A fair go???

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

You have to remember that this is the world of IT contracting (and yes, I’m in IT and yes, I’ve worked under contract before). You ARE NOT a permanent employee. These things can and do happen periodically. That’s why you get paid more per hour to begin with – to compensate you for both lost benefits and this exact risk.

It still sucks. If it were me I’d be accepting the contract at the lower rate, but then continuing the search for a new job in the background. When something good came up, I’d take it and drop the old role.

Good point VY. I’m not an IT person so it didn’t occur to me that it was a largely contractor type industry.

justbands said :

> Whats the base salary for an IT contractor these days anyway ?

Depends what you’re doing. papadoc doesn’t seem too keen to clarify exactly what he does in IT for some reason…”general IT support” could be anything really.

For help desk, starting wage would be around $30-35K I guess, but you’d be hard pressed to hire a unix admin for less than $70K…so yeah, depends.

50k for an entry level service desk role.

No worries. 🙂

justbands said :

> it was when i started out. unless you have mac skills, unix seems to be living in the world of the IBM RS6000, Unisys or HP pro server space. Too rich for my blood.

Still not mainframe, it’s “midrange”.

ok, point taken. I don’t sell in that space, so i don’t pay attention…

> it was when i started out. unless you have mac skills, unix seems to be living in the world of the IBM RS6000, Unisys or HP pro server space. Too rich for my blood.

Still not mainframe, it’s “midrange”.

papadoc said :

I’m gonna end this all now by saying, life is hard and if I move on, great, if not, I’ll still be working for them in January, struggling with 35k a year. It’s not pretty, but at least it’s something right?

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate the support, have a Merry Christmas and I’ll post any further developments as I get them. PEACE!

papadoc,

can you please let me know how the other idea you had, the notebook repair business is going? is it still on the board, or not?

justbands said :

> you could ask them. I really don’t know, don’t play in the mainframe space.

Obviously….Unix ain’t mainframe! 🙂

(thanks though, I’ll drop you a line)

it was when i started out. unless you have mac skills, unix seems to be living in the world of the IBM RS6000, Unisys or HP pro server space. Too rich for my blood.

> you could ask them. I really don’t know, don’t play in the mainframe space.

Obviously….Unix ain’t mainframe! 🙂

(thanks though, I’ll drop you a line)

justbands said :

OPC looking for unix admins by any chance? I’m always up for keeping my options open.

you could ask them. I really don’t know, don’t play in the mainframe space. send me an email – peterdotholland98@gmaildotcom

OPC looking for unix admins by any chance? I’m always up for keeping my options open.

Danman said :

Whats the base salary for an IT contractor these days anyway ?

45k seems pretty low for a niche career (If it was 45k before you got a pineapple)

depends on the organisation.

I have a couple of clients that are pulling in six figures in contract work, others around the 45k mark.

Jazz said :

Thanks Peterh, was never really concerned about mine.

Jazz, checked with T. Bartram, at the Cisco do at Kamberra – he gave me the good oil. And i got him talking with a couple of people who are looking for staff.

seems to be a few in town looking for good people, OPC being one, but there are others.

You have to remember that this is the world of IT contracting (and yes, I’m in IT and yes, I’ve worked under contract before). You ARE NOT a permanent employee. These things can and do happen periodically. That’s why you get paid more per hour to begin with – to compensate you for both lost benefits and this exact risk.

It still sucks. If it were me I’d be accepting the contract at the lower rate, but then continuing the search for a new job in the background. When something good came up, I’d take it and drop the old role.

> Whats the base salary for an IT contractor these days anyway ?

Depends what you’re doing. papadoc doesn’t seem too keen to clarify exactly what he does in IT for some reason…”general IT support” could be anything really.

For help desk, starting wage would be around $30-35K I guess, but you’d be hard pressed to hire a unix admin for less than $70K…so yeah, depends.

Whats the base salary for an IT contractor these days anyway ?

45k seems pretty low for a niche career (If it was 45k before you got a pineapple)

Thanks Peterh, was never really concerned about mine.

>perhaps they will re-hire contractors as permanent staff at a lesser wage?

Usually permanent staff are paid less in hand then contractors. But they get things like more job security paid holiday and sick leave and paid training courses.

That is what being a contractor is about you take the risk and accept that you don’t get those things in return for being paid more.

I believe these days the trend is to do an Aminov and threaten to become torch-man. The media is all over you, everybody goes “awwwww, poor bugger” and the Minister falls over himself rushing to fix your problem.

35k ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

All this conversation and no mention of a union … do IT workers have one?

rosebud said :

I wonder if you are the only one being targeted like this? Your ratbag employer may be using a divide and conquer strategy, keeping everyone silent and in line. Shine a light, shame the devil.

lol. Employers need to survive, otherwise there will be no jobs at all.

More often than not, the greatest expense to business is their Salaries & Wages. As such, in times of less business they may need to trim the fat in all areas especially including staffing.

If you don’t like an employers conduct go elsewhere. Or alternatively start your own business and try to treat employees as you would have yourself treated.

Being terminated and offered another job straight away is better than being terminated altogether.

Reality bytes IT guy

I wonder if you are the only one being targeted like this? Your ratbag employer may be using a divide and conquer strategy, keeping everyone silent and in line. Shine a light, shame the devil.

*edit* That first line was meant to say I’m NOT the kind of person to create a sh*tstorm LOL

That’s exactly right. I’m the the kind of person to create a sh*tstorm, I just wanted to do my job, get paid and go home. I’m sure the media could have a field day with this, but it doesn’t put food on my table and doesn’t exactly stand me in a good light. I guess the reason I posted was to vent my frustrations and see whether what they did was illegal or just disgraceful.

I could name the company, but there’s good people who work there and I don’t want this to affect them. If for whatever reason they get shut down, I’m taking food of their table too.

Honestly, if I can’t find work I’ll sacrifice the 10k and head back there in January. It was a good place to work and I’m disappointed it has come out like this, but I’m not stupid, I know I’ve been lowballed and I know that there are avenues I can take to right this. The risk is that if I lose this job, there may not be another one. I’m not terrribly skilled and I’m in a position where I can’t afford to work part time and study.

I’m gonna end this all now by saying, life is hard and if I move on, great, if not, I’ll still be working for them in January, struggling with 35k a year. It’s not pretty, but at least it’s something right?

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate the support, have a Merry Christmas and I’ll post any further developments as I get them. PEACE!

A couple of things:
– if you were engaged as a contractor (i.e. not technically an employee) then you’re basically out of luck, because the protections in the Workplace Relations Act are only for employees.
– if it’s a small business (less than 100 employees) you’re probably out of luck as your case does not seem to constitute an unlawful dismissal under s.659 of the Workplace Relations Act
– if it’s a larger business, investigate your options re an unfair dismissal claim. I’d start by contacting the Workplace Ombdusman (http://wo.gov.au/). In fact, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to contact them anyway to get advice.

Also, regardless of all the above, if you are an employee you’re meant to get notice of termination (WR Act, s.661) or payment in lieu of notice. You should raise that with the employer or contact the Workplace Ombudsman if you didn’t get that.

CT might be interested. You would probably have to write the story for them in a press release. Ant has the picture organised. PB could probably take the photos for you. The trick with all media is giving them the whole story pre-packaged. They don’t like researching it themselves.

Problem with going public is, you risk never being employed again in your industry. I take it that’s why papadoc hasn’t named and shamed.

It is a shame those tabloid TV shows don’t have a presence down here, as this story would have them up and jumping for sure.

Sacked Working Family Man/Woman with a christmas in tatters (show children crying in front of half-dead xmas tree with no decorations) and an insulting offer to re-hire at slave wages.

they’d chase the employer all over the place and film him through his fly-screen.

I have two words of advice:

1. TODAY

2. TONIGHT

Thats fuct that these grubs dis this to you. I don’t know how much this will help but I turned your predicament into a poem:

Papadoc preach, I’m in trouble deep
Papadoc preach, I’ve been losing sleep
But I made up my mind, I’m keeping my baby, oh
I’m gonna keep my baby, mmm…

Skidd.

DarkLadyWolfMother said :

The ‘off the record’ reason I was given was that if a person works in a temporary position in the PS for 12 months or more, they must be made permanent.

I’m with Thumper.
You\they are wrong.

The Public Service Act (1999) has provisions about:
[Engagement for a non-ongoing vacancy] is limited to an initial period of eighteen months (engagements for periods of twelve months or more must be advertised in the Gazette)…
…may be extended up to three years in special circumstances…
…is limited to six months where the vacancy is pending filling by an ongoing employee…
…must be advertised in the Gazette and a merit selection conducted if the initial term is twelve months or beyond twelve months.

Vacancies must also be advertised in the Gazette if the initial period of the vacancy was for less than twelve months, but an extension to the original requirement results in the total term of the vacancy being more than twelve months.

But, as much as I enjoy arguing here, its 1635hrs on a payday and there’s a pub downstairs.

Don’t make money for a company that has spoilt your Christmas. Give them the finger and move on. Better still, name them so others don’t waste their time supporting a company that cares so little for it’s workforce.

Name the actual manager and Ill go around and burn his Christmas tree for you.

They seem to be in short supply around the traps…. especially at OPC 🙂

Oh dude – don’t do it to yourself! I agree with you though Papadoc, I wouldn’t go naming and shaming until you decide what you want to do. I seriously run it by over the phone with an appropriate authority if I were you.

In the meantime, I’d be looking high and low for another job, and continue to do so until you find one. I’d refuse to commit to them after pulling that kind of crap. Since you’ve only been there for a short time, I don’t suppose any kind of redundancy was offered? I wouldn’t imagine it’d be much. It sounds quite wrong and unfair to me. Have you told them that you are unsure if what they are doing is lawful?

There is still a bit of work around in support mate. What happened to your last job? I’m sure there were a few comments from you here a while ago about some of your employment plans?!

Good luck eitherway mate! That really sucks – merry f**kin’ Christmas!

There was some kind of requirement, from memory, in the old APS, to look at appointing people who were hired “continuously” for 12 months on contract. Most got round it by having a break between contracts of a few days. doing is over Xmas is just crummy.

I could never fathom why they were so reluctant to appoint people. They seemed to be scared of teh whole concept. if it didn’t involve being put in the gazette, address teh SC, panel i/v, 4 months to do the write-ups and get the delegate’s signature, they didn’t want to do it.

DarkLadyWolfMother said :

The ‘off the record’ reason I was given was that if a person works in a temporary position in the PS for 12 months or more, they must be made permanent. So to get around this, they do the fire/hire thing.

This sort of thing is now illegal, it used to be the case that EBAs could have rules in them preventing the use of hired labor for longer than a certain period of time. Many EBAs did this to prevent casualisation of their workforces and to prevent people from being held on perminent contractor status, where they could be fired at anytime.

Workchoices made it illegal and Fair Work Australia won’t make it legal again.

ant, about 15 years back I was hired on a short term contract in the Public Service. I was then ‘retrenched’ before Christmas, and rehired n January, as were a few others.

The ‘off the record’ reason I was given was that if a person works in a temporary position in the PS for 12 months or more, they must be made permanent. So to get around this, they do the fire/hire thing.

I don’t know if it’s the truth. I can tell you the person was sober when they told me.

PsydFX said :

peterh said :

perhaps they will re-hire contractors as permanent staff at a lesser wage?

Or perhaps those contractors will go out and work for service companies and get hired out to the departments at an over inflated rate.

yeah, I forgot. single source contracts… Bring back DAS!

peterh said :

perhaps they will re-hire contractors as permanent staff at a lesser wage?

Or perhaps those contractors will go out and work for service companies and get hired out to the departments at an over inflated rate.

realityskin said :

peterh said :

but the big sting will come when the Gershon recommendation is implemented, and the numbers of Govt contractors are cut back.

I still can’t see how they are going to achieve that without culling the amount of work done.

perhaps they will re-hire contractors as permanent staff at a lesser wage?

Its not really vary fair but we have no way of knowing unless you tell us how you were Employed. Were you casual, part time, full time or part time? because that will make a big difference about what they can do.

peterh said :

but the big sting will come when the Gershon recommendation is implemented, and the numbers of Govt contractors are cut back.

I still can’t see how they are going to achieve that without culling the amount of work done.

Papadoc, you actually want to talk to the AIRC, they are still responsible for unfair and illegal dismissal. Their number is 1300 799 675 and you need to lodge any illegal dismissal case within 31 days of being sacked, so get in quick (you can apply for an extension, but its better to avoid that).

The other people you want to talk to are the workplace ombudsman, they are on 1300 724 200 and can take legal action if your rights have been breached.

Keep in mind that workplaces under 100 employees are still exempt from UNFAIR dissmissal laws, however, they are not exempt from UNLAWFUL dismissal. It is important to remember this because you don’t want to let people tell you that you don’t have a case – your case is about illegal behavior, not unfair dismissal.

Or you could call your union and get them to do all of that on your behalf.

RandomGit said :

ah, looks like that’s been seen to then. Jolly good Pete.

RandomGit, I am certain i know you….

there are at least 2 resellers in town that i know of, looking for staff.

The cleansing in several major multinationals has been completed to a large degree – was happy to see Jazz wasn’t in the redundancies, but the big sting will come when the Gershon recommendation is implemented, and the numbers of Govt contractors are cut back.

If all else fails, Papadoc, you could get a job as a sales person. They seem to be in short supply around the traps…. especially at OPC 🙂

What a joke… I would definitely be contacting DEEWR in regards to the contract…

ah, looks like that’s been seen to then. Jolly good Pete.

RandomGit said :

papadoc, if you are Infrastructure support then I think OPC are expanding into small business outsourcing right now. They sure could use a few more brains and a lot less account managers 😉

less account managers?? are you serious? there are only 5 AM’s there, far more techs….

worth trying, but if you are really stuck, papadoc, send me an email, I will touch a couple of guys i know and see what is around the traps…

Cameron said :

You’ll find DEEWR will be all over them like a rash if you report them.

Agree. They’ve breached several laws that I can see. Sick ’em Rex.

You’ll find DEEWR will be all over them like a rash if you report them.

Good luck big guy, hope it all goes well.

Well, I’d like to name and shame but the fact is that if by mid January I haven’t got a job, I’ll probably just go back. All I was doing was IT support, nothing fancy, but JB I’ll re-add you on Facebook and fill you in.

As far as there being 2 sides to the story, there really isn’t much else. I’d been off sick for a couple of days but that was about it. I really enjoy working there and they’re a bunch of cool people but I just felt like I got a bit shafted today. All I wanted was to work up until xmas so I could pay bills, get presents etc. and now because of this, my xmas is gonna suck royally.

It’s all good, I’m just gonna try and get some Christmas casual work and look elsewhere after the break. Thanks for the responses though, if I find something in the meantime I’m gonna write a nice letter to DEEWR and see what they have to say about it all.

given my contract

Did they breach the first contract by terminating you? Did they coerce you into accepting the second contract?

If not, then it seems like a pretty straightforward way of using market power to cut costs to me: you’re too expensive for us now, our contract won’t let us reduce your rate, so we’ll can you and find somebody cheaper – including you, if you accept a new contract with a lower price.

The alternative would’ve been protracted negotiations as they asked you nicely to lower your rate, you telling them to get nicked, and them terminating you anyway.

There’s a spare VB lying around in Ainslie.

I am an IT worker and several vacant positions have been given the chop. We only lost one staff member, but we are still overworked and underappreciated. The management keeps asking us for our feedback on how to improve the workplace and the answer is always “more staff”. This suggestion always gets ignored. I worked at Unisys once and it was the same deal, except they eventually realised it was a problem after half of their staff left (including myself). I have had far worse jobs, but it could be a lot better. I wish you the best in finding a new job papadoc.

shooting……

correction, expanding their outsourcing in general.

RandomGit said :

Cameron, need any freelance development expertise?

Not right this second but that can change from time to time. Feel free to shoot me your CV.

Cameron said :

realityskin said :

For free though ..

I have been known to work for beer.

I have a spare beer somewhere. I’ll get your number off Jode.

papadoc, if you are Infrastructure support then I think OPC are expanding into small business outsourcing right now. They sure could use a few more brains and a lot less account managers 😉

A gov’t dep’t years ago recruited a team of 6 of us for a “project” (although it was part of that dep’t’s ongoing work). We were contracted up to Xmas. Then they happily told us they’d re-contract us after Xmas. Pig’s Arse was the general concensus, and after a beer or so at the local, we all scattered.

Come the new year, settled in my new job and being paid a lot more, i got a plaintive phone call wanting to know where we all were.

Gorn.

Cameron, need any freelance development expertise?

Name and Shame for sure. They sound like shifty pricks, I wouldn’t re-sign for them. No fcuking way.

The IT jobs market in canberra has been flooded lately with a lot of redundencies, not the least of which is the HP cleaning of the EDS house. They are even dropping staff they still need.

So if you don’t like it and refuse, they have plenty of newbs to pick from. Especially in the infrastructure support sphere.

Good developers are, as ever, still hard to find. Plenty with credentials min you, just few with full Bachelors as a minimum.

With a partner who works in IT I too am curious who the company is. Could you hint? Is it a local, national or international company? Where are the offices located?

It definitely sounds really unfair, good luck in your job search papadoc.

I thought Gillard killed all this sort of stuff off last month?

So they’ve sacked you for the down period over Xmas and dropped your pay?

Name and shame.

Actually I believe you still couldn’t do this under workchoices. It was a common complaint that was supposedly unlawful. Am I wrong?

It doesn’t sound very legal to me papadoc so you could probably whoop some legal ass if you wanted to.

realityskin said :

For free though ..

I have been known to work for beer.

You just got railed.

Even if you don’t name and shame, you could post a scan of the letter (and offer) with company name obscured.

Sounds like the scrip of one of the Labor propaganda ads of last year

For free though ..

Okay, just give me a call

Cameron come around and get rid of Vundo for me

Sounds pretty freakin illegal to me.

Also sounds remarkably like WorkChoices.

This is why we had workplace protection laws in teh first time. Many employers are not very fair, at all. This is disgusting!!!!!! And I bet it’s illegal, too. On a number of fronts.

Get on to the Employment Advocate, although i have a dim memory that they’ll direct you to the local territory version first. Even if you go off finding another job, do soemthing about this crowd. It’s really quite outrageous.

Yes, I may have the need for a network administrator’s services in the very near future. Ongoing work. Contact me through http://www.in2itive.com.au

Well it’s very simple for the other side to give a response.

This doesn’t surprise me, I also though sending the letter in the post rather that sitting you down was pretty gutless.

As others have asked, what type of IT guy are you?

The whole IT shebang is tightening at the moment, I think this will the tip of the iceberg.

Methinks this is only one side of a story.
(IE: Less than half)

Name and shame……………

Wow. That is dodgy. I’d name & shame personally.

What variety of IT guy?