ACT schools violent?

Nyssa, sorry only just caught back up with this thread – the year 12 results are in the CT every year. I’m going from memory, narrabundah college have been top for several years and McKillop bottom.

To this day I’ve never heard a comment worth noting from Steve Pratt. As someone who was educated for 9 years in a private school and who taught for 18 years in the government system, and who had her children educated in the government system, I have first hand experience of the lengths to which government schools go to ensure that all children receive a fair hearing, that violence is absolutely not accepted, and that teachers and pupils are accepted for their contributions to the school academically, in sport, in other activities such as debating, art, music and drama, and that the depth of a parent’s wallet has no influence on the standard to which all children are educated. I get so sick of the constant criticisms pf public education. I believe one of the best supportive comments in regard to public education comes from my daughter, “”I never notice the colour of a person’s skin or their facial features – they’re all just people to me””. This is what public education is all about.

Oh and BK, you haven’t given me a better solution to the child and the light switch.

I ask this because EVERY child tries to do it. So what is your solution Dr. BK?

BK, yeah ok.

Being a child doesn’t mean you know how to parent a child.

Quit while you’re ahead.

I in no way believe that children are little adults.

I also know of plenty of parents that don’t ever smack their children and their children are as delightful as a child can get. I have also known parents that don’t smack their children and their children are little shits. The one defining difference I have noticed is the amount of attention a parent pays a child. And it seems like the more attention a child gets the better the more well behaved they are.

AD, you’re missing the point that the pro-smackers are making
1. There’s a lot of daylight between smacking a kid for doing something really bad and beating the tar out of a them cause they’ve pissed you off. One is discipline, one is abuse.
2. Smacking is a last resort
3. Smacking is not something any decent parent enjoys.

“Maybe if you are reduced to hitting your children, you aren’t doing your job properly as a parent??”

That’s a rather patronising statement. A kid is a naive sentient being, not fully capable of thinking in a logical and rational manner. You’re commiting the fallacy of assuming that a kid is just a “little adult”.

You can’t expect them to do everything right first time. You can’t perceive all of the things they could potentially do wrong and warn them beforehand – let alone expect them to understand the consequences of their actions based on that.

Smacking, as VY said, is just another arrow in the quiver. You just have to be aware that it’s always the last one you pull out.

I have kids, I don’t hit them, their behaviour is on the good side of average compared to other kids their age, they do understand about consequences and limits for acceptable behaviour.

But back on the topic of the Pratt’s letter:
The drift from public to private schools is probably more complex than the Pratt makes it out to be. It will take more than anecdotal evidence to convince me that we should make wholesale changes to the high school public system in Canberra.

haha stressed parent syndrome. Its funny how you people love to tell others how wrong they are.. but when someone comes on and mentions that perhaps there are alternatives to hitting children then you get all fired up.

Maybe if you are reduced to hitting your children, you aren’t doing your job properly as a parent?? plausible??

Who are you to say that smacking is violence – furthermore – you said you did not need to be smacked when you were a child. Then who are you to say that all children are created equal to you ?

Im not a parent either – I am looking at starting a family very soon – I dont have children of my own – but unlike yourself – I am not blind.

Not all children are equal in their behaviourial traits.

So why discipline all kids with the same methods.

if I deem that the situation requires more than stern words – then as a last resort a smack will suffice – Just because I believe in smacking dont make me a child abuser – Im firm but FAIR.

There is – repeat IS a difference between smacking a child for disipline and loosing your cool and beating the dirt out of them.

and BK why can we not say “I was smacked as a child and I turned out fine”

What is wrong with stating pure hard fact ?

I was smacked when I was a child – and I turned out fine – I think smacking is good – because sure as shit – if i ever got smacked for something – aint no way in hell I would do that again.

Get over it – different methods for different situations – your kids are going to be walking all over you.

BK, You still haven’t told us abusive people how to deal our children. Please help me become a better parent, a parent who doesn’t beat their kids senseless. I want to become a better parent, why won’t you help me with your infinite wisdom.

BK – given that you can’t understand the simple concepts of boundaries and consequences, it’s probably good that you won’t be inflicting BattleKath juniors on the world.

To say that it’s ok to hit your kids because that’s how you were raised is simplistic and shallow. Hitting your kids is not fun or satisfying. You don’t do it because you’re angry. You do it to convey the meaning that there is a consequence to stepping over a boundary (frequently a safety related one). It is one arrow in the disciplinary quiver.

Get life, and maybe a clue. Maybe then you could think about raising children.

Too late!

BattleKath,

Go find another Chick. That way your genes won’t be propogated.

LEARN TO LOVE – HIT YOUR KIDS!!!

that’s the slogan of the century.

I’m not a parent, but i was child, DUH.

I really wish that people would get out of that “I was smacked and i turned out fine” mode, because it’s bullsh*t.

i WAS a child… i WASN’T smacked… you don’t NEED any kind of violence.

you obviously can’t grasp that… and i truely feel for all the children that are getting smacked because their parents think it’s ok.

nyssa, you always find a way to add some irrelevant story. perhaps YOU should think before you write.

No guys,

Wait, lets here out BK and hear her theories of how to deal with unacceptable behaviour from little children. After all her ‘wealth’ of experience should shed some light that us child abusing violence fostering parents can’t possibly fathom from our lack of experience of raising and living with kids every single day.

Please BK shed some light on how to deal witht he situation where a child has learnt to swear, can’t control their emotions, have clearly not been taught to respect their parents wishes and decides to chuck an abusive tantrum towards their parents or the child who wo’t listen to their parents requests to do something as simple as clean up their toys ???

After all I’m sure that ‘asking’ them and sending them to the corner for a few minutes will ALWAYS work and their growing and developing minds and attitudes will clearly adjust the well reasoned requests of adults…

Dam spelling – Witching -> watching..

Yes Battlekath,

I had kids so I could hit them.

I had kids so they could do the washing.

I had kids so they could clean the car.

I did not have kids so that I could enjoy witching them grow.

I did not have kids so I could share their dreams with them.

I did not have kids so I could devote my life to their upbringing.

I did not have kids so that I would be incredibly changed by the experience.

I did however cry when I first smacked both of my girls.

I did however cry when my 13 year old was dumped by her then boyfriend.

BattleKath, Until you have kids, you simply have no clue. You couldn’t even begin to understand my devotion to my kids. You are simply looking at strict definitions of the word “smack”.

Until you have kids, you simply wouldn’t understand why I would *never* want to have my wife choose between my children, and me, because you simply wouldn’t understand that I would loose.

Learn to love.

BK, if you were a parent, you would know that a small smack does not equate to child abuse.

If your son or daughter repeatedly touched a light switch and you tried to coerce them to stop, but they didn’t and were shocked, how would you feel?

I suffered an electric shock at the end of July and am still suffering because of it. All I did was turn off a light switch at work. I still can’t use my hand or thumb properly.

Think before you write.

Yeah.

Besides, this is about violence in schools = majority, which isn’t true.

BattleKath – by disclosing your lack of children you have just admitted that you really don’t know what you’re talking about. So keep your value judgements to yourself and let the parents talk.

Do i have kids, no… thank f*cking god!

however, that’s irrelivent. you’re all making up excuses to HIT your children, listen to yourselves!!

you’re physically abusing them… and violence is violence no matter how small or how good a reason you think you have.

James-T, I worked in that section of the Dept last year and I know what you mean.

Shall we start my rant on the inabilities of kids who are “Home Schooled” to be adequately re-introduced into society, or the workplace?

BattleKath.

“Smacking children is brutal and does nothing but reinforce violence.”

Do you have any children?

I have 2, THey are currently 14 and 10. I have smacked them occasionally (though I do not remember the last time I had to).

I established the boundaries, before they were capable of much in the way of reason, and they are angelic. In fact, given how I was as a kid, I am blessed that they are so good.

Yes, as a kid, I was smacked, and that set boundaries.

Go and have some kids before you talk next time.

AARRGGHH!!!!!

Hey BattleKath? do you have children? No, thought not.

I was smacked as a kid, BK. I was also taught that violence has consequences.

Kids can also be taught that violence has shades of grey. For example, I was taught that you can’t belt someone for pissing you off; but if you’re being bullied constantly, and no-one will help you, maybe violence is a useful last resort.

However, if you use that last resort, be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Given how little power teachers have to prevent bullying, I wouldn’t be suprised by any stories of kids getting the hump and giving some bully a poke in the face.

I was smacked as a child and I certainly don’t go around using violence to solve my problems.

Children need to be taught limits and respect. You can “discuss” things blue in the face and they won’t listen. I use smacking as a last resort. They get “please don’t”, followed by the “I asked you not to” followed by the count to 3 and if they continue its a smack and sent to the “corner” followed up with a why did I do that question and a go and apologise.

My little kids may not be perfect but I would like to think its the discipline coupled with showing them respect and not swearing around them that has helped them be pretty good kids that don’t chuck tantrums in shops, can go shopping without them screaming for cholocates etc….

But if my child ever hurled abuse like ‘you fucking bitch’ that deserves greater punishment then “please don’t”. You are sending a clear signal that there is no stretching the boundaries on that kind of language.

My children don’t use violence at all. Smacking is a last resort.

As someone who was abused I make sure it doesn’t happen to my children.

smacking/hitting/tapping, whatever. you’re just teaching your children to act out violently when someone does something that they don’t agree with (which as a child is probably quite often).

It’s like that Dr Spock guy, even he admitted his “crap” ruined things.

A light smack is not abuse. It’s a last resort when everything else doesn’t work.

However, when you have kids who’s parents have given them everything and let them rule the roost, you can’t even work with them in a classroom.

So yes, the whole “no smacking” mantra has a lot to answer for, primarily for the parents who let their child/ren be “free spirits” and don’t want the responsibility of their child’s actions.

and teaching them that everything in life has a consequence negative or positive.

I wouldnt smack a child. Inflicting pain on someone (unless I am in the sporting arena) is not my thing. I would however ensure that any child of mine understands that if they are not behaving as they should there will be serious retribution. I never really got smacked as a child (maybe once or twice) and my parents always had pretty much full control of me.. same with my brothers. I did rebel big time in my teens, but not in a manner that really affected anyone but myself or my parents. I also have an exceedingly good relationship with my parents. Too much smacking tells children that violence is a good way of dealing with a problem. probably the most important thing a parent should teach a child is self reflection… teaching them to understand why they react in a certain way.. and to understand why other people may react in a certain way.

I got the jug cord around the lower thighs – maybe a bit too much now – but hay it was the 80’s.

If I had kids I would at least smack them to make them cry – the line between smacking and parental abuse is pretty black and white IMO.

Make them cry does not mean you have to brutalise them, besides, whats the point of a love tap on the arse – like thats going to teach them.

Mr Shab is on the money i reckon.

Dunno BK – most of the kids I’ve struck throughout my life from no-smacking families are absolute terrors. To show a kid boundaries and discipline without the aid of a physical deterrent must take level of parenting skill and patience that most people just don’t have. I guess it can be done – but I can’t say I’ve seen it work.

Smacking a kid isn’t brutalising them. Using the buckle end of the belt is a bit much, IMO; but a whack on the bum for giving cheek or doing something dangerous is another matter.

No most of the “terrors” (or class terrorists as I call them) come from families where the parents don’t care about their child’s behaviour but don’t you dare bring it to their attention or they’ll give you a serve.

My own children know that they are at school to learn. If they are rude to their teachers etc they are grounded, loss of privelages and the like.

I won’t have my children growing up to be like some of the children I teach.

No “smacking” is a joke. A tap on the bum isn’t abuse. Little Tommy tries to play with a light switch. You smack his hand and he soon learns that light switches are not to be played with.

Simple.

that is complete bullsh*t bonfire. smacking children is brutal and does nothing but reinforce violence.

how could you possibly know that… “many of the little terrors in public are from ‘no smacking’ families.”…

absolute rubbish.

very very sad. little snahon is 4.5 and doesn’t even have those words in his vocabulary (yet). But I would have to agree with bonfire, if something like ever came out my childrens mouths belt and soap – and all you no smacking children whingers can go jump !!!

many of the little terrors in public are from ‘no smacking’ families.

last week as i wandered the westfield temple of avarice in belco, i saw a little darling of about 5 say loudly ‘you fucking bitch’ to its mother when mum took something off little darling.

response from mum ?

nil.

i can assure you, juniort bonfire woudl never have dreamt of talking to his mum in this way. it would have been the buckle end of the belt when i got home – guaranteed.

Damn Straight, if the buggers don’t want to learn, kick em out of school and hand them back to the parents. If people want to be parents, perhaps its time they actually ‘parent’. At least the teachers may actually have the time to teach instead of running a teenage day care centre.

No wait we can’t do that.. too many whinging sooks out there that would come up with a million excuses as to why we cant do that.

discipline needs to start at home. Teachers need to spend more time teaching than disciplining. Out in public I see so many people that just let their children run around willy nilly, annoying the shit out of people like me… they don’t bother trying to control them. Its no wonder there are issues in schools.

Sorry Nyssa, but i’m in agreement with Pratt.
Teachers are so busy bending over backwards with the thugs, and the parasites on the education system, that the better behaved kids just feel overlooked. The students have to put up with so much crap in the classroom, its a wonder that they’re coming away with anything anymore.
We need to come into line with NSW and take the students that come to school to cause trouble away from the mainstream and place them somewhere else with the properly trained teachers to cope with them, otherwise their behaviour just starts to rub off on the whole school.
My children have been in public education all their lives, but i’ve seen enough lately that my youngest will be leaving his primary school this year for a catholic school. Huge schools DON’T work.

Hang on, you actually want our lettuce-eating vego teachers to try whacking kids? They’ll break a wrist!

God help us all.

Kids don’t get a sense of boundaries unless somebody enforces them.

The sad joke is that wy wife (Not partner, I am happy to be married!), being a teacher, comes home with story after story about discipline problems in her school.

Sadly, there is *nothing* that the schools can do about it. Yea, Sure they can issue the ogg Level 2 contract, or even suspend a kid, but the kids, and even the parents, don’t care.

Suspension is simply a schools way of saying that the kid can have a week at the local shopping mall without actually skipping out on school.

“Johnny!”
“You shot sally!”
“How do you think that makes her feel?”
“Appologise at once, and go and sit in the Thinking Corner”

Corporal punishment is a top idea – it means the teachers actually have some teeth to enforce their directions.

Bring back corporal punishment. Six of the best as a result of your behaviour is enough to make most students reflect upon their proposed course of action.

Were did you get that info? Is it on the DECS site? (too tired to think atm)

Anecdotal ‘violence’ – where’s the proof? This is an unsubstantiated generalisation. It reminds me of Alston’s constant whine about ABC ‘bias’ – proven to be 99% crap. As for literacy, perhaps Pratt should take note of Year 12 rankings where McKillop is invariably bottom of the heap?

Regarding the behaviour issues, I went to a reasonably crappy and violent (but not ACT) school. Nyssa is right, 99% (less at my school) of the students are basically ok, but the 1% that aren’t still cause enough problems that it effects many of the students. Bad behaviour is infectitious, and once it starts it’s hard to stop. Most schools are fortunate enought to be able to lump these trouble makers somewhere away from the ‘normal’ students.

From personal experience, trouble maker students need to be dealt with rapidly or you get a situation like at my high school, where the tolerance for bad behaviour gradually grew until most people (me included) could get away with all sorts of crap simply because it was below the teachers’ radar. Not a good habit to be in, but the teachers spent so much time dealing with ‘existing’ bad behaviour that they didn’t spot the ‘new’ bad behaviour until it was all too late, and the cycle continued.

Blaming teachers is not the answer – they put up with enough crap now. Instead, problem kids need to be put into programs run by people with the necessary skills and attitude to manage them.

simto, no. I hate them all equally.

cwb – he’s slagging off education in a national newspaper and then states that the school exodus is because of literacy (we’re #1 in Australia), labor party indoctrinated P&C members, violent students and lack of values.

He’s hardly doing anything positive, just pissing in the wind.

Ah, well, it’s all very different when the opposition goes on useless frolics, isn’t it?

In reality I think Pratt needs a trip to Serbia to have his balls fried again. 🙂

No wonder they let him go.

I don’t see any problem with Pratt writing a letter to a newspaper – it’s hardly an exlusive forum and I’d say not too dissimilar with people commenting here.