Another accident................

buzz819 said :

dvaey said :

If your car isnt able to go from 60 to 80 down that hill, I suggest you have your brakes or wheel-bearings checked, as something must be binding or sticking. I only drive a little hatchback, but Id often have to drop down a gear or two, to stop my car from speeding. (Sure, I could use my brakes, but despite current driver education Ive been taught to use gears in preference to my brakes).

Which is a good thing, it means that no one behind you can tell that you are slowing down, until of course they are on top of you and you save the unnecessary inconvenience of changing brake pads and brake lights as often.

I mean who needs brake lights anyway?

He’s using the technique to maintain a constant speed on a down grade, not to slow down.

buzz819 said :

Which is a good thing, it means that no one behind you can tell that you are slowing down

You really can’t tell if someone’s slowing down without brake lights?

Regardless, in this case, it isn’t even someone slowing down, it’s someone stopping themselves from speeding up (and actually remaining at a constant speed).

dvaey said :

bd84 said :

There’s no way that your car would gain 20kph going down there without accelerating. Unless the hill has a steep incline, taking your foot off the accelerator will slow your car without even needing to use the brakes.

If your car isnt able to go from 60 to 80 down that hill, I suggest you have your brakes or wheel-bearings checked, as something must be binding or sticking. I only drive a little hatchback, but Id often have to drop down a gear or two, to stop my car from speeding. (Sure, I could use my brakes, but despite current driver education Ive been taught to use gears in preference to my brakes).

Which is a good thing, it means that no one behind you can tell that you are slowing down, until of course they are on top of you and you save the unnecessary inconvenience of changing brake pads and brake lights as often.

I mean who needs brake lights anyway?

bd84 said :

There’s no way that your car would gain 20kph going down there without accelerating. Unless the hill has a steep incline, taking your foot off the accelerator will slow your car without even needing to use the brakes.

If your car isnt able to go from 60 to 80 down that hill, I suggest you have your brakes or wheel-bearings checked, as something must be binding or sticking. I only drive a little hatchback, but Id often have to drop down a gear or two, to stop my car from speeding. (Sure, I could use my brakes, but despite current driver education Ive been taught to use gears in preference to my brakes).

bd84 said :

There’s no way that your car would gain 20kph going down there without accelerating. Unless the hill has a steep incline, taking your foot off the accelerator will slow your car without even needing to use the brakes. The hill there is in no way steep, a gradual slope maybe.

Nope. Cars pick up speed down that hill with no use of the accelerator at all, and definitely don’t slow themselves down. Possibly a manual might handle it better, but an automatic can easily pick up 20km/h by the bottom of that hill – I can personally attest to that. Driving my Commodore down that hill, it’s necessary to ride the brakes down the entire slope – even knocking it back to 3rd gear isn’t enough to keep to the speed limit.

When I heard of this accident, I was upset because I’m a motorcyclist too. It’s not a good feeling to lose one of your own, so to speak.

I think this is not the right time to lay blames at all. Whoever’s fault it is, it won’t change the reality.

I think having either a set of lights or roundabout are both good idea. People can complain all they want. And for those who complain, probably because they want to fly down that long straight road doing more than 60km/h. I used to ride to work going that way but now I choose the other way with round about outside of Charnie.

Motorcyclists need to be careful of intersections. I slow down at every intersection without hesitation. Ride defensively.

Motorists, please look for us out there. The number of motorcyclists out there has grown in the past years. There are more of us out there now so please look out for us. I’ve had a few close calls and the feeling of about to be hit by a car is terrifying! No one will ever get used to it so please watch out for us on your blind spots and at intersections.

My heart goes out to the family of the deceased.

Gerry-Built said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Respects to the families involved.

Absolutely. 100%.

Additionally though, I did make it clear it was my assumption (as few details had been released) in my previous posts – I also assumed no other obstructions but bike hitting car, as the distance he traveled seems to indicate. I Googled around a bit to find some sort of basis for that (thanks for the YT link – I will look it up later when Dunlop isn’t running at stoooopid slow). I get PO’d by all the speeding motorists along that stretch (and speeding motorists in general anyhow), and seeing the distance between the accident and tarps in the CT image and resultant damage to the car – I think I’ve rightly assumed speed was a BIG factor. I did drive through there today, and I would stand by my assumptions based on the indicators clearly marked on the road – but will happily be put in my place if evidence is to the contrary. I wanted to make the point about the rider contributing to fault, as a previous post laid the blame directly on the driver of the car (nor was I simply turning the blame to the rider – just making it clear I thought there was some contribution from the rider).

buzz819 said :

I don’t think anyone can really speculate as to what happened.

Just occasionally, people need to be reminded that this *IS* RiotACT… This is an “online soapbox”. I was definitely speculating, and airing my opinion – and I did so based on what I have seen in the area, and what I saw in the photos. I also tried to give my assumptions some factual basis, but found no information on this particular kind of accident.

Ohh I seem to have upset you. Do you need to be reminded that this *IS* RiotACT where people can share there opinions? At the end of the day I don’t really care about yours, but saying that sitting in your arm chair at home you can’t possibly say what happened at the time of the collision.

TP 3000 said :

What would work best for the intersection of Florey Drive/Southern Cross Drive & Starke Street/Southern Cross Drive (West) would be an attempt at a realignment so those 2 intersections became one. Then have traffic lights with a red light/speed camera.

This is mainly due to the fact that I (at times) see long lines of traffic coming out of Kippax shops waiting to turn onto Southern Cross Drive & once Macgregor West is complete that surely brings a lot more cars onto Southern Cross Drive.

But also the amount of people that speed along Southern Cross Drive is ridiculous, I’m surprised there aren’t more accidents leading to death along that stretch of road.

So how you going to do that? Remove the club and vet’s office or knock down some houses?

The better idea would be to do what was meant to happen originally and that is extend Flory drive into Kippax, but alas now the road in front of Kippax Fair is not a through road so maybe not a good idea.

Roundabouts on these two intersections would be ideal as it would slow vehicles down and give a better chance for cars coming out of Florey Drive.

Sorry for the life lost of the young man, I really don’t like motorbikes, temp residents.

Gerry-Built said :

…I wanted to make the point about the rider contributing to fault, as a previous post laid the blame directly on the driver of the car (nor was I simply turning the blame to the rider – just making it clear I thought there was some contribution from the rider)…

Yep, fair enough.

my husband was taken out by a car on his motorbike in a similar intersection in tuggeranong a few weeks ago. (ashley dr and bugden ave) He was going the speed limit and was following the road rules. he was very very lucky. it is my biggest nightmare that something like this would happen to him. I feel for the families involved. I so could be in their situation.

Cars just don’t see motorbikes. these intersections (all along ashley dr) constantly have crashes on them (not unlike this crash site) and not just with motorbikes.

What would work best for the intersection of Florey Drive/Southern Cross Drive & Starke Street/Southern Cross Drive (West) would be an attempt at a realignment so those 2 intersections became one. Then have traffic lights with a red light/speed camera.

This is mainly due to the fact that I (at times) see long lines of traffic coming out of Kippax shops waiting to turn onto Southern Cross Drive & once Macgregor West is complete that surely brings a lot more cars onto Southern Cross Drive.

But also the amount of people that speed along Southern Cross Drive is ridiculous, I’m surprised there aren’t more accidents leading to death along that stretch of road.

Because nothing slows down motorcyclists like a roundabout.

sexssive said :

Sorry mate, but your ‘facts’ are completely wrong.
-The speed limit is 60km/h on this section of Southern Cross Drive, from just past the lights/intersection of Southern Cross and Kingsford Smith Drives.
-It’s TWO lanes, and yes, they are seperated down the middle.
-Heading west, the road forms one lane at the bottom of the hill. (without accelerating, can easily hit 80km/h at the bottom)

There’s no way that your car would gain 20kph going down there without accelerating. Unless the hill has a steep incline, taking your foot off the accelerator will slow your car without even needing to use the brakes. The hill there is in no way steep, a gradual slope maybe.

Judging by the picture being used by the media, it looks like two wrongs haven’t made a right. The motorcyclist looks like he’s been doing a higher than legal speed and the driver either hasn’t looked properly or failed to estimate the speed of the motorcyclist correctly, perhaps both.

trix said :

@gerrybuilt, you couldn’t be more wrong. A friend of mine was killed in a bike accident doing 15km/h in dense traffic. But if your bike goes one way in the wet weather, and you and your head (even helmeted) ends up under the wheel under a 40-tonner, you ain’t going to survive.

Point taken. Heavy traffic rather doesn’t seem to be the case here though (I was speculating upon this accident specifically).

Wraith said :

sloppery said :

It sure sounds like the bike was going very quickly (like lots of motorbike riders in Canberra do).

Of course they, but car drivers don’t do that though do they? Nice attempt at a troll though…….Unfortunately its an old one

I actually agree with this ‘trolly’ post. I see motorbikes in this town accelerating like all hell breaking loose, and flying past other cars. Of course, cars do it too, but when you screw up in a car you have a nice big steel cage to protect you, which is why you’re more likely to get killed or injured in a bike crash as opposed to a car crash.

Dh and I were discussing this when he got home this afternoon. He recalls hearing a motorbike speeding past the house around 8pm last night. Not an unusual occurance around here, but maybe it was the same cyclist.

Something has to be done there- I go through that intersection regularly and it’s terrible- but please, Govt, NO ROUNDABOUT! Big roundabouts are dangerous for cyclists and walkers. And yes I know there’s an underpass close by, but that only caters for some potential routes through this intersection, not all of them. Traffic lights would be fine. Same with Starke St- it shouldn’t be too difficult to syncronise them.

Holden Caulfield said :

Respects to the families involved.

Absolutely. 100%.

Additionally though, I did make it clear it was my assumption (as few details had been released) in my previous posts – I also assumed no other obstructions but bike hitting car, as the distance he traveled seems to indicate. I Googled around a bit to find some sort of basis for that (thanks for the YT link – I will look it up later when Dunlop isn’t running at stoooopid slow). I get PO’d by all the speeding motorists along that stretch (and speeding motorists in general anyhow), and seeing the distance between the accident and tarps in the CT image and resultant damage to the car – I think I’ve rightly assumed speed was a BIG factor. I did drive through there today, and I would stand by my assumptions based on the indicators clearly marked on the road – but will happily be put in my place if evidence is to the contrary. I wanted to make the point about the rider contributing to fault, as a previous post laid the blame directly on the driver of the car (nor was I simply turning the blame to the rider – just making it clear I thought there was some contribution from the rider).

buzz819 said :

I don’t think anyone can really speculate as to what happened.

Just occasionally, people need to be reminded that this *IS* RiotACT… This is an “online soapbox”. I was definitely speculating, and airing my opinion – and I did so based on what I have seen in the area, and what I saw in the photos. I also tried to give my assumptions some factual basis, but found no information on this particular kind of accident.

Jivrashia said :

sexssive said :

Sorry mate, but your ‘facts’ are completely wrong.

However, I assume you agree that a lot of vehicles coming down Southern Cross Drive, heading west, into the Florey intersection, are rather fast?

I agree completely. People come fast down the hill, but if you’re going to come down the hill, and turn right into Florey Dr, you’re not going to be doing 80km/h. Nor 60km/h. You would have to slow down considerably to take the right hand turn.

Until the facts are presented (IF they are presented) there is merely going to be speculation as to what actually happened. Did the driver of the car turn without looking? Possibly. Was the bike speeding? Possibly. Could this incident have been avoided with an infrastructural change? Possibly.

I don’t think a stop sign would work at this intersection. Watch this intersection during peak hour in the afternoon/weekends. There are cars lined up a)right up Florey Dr b)in the turn-right lane c)overflowing from the turn right lane. As per road rules, the right of way goes 1)to those travelling towards belconnen on southern cross drive 2)to those turning right onto Florey Dr from Southern Cross Dr 3)turning right from Florey Dr onto Southern Cross Dr (going towards Kippax/Parkwood). This is a nightmare, especially if you are on the Florey Dr side of things! A stop sign isn’t going to change the traffic flow.

How many more people have to be injured in accidents or die before the Government will list that area as a black spot???

I live in the area and there is constantly accidents at those 2 intersections… Usually during a peak hour traffic (the ones Ive noticed as I head to Kippax during the 6-8pm time slot.)

Some drastic changes need to be made along that whole stretch of road that is 60kph. I catch a bus daily off Southern Cross and I could probably book every driver for speeding. (including myself) – pop a few slow points in, or those bumpy things to slow down drivers, traffic lights, roundabouts – ANYTHING !

Xanthomyza said :

Jivrashia said: ” … and the speed limit is 80Km/Hr … “

The speed limit along Sth Cross Drive, west of Kingsford Smith Drive, is 60kmh. There are no 80kmh bits. Having said that, most cars I see going down there, particularly heading west on the steeper section, are going much faster than 60kmh. It’s also two lanes, not three. There are a lot of drivers that do stupid things at both the Florey Dve and Starke St intersections.

I also see speed cameras at on that steep west-bound section of Southern Cross Drive a lot, so speed at your own risk. People actually have to learn to brake when going down a hill.

I feel sorry for the families of the young fella on the bike and the driver of the car.

I don’t think anyone can really speculate as to what happened.

The bike could have been speeding, the car could have been speeding, the car, which was turning should have given way to oncoming traffic… The list goes on.

It is a tragedy, it is an a collision, more and more are happening at the moment. While one can automatically jump to blaming “P” platers, motorcyclists and the government, I think it is about time we all look at the way we drive.

Stick to the speed limits, observe give way signs and stop signs. Above all do not assume that the other driver on the road is going to follow the signs.

It’s time to go back and start driving with more observation about what everyone on the road is doing and not driving with head up bum.

Then, even when everyone is still driving observantly with 400+ thousand people in a city with over 100,000 cars on the road it is to be expected that cars are going to collide.

I feel sorry for all involved in accidents, fatal or not, it is a hard stressful time.

I think that a stop sign should be at the intersection at the very least. I didn’t know about this accident, but I turned right at the intersection last night and thought that a ‘Give Way’ sign just isn’t enough.

I don’t think we need traffic lights there, but at least a stop sign might be enough to entertain the idea in people’s mind that they should actually stop and look now and then.

sexssive said :

Sorry mate, but your ‘facts’ are completely wrong.

However, I assume you agree that a lot of vehicles coming down Southern Cross Drive, heading west, into the Florey intersection, are rather fast?

The group congregating now on the corner who are obviously friends and family mourning the deceased are going to cause another accident. Dont get me wrong, I feel for their loss, but it is distracting to local drivers.

My dh said just last night that there are more and more sirens in this area lately. Whether they are fire engins going around the corner where we live, or out to parkwood, police, or ambulance, there is a lot more.

Turning out of Beaurepaire is getting as rediculous as trying to turn right out of Starke St. One of the main problems is definately speed in the area. Trucks, cars and motorbikes, do much more than 60 in the area. Even after being woken at 6am for 6 weeks straight on Saturday mornings, the government still cant get the roads right. Something has to be done, but roundabouts and traffic lights at every intersection isn’t going to work.

Both the Southern Cross / Florey Drive and Southern Cross / Starke St intersections are terrible, then made even worse due to their proximity, as any breaks in traffic are quickly filled by people turning right at both intersections and making it even harder to turn at the other. I avoid both like the plague. The number of near misses I’ve seen there is ridiculous, as people who have been stuck at the intersections unable to turn get frustrated and take stupid risks.

I think they’re even worse lately, as traffic on Southern Cross drive has increased with Macgregor West opening up. There are also a lot of heavy vehicles that use Southern Cross Drive – this traffic seems to have increased as well, now that Spofforth St is closed to heavy vehicles.

What I don’t get is why all the work has been done (and then redone) between Starke St and Spofforth putting in turning lanes and on road cycle lanes that suddenly end with nowhere to go, before work’s been done to fix those intersections. Realigning the section of road that was nice and wide to begin with surely has to take a lower priority than fixing dangerous intersections?

@gerrybuilt, you couldn’t be more wrong. A friend of mine was killed in a bike accident doing 15km/h in dense traffic. But if your bike goes one way in the wet weather, and you and your head (even helmeted) ends up under the wheel under a 40-tonner, you ain’t going to survive.

Jivrashia said :

Ah, THAT intersection.

Cars driving along Southern Cross Drive heading west towards the intersection are, more often than not, going at very alarming speed – usually about 80Km/Hr.

The reason seems to be because Southern Cross Drive is large (3 lanes?), opposite traffic is separated by a generous middle section of vegetation, and the speed limit is 80Km/Hr – all this all the way up until the vicinity of the Florey Drive intersection. To make matters worse it is downhill.

I think we need that traffic light or round-about (I prefer round-about) at an intersection before Florey, such as Moyes Cres.

Sorry mate, but your ‘facts’ are completely wrong.
-The speed limit is 60km/h on this section of Southern Cross Drive, from just past the lights/intersection of Southern Cross and Kingsford Smith Drives.
-It’s TWO lanes, and yes, they are seperated down the middle.
-Heading west, the road forms one lane at the bottom of the hill. (without accelerating, can easily hit 80km/h at the bottom)

In any event, these points are effectively useless because the event happened with the bike travelling from the other direction (towards Belconnen) and there was no way the car was speeding at all from their side of things (turning from Southern Cross Drive into Florey Dr)

I recently moved into close vicinity of this intersection (6 weeks ago) and last night was the second accident i’ve heard whilst sitting in my loungeroom. Friends have lived in the area for years and there definitely needs to be something done about this intersection. It’s extremely dangerous when dry, and gets even worse when raining.

sloppery said :

It sure sounds like the bike was going very quickly (like lots of motorbike riders in Canberra do).

Of course they, but car drivers don’t do that though do they? Nice attempt at a troll though…….Unfortunately its an old one

Jivrashia said: ” … and the speed limit is 80Km/Hr … “

The speed limit along Sth Cross Drive, west of Kingsford Smith Drive, is 60kmh. There are no 80kmh bits. Having said that, most cars I see going down there, particularly heading west on the steeper section, are going much faster than 60kmh. It’s also two lanes, not three. There are a lot of drivers that do stupid things at both the Florey Dve and Starke St intersections.

Here’s a thought, maybe GovCo could put a speed camera at that intersection. Y’know instead of that all those other nasty accident spots on dual carriageways around town.

Jivrashia said :

Ah, THAT intersection.

Cars driving along Southern Cross Drive heading west towards the intersection are, more often than not, going at very alarming speed – usually about 80Km/Hr.

The reason seems to be because Southern Cross Drive is large (3 lanes?), opposite traffic is separated by a generous middle section of vegetation, and the speed limit is 80Km/Hr – all this all the way up until the vicinity of the Florey Drive intersection. To make matters worse it is downhill.

I think we need that traffic light or round-about (I prefer round-about) at an intersection before Florey, such as Moyes Cres.

+1
Very dangerous intersection indeed.

Ah, THAT intersection.

Cars driving along Southern Cross Drive heading west towards the intersection are, more often than not, going at very alarming speed – usually about 80Km/Hr.

The reason seems to be because Southern Cross Drive is large (3 lanes?), opposite traffic is separated by a generous middle section of vegetation, and the speed limit is 80Km/Hr – all this all the way up until the vicinity of the Florey Drive intersection. To make matters worse it is downhill.

I think we need that traffic light or round-about (I prefer round-about) at an intersection before Florey, such as Moyes Cres.

It sure sounds like the bike was going very quickly (like lots of motorbike riders in Canberra do).

It’s a shocker alright. Nearly been cleaned up on that one myself.

And having witnessed many accidents there from a workplace nearby, I finally drove up to the intersection of Manuka Circle, NSW Crescent and Telopea Park and realised why it’s so dangerous. Take EXTREME caution at that one around the vicinity of Telopea Park High, Telopea Park, and the Manuka Arts Precinct/Manuka Oval.

jasere said :

yeah that a great idea let just have a roundabout or a set of lights at every intersection in Canberra what a joke

[face palm]
Roundabouts work well at a lot of locations around town. A roundabout would be a good, ‘cheap’ fix for *that* intersection – which is well known for accidents – especially when people are speeding and/or pulling out in front of traffic. It would limit speed, and channel traffic better.

Limiting all lanes to one either direction and providing turning lanes into and out of Florey Drive was a great start, but the fundamental problems with that intersection remain, and must, by now, be well documented from the sheer number of accidents there.

Additionally, if riders/driver adhere to speed limits, being able to judge speed and distance would become less of an issue… Speed was almost certainly the major issue here…

While 60km/h is certainly fast enough to be fatal, that photo looks like the results of a somewhat faster impact. These events always remind me how fragile I am on my bike. While I like going fast, that is one of the last bits of road in Canberra where I would do it.

lepotika said :

the young man who died on the motor bike was one of my very good mates. Ive known him for nearly 14 years… he was a beautiful hearted, fun, boy – who died at the young age of 23. something needs to be done.

I am so sorry to hear that Lepoika. Thoughts are with you.

Gerry-Built said :

…I would strongly suspect that a motorcycle collision at 60km/h would be unlikely to be fatal – I have no factual basis for that assumption however.

I do note, however, that the damage to the car and the location of the rider after the accident (assumed to be tarps/lights) looks to be *at least* 50m up the road, and to me that seems rather unusual for a 60km/h impact… Again, I am no physicist… but I know where my suspicions lie…

Whoa, lots of assumptions there to keep people going! On what grounds would you suspect a motorcycle collision at 60km/h would be unlikely to be fatal. Naivety perhaps?

Spend some time watching a few crash tests and then tell me how you think a motorcyclist would fare in a 60km/h crash with a 1200-1500kg car. Note, the side impact tests are generally performed at 50km/h, frontal tests at 64km/h.

There’s not enough information available on this accident yet to even formulate internet theories. Best to use this incident as a reminder to us all that no matter what time, what conditions or the experience of the road users fatalities do happen and we need to be aware and alert at all times when on the road.

The time between being here and being no more can take place in the blink of an eye.

Respects to the families involved.

yeah that a great idea let just have a roundabout or a set of lights at every intersection in Canberra what a joke

there is no way the bike was going 60kms I had a similar prang by one of are many tools that cannot judge speed and distance

ABC News: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/19/2876174.htm

…I would strongly suspect that a motorcycle collision at 60km/h would be unlikely to be fatal – I have no factual basis for that assumption however.

I do note, however, that the damage to the car and the location of the rider after the accident (assumed to be tarps/lights) looks to be *at least* 50m up the road, and to me that seems rather unusual for a 60km/h impact… Again, I am no physicist… but I know where my suspicions lie…

From the OP, it sounds like the motorcyclist was doing a fair rate of knots too – I wouldn’t, at this stage, lay blame squarely on the driver of the car (particularly after just 4 short sentences of reporting. I hear a number of motorcycles screaming down there regularly, and I live a full suburb away! The speed limit along there is 60km/h; and not without good reason… yet so many people think they are immune from following that limit.

The two intersections definitely need some work – particularly the one where the accident occurred. A roundabout could barely find a better location to land itself in Canberra…

the young man who died on the motor bike was one of my very good mates. Ive known him for nearly 14 years… he was a beautiful hearted, fun, boy – who died at the young age of 23. something needs to be done.

BenMac said :

After reading the report, that accident isn’t the fault of the intersection. It’s the fault of the car.

I used that intersection many, many times, and I do believe it is hard when coming out of Florey Dr, turning right onto Southern Cross Dr because people are flying down the hill.

But the crash occured when the bike was heading away from Starke St towards the hill, and the car, turning into Florey Dr, turned across its path.

It appears to be a case of drivers inattention.

We were wondering how this accident happened. So motorcycle was travelling towards belconnen on SC drive and car was turning right into Florey, taking out the motorcycle?

I totally agree that there NEEDS to be a round about or lights at that intersection! i have been living in this area for 20 years and the amount of accidents is terrible!! I live very close and did see the accident and i think before you blame the driver of the car you should wait for your facts! This was a terrible accident and my thoughts are with the friends and family of all involved.

After reading the report, that accident isn’t the fault of the intersection. It’s the fault of the car.

I used that intersection many, many times, and I do believe it is hard when coming out of Florey Dr, turning right onto Southern Cross Dr because people are flying down the hill.

But the crash occured when the bike was heading away from Starke St towards the hill, and the car, turning into Florey Dr, turned across its path.

It appears to be a case of drivers inattention.

We walked out of the Magpies club last night and saw all the emergency vehicles. What a horrific accident! About 10 police cars, firies, ambos etc. A white sheet covering the body on the road. Absolutely terrifying. The motorcyle looked like it had been split in half. Our thoughts are with the family of the deceased. Certainly a warning about how dangerous road use can be.

It’s not the intersections that are deadly – it’s the humans controlling the vehicles.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/motorcyclist-dies-in-latham/1806218.aspx