ACT Court Makes Domestic Violence Victims Homeless

chewy14 said :

Sleaz274,
You actually think that’s a good outcome?

Fair point, well made.

Sleaz274 said :

…but why do you think that superheroes in all the comic books and films are horribly abused/traumatised then receive powers and go on a “natural justice” rampage of their own against the perpetrators and we love them and adore them for their ability to evade the law and the criminals…

We also love them because they never get it wrong, and are usually incredibly rich, have cool technology, and look like Brangalina.

Sleaz274 said :

…clean up drug f***ed mummy…

Sigh. If only the bikie gang hadn’t been selling drugs in town, think how much time they could have spent saving all the children.

Won’t somebody think of the children.

Sleaz274: Can I suggest that you read a definition of “natural justice”? I do not think it means what you think it means. The situations you describe are pretty much the opposite, actually.

So, apparently the way forward for civilization is to get rid of the entire apparatus of the legal system – the police, the courts, jails, the whole lot — and put bikies in charge.

Great work sleaz274, this truly is a victory for informed, evidence-based policy.

Sleaz274,
You actually think that’s a good outcome?

This is a sad story.

My experience with the police in ACT is they are under resourced. When resources are short things can slip through the cracks or they may be reluctant to do something that may be alot of work. A friend was recently assaulted by a person who was later identified and lived interstate. Police were reluctant to act due to the complications of extradition. My friend persisted and wouldn’t take no for an answer. They took action after the victim’s persistence.

The lenient ACT courts are another thing. If police put thus guy through the courts on assault charges he would likely have a sob story and get off. I was too drunk, too depressed etc. A substance abuser is likely to have such excuses.

Sleaz274 – you need to get out more.

And we need more refuges with better funding. Refuges exist, but tend to be full, and often turn people away.

I’m still shocked and amazed that a bunch of you apparently intelligent enough people to operate a keyboard can’t understand that this sort of outcome couldn’t happen in our wonderful modern bureaucracy, we don’t have a legal or justice system anymore just a big set of expanding bureaucracies with doubtful ability to operate at speed or with best outcomes because someone filled out the wrong form, ticked the wrong box, didn’t represent themselves as well as the legal aid funded defence lawyer did for the criminal, got the wrong judge, coudln’t give enough evidence to police who now require an overwhelming amount of it, so much so that unless a NSW police officer hadn’t had video footage of an incident with a crazy lady in islamic dress he would have been hounded, spoken to, culturally educated ad nauseam. Why do you think that these wonderful mythical bureaucracies we have created produced perfect outcomes every time and why oh why wouldn’t you just take the OP’s initial comments as a fairly common and tragic story rather than cross your arms and go “I don’t believe that” without a shred of argument, support or otherwise. You are as bad as creationists.

Sure I’ll acknowledge in my more spirited moment maybe tribal justice and bikie gangs aren’t the best examples to use for natural justice but why do you think that superheroes in all the comic books and films are horribly abused/traumatised then receive powers and go on a “natural justice” rampage of their own against the perpetrators and we love them and adore them for their ability to evade the law and the criminals. A deeper yearning for our own gutless souls maybe…

Here’s a story while you are all making them up and inserting words beyond the OP and clearly been watching too much CSI.

A pretty young girl who was a delight at school and had lots of friends is noticed by her teachers and principal to be clearly depressed, withdrawn and starts to miss days off school. Eventually the girl is missing for a week from school because her Mum says she is “too sick”. Further investigations by the principal reveal that actually the scum bag new boyfriend of drug addled Mummy has been systematically brutalising this young girl and this time around has raped her so badly she is unable to leave her bed, has not been tended to by a doctor and this has been unreported to police who are now notified. The police unfortunately after visiting the house and fed a pile of BS by Mummy decide there isn’t much they can do except “monitor the situation” even though scum-bag bf (who they now can’t find) is well known to them.

The local motorcycle club is also informed and due to pretty young girl’s real father being a deceased member go to the house and run a 24/7 vigil at the girls bedside, clean the house and yard, clean up drug f***ed mummy and inform certain friends that scum bag bf is now a wanted man about town and is never to approach the family again. They then get young girl better and escort her to school and back each day and have a member available at the school, at the principal’s discretion of course.

Months later scumbag bf is reported missing to police. The local club informs the police that missing scum bag has just fled up north and won’t be a problem. Local police shrug their shoulders and put the case in the too hard file.

3 years later a farmer digging a drainage ditch on his new property unearths scum bag bf.

Still an open murder case, young pretty girl isn’t so young and is doing wonderfully well and married to a nice, non-club member, man and enjoying her life finishing her uni studies. Drug f***ed mummy has another couple of little kids who are also being looked after by the local club and has a part time job in an auto shop.

Example 1 of natural justice. True story as well. Now imagine if a government department had gotten involved…

Regardless of what actually happened, it’s an incredibly sad thing. As adults we need to do better than this, for our kids’ sake.

dvaey said :

So, ‘exploded and assaulted one of the children’ can be taken many ways, and without knowing the whole story, none of us can pass a true judgement. Fortunately the police HAVE had the chance to ask every question of everyone involved, so theyre in more of a position than any of us to know could be held accountable in the whole mess.

I can’t give the full details of what actually happened as it may reveal Janet’s identity.

I do know both the husband and wife were tenants. The incident definitely wasn’t just a case of a nice parent losing it and lightly smacking an unruly kid. Without wanting to start a debate about smacking, I also don’t accept that a disobedient child is ever an excuse for domestic violence.

For those who have pointed out my account is second hand, I accept that’s true. You would have to know this family yourself to grasp the unfairness of this outcome.

Regardless of how it happened a wife and kids have lost their home. The husband now enjoys a family sized government home all to himself.

Brianna said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I find this very difficult to believe.

I don’t.

You don’t find it hard to believe that a court would grant an AVO which requires ‘Ian’ to stay away from ‘Janet’ yet wouldn’t require him to leave *her* prinicple residence?

How is this not difficult to believe?

dvaey said :

One day Ian exploded and assaulted one of the children..

Slightly off-topic for this thread, but many years ago a friend of mine spanked his 12 year old son on the behind, at 1:30am after telling him for over 6 hours to go to bed. The following day, his son told someone at school and the day after, my friend was charged with domestic violence for ‘assaulting’ his child and was forced to move out of the family home. Eventually, charges were dismissed, but not before family services had ruined his and his families lives.

So, ‘exploded and assaulted one of the children’ can be taken many ways, and without knowing the whole story, none of us can pass a true judgement. Fortunately the police HAVE had the chance to ask every question of everyone involved, so theyre in more of a position than any of us to know could be held accountable in the whole mess.

+1

According to the OP, A complaint was made to police involving a crime, they did interviews and took statements but then nothing. Witnesses who helped evacuate Janet and the kids also provided statements. How is this not an assault charge?

It sounds like they gathered what evidence they could, but it was insufficient to charge him with assault. It happens. What we have is a second-hand version of events from ‘Janet’s perspective, not the full story.

dvaey said :

…many years ago a friend of mine spanked his 12 year old son on the behind, at 1:30am after telling him for over 6 hours to go to bed.quote]

No wonder the child complained, what kind of father makes a 12 year old kid go to bed before 7:30?!?

Sleaz274 said :

In more village like or close knit tribal societies the abuser would be set upon by a group of townsmen, broken beaten and disabled and left to die. It’s sometimes strange how much natural justice would sometimes do the trick but nowadays would lead up to someone else spending some time before the courts. I believe bikie gangs carry out rather traditional methods of natural justice which in their tight knit and effectively closed society works rather well.

Bikies don’t carry out justice, they carry out retributive acts based on a perceived sense of honour – Which they don’t have. The last one I also spoke to pimped his wife and step daughter out, and had no problem advising me that the only way to keep them in line was to slap them around now and then.

Your “Natural Justice” never did much to help those wrongly accused, or those that suffered medical issues that resulted in their stoning/beating/exposure to death.

Let me guess – You’re from Queanbeyan!

I have a friend who put up with violence from her drunkard husband, he also attacked their teenage son, she went to police and centrelink, he was evicted and they even arranged for someone from the department to sit in a car outside her house for so many weeks and offered to move them and have their names changed.

Oh how times have changed, as for refuges, where may I ask, they are full.

As for the wifen whose husbands in defence, they won’t do anything, I suggest contact defence church minister and report it, they carry alot of weight.

ACT housing advised Janet to seek an AVO for self protection and allowing an eviction. The court granted the AVO, however Ian successfully appealed against the eviction.

If the lease for the house was in the husbands name, this sounds just. What would happen if ‘Ian’ was evicted, and Janet decided to trash the house and leave, who gets the bill for it, Janet or Ian (whos name is on the lease)?

One day Ian exploded and assaulted one of the children..

Slightly off-topic for this thread, but many years ago a friend of mine spanked his 12 year old son on the behind, at 1:30am after telling him for over 6 hours to go to bed. The following day, his son told someone at school and the day after, my friend was charged with domestic violence for ‘assaulting’ his child and was forced to move out of the family home. Eventually, charges were dismissed, but not before family services had ruined his and his families lives.

So, ‘exploded and assaulted one of the children’ can be taken many ways, and without knowing the whole story, none of us can pass a true judgement. Fortunately the police HAVE had the chance to ask every question of everyone involved, so theyre in more of a position than any of us to know could be held accountable in the whole mess.

Jethro said :

Sleaz274 said :

… and in the past in tribal … Australian societies.

In the present actually. Check out the stats, and documentary footage of communities, with a high proportion of the Indigenous Australian women having an eye missing. Bottles broken across their heads. It’s one of Australia’s greatest shames that we deny what is happening to Aboriginal women.

DJ said :

There are many womens shelters your friend can call on.

Mmmmm how comfy for a woman and some children, while the hubby cosies up in a Guvvy house meant for a family.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I find this very difficult to believe.

I don’t.

Sleaz274 said :

In more village like or close knit tribal societies the abuser would be set upon by a group of townsmen, broken beaten and disabled and left to die.

In most tribal societies domestic violence was/is an accepted part of society. This can be seen today in tribal societies like Afghanistan and New Guinea and in the past in tribal African and Australian societies.

We still like to propagate the noble savage myth, but the truth is most tribal societies had/have an element of violence to them that would shock us.

Has the family friend tried to emergency support services for victims of domestic violence? I think there’s a few operating in Canberra – http://www.citizensadvice.org.au/content/view/39/32/ lists a variety of organisation for family victims of domestic abuse.

I think Centrelink can also provide an emergency one off payment to assist people getting out of domestic abuse situations.

They can’t evict someone based on a protection order, I would have thought. Something would have to be proven. “Janet” can apply for victims of crime compensation that might cover temporary accommodation.
Nothing unusual about a single dickhead occupying a whole three-beddy for $50 a week longterm, at the ACT ratepayers expense. ACT Govt doesn’t care.

Kenworth075… revisit your posting that says “I’m asking for justice. A complaint was made to police involving a crime, they did interviews and took statements but then nothing.”

Why you? Perhaps you are the victim (for all I know) and are unhappy with the outcome… but if it is a friend you are unlikely to have all the facts and rightly so – more reason to not post speculation and half truths on RA.

If nothing is done there will be a valid reason that you do not agree with or understand.

There are many womens shelters your friend can call on.

Sleaz274 said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I find this very difficult to believe.

Are you kidding? What makes it so hard to believe? This is the exact situation that happens to 100s of people every year. You either are extremely optimistic about the wonderful system we call “justice and policing” or are just plain ignorant.

Unfortunately at times it is only in a modern society where this type of injustice can occur because we believe in our system that everyone should be treated fairly and equitably regardless of their crimes essentially endorsing these type of scenarios as an inevitable consequence of our processes. Until that key is turned in the Hilton in Hume…

In more village like or close knit tribal societies the abuser would be set upon by a group of townsmen, broken beaten and disabled and left to die. It’s sometimes strange how much natural justice would sometimes do the trick but nowadays would lead up to someone else spending some time before the courts. I believe bikie gangs carry out rather traditional methods of natural justice which in their tight knit and effectively closed society works rather well.

Umm, ever heard of the Salem Witch trials or ‘dob-in-your-ex’ in the former Soviet Union or…?

Kenworth075 said :

I’m asking for justice. A complaint was made to police involving a crime, they did interviews and took statements but then nothing. Witnesses who helped evacuate Janet and the kids also provided statements. How is this not an assault charge?

IF and I mean IF this is true on face value, I find it a little perplexing that the incident didn’t make it before the court. IF this is true I would suggest making a complaint to the relevant depts/areas. HOWEVER, I do think that there is more to this story.

I agree with post #1 by Innapropriate, but knowing this place, there will be plenty of opinions on something that no one here has the full facts about. There is always 2 sides to a story.

Lies and deception are normally thrown around by both parties in these circumstances. Most are exposed by the courts, but not necessarily to a ‘friend’ of the ‘victim’…

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Why is ‘Ian’ still in the house, surely the AVO states that he can’t go within x meters?

Ian refused to leave the house, forcing the wife and kids move out. Janet went before the courts for an AVO and an eviction. The court granted the AVO but overturned the eviction order. I found it hard to believe but it happened.

Kenworth075 said :

chewy14 said :

Seeing as no further action was taken by the police what are you actually asking for?

Do you think that someone should be kicked out of public housing simply on the word of another person?

I’m asking for justice. A complaint was made to police involving a crime, they did interviews and took statements but then nothing. Witnesses who helped evacuate Janet and the kids also provided statements. How is this not an assault charge?

The biggest problem in this case is the mother and child victims lost their family home as a result of domestic violence. The courts and police went soft on a abusive good for nothing abuser who’s now occupying a house intended for a whole family.

Domestic violence services have helped out in this case. It’s the police and justice system that have let down the victims.

Why is ‘Ian’ still in the house, surely the AVO states that he can’t go within x meters?

Sleaz274 said :

Unfortunately at times it is only in a modern society where this type of injustice can occur because we believe in our system that everyone should be treated fairly and equitably regardless of their crimes

You forgot “alleged” in front of “crimes.”

Sleaz274 said :

In more village like or close knit tribal societies the abuser would be set upon by a group of townsmen, broken beaten and disabled and left to die.

That’s called a “lynch mob” and more often than not you would end up killing the guy left holding the bag, not the one who actually committed the crime.

Here’s possible variation on the original story which might make you think twice before coming to the aid of random damsels in distress:

Ian was a hard working chippie, who thought he had a pretty good life. He married Janet who seemed to be a good sort, but after their second child things started going down hill. Janet was a stay-at-home mum, but more often than not it would be Ian cooking the meals while Janet and the children watched reality television shows.

Ian started admonishing his wife about the apparent slovenly behaviour, and suggested that it would be a good idea to encourage the kids to play outside in the evenings after school in order to fight their ballooning weight problems. Over a period of months, Janet was getting even more slovenly to the point that all the plates in the house were on the sofa where she and the kids had slept last night. Ian snapped, woke Janet up and shook her while screaming, “DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU’RE DOING TO YOURSELF AND THE KIDS YOU LAZY COW?”

The next day Janet moved out and took the kids with her. Some time later he received a call from the public housing trustee to talk about the AVO, following which Ian had to make a court appearance to explain the situation to the judge.

Ian still lives alone, while his wife is couch surfing with their kids in tow, and he has no idea when he’ll ever get to see his kids again. Janet hasn’t touched the money in the shared account, but keeps sending friends over to demand cash from Ian instead.

Until you hear both sides of the story, it’s best to avoid jumping to conclusions.

Have you actually done any research on the ‘justice’ doled out by ‘close knit tribal societies’?

chewy14 said :

Seeing as no further action was taken by the police what are you actually asking for?

Do you think that someone should be kicked out of public housing simply on the word of another person?

I’m asking for justice. A complaint was made to police involving a crime, they did interviews and took statements but then nothing. Witnesses who helped evacuate Janet and the kids also provided statements. How is this not an assault charge?

The biggest problem in this case is the mother and child victims lost their family home as a result of domestic violence. The courts and police went soft on a abusive good for nothing abuser who’s now occupying a house intended for a whole family.

Domestic violence services have helped out in this case. It’s the police and justice system that have let down the victims.

What makes it hard to believe is that ‘Janet’ obtains an AVO against ‘Ian’ yet ACT Housing effectively overturns said AVO and allows ‘Ian’ to live in the house in breach of it.

Um … are you saying you prefer mob justice (sorry, ‘natural justice’) to a formal legal system?

colourful sydney racing identity said :

I find this very difficult to believe.

Are you kidding? What makes it so hard to believe? This is the exact situation that happens to 100s of people every year. You either are extremely optimistic about the wonderful system we call “justice and policing” or are just plain ignorant.

Unfortunately at times it is only in a modern society where this type of injustice can occur because we believe in our system that everyone should be treated fairly and equitably regardless of their crimes essentially endorsing these type of scenarios as an inevitable consequence of our processes. Until that key is turned in the Hilton in Hume…

In more village like or close knit tribal societies the abuser would be set upon by a group of townsmen, broken beaten and disabled and left to die. It’s sometimes strange how much natural justice would sometimes do the trick but nowadays would lead up to someone else spending some time before the courts. I believe bikie gangs carry out rather traditional methods of natural justice which in their tight knit and effectively closed society works rather well.

I find this very difficult to believe.

Inappropriate said :

Without knowing both sides of the story it’s hard to comment in a way that’s fair and just.

You do realise this is RiotAct?

One would have hoped that someone would have provided access to information about all of the crisis accommodation that is available for women exscaping domestic violence – especially for those with dependants.

If she hasn’t already been put in contact with (and this would beggar belief if it is the case) the Domestic Violence Crisis Service should be able to help her with accommodation options http://www.dvcs.org.au

Try DHA for compassion….evicted because of spiteful, violent husband. Truth be told, that exact situation happened to me this past July and whilst he laps it up in a 4br house at 1/5 the market rent per week with no debt, I’m paying market rent, my 3 children and $40K worth of debt.

ACT Corrective Services are useless too. No one wants to deal with defence when a defence member screws up.

Seeing as no further action was taken by the police what are you actually asking for?

Do you think that someone should be kicked out of public housing simply on the word of another person?

Obviously a single person should not be living in a full size home and “Janet” and her kids should be given emergency housing asap, but I would think these are simply failings of ACT Housing not some great injustice.

Without knowing both sides of the story it’s hard to comment in a way that’s fair and just.