misdirected generalisations about what motivates criminals and how best to deal with them.

I sometimes wonder if the internet hardliners would take such a strident view if their child got involved in crime, not that I would wish that on any of you, but unfortunately it does happen.

To not bother with them is just feeding the jail system with your tax money. Its the cant be bothered with the hard questions that feeds crime.

…and again, as in every post on RA that has anything to do with the Holiday Camp, there are the Dexi’s who understand that by not providing facilities which are luxuries to most Canberran’s, this translates to “not bothering with them”. In a previous post, some idiot understood this as because I think they should not have facilities that they do not have at home (nor do many other citizens), that I’m saying I think it’s a good idea that they get bashed on “the inside” because that’s the treatment they might get at home. Again, I suspect that moronic poster might be accessing RA from inside this Summer Camp. Hang on, probably not true. Too busy out dive bombing in that sweet pool, or practising free-throws on the indoor basketball court.

I am all about humane treatment and a safe prisoner environment – but showering criminals with all of these luxuries just doesn’t wash with me. And I will not apologies for it. How about some hard work, and actually contributing to society for a bloody change and give something back, rather than just taking whatever you please because it is “easier” rather than working damn hard for it!

Jim Jones said :

Tylersmayhem is actually saying “I’m just asking them not to provide CRIMINALS with these facilities out of my hard earned tax money.”

There’s already too many spoilt, whining, socially blinkered middle-class pricks with over-inflated senses of self-entitlement and a paranoid view of ‘criminals’ (oh my god they’re out to get me). Now there’s one who wants to deny people food and exercise because he feels his tax dollars are too important. You utter wanker.

This last comment is completely uncalled for and shows a complete lack of respect.

Have you ever considered that the “middle-class pricks” have a “sense of self-entitlement” because they actually WORK for their entitlements instead of trying to take them from someone else?

The majority of people who work for their entitlements (which is most people) believe that rehabilitation of criminals must begin with instilling the value of working for your entitlements. Food and leisure activities are things that we all, generally, pay for with the “sweat of our brows”. It is not unreasonable to ask that prisoners be subjected to the same regimen as we all are.

Jim Jones said :

“Where is the deterrent to future criminal activity?”

Proven effective means of reducing crime rates are related to socio-economic status (and, very importantly) education, and using the justice system as a form of rehabilitation – to prevent reoffence – rather than this “let’s hang ’em” kind of crap that’s going on in this thread.

If you’re serious about reducing crime, then it’s very clear about what has to be done. If you’re more interested in banging on about how people that commit crimes are evil (and won’t somebody think of the children, and my tax dollars are blah blah blah) then you’re a bigger part of the problem than most criminals out there. You’re also very very stupid.

Tylersmayhem is actually saying “I’m just asking them not to provide CRIMINALS with these facilities out of my hard earned tax money.”

There’s already too many spoilt, whining, socially blinkered middle-class pricks with over-inflated senses of self-entitlement and a paranoid view of ‘criminals’ (oh my god they’re out to get me). Now there’s one who wants to deny people food and exercise because he feels his tax dollars are too important. You utter wanker.

Jim,

i am not middle class. Thanks for tipping me and others into that bucket. I am working class. A Bogan, if you will.

If you want to talk about the fact that these crims are being punished, how? loss of freedom? but their family and friends can come to visit, and there are even playground areas for their kids.

The fundamental objection that I have about this facility is that the money wasted on it could have fixed up the health system – 113 million dollars + would have gone a long way to at least getting it back on track.

which Gaols in australia have pools, ovals, facilities for inmates? none. except this one.

why is that?

because the other states recognise that to remove the luxuries of life, and to look at rehab as a way to prevent having to come back, most inmates will jump at the chance. If the gaol was less aimed at pleasing the human rights advocates and more at helping people rehabilitate, there wouldn’t be swimming pools, there would be other offerings to allow the people who wanted help to have a stable environment when they left the system.

Silverwater has rehab programs with supervised employment for its inmates. granted, a lot of them end up working for car yards, selling cars, but most have a chance to get their lives turned around and back on track, with a job waiting for them at the end of their time.

If the ACT government had set up programs based on rehab, not containment with luxuries, maybe there would be workers on the GDE wearing a prisoner’s uniform.

for all the money thrown at the criminal problem, you are forgetting one tiny, but important thing. many of these repeat offenders want to go back to prison. it is the only life they have ever known, they have friends and communities in the prison system.

Seeing someone locked up for serial rape, murder or other violent crime, watching TV in their cell, would have to make the family of the victims think that they are being punished.

The person who commited the crime that landed them in gaol should be punished. They shouldn’t have access to the internet, TV, recreation etc, when there are families living out of their cars, old people sleeping on the streets, many children without access to basic schoolbooks and the internet.

By all means, give them access to rehabilitation, but do so in a meaningful way. If they don’t want it, don’t offer it.

Randonezh, your choice to have a family. Your choice to buy the house. Your choice to choose what you eat. Your choice to sleep in or not. Try sleeping in one day by choice and I’m sure you wont be out on the street starving. Freedom.

Yep. You know what? There are heaps of pricks out there like me. Pricks who aren’t paranoid but have their $30k car stolen last week from inside their garage.

Im SICK of being told to ‘heighten my security’. I’ve got alarms, locks, walls coming out of my bleeding red eyeballs.

Blah. You know what else? I dont care about what happens to crims. I dont care that they get screwed in a volkswagen when they get to prison. Yes, thats right, all the anal lube and even a powerpoint presentation can’t make me care.

I care about the safety of my young child. I care about my neighbours, friends, family and community; people that show me respect and dont try and screw with my small peaceful world. I care about the environment. And yes, I care about how my taxes are spent as I have to spend my time earning them. If you think that make me stupid, then, in your eyes I am.

Crims dont care about anyone but themselves…Let them rot.

tylersmayhem @ #13: Amen! Convicted criminals should, by default, not be given leisure facilities. But yes, they need rehabilitating, therefore, they should be given honest and useful work to do. They need to be given the opportunity to understand the value of labour, and its rewards.

Imagine how much cheaper it would be to build the Sydney-Canberra high speed rail link if there was affordable labour around?

I wouldn’t be against them getting paid for their labours – but obviously they would have to pay for their food and lodging. Heck, if they work well enough, maybe then they could be given a few weeks off each year to use some of the excellent leisure facilities that the Alexander Maconochie Holiday Retreat offers – but they would have to pay exhorbitant fees to use them with their hard-earned wages.. just like we all do when we go on vacation.

harvyk1 @ #8: Actually, most of the public don’t have that much freedom at all. For example, I can’t just sleep in when I want to – because I have a job because I have mouths to feed. I have bills to pay. I don’t have the ability to do what I want, when I want, because if I did, my family would have no roof over their heads. There are heaps of people who rely on me being at a particular place, at at particular time. Unlike the crims, I did not attempt to take what is not rightfully mine in order to get ahead.

As an aside, did you know that in the ACT, prison guards must refer to the prisoners as “Mister” , whereas in other places, the call them “Prisoner” .

Thumper. Most of those people get out never wanting to go back inside. Then they are back out and in no time the drugs have hold. Some are just criminally twisted. Some, overcome their old ways and survive. Its the first and last group of people that we have the most hope of rehabilitating. Id bet they are the vast majority of prisoners. To not bother with them is just feeding the jail system with your tax money. Its the cant be bothered with the hard questions that feeds crime.

Wondering if Jimmy boy will now get the MOD for calling me a wanker!? GOD you’ve upset me Jim!

HELL YES, my tax dollars are too important to be spent on these CRIMINALS! And who says I’m middle class. Talk about uneducated and broad generalisations. In fact, I now have suspicions that they also provide internet in this holiday camp, because it sounds like it’s coming from a CRIMINAL from the inside who wants MORE sympathy!

In fact, please come clean Jimmy! Where is your motivation for your rants. Mine is shallow tax money based, how about yours? Are you a parent of one of these criminals, or are you a rehabilitated criminal? Are you a retired screw who has had to look after them all these years (probably not if you have the misconception that the “inmates” will need “anal lube”). Wake up to your self sunshine and come clean.

dexi said :

I agree Nyssa. Positive works for adults as well as children. If you want to deter crime then tackle, substance abuse, sexual assault and mental illness. It might mean looking beyond locking people in a box and forgetting them.

You just hit the nail on the head.. This is where we should be focusing attention!

Jim, what is sssooooo wrong with putting these bogans to work?? That IS exercise!!!

Everyone else has to do it?? Isnt that the real rehabilitation?

And Im not even going to bother with the rest of your statement; I could be here for hours…

Footlose, your bum money isn’t total lost to the tax system. Thanks to GST the dealers pay when they buy their new HSV or big screen.

“Where is the deterrent to future criminal activity?”

The notion of making prison increasingly punitive as a ‘deterrent’ has been debunked so many times that it’s hardly worth repeating.

I note that the same argument is consistently made by supporters of the death penalty – “We should kill them, that’ll stop crime!” – and it has no effect whatsoever on crime rates (apart from driving risky violent crime from individuals who realise that they have ‘nothing to lose’ once they’ve committed a capital offence).

Proven effective means of reducing crime rates are related to socio-economic status (and, very importantly) education, and using the justice system as a form of rehabilitation – to prevent reoffence – rather than this “let’s hang ’em” kind of crap that’s going on in this thread.

If you’re serious about reducing crime, then it’s very clear about what has to be done. If you’re more interested in banging on about how people that commit crimes are evil (and won’t somebody think of the children, and my tax dollars are blah blah blah) then you’re a bigger part of the problem than most criminals out there. You’re also very very stupid.

Also, if you seriously think that prison is a really nice place, with ovals where everyone dances and picks flowers and has beautiful meals cooked for them, then I desperately, desperately want you to spend a couple of weeks in jail so you can have a holiday. I’ll even lend you a tube of anal lube to make the experience that little bit smoother.

Tylersmayhem is actually saying “I’m just asking them not to provide CRIMINALS with these facilities out of my hard earned tax money.”

There’s already too many spoilt, whining, socially blinkered middle-class pricks with over-inflated senses of self-entitlement and a paranoid view of ‘criminals’ (oh my god they’re out to get me). Now there’s one who wants to deny people food and exercise because he feels his tax dollars are too important. You utter wanker.

Sozza, shouldve been more like this…

We work our bums off to buy nice things (that they then steal) and pay our taxes. Then that money gets spent on nice cosy jails to put crims into, so they can network with other crims and plot their next crime after they are released into the wild again.

I agree Nyssa. Positive works for adults as well as children. The children are not suffering in horribly in this drought. They just have less choice. Im sure that their, hard work, honest, tax paying parents can put them in the car and drive them to one of the fields that are still being maintained. Sure it costs to swim in a public pool but we all have access.

To say that a prisoner has a priviledged life is just plain stupid. I can think of a few people in jail that I wouldnt want to spend five minutes with let alone have to share my living space. Pool or no pool. I think freedom is the greatest privilege, freedom of choice.
If you want to deter crime then tackle, substance abuse, sexual assault and mental illness. It might mean looking beyond locking people in a box and forgetting them.

“I back this idea 100%. I agree that physical activity is some of the best therapy there is. Put a shovel or a pick in their hands and get them out building the duplication of the GDE. I’m serious!”

Hell yes!! Put these thieving bastards on the chain-gang for a while and they’ll certainly appreciate their ‘free-time’ alot more.

Honestly, career crims must be laughing their a**es off at us.
We work our bums off to buy nice things that they then steal, and pay our taxes. Then that money gets spent on nice cosy jails to put crims into so they can network with other crims and plot their next crime after they are released into the wild again.

Jokes on us, I think.

Swaggie said :

Blondey – why can’t people exercise before they commit the crime given it’s so wonderful for the human spirit? They didn’t want to and I doubt they will while in prison.

Your “Hey Blonde” comment cracked me up. I found it humorous, but on the serious side, it was indicative of a society that makes judgements based on assumptions because someone’s opinion differs from that of an other. In actual fact I have very dark hair.

At the end of the day, regardless of differing opinions, the facts are: crime, violence, child abuse, stress related illness, suicides attributable to workplace issues, school yard bullying and depression are not going away, despite the billions of dollars per year thrown at these issues on a global scale.

You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to work out that the way we have been dealing with many of these issues in society… hasn’t worked! perhaps it is time to embrace the latest scientific evidence and address the problems at the source (before the maladaptive behaviour manifests), that way we will minimise the number of dysfunctional adults/potential prisoners we are breeding for the future.

This will enable the funds that are being allocated for the band aid solutions we currently deploy, to be spent on greening up school ovals and improving services for all the tax payers out there who feel they are currently getting a raw deal.

Jim, when kids don’t have an oval to play on but prisoners do, it’s kinda hard to swallow.

When they have ready access to a pool during a water shortage, it’s kinda hard to swallow.

Where is the deterrent to future criminal activity?

The gaol paid for by their victims and the rest of society who can and do adhere to the law. Why should they be treated ’special’ because they broke the law?

I guess it must be because they had a bad home life….(mantra of the bleeding heart), well so did others in society and they’ve never broken the law.

This need to reward prisoners is ridiculous. No one forced them to commit a crime. They made a choice knowing the consequences of their actions beforehand.

Enough pandering to the criminal element, especially when other members of society are missing out on tbe ‘basics’.

Perfectly put Nyssa!

dexi, why don’t you look at this little ‘gem’ then….

If children/teens participate in POSITIVE activities, they are less likely to participate in NEGATIVE things, thus they are less likely to end up a criminal.

FFS, it isn’t rocket science.

Thumper, I agree with you there. My local oval looks like a barren wasteland.

“Oh the Children. Oh my taxes”

Yes people other than criminals are stupid.

Jim, when kids don’t have an oval to play on but prisoners do, it’s kinda hard to swallow.

When they have ready access to a pool during a water shortage, it’s kinda hard to swallow.

Where is the deterrent to future criminal activity?

The gaol paid for by their victims and the rest of society who can and do adhere to the law. Why should they be treated ‘special’ because they broke the law?

I guess it must be because they had a bad home life….(mantra of the bleeding heart), well so did others in society and they’ve never broken the law.

This need to reward prisoners is ridiculous. No one forced them to commit a crime. They made a choice knowing the consequences of their actions beforehand.

Enough pandering to the criminal element, especially when other members of society are missing out on tbe ‘basics’.

pptvb said :

Thank You Jaq for actually spelling GAOL correctly!
I’m so sick of our print media “americanising” the english language.
Spleen vented.

I actually prefer “Jail” as opposed to “Gaol” …..

Put them to work I say.

I back this idea 100%. I agree that physical activity is some of the best therapy there is. Put a shovel or a pick in their hands and get them out building the duplication of the GDE. I’m serious!

Meanwhile, us law abiding citizens pay many a tax dollar to provide these sweethearts with better facilities than ANY government school and I’d dare to say, ANY private schools too. Where is my government provided basketball court, indoor swimming pool and TV room? Where is my government funded 3 meals a day?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not asking the government to give me these facilities – I’m just asking them not to provide CRIMINALS with these facilities out of my hard earned tax money.

Let them have the oval though – most local suburbs have one provided for free. I’ll meet the naysayer’s halfway.

Why the freakin’ hell do people think that prison is for punishment? It’s supposed to be for rehabilitation. Time and time again it’s been demonstrated that punishment is not an effective deterrent for criminal behaviour and that a punitive system of justice drastically increases rates of recidivism.

But oh no, all anyone here seems to care about is having their ‘rage’ justified and bleating on about how prisoners have all got it easy.

It’s gotta be trolling. No-one is really that stupid … surely.

If we have available water for a gaol sportsground – we have enough water to maintain the ones in the community. Maybe the kids at Chisholm Primary can go to the gaol and play sports each lunchtime – because they don’t have any maintained sports ground at their school…..

Thank You Jaq for actually spelling GAOL correctly!
I’m so sick of our print media “americanising” the english language.
Spleen vented.

Blondey – why can’t people exercise before they commit the crime given it’s so wonderful for the human spirit? They didn’t want to and I doubt they will while in prison.

OK, they get a swimming pool, TV, hot meals and an oval. We’ll I get all these, but I also have the freedom to travel where I like, meet with friends when I like, go to parties, go to pubs \ clubs, sleep in, eat what I want, work in the job that I want, and most of all live life without having to look over my shoulder 24 x 7 just in case.

The “perks” offered to the prisoners is nothing compared to what they are losing. The novelty of a swimming pool, TV and an oval will wear off very quickly. Shear boredom will set in very quickly, and unlike you or I who can say, screw this, I’m bored, I’m going home, these guys don’t have a choice.

What a shame that some people still think the best way to rehabilitate someone is through deprivation, humiliation and devaluation.
No, some of us think that the best way to punish people for committing crimes is to punish them. I’m unconvinced that putting people in a more luxurious environment than they came from counts as punishment, or as a deterrent to committing further crimes, no matter how many voluntary laps of the oval they do.

Still, call my bluff. If the 5-year recidivism rate is lower than other Aussie prisons, I’ll admit I’m wrong. Actually, let’s have the minister stake a year’s wages that the prison works better than less well-appointed facilities.

Where’s the part that is meant to make people want to stay out???

This article says:

Throughout 1995 and 1996, I surveyed 300 male prisoners aged 18 to 25 in New South Wales prisons. Seventy seven (26 per cent) of those surveyed stated that they had been sexually assaulted in prison at some time. Fifty per cent stated that they had been assaulted other than sexually. A greater percentage stated that they had been threatened with sexual or other assault.

Whilst I can see that rehabilitation is a better solution for getting these people back into society in a meaningful/productive way… The prison system is there as a means of punishment and removal from “normal” life.

From everything that I have read and heard about the prison, it doesn’t sound too bad. Televisions, swimming pools, playing fields, meals provided for you. Where’s the part that is meant to make people want to stay out???

While I’ve never been broken into myself, I can only imagine the rage I’d feel if I had to pay (through taxes) to rehabilitate someone who stole something that I had earned through my own hard work.

Put them to work I say.

Aren’t team sports supposed to teach working together, playing within the rules.
So they get to have fun, just makes it easier to suck them in.

I agree with jaq, there is far to much emphasis on locking people up in this day and age and not enough on why they are there in the first place.

And exercise is a great way to keep people focused and sane!

Full credit to the Government (well former Government) anyway for doing their best to make this prison one that attempts to rehabilitate some of the prisoners.

I know some of the people don’t want to be rehabilitated.. but jail should not be a way of getting rid of some troubled people from society and then hope when they are released in a few years time they won’t do it again. We have to try and break the cycle.

Well I have a couple of ovals all within walking distance so why not the prisoners?

Seriously, anything we can do to stop them finishing their sentence and coming and breaking into my house, I am willing to try. In the end don’t we want as many ex prisoners as possible to be employed in gainful employment post-sentence?