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Accident on Canberra Avenue today

By boneymaloney 18 July 2010 38

Canberra Avenue in Fyshwick was blocked off today for hours after about ten AM (Saturday), for what looked like a bad accident just East of the Canberra Ave/Monaro intersection. In fact, within spitting distance of the location where the police pursuit ended badly a couple of months ago.

Does anybody know what was up? There was a sheet erected as we passed, so I’m guessing some poor motorcyclist got whacked.

UPDATE: UrbanAdventure.org has sent in this pic with the following note:

crash site

I was driving in to Civic on Saturday as it was a fine and sunny day, just right for some photography. At the intersection of Canberra Avenue and the off ramps from the Monero Highway I noticed the traffic lights were flashing and the road was blocked off. I thought, oh no, not another accident, not really expecting there to be one. Sure enough, in almost the same spot that Mully wiped out a family, there was another accident. It was so sad to see yet again.

Judging from the marks on the road and the position of the vehicles involved, it would appear that a motorcycle travelling along Canberra Ave towards Queanbeyan has collided at speed with a utility travelling south from Ipswich street. I’m not attributing blame there, as clearly I have no way of telling who was doing what, and who, if anyone went through a red light. It would appear though that some one would have to have had to run a red light, or that some one was not paying attention to what they were doing.

Overall, very sad, more so considering the location. Obviously some lessons are not being learned. I wish the survivors a speedy recovery, and the friends and family of those that died all the best at this time.

Images Copyright 2010 UrbanAdventure.org. Free to use by not for profit organisations and The-RiotAct.com, fees apply for commercial use.

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Accident on Canberra Avenue today
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georgesgenitals 7:26 am 20 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

How many cars are there, George? Let’s forget what you see, because I see them multiple times every single day. Let’s just stick to hard facts. How many cars? After that, we’ll ask harder questions, like ‘How many is enough?’ Your research and policy skills will really shine.

Good on you. I sure don’t, and seeing the way people break road rules regularly, neither do they. Who really cares how many cars there are – if they aren’t visibly contributing to compliance, it’s irrelevant.

And I wouldn’t be hassling someone about their research skills given your mad skillz shown in this thread.

Ceej1973 12:02 am 20 Jul 10

And what about people paying attention to the road and whats around them too. Sure, when another vehicle comes at you at speed, the chances of avoiding a collision are reduced, or when someone is on a suicide mission playing with a mobile or the radio crosses the other side of the road, the chances of avoiding a head on are reduced. But in the city, with low speed limits, there is usually ample time for the second driver to avoid the dangerous driver, if you are paying attention all the time to what is “all around” you.

Woody Mann-Caruso 10:08 pm 19 Jul 10

explain how you have not confused NSW and ACT police training centres.

I freely admit that I confused the two. I drive/bus past the Barton centre every day, but was under the impression it was where recruits went after they’d been to Goulburn – a bit like starting out at Pucka for the army. Mea culpa (although I note that AFP officers do, in fact, attend training at Goulburn – for example, to obtain CSU’s Bachelor of Policing qualification, to train in ceremonial guard duties, and for specialised mounted police training.)

But I could’ve said they were trained in Mongolia and you’d still have missed the point, which is that they need to be trained, which is expensive, and they need to be paid, which is expensive, and they need cars, which are expensive, and a stack of infrastructure, which is expensive; and having trained them, and having given them cars and garages and buildings and wages and so forth, maybe having them cruise round and around like taxi drivers with guns pulling over tailgaters half the day then filling out paperwork the other half isn’t the best use of their skills or our money.

It’s certainly necessary that some of them do this, but you seem to want more without even knowing how many cars there are to begin with or anything about their performance. You’re literally making it up as you go along. How many fatalities out of our average of 14 do you think we’d prevent if we doubled the number of cars tomorrow? Because last year we were down to 12, but this this year we’re up to 17 already. Must be because they increased cars last year but cut them this year. Or maybe the number of cars has SFA to do with it.

Yes, but it’s very limited, and it’s not hard to go weesk at a time without seeing them.

How many cars are there, George? Let’s forget what you see, because I see them multiple times every single day. Let’s just stick to hard facts. How many cars? After that, we’ll ask harder questions, like ‘How many is enough?’ Your research and policy skills will really shine.

Your Google work obviously changed your mind.

And your Wikipedia work taught you what apoplexy is. Pity you didn’t read the rest of the definition. Other than that, I mostly agree with you.

Deckard 9:37 pm 19 Jul 10

Spot on Buzz.

It’s all sad but Canberra’s not really that bad in the big bad world out there.

Not sure if you saw it but I posted this on the last road safety thread…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Maybe more graphic advertising would work but then there are bigger problems out there like suicide, as was mentioned on another thread, that doesn’t get half the publicity it needs.

buzz819 8:28 pm 19 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

They’re trained in Barton. Did you have a point? Or just apoplexy?

You said you don’t agree with putting more men and women through Goulburn to train? My point was, they aren’t trained there. Your Google work obviously changed your mind.

Do I have apoplexy, no I do not have a hemorrhage into an organ or tissue, nor did I suddenly die within a matter of seconds after losing consciousness?

The AFP does have a Traffic Operations area, same as a “Highway Patrol”

I don’t see there being any real way in Canberra to make the roads safer.

There’s too many people driving, because of that, some people drive too fast, some people drive too slow, some people drive the limit, some people indicate for a brief second before merging, some after.

What’s the main cause of crashes? It’s not speed, it’s not dangerous roads, it’s not too many road signs, it’s not a lack of authority, it’s not any of the things that have been listed here.

People die while driving, because people are driving! I don’t care what anyone says, collisions occur 100% of the time due to human error. I don’t care if it is an animal running on to the road, or ice on the road – anything, it is all human error.

400,000 people in Canberra, I don’t know the real figures on how many cars, let’s say 50,000 or 70,000 car’s on the road, all travelling on average twice a day – that is millions of instances where people drive and are NOT killed in a collision, 17 people dead does sound like a big number and it is unfortunate that there is that many people, but per person driving it is not that many.

India has about 1.1 billion people – it is believed that up to 150,000 will die in motor vehicle collision’s this year, so .01 percent of people die due to collisions. Australia has about 22 Million people, about 1750 people a year die in collisions about .007 percent, Canberra has about 400,000, with 17 deaths – .004 percent of people die as a result of collisions.

Any death is bad – but have a look around the rest of the world, I think you will find that MOST places have those kind of figures, it is just the way it goes – until every car is designed so people are not driving them.

georgesgenitals 7:48 pm 19 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

…having marked Police presence

We have a marked police presence.

Yes, but it’s very limited, and it’s not hard to go weesk at a time without seeing them.

cranky 7:44 pm 19 Jul 10

WMC – Please re-read your post @#20, and explain how you have not confused NSW and ACT police training centres. Buzz was correct, your post @#30 demonstrates arogance, or a touch of red.

Jim Jones – ‘will be more than happy to pay increased taxes in order to fund this initiative.’ It may have escaped you that we ARE paying increased taxes, in the form of traffic fines, which are not being returned to road safety initiatives, but are being used to pay for aboretums and other Stanhope hobbyhorses.

Pork Hunt 7:25 pm 19 Jul 10

Jim Jones said :

Presumably all the people complaining about the lack of police cars on the road will be more than happy to pay increased taxes in order to fund this initiative.

I presume that the AFP does already have a “Highway Patrol”.

Accordingly, why would you have to pay extra, just put them on the road in marked cars 24/7.

Woody Mann-Caruso 6:47 pm 19 Jul 10

…having marked Police presence

We have a marked police presence.

adequate training and knowledge, verified through semi-regular testing

…have nothing to do with, and cannot detect or deter, aberrant behaviour. Every driver with a license had to pass a test showing they knew the rules of the road. They could likely pass such a test tomorrow – then speed off to the pub for a few before driving home drunk.

You do know that ACT Coppers aren’t trained in NSW, you do know that right?

They’re trained in Barton. Did you have a point? Or just apoplexy?

Jim Jones 5:46 pm 19 Jul 10

Presumably all the people complaining about the lack of police cars on the road will be more than happy to pay increased taxes in order to fund this initiative.

Genie 5:26 pm 19 Jul 10

prhhcd said :

some idiot lost his load yesterday just before 2pm on Coulter drive near nettlefold st as well. Nearly caused about 3 separate accidents as people were trying to avoid some VERY large moving boxes falling off the back of the trailer. Police were at the intersection and should have seen it – I wonder if they did anything. Anyone have any ideas? We were standing behind the trailer at the intersection and you could see it was going to happen, but not enough time (while the light was still red) to tell him.

Hearing stuff like this bothers me. Police need to step in and stop stuff like this.. I really hope they saw what happened and fined the driver. I lose a little bit more respect for the police when i see people doing something illegal and they just stand there and do nothing.

Recently I was almost hit by a car on the pedestrian crossing near the law courts on London Circuit. A police car was stopped on the inside lane, giving way to the 4 odd people on the crossing, while another car zoomed past doing in my opinion was seemed over the speed limit. The police officer copped abuse from other people on the crossing and he just shrugged his shoulders and drove off.

On another note, speeding isn’t necessarily the cause of accidents, its driver inattention. Maybe Stanhope should concentrate on teaching better driving schools, make getting a license harder for teens, or making the P-off course compulsory. Bring in some hoon laws maybe… ahh who knows.

buzz819 5:16 pm 19 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Yes, I agree with the ‘let’s put next-to-free cameras everywhere and have them catch speeders all day ever day and put millions of dollars into our coffers’ approach. No, I don’t agree with the ‘let’s put more capable men and women through Goulburn and then pay them millions of dollars a year to cruise around and maybe catch a handful of offenders each a day.’

You do know that ACT Coppers aren’t trained in NSW, you do know that right?

georgesgenitals 4:20 pm 19 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

I won’t pretend to know … but my guess is

Thanks.

Perhaps we could take an approach that focuses more on improving compliance with the rules, rather than simply catching offenders?

Approaches such as…?

…having marked Police presence that:
a) dissuades breaking the rules; and
b) can identify and fine people breaking any of the rules.
AND making sure people have adequate training and knowledge, verified through semi-regular testing.

The road rules themselves are pretty good, I think, and if everyone followed them our roads would be much safer. Many parts of government actually take the approach of ‘helping people comply’, often with good outcomes. If we turned it around from being ‘we want to catch you and fine you, you evil speeder’ to ‘we want to help you know the rules, and we’re going to take a more active approach to ensuring people comply’, I think you would see some attitudes change.

As I said previously, I realise this costs. As such, there’s going to be more to the story on how such an approach could be realistically implemented.

Woody Mann-Caruso 4:08 pm 19 Jul 10

I won’t pretend to know … but my guess is

Thanks.

Perhaps we could take an approach that focuses more on improving compliance with the rules, rather than simply catching offenders?

Approaches such as…?

georgesgenitals 1:24 pm 19 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

No, I don’t agree with the ‘let’s put more capable men and women through Goulburn and then pay them millions of dollars a year to cruise around and maybe catch a handful of offenders each a day.’

Perhaps we could take an approach that focuses more on improving compliance with the rules, rather than simply catching offenders? Surely this would yield better results. I’ll concede, of course, that this costs money. Perhaps keep the speed cameras, but dedicate the revenue they raise to providing additional road safety measures?

Me no fry 12:24 pm 19 Jul 10

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Are you agreeing with the approach Jon Stanhope as transport minister is taking, or do you think we could stand to see more police patrolling the roads?

Yes, I agree with the ‘let’s put next-to-free cameras everywhere and have them catch speeders all day ever day and put millions of dollars into our coffers’ approach. No, I don’t agree with the ‘let’s put more capable men and women through Goulburn and then pay them millions of dollars a year to cruise around and maybe catch a handful of offenders each a day.’

How many cars do you think there need to be to act as a deterrent? Because for those who are actually deterred by a possible police presence – as opposed to almost everybody who just drives five below when they see a car, then speed off when it’s gone – the answer is ‘one’, because you’ll never know where it’ll be til it’s behind you. Go ahead, pick a number, then tell us how you know there aren’t at least that many unmarked cars already.

In terms of return on investment speed cameras clearly win over police enforcement. But road safety is not all about money – or shouldn’t be. The problem with speed cameras is that the only thing they detect is speeding. Police patrols can detect so much more – driving drunk, driving while using a mobile phone, aggressive tailgating, driving unregistered, unlicenced, driving on a suspended licence and so on. In fact, almost all of the egregiously dangerous driving behaviours require the presence of a police officer to be detected and appropriate and immediate action taken. If the police officers aren’t present how are these people being detected?

I won’t pretend to know how many police patrol cars, marked or unmarked, are used for traffic duties in Canberra – but my guess is that the number of patrol cars for a given population number has declined over the years.

vandam 11:50 am 19 Jul 10

Most of the fatals have happened at intersections this year. Maybe we need more cameras at intersections!!!! or Maybe people need to slow down and double check rather than rushing through the intersections.

It’s pretty hard to police each intersection to make sure people are giving way to other vehicles.

On Speeding. Speeding does kill: It’s generally not the cause of the collision, but the speed increases the amount of injuries and causes death. A collision at 60km may not kill you, but one at 100km is likely to.

****People need to acknowledge that speeding increases injuries as a result of a collision caused by other factors(fail to give etc)****

prhhcd 11:23 am 19 Jul 10

some idiot lost his load yesterday just before 2pm on Coulter drive near nettlefold st as well. Nearly caused about 3 separate accidents as people were trying to avoid some VERY large moving boxes falling off the back of the trailer. Police were at the intersection and should have seen it – I wonder if they did anything. Anyone have any ideas? We were standing behind the trailer at the intersection and you could see it was going to happen, but not enough time (while the light was still red) to tell him.

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