A sign of the times?

Exactly how do you categorize a hippy or a redneck these days anyway? Because I could be labeled a long haired, uni educated, environment loving, pot smoking hippy, but I eat meat, love blasting bunnies with shotguns, and have never seen the inconvienent truth. So am I a redneck hippy or what?

And is Uber a vegan or just a ass clown?

If you people have finished your love in, can we please get back to the business of heaping crap on this butt-hole?

Having had a quick browse of the wiki definition of utalitarian ethics, I think that my arguments concerning this topic can all be supported within the utalitarian framework.

With a global view of the wellbeing of all species of plants and animals (including humans) I would say that shooting the ‘roos, and consuming the meat locally in a way that reduces our dependence on factory farming, long distance transporting of food products, and all the other inputs and consequences related to the production of nutrition for humans and their pets.

This option would have the greatest benefit in the long term world view for all species.

That seems pretty ethical to me.

Wow. Didn’t think my issue with poxy signs would go this far. Here’s my opinion, good luck changing it.

1: They’re f@cking Kangaroo’s! Seriously, they’re pests and if 500 were killed tomorrow, would anybody even notice?

2: My mate goes roo hunting on his property all the time. I assure you that if any John Butler listening, hemp pants wearing, nimbin visiting, Prius driving, haircut missing, Inconvenient Truth loving hippie decided to put up a bedsheet on his fence with a protest slogan on it, they would probably get shot too.

3: Sure animals have feelings, but I bet you still eat fish right? Wear leather shoes? Like the piano? Don’t discriminate for the cute animals because in the grand scheme of things, life will go on with or without these roo’s.

4: Skippy was a shit show.

5: So what if people are rednecks? You say it like it’s a bad thing. Kinda like a hippy or a Liberal voter.

6: They’re gonna starve to death anyway, so who cares if they cop a bullet to the head?

Ubermensch – You pompous jumped up little butt-monkey. I’m sorry but it’s a fact that your dumb-ass undergraduate attempts to laud what you view as your intellectual superiority over others simple marks you as class-A tool. You claim that those who aren’t retarded enough to follow your ideology are ethically corrupt or intellectually unable to grasp what are essentially quite simple concepts simply marks you out as just another sad vegan ar$ewipe.

There’s a reason the books you read have dust on them when you pull them from the library shelf – Singer, Mill and Bentham are irrelevant to everyone other that the oxygen bandit art students studying ethics 101 – which we can conclude – you’re so happy about having been accepted into you’ve decided to go on line and pontificate about what is essentially a simple land management issue.

The fact that there are other, genuinely endangered species on the same land and the fact that the over-grazing of the land by the macropods is placing real pressure on the viability of these populations seems to be irrelevant to you – it’s just an inconvenient intrusion on your vegan wet dream.

2,. first mention of ethics – I too was somewhat taken aback at ubermench’s claim that s/he was all about the ethics – infact, upon reading earlier statements:

Pathological sadism – it’s actually a serious problem that the three of you clearly need to seek help for. You seem to actively enjoy the suffering (and death) of others.

I would expect such an attitude from, say, a bunch of Texan rednecks; but I find myself surprised that these sorts of juvenile remarks can originate in Canberra.

More and more, this website is turning into a refuge for Canberra’s (largely ostracised) redneck community to exchange their pathetic vitriol.

I can’t find any, even the most barely remote links to ethics in a lot of those previous statements. I think some kind of weirdly named german uber machine has tried to play a fastball on a site where in order to find historical information all you have to do is scroll up.

But, since you would like to talk about ethics now, lets talk ethics. I second Piperdoon’s comment 3: 3. reread other posts dumbass. You do know that premature spouting is a sign of prematurity in other areas don’t you ?

You will find a lot of questioning on the ethics of the decision, and the decision making process made by the same people who are now posting in response to you. Surely you utalitarians aren’t so onanistic to simply exclude other people opinions just on the point that they don’t hold the same values as you ?

IMHO thats not utalitarian at all – your on some weird tangent.

Oh, and to satisfy my curiosity, do you eat meat ubermensch ?

@ubermensch i’d hardly qualify as a redneck, and i’m quite familiar with the works of bentham and mill which you seem to think are prerequistes for a sensible discussion of the topic. i think you are completely wrong with your ideas about this topic. The kangaroos if left alone will starve to death. This is a fact, agreed upon by the experts who have much deeper knowledge of the situation than both of us, and a much less biased viewpoint than yourself. just because you do not agree with their findings does not make them incorrect, (btw look at the RSPCA’s record of criticising the act govt. before you cast aspersions on wether or not their findings are influenced by act govt funding)
In my opinion it would be absolutely unethical to allow the animals to die a slow painful death from starvation, translocation is not a viable option so a cull by lethal injection is the most humane, ethical way to go.
as for the bbq i think it’s a great idea, kangaroo meat is tasty, and winding up hippies who take themsleves too seriously (i do mean you by this) is fun.
p.s. most of this sites respondants are quite well educated and laugh at your attempts at intellectual snobbery….wow you can name some philosphers guess we all better marvel at your superior intellect..idiot.

Ubermensch – “I really don’t know why I bother wasting my time on this forum. I’ve heard more intelligent arguments come out of my dog’s arse.

Does anybody have an intellectual conscience any more??? Does anybody actually care about the robustness of their argument??? I don’t care if a couple of you have ‘resource management degrees’ – you need to go back to uni (for those who’ve been at all) and take a few first-year courses on constructing logical arguments, presenting evidence and doing applied ethics.

In the end, what we are discussing here is the ETHICS of a particular scenario. And the simple fact is that the alternative options to killing the kangaroos have NOT been properly considered”

1. piss off
2,. first mention of ethics
3. reread other posts – I for one mentioned that I believe the arguments for dismissing the dart and move option are being dismissed on the basis of old ‘facts’ to cover someoneone’s bum
4. pragmatism will rule the day
5. book learning is no substitute for real world learning
6. there’s millions of the buggers and few hundred more or less is neither here nor there
7. big brown eyes and fluffy fur don’t count for much in the real world
8. piss off and stop moaning – weight of posts should tell you that

so why do we the act resies have to pay for this, why doesn’t ACTEW just fund it ?

Considered pissing off then?

I really don’t know why I bother wasting my time on this forum. I’ve heard more intelligent arguments come out of my dog’s arse.

Does anybody have an intellectual conscience any more??? Does anybody actually care about the robustness of their argument??? I don’t care if a couple of you have ‘resource management degrees’ – you need to go back to uni (for those who’ve been at all) and take a few first-year courses on constructing logical arguments, presenting evidence and doing applied ethics.

In the end, what we are discussing here is the ETHICS of a particular scenario. And the simple fact is that the alternative options to killing the kangaroos have NOT been properly considered (at least not by the ACT Government or the two “expert groups” involved in this issue – who happen to be directly funded by the Government). Yet you lot continue to blow wind up each other’s arses with highly dubious arguments whilst licking your lips in gleeful anticipation of the roo slaughter. Apart from your quite scary lack of sensitivity to the slaughter of animals, I can honestly say that, given the standard of reasoning and presentation of evidence that has been applied in this forum, the vast bulk of you would be lucky to receive even a pass grade in ANY first-year Ethics class in ANY university in this country.

Thumper was 100% correct, I am not a tree-hugging, dreadlock wearing, pot-smoking hippie, or whatever; I am simply a utilitarian putting forward an argument that is more or less based on the philosophy of utilitarians such as Peter Singer, J.S Mill and Jeremy Bentham. Utilitarianism is not a ‘hippie’ philosophy for deadbeat protestors on the fringe of society; on the contrary, it is a highly robust philosophy that is far beyond the reach of your juvenile and amateurish criticisms.

So go learn about it, do some reading, and then, maybe just then, I will be happy to continue this discussion with you.

Until then, you’re only giving me a headache (from shaking it in utter disbelief all day long), giving Canberra a bad name and reinforcing the strength of my initial remark: “this website is turning into a refuge for Canberra’s (largely ostracised) redneck community to exchange their pathetic vitriol.”

Sounds like ubermensch is happy to let the roos die of starvation. Tool.

So anyway, when’s this RiotACT Kangaroo BBQ happening then? I had a Kangaroo+Beer pie from Cornucopia today, sensational!

the carcasses aren’t wasted. they go back into the earth. they continue on the cycle of atoms and shit. (that is the actual name of the cycle ‘atoms and shit’ if you don’ believe me then you should look it up).

If you answer the question ‘do you believe in creationism or evolution?’ we know what kind of belief system you follow.

Similarly, if I ask the question do you believe in ‘environmentalology’ (faith based feelgoodness), or ‘environmentalism’ (science based study) you can see why in practice we need to follow a science-based approach.

It is cruel to let them die (the roos) of starvation, cruel to move them and irresponsible to let this happen on Defence land. The smartest environmental managers in the ACT and region recommend a cull. It is humane (and without it how many would we have to cull next year?)

My only gripe is that by lethal injection the carcasses are wasted (are they?) instead of made into something useful like pet meat or a community BBQ. We didn’t let the pine trees from the 2003 fires go to waste merely because it was upsetting to see them all die?

As always the protesters are loud minority on the fringes of society.

Wouldn’t it be better if theses protesters setup a co-op and hunted the roos over time to save on their uni/recreation costs?

oh, now I AM dreaming.

I eat meat, and I am above the kangaroo on the food chain. The only uppercut was on ubermensch, and it was a knockout blow – the only unfortunate thing about the situation is it wasn’t physical, because you are still bleating.

Ingee’s comment was not strictly about the day to day activities of animal welfare organisations as your response was – It was about nothing being achieved by misplaced emotion.

Attack all you may my own position of finding it funny, and Australian, to have a dig at the protesters by doing the exact opposite across the road – but think about that for a few seconds.

I can take my BBQ, put it in my ute, stop by woolies and pick up some kanga snags and some kanga steaks, and head straight to the BBQ site from there.

Kangaroo is in the food chain, like it or not. Go protest at woolies you lentil eating numnut.

Upon bothering to do a little bit of research on my comments (since you are free with your own bothering to do research statements), you will find that I have been putting forward alternative methodologies, such as why is there a need for a fence around an empty paddock, hence the natural dispersal of the captive kangaroos via Canberra’s vaunted nature strips, or emptying a nearby school for a day to do a massive drive off the land by several thousand youngsters – among others.

I too have a lot of experience in Natural Resource Management, and I can see from a long way off this is a battle that cannot be won on the back of a lentil fart, or the person providing it. Nor is it a fight that needs to be fought, except as accurately portrayed earlier, by the meat industry at the waste of valid product, not the animal welfare industry.

As a matter of curiosity, do you eat meat ?

Ubermensch, you still haven’t addressed my assertion that the whole premise of your angst is based on the fact that the culling of animals doesn’t sit politely with your tofu fueled vision of fantasy land rather than any ethical high ground. I’ll say it again – typing slowly this time so you don’t miss anything – You people seem to want everyone else to care just because you do, which is plainly illogical. Just because you care it doesn’t necessarily follow that others, equipped with the same information, will feel the same way.

Suggesting that they’re wrong, ignorant, or stay out in the sun too long without turning up our collars for coming to a different position on the issue simply makes you look a bit of a knob.

These groups that you speak of, working frantically to save little-bo-peeps charges from hungry punters looking for a kebab, trying to put a halt to Bambi’s inevitable rendezvous with a red wine jus or saving Skippy from becoming a sausage seem to me like wankers – all frantic action, but in the end it’s just going to be messy and they’ll be left with the vague feeling of embarrassed dissatisfaction.

ubermensch

you have your ideas and i have mine. mine aren’t as fashionable as yours, but mine are born of logic, not emotion. to be perfectly honest, i wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with the scenarios you put forward, but here is not the place to reason why. suffice to say the kangaroo issue is basically an over-charged emotion fest (look at the indignant indigenes on the news last night, a race not known for exemplary animal tenderness) and in such circumstances no amount of reasoned debate will have the slightest impact on the bleaters and morally indignant whingers polluting these forums…

*sigh* You make one offhand wisecrack about BBQs…

Sorry uber, but I’m about as far from redneck as you can sensibly get. And I stress that word, sensibly. Unless, of course, you define “redneck” as anyone who eats meat.

My crack wasn’t so much at the plight of the kangaroos as at what I see as misplaced righteousness on the part of the protestors.

Yes, these animals are going to be killed. But the senselessness of the killing is something we obviously wouldn’t agree on. Inhumane? Get real. The proposed method is about as humane as your going to get under any circumstance. Have you ever been on the killing floor of an abattoir? It makes what’s in store for the roos look like a Christmas present. Yet I don’t see any of our self-appointed guardians of animal ethics camping outside the local slaughterhouses. Why? Cows and sheep aren’t cuddly enough for you? Or you know that such a protest wouldn’t advance your own political agenda?

Killing sentient creatures? Then why aren’t you picketing every store that sells Ratsac and mousetraps. Or aren’t they sentient enough for you?

My only real problem with the cull falls along the lines of what I think it was p1 said, that the meat isn’t being put to use. If it was, would you still have a problem with the cull? If so, why? If it was 400 cows marked for death, would the protestors still be camped outside the reserve, or would they find another sexy cause that would guarantee them their few minutes of fame on the telly?

This could all be solved with a couple of passes by an F/A-18 Hornet. The 20mm cannon and a few 500lb bombs would have the roos nicely choped and diced in the blink of an eye; and if a few unwashed, rent-a-crowd protesters just happened to get in the way, well there’s an unexpected bonus.

spare me the pained personal attacks – I’m not interested in tree huggers vegan diatribes – the roos will die one way or another – if we can translocate them good, otherwise a bullet or dart and tranq works – I don’t support cruelty but even our ‘normal’ meat industry has its otherwise apparent cruelties. I eat meat – I like it – I’m on top of the food chain. Legislate, monitor whatever, but sometimes animals have to die – it’s part of normal land management, and I do have a degree in natural resource management – so spare me the what would you know as well…..

Ingeegoodbee, if you’d bothered to do any research to back your fanciful claim, you would have noticed that the VAST BULK of animal welfare/liberation groups in this country DO spend the VAST BULK of their time lobbying against the excesses of the animal meat industry, including factory farming, live exports AND the practice of shooting kangaroos for meat (which often leaves joeys orphaned to slowly starve to death and adult kangaroos hopping around the bush with half their jaw blown off). See Animals Australia, the second biggest animal welfare group in Australia (after the RSPCA): http://www.animalsaustralia.org/

I’m afraid that Ingeegoodbee has only given himself an uppercut. piperdoon and Mælinar: you were obviously too busy rubbing Ingeegoodbee’s arse to notice.

“Off topic a little bit, but I think the Navy want to kill the Lawson roos and prevent them from entering the food chain. There are various reports of dioxins on that site, and these may be in the roos”

This is true – not the reason to kill but the dioxin stuff – there are known dioxin sites at Lawson – and lots of unknown ones. Tonnes of early communications equipment, batteries etc have been buried on the site over the past few decades. The Navy really has no idea where all the stuff is and what state it’s in.

Will be interesting to see what re-hab of the land will be done before housing blocks are sold there…

If only the Kangaroo meat industry had the selling power of MLA – we’d all be eating sustainable native red meat three times a week instead of that European bovine stuff!

I second that

“Every night of every week of every month in this country professional hunters are earning a living shooting ‘roos and do we hear a peep from the animal ethics hair-shirt brigade? – tumbleweed rolls by – nothing. I doubt that this whole hoopla is little more than a bit of a jolly for a bunch of vegan douche-bags.”

A firm upper cut by Ingeegoodbee, ubermensch (pretensions here??)reels back, Ingeegoodbee takes a strong points lead

ubermensch, my position on the suffering of others isn’t an ethical issue. There’s nothing to be achieved by missplaced emotion – my caring or otherwise would do nothing for the dim-wits in Israel and Palestine intent on blowing each other up, nor those butchering each other in Africa or the Balkans – their business is theirs to manage and besides they probably brought it upon themselves by believing in a god, or being communists or placing their trust in dictators or whatever.

I find the wailing an gnashing of teeth over the culling of Canberra’s macropods by the animal welfare muppet-brigade disingenuous. Every night of every week of every month in this country professional hunters are earning a living shooting ‘roos and do we hear a peep from the animal ethics hair-shirt brigade? – tumbleweed rolls by – nothing. I doubt that this whole hoopla is little more than a bit of a jolly for a bunch of vegan douche-bags.

3 post nutbag

Everyone else – as I said earlier: “this website is turning into a refuge for Canberra’s (largely ostracised) redneck community to exchange their pathetic vitriol.”

Ingeegoodbee, your ethical views are about as sophisticated as my hairy butt-hole, but at least you’re honest…. You would have made a good gas-chamber attendant for the Nazi’s: ‘oh well, I suppose it’s a bit sad… but do I care? NO’

JD114, I’ve heard your argument a thousand times before. It’s an argument bandied about by people who are generally new to bioethical debates and the ethics of animal treatment. And clearly you haven’t thought through the implications of your stance.

Are you suggesting that “intelligence” is the core measure that we employ to determine the extent to which we consider a sentient being’s interests? If so, does that mean that you wouldn’t have a problem with the idea of lining up 400 severely mentally disabled humans and giving them a lethal injection?? What about new born babies?? And old senile people with dementia??

For your information, intelligence has nothing to do with one’s capacity to suffer. As the utilitarian philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, has put it:

“The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may one day come to be recognized that the number of legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or perhaps the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day or a week or even a month, old. But suppose they were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, Can they reason? Nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?”

You know, I’d never thought of combining French-derived spice combinations and food styles with Australian wildlife until just now.

I may just have to go and shoot a roo through the eye to try the latest taste sensation.

The Canberra Times today included a nice recipe for Cajun spiced kangaroo.

and you want to bleat about your right to demonstrate ‘Aussie humour’??? – yes.

Nary’s the day when the media started reporting news about shit that hasn’t even happened yet, thus giving birth to you protesting wanker organisations.

I would prefer a general news obligation to only present information that has actually happened to sort the wheat from the chaff in an industry gone stupid.

I’m off to teach self-defence techniques to that mob standing over the road from the Chinese Embassy.

sentient beings? perhaps but only just. in general aussie animals such as roos wombats and koalas are almost bereft of any meaningful intelligence. this is due to the harshness of the aussie climate over the aeons (the brain uses an inordinate percentage of the resources available to the body, ergo a small brain can mean a survivor through particularly lean times). so to describe the upcoming cull as cruel to the roos is just being plain stupid. the roo gets a pinprick from a dart much less painful than a march fly bite, slips into unconsciousness (no not the john howard voter type of lethargy, I mean real unconsciousness) and is despatched with another needle. about as cruel to the kangaroos as the cruelty inflicted on my eyesight when a chrome bumper bar reflects sunlight into my eyes…

I’m up for the bbq
Fed up with the tree huggers who are happy for the animals to starve (although there’s some debate about grass levels there too) and who don’t/can’t accept that sometimes the ‘kindest’ option is a bullet.
I would like more info on the drug and transport option though – I think someone’s bum is being covered with old data or reports used to justify excluding that option.

Still, a good roo burger is nice…. – “onions and dioxin with that?”

My only problem with this issue is that nooone’s yet given details for the when and where for the massive roo bbq!

Off topic a little bit, but I think the navy want to kill the Lawson roos and prevent them from entering the food chain. There are various reports of dioxins on that site, and these may be in the roos.

I would be very interested to know if this is true. If it is, then at least it would be a reason to “waste” them. It might also be a good reason not to transport them, as there would then be contaminate ‘roos roaming loose, ending up good knows where…

We are facing a situation in which over 400 sentient creatures are about to be given a lethal injection…

I am moved by the waste involved in killing 400 ‘roos, which have been produced in a much more sustainable way then any of the beef or sheep killed each day in this country. If a sheep farm passes its stocking capacity (through increased numbers, or decreased condition of the land) then they sent them to market, and people consume the meat products in order to remain alive. They do not poison them and bury them in the ground.

…an event which you seem to be utterly unmoved by…

If you are against any exploitation or killing of animals for human benefit, then I recognise that this cull would be abhorrent to you. If, like me, you survive by consuming (and enjoying) the eating of meat (as part of the balanced diet), then you should be outraged not by the killing of these animal, but by the wasting of their lives by not utilizing the energy which is stored in their carcases.

…and you want to bleat about your right to demonstrate ‘Aussie humour’???

If this was a protest about Japanese whaling and the Chinese killing pandas (not that they do), then I would find the concept of standing across the road selling whale burgers and panda nuggets pretty funny. Of course, as many people have pointed out, there are a somewhat limited supply of whales (not even vaguely sustainable farming practice), where is ‘roos have been harvested for years without a decline in the population.

If this scenario involved humans receiving lethal injections, would you be similarly unmoved? If not, then the burden of argument is on you to explain why the interests of kangaroos – who are just as capable of suffering as Homo sapiens – should be given less consideration than humans.

See this is where all you animal wellfare muppets go wrong. You frame the whole debate in a context that says we should care, which is plainly illogical. Just because you care it dosn’t necessaily follow that others, aware of the same information, should care as well. And the people vs animals thing is just bollocks too but for the record no, I probably wouldn’t care – unless maybe I personally knew someone who was amongst those being put down – the same way as I’m not particularly fussed by Jews and Arabs killing each other, ethnic massacres in Africa or the Balkans of for that matter the people who die on Australias roads every year – these things are sad, yes, but do I care … no.

Off topic a little bit, but I think the navy want to kill the Lawson roos and prevent them from entering the food chain. There are various reports of dioxins on that site, and these may be in the roos.

if we then eat these roos, and get poisoned from the dioxins, then bang will go the roo meat industry!

We are facing a situation in which over 400 sentient creatures are about to be given a lethal injection – an event which you seem to be utterly unmoved by – and you want to bleat about your right to demonstrate ‘Aussie humour’???

If this scenario involved humans receiving lethal injections, would you be similarly unmoved? If not, then the burden of argument is on you to explain why the interests of kangaroos – who are just as capable of suffering as Homo sapiens – should be given less consideration than humans.

I don’t understand what could possibly be sadistic about a sausage sizzle … It’s a great idea and I have no doubt that groups like PETA would be strong supporters of such a plan.

Make sure you grill up lots of onion as well, the combined smell of grilled onion and sausages is almost irresistable to an Aussie with a pulse.

Yep, another troll comes out from under their rock to attack the long standing tradition of Aussie humour.

Its perfectly Australian to stand opposite any protest site and offer them the direct opposite of what they are protesting about – its exactly what we collectively find funny.

I too, support the skippy bbq idea. It’s funny and I think it would be a rollikingly great day.

Pathological sadism – it’s actually a serious problem that the three of you clearly need to seek help for. You seem to actively enjoy the suffering (and death) of others.

I would expect such an attitude from, say, a bunch of Texan rednecks; but I find myself surprised that these sorts of juvenile remarks can originate in Canberra.

More and more, this website is turning into a refuge for Canberra’s (largely ostracised) redneck community to exchange their pathetic vitriol.

“I’m tempted to set up a BBQ across the road from them on the weekend and offer kangaroo steak sandwiches for sale ;-)”

-That’s awesome. I would definitly help you out with that one. Dumb ass hippies…

filthy hippies

I actually live in the units right across the road from the protest. They’ve even strung some of their banners up next to our driveway. I’m tempted to set up a BBQ across the road from them on the weekend and offer kangaroo steak sandwiches for sale 😉