ANU - a new audience for socialist ideas?

Passy said :

Under feudalism the exploitation was obvious – you worked for 3 days for the lord and for 3 days for yourself. Under capitalism the exploitation is hidden.

The exploitation seems pretty obvious to me. You work 3 days for yourself and 3 days for the Government.

Passy said :

A one way ticket to North Korea. Oh dear. Such a stupid stupid comment. I’ll visit when North Korean workers overthrow the corrupt, moribund repressive murderous regime.

Once again softcock option… you are prepared to whinge and whine, not prepared to get your hands dirty. Sort of like the political equivalent of a NIMBY.

jakez said :

proofpositive said :

Passy, if you pine so much for a communist regime then why not get a one way ticket to North Korea.

That’s like telling me to move to the USA if I pine for a libertarian paradise.

At least you don’t carry on like a pork chop.

“The Australian Crime Commission still scares me though Thumper”

The Government has always collecting information on NGOs and dissidents. In the 90s the Victorian Police infiltrated and kept files on 300 organisations and people. The information was shared with “Military intelligence”. My file said that I had contact with a suspected terrorist. I often wondered if it was the contact I had with SA activists that got me that entry.

I think it was apt that one of the first people arrested under the new anti terror laws was an American WTO activist.

jakez said :

Actually now that I think about it, this sounds a lot like my experience in High School.

: )

You do make me smile, jakez, but I feel that you’re hearing me. Thanks!

jakez

you say:

‘Indeed we do sell our labour, and at a profit.’

That is at the very heart of the disagreement between socialists and oths. The Labor Theory of value argues that it is only labour that creates value. Workers are paid not for the time they spend in creating value but for the time necessary for them to survive. Say that takes four hours of labor. the other four hours is then expropriated by the boss and becomes profit, dividends, rent etc.

Under feudalism the exploitation was obvious – you worked for 3 days for the lord and for 3 days for yourself. Under capitalism the exploitation is hidden.

neanderthalis, you say:

“Well Dexi, maybe you could organise the unemployed and have them revolt against the working class. They could go on strike. Oh wait…”

Actually, during the depression the Unemployed Workers Union organised among those on the suss – this was work for the dole type arrangements. They struck to get better suss, and won on occasions.

I think, alhtough I’m not sure – the memory si going as I age – that the Communist Party had a major role in the UWU through the Militant Minority.

A one way ticket to North Korea. Oh dear. Such a stupid stupid comment. I’ll visit when North Korean workers overthrow the corrupt, moribund repressive murderous regime.

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom; socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
Alexis de Tocqueville , 1848.

proofpositive said :

Passy, if you pine so much for a communist regime then why not get a one way ticket to North Korea.

That’s like telling me to move to the USA if I pine for a libertarian paradise.

Passy, if you pine so much for a communist regime then why not get a one way ticket to North Korea.

Indeed we do sell our labour, and at a profit.

PB – the rabble rosusers were striking workers. To blame students and socialist is nonsensical. And these striking workers didn’t bring the country to its knees. They won, and Labor won Government because of them.

Which strikes were you involved in then, so I can better understand your point of view?

Frankly being a socialist in Canberra is not that easy. But it is true it is a more homogenous city (ie more “middle class, as you call it) than other cities. But I’d make the point that white collar workers sell their labour, and just like blue collar workers are in fact workers. But at least you’ve dropped the effete student insult.

Passy said :

Looks like there’s a new show I should watch. Even better than Extras or the Office?

Far better than than Extras and the office. new Zealand comedy at its finest.

Passy said :

These industries are only ‘inefficient’ because they are developed for profit. Take the profit motive away and we could have heated old people’s homes for nothing instead of letting them die in winter.

.

if you remove the profit motive, then what motivation is there for innovation and increased productivity. What motivation is there to work at all if there is no chance of profit. We are by our very nature creatures driven by greed and possession. We want out four bedroom, 3 bathroom and 8 living area McMansion and SS Commodore, not a two bedroom flat and a Trabant.

Passy said :

These industries are only ‘inefficient’ because they are developed for profit. Take the profit motive away and we could have heated old people’s homes for nothing instead of letting them die in winter.

Well I’m glad you have solved that old ‘scarcity of resources’ problem. That was a real bastard.

For those who doubt the powers vested in our more shadowy policing organs, you might be interested to know that the Australian Crime Commission can secretly detain witnesses, compel them to testify before it (you have no right to silence), and prevent them from disclosing to anyone that they have been detained or questioned. There is very little scrutiny, and the Commission was found last year to have been investigating the personal habits of the minister responsible for overseeing it.

Yes, but they are hardly going to worry about a disillusioned old marxist are they.

The Australian Crime Commission still scares me though Thumper.

Granny said :

Jakez, condemn away, but don’t pretend to be on the side of women if you can’t understand what it’s like to be physically weaker than most men, to have a softer voice and softer body, to jump when a man is angry and yelling.

It scares me, ok? Condemn away at my weakness. I’ll still be scared.

Actually now that I think about it, this sounds a lot like my experience in High School.

Granny said :

Jakez, condemn away, but don’t pretend to be on the side of women if you can’t understand what it’s like to be physically weaker than most men, to have a softer voice and softer body, to jump when a man is angry and yelling.

It scares me, ok? Condemn away at my weakness. I’ll still be scared.

I don’t see how jumping when a man is angry and choosing the easy and not committing to anything 100% are the same thing. I guess I haven’t explained myself well but there are probably two sub points to my discussion with you. The first is that I don’t lump women and men into two rigid categories because I don’t think it matches reality. The second is that I don’t like people who ‘CHOOSE’ to be mentally weak. Not those who are mentally weak but those who choose to be. I must be muddling the two points for you and then muddling the distinction in the xecond point.

Besides Granny, there are plenty of men who are bigger, stronger, and louder than I. They make me sweat don’t you worry.

…Actually there are women who are stronger and louder than I who do the same thing. Has nothing to do with what is between my legs, or theirs.

Looks like there’s a new show I should watch. Even better than Extras or the Office?

Thanks Granny.That comment did shock me at the time. But later comments made me realise I may have said something in such a way as to encourage that particular response inadvertently. And the article I wrote that you responded to was a hotchpotch of half baked ideas that hadn’t really been thought through.

My original point may have been, in hindsight, me letting my heart rule my head. There is more questioning on campus. That doesn’t mean people are flocking to join socialist groups. There are a few doing that, and others I think are waiting to see what happens. After all joining some little group with seemingly strange ideas and with no influence at all in the real world is a major step.

I don’t think my views are confronting. They are just different – if that is confronting it says more about the lack or narrowness of debate and discussion in our society. But I guess in the MacDonalds of ideas fresh food doesn’t exist or if it does it doesn’t sell.

As to the miners flogging a dead horse by defending their mines. To me it’s about livelihoods and the fact that work is the essence of our humanity. Lose your job and you lose not only your capacity to be a part of society in any meaningful way, you also lose part of what defines you as a human being.

These industries are only ‘inefficient’ because they are developed for profit. Take the profit motive away and we could have heated old people’s homes for nothing instead of letting them die in winter.

And if we did have such a society, changing from coal to other energy sources wouldn’t mean loss of the ability to live adequately or the loss of one’s humanity. There’ll always be a range of socially useful work to undertake.

Passy said :

And by the way it wasn’t me who broke the unions in Britain in the 70s. (Your revisionism is pathetic.) In fact the miners won in 74 and Labor came to power on the back of that strike.. The force against unions then was the Labor Governmetn. Then it was Thatcher in the 80s with her attacks on the miners and the disgraceful failure of other unions to join them.

I was there mate, you shouldn’t try to lecture people who have experience over your second hand knowledge. I remember the winter of discontent, when rabble rousers like you brought the country to its knees.

It’s easy being a socialist in nice safe middle class Canberra.

For those who doubt the powers vested in our more shadowy policing organs, you might be interested to know that the Australian Crime Commission can secretly detain witnesses, compel them to testify before it (you have no right to silence), and prevent them from disclosing to anyone that they have been detained or questioned. There is very little scrutiny, and the Commission was found last year to have been investigating the personal habits of the minister responsible for overseeing it.

Good read! Hope there’s more.

Jakez, condemn away, but don’t pretend to be on the side of women if you can’t understand what it’s like to be physically weaker than most men, to have a softer voice and softer body, to jump when a man is angry and yelling.

It scares me, ok? Condemn away at my weakness. I’ll still be scared.

This problem would of course disappear under socialism–we’d simply take the car we were assigned. I want my Trabi!

Ha! The old Trabant. A good example of why these worker’s paradises are such a disaster.

Well Dexi, maybe you could organise the unemployed and have them revolt against the working class. They could go on strike. Oh wait…

Granny said :

Jakez, there is so much resonance for me in what Passy said. I am glad if we are basically in agreement, as I really would rather not be in any disagreement with you. But it never ceases to amaze me how often gay blokes understand women so much better than straight guys …. It’s so cruel and ironic it almost makes me laugh out loud!

: )

I also think that you have categorised women who want their own gyms as pink dumbbell users who have no idea what they’re doing, when really it is purely and simply a matter of personal comfort and choice. I would hazard a guess that those women would find that comment quite insulting.

The comment is meant to be insulting Granny. Do not get me wrong Granny, I do not believe in gender stereotypes, however I will condemn the purposefully weak willed. I worship at the alter of Henry Rollins, I do not believe in coasting.

However, it is not women who want their own gyms so much as women who choose to go to the womens only gyms. These gyms are a disgrace.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

And by the way it wasn’t me who broke the unions in Britain in the 70s. (Your revisionism is pathetic.) In fact the miners won in 74 and Labor came to power on the back of that strike.. The force against unions then was the Labor Governmetn. Then it was Thatcher in the 80s with her attacks on the miners and the disgraceful failure of other unions to join them.

Sounds kinda like what the American Auto workers are going through now. The reality is that their car manufacturing is from the dark ages, and their product quality is poor compared to the competition. Why flog a dead horse? I’ve never understood why unions want to preserve industries that are ready for extinction.

This problem would of course disappear under socialism–we’d simply take the car we were assigned. I want my Trabi!

Jakez, there is so much resonance for me in what Passy said. I am glad if we are basically in agreement, as I really would rather not be in any disagreement with you. But it never ceases to amaze me how often gay blokes understand women so much better than straight guys …. It’s so cruel and ironic it almost makes me laugh out loud!

: )

I also think that you have categorised women who want their own gyms as pink dumbbell users who have no idea what they’re doing, when really it is purely and simply a matter of personal comfort and choice. I would hazard a guess that those women would find that comment quite insulting.

“Self interest my dear.”

I’ve always wondered why you would flog a dead horse. Exercise.

Representing the non working scum I find the whole notion of, work as a god a bit insulting. The things that are done in the name of jobs. Like clear felling old-growth forests. Workers seem to think they are owed a living.

Granny said :

Also jakez many women do feel intimidated by such abuse. Please don’t presume to speak for those of us that do find harassing or bullying behaviour intimidating, particularly from men.

Granny, I think if you reread my post you will see that what I was saying was that not all women are like that and that men feel harassed and bullied too. I’m saying you can’t put people into groups so easily and that both men and women can feel harassed and bullied in such situations. I don’t see how our opinions are in conflict.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

And by the way it wasn’t me who broke the unions in Britain in the 70s. (Your revisionism is pathetic.) In fact the miners won in 74 and Labor came to power on the back of that strike.. The force against unions then was the Labor Governmetn. Then it was Thatcher in the 80s with her attacks on the miners and the disgraceful failure of other unions to join them.

Sounds kinda like what the American Auto workers are going through now. The reality is that their car manufacturing is from the dark ages, and their product quality is poor compared to the competition. Why flog a dead horse? I’ve never understood why unions want to preserve industries that are ready for extinction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Self interest my dear.

There are an awful lot of good people on RA though, Passy, and an awful lot of good things about the site or we wouldn’t all be here.

I really do understand, however.

I think it would be a shame if you followed any natural inclination to feel pushed away, though. I am the least likely person to become an SA person, but I have grown somewhat fond of you since I accused you of bigotry many months ago in our initial altercation.

I think that when you are offering people a very confronting point of view, or one with extremely negative connotations in most people’s minds, passions will often run high and it can be difficult for people to actually hear what you’re saying through the filters that we all have.

I think you know that I do care, and I hope you’re doing ok. At the end of the day you really just made an observation that there was a lot more interest shown by the students than before the economic downturn. I find that an interesting observation, and I thank you for sharing it even if I’m not personally happy about it.

Some of your other explanations about your philosophy were also very interesting, and certainly make it easier to understand why you believe what you do. I also thank you for caring. As PB pointed out, most people have lost their youthful idealism about the world long since but you have persevered. I know he meant that as an insult, but I would take it as a compliment.

Also jakez many women do feel intimidated by such abuse. Please don’t presume to speak for those of us that do find harassing or bullying behaviour intimidating, particularly from men.

dexi said :

Jakez has had Seven periods with Mr Gormsby.

Dexi I only stumbled upon the last episode of Season 2. I loved it (and now realise what the show was called which means I can find it and watch the whole thing), however I don’t understand exactly what you mean.

And by the way it wasn’t me who broke the unions in Britain in the 70s. (Your revisionism is pathetic.) In fact the miners won in 74 and Labor came to power on the back of that strike.. The force against unions then was the Labor Governmetn. Then it was Thatcher in the 80s with her attacks on the miners and the disgraceful failure of other unions to join them.

Sounds kinda like what the American Auto workers are going through now. The reality is that their car manufacturing is from the dark ages, and their product quality is poor compared to the competition. Why flog a dead horse? I’ve never understood why unions want to preserve industries that are ready for extinction.

It’s the same. People create an atmosphere where others are unwelcome. The essence is the same. It’s why women for example often want their own gyms. And why they often find it difficult to enter into debate and discourse because it is so male dominated and even when we try to be accommodating we are blokey.

Women who have no idea what they are doing and use pink dumbbells want their own gyms. Women who want to actually work seriously toughen up. Blokes who know what they are doing are just as harassed in a gym by morons and frat boys as any fitness bunny. Furthermore, as a feminist I’m disgusted by your stereotyping of women in such a manner.

The same I think applies to seemingly open blogs. The commentators create an atmosphere that is welcoming or not. On RA it is not welcoming of difference and most commentators can’t handle alternative views. So we are driven off or stay quiet.

I advocate for crazy, small Government, gun totin, drug smokin, hands off libertarianism on a blog centred in the ACT (the undisputed champion of technocracy and bureaucracy). You think YOU are the fringe?

I don’t have a problem with shouting at Tony Abbott. It happens all the time in Parliament. It happened often to me at work. Or the group think meant I didn’t bother raising ideas.

I hardly think Parliament House is a good barometer for decorum. The simple fact of the matter is SA prevented people from having an open discussion. SA didn’t silence Tony Abbott, like you said he has no shortage of media time. What SA did was silence everyone else. SA made the story about SA. Well done to them, they achieved their true objective.

That is a classic show Dexi. I just wish there were more teachers like Gormsby.

Jakez has had Seven periods with Mr Gormsby.

Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?
For the Union makes us strong.

Sing along folks…

Solidarity forever!
Solidarity forever!
Solidarity forever!
For the Union makes us strong.

Thanks PB. I have been a worker since the 1970s and have now retired, although the global economic crisis has cut my pension by 20 per cent and I am looking to get back into the workforce. Every day I worked I was a union member (and as a freelancer have joined the MEAA even though my earnings often don’t cover the monthly fee!). I spent my working years arguing for and helping gain some rank and file control of our unions, and better conditions, although rank and file control ahs now been lost.

For the last five years of my working life I was a boss. (I got the foreman’s job, in your parlance.) It was sheer hell for me, and I eventually had a breakdown because of the internal conflict it caused.

So don’t call me a f*cking effete student.

And by the way it wasn’t me who broke the unions in Britain in the 70s. (Your revisionism is pathetic.) In fact the miners won in 74 and Labor came to power on the back of that strike.. The force against unions then was the Labor Governmetn. Then it was Thatcher in the 80s with her attacks on the miners and the disgraceful failure of other unions to join them.

Thumper

It’s the same. People create an atmosphere where others are unwelcome. The essence is the same. It’s why women for example often want their own gyms. And why they often find it difficult to enter into debate and discourse because it is so male dominated and even when we try to be accommodating we are blokey.

The same I think applies to seemingly open blogs. The commentators create an atmosphere that is welcoming or not. On RA it is not welcoming of difference and most commentators can’t handle alternative views. So we are driven off or stay quiet.

I don’t have a problem with shouting at Tony Abbott. It happens all the time in Parliament. It happened often to me at work. Or the group think meant I didn’t bother raising ideas.

Jakez, re pissant – you’ll end up driving me to Adelaide.

Passy said :

I am going to mention the upsurges against government in France, Iceland, Greece, factory occupations in the US, UK strikes, instability in China, state leftists in South America (but not in my view socialists), the ongoing resistance in Palestine, the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, to try and make the point that one small spark can set off the flame of rebellion anywhere in the world.

How is the resistance in Palestine, the ongoing fighting in Afghanistan and the sectarian violence in Iraq leftist rebellion?

The Palestinians are simply defending their nation fron the invading Israeli hordes. Iraq is divided by three branches of the same religion and Afghanis are doing what they do best, killing people who try to occupy their country, they’ve been doing it for thousands of years and have become rather good at it.

Nationalism does not equal socialism passy.

Iceland protests were because the state controlled banks lost the savings of the depositiors, there was no moves to seize control of the means of production, establish soviets and end class division there.

Same in the US and UK, fuelled by the current economic crisis, workers protested not so that they could control the factories, but so that the government would subsidise production and secure jobs and increase economic growth. Sounds rather like the rebirth of National Socialism to me.

The modern socialist state is a rather curious entity. We see the nationalisation of the means of production and the financial systems, the working classes told this is all for their benefit before they are forced to work in the factories, the oppression of all opposition and increasingly isolationist policy.

Ever read the Road to Serfdom passy?

Pissant wasn’t meant to drive you away, I just have a really immature sense of humour.

Passy said :

… But to call me insane, lacking reality, a pissant, writing self-indulgent crap – how does that add to the debate? In fact it demeans those who hurl these unthinking retorts and shows their inability to address the issues.

Finally it makes it very uncomfortable for those on the receiving end of the abuse to want to participate any more, which I think is the real aim of the abuse ….

Sorry, but I have to agree. I have felt this way myself at times.

So Thumper, how is demonstrating against Abbott any different? We were doing exactly what you are doing – disagreeing with someone.

But the tone here and the constant ad hominem attacks are clearly an attempt to drive me off RA.

I’m for civilised discussion and debate. When are those who oppose my views going to cease their constant abuse and deal with the issues.

I don’t mind some insults. I quite liked Keating talking about a dog returning to its vomit and saying a soufflé only rises once. And I often use his comment about Howard – all the vision of Mr Magoo is a favourite of mine. But to call me insane, lacking reality, a pissant, writing self-indulgent crap – how does that add to the debate? In fact it demeans those who hurl these unthinking retorts and shows their inability to address the issues.

Finally it makes it very uncomfortable for those on the receiving end of the abuse to want to participate any more, which I think is the real aim of the abuse. The abusers want a blog which echoes their views and prejudices where differences (eg Labor and Liberal) are minor.

Anyway, back to the original point of the article.I’m not sure the greater questioning I found on campus will translate into anything major for socialist groups just yet. It is going to be more long term than I thought as people sit on the sidelines waiting to see what happens. But if the class or sections of it take action to defend jobs and wages, then that shifts debate to the left and all bets are off.

And of course the nazis and neo-nazis (or populist versions like Hansonism) can also gain a hearing in times of economic crisis.

I don’t know Passy, from my experience you are just witnessing the great cycle of student politics. After the Coalition lost the Federal election, the ANU and UC Liberal Clubs had a greater number of members. It doesn’t mean anything. Hell, I wish you guys the best of luck though, it’s kind of boring without you.

Passy said :

I’m not embarrassed by the video. I see groups who are systemically denied free speech protesting against a person who has almost unlimited free speech. In fact from memory, despite police advice, Abbott moved into the middle of the demo.

From my memory, Abbott asked all the audience to come in closer so that they could possibly have a chance of hearing him. They did. SA then came in and mobbed everyone yelling and shouting and carrying on. I know this because I was right in the middle and was pissed off because as a Liberal I wanted the crowd to see me disagree with his position.

As I said to people at the time. I respect SA’s right to do what they did (ANU after all did not step in and remove you and it is their property). I also respect everyone’s right to think that SA acted like twits.

Two points. To say I have a loose grip on reality, or to suggest I am insane, is precisely the approach the Stalinists took to some dissenters. They locked them up in psychiatric hospitals. How could anyone dare question the joys of living in the wonderful worker’s state?

Second this constant barrage of abuse is anti-free speech – an attempt by the mob to stop me expressing my views, views which many of you ahve never encountered and so appear not to be able to understand let alone address. Hence your stalinist dismissiveness.

Actaully Thumper, if I have been hauled away by the AFP or ASIO and held incommunicado for 14 days I am not allowed to tell anyone. Unless I want to go to jail for a few years. Seems much like the powers the Stasi had.

The International Commission of Jurists (hardly a bastion of radicalism) released a report recently condemning the West for eroding civil liberties in the name of the war on terror. Perhaps you should read the summary or press release.

How come I’m getting moderated?

Finally, to PB, I’m not a proud capitalist. Capitalism has a variety of political expressions, some allowing a little democracy and free speech, many not. But to be a socialist does not mean to support the stalinists. If you can’t understand that there are different views on socialism and ultimately it is the working class which will decide what is socialism, then so be it. Just don’t presume to know my mind or views and criticise me if you can’t understand this basic point of mine. Or at least when you do criticise me try to rise above the level of the unthinking.

And are you “working class” Passy, or just another “middle class guilt” monger?

I know I am working class, I know what it was like to be on the front lines of the pickets, I know what it’s like to see people go hungry and without. I worked and lived through 1970’s Britain, when people like you damn near destroyed the working class.

Effete students pontificating on the needs and rights of mass participation in control of the factories.

Give me a call when you’ve worked on the shop floor here; http://images.francisfrith.com/c10/450/54/port+talbot_P139301.jpg

like I did for the first 10 years of my working life.

Give me a call when you’ve been through this; http://www.dfgdocs.com/Assets/Images/Titles/DirectoryTitle_Full/battle%20of%20orgreave.png

It’s easy to be a socialist when you’re a comfy student in nice, safe, middle-class, Canberra.

I’m not embarrassed by the video. I see groups who are systemically denied free speech protesting against a person who has almost unlimited free speech. In fact from memory, despite police advice, Abbott moved into the middle of the demo.

I don’t see Abbott’s free speech impinged. I see people making a valid demonstration against him and him using the opportunity to get himself all over the papers the next day. If you are all supporters of free speech (and not just for the rich and politicians)what processes to you suggest for allowing ordinary citizens access to the media to express their views? What systemic processes – eg guaranteed media spots – do you suggest. I think for example there should be many more public places in Civic for the views of the silenced and voiceless. And free air time on radio, TV and printy sapce on newspapers and RA for all political currents.

We live in a society which systemically denies free speech or the outlets for free speech, which narrows citizenship to mere voting every 3 years (picking Tweedledee and Tweedledum and which judges a person and their access to the media by the size of their wallet.

The point about Iraq and Afghanistan was that apparently it is OK to silence the voice of millions of Muslims in the name of democracy and free speech. And what happens in Afghanistan and Iraq is a mirror of what happens here – the denial to the majority of free speech although on a much bloodier scale there than in Australia.

Similarly with the Stasi and ASIO – they are the same logic, not necessarily the same actions (although wire tapping, infiltration, provocateurs and presumably outsourcing torture, rendition etc are not unknown weapons in ASIO’s or ASIS’s armory) because there is social peace more or less here at the moment. Certainly our support for Guantanamo bay and locking up refugees indicates our commitment as a society to free speech is fair weather.

persoanlly I’v ebeen wiretapped, had infiltrators in meetings, been manhandled at and expelled from a public meeting by th cops (eg when a group of us took over a facist meeting and made it a meeting for a people’s hsitory of the struggle against nazism). Why is my free speech less important than Tony Abbott’s? Abbott in fact has unlimited access tot eh emdia.

This is a clash of two rights to free speech. How do you resolve both rights?

As the the Taliban, I put the words ‘if’ in there. I suggest you read my article on neither the jihadis nor the US to understand my position. Or read something by the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan who argue against both the US occupation and the corrupt regime it has installed and the Taliban. Don’t see much reporting of their views do you? Or the views of Iraqis (maybe a majority) who want the US out.

JB says move on? Where to? All the way back to the 1930s economically? Sure most readers weren’t even born then but some might like to draw lessons for the future from that catastrophe. My talk on Thursday night might help here.

Finally I know attacks ad hominem are the stock in trade of many contributors to RA, (presumably because they have no contribution to make to the issues) but could we desist and have a discussion instead about the ideas? I wish instead of ad hominem attacks (calling me a ‘typical paranoid, insane attention seeker’ adds nothing to the debate and only demeans the person making the comment) people on Riot Act would try to address the issues rather than wallow in group think.

Obviously my views are not part of your comfortable world view and diet of force fed ideas from Sunrise and Joe Hockey to the Australian and Kevin Rudd all the way to the Daily Torygraph.

Maybe that says something about the lack of real freedom and debate in Australia. I thought RA was different and enabled people to express different views. Unfortunately the barrage of unthinking abuse I always receive causes me to doubt that.

Finally, to PB, I’m not a proud capitalist. Capitalism has a variety of political expressions, some allowing a little democracy and free speech, many not. But to be a socialist does not mean to support the stalinists. If you can’t understand that there are different views on socialism and ultimately it is the working class which will decide what is socialism, then so be it. Just don’t presume to know my mind or views and criticise me if you can’t understand this basic point of mine. Or at least when you do criticise me try to rise above the level of the unthinking.

haha, passy apears to be the typical paranoid, insane attention seeker that pop up all over the internet spouting the same garbage. Only difference being there seems to be a whole gtoup of them in my town :/

Passy said :

PB

You say I support the system which enslaved workers (ie stalinism.) There is no evidence for this lie. My whole political life has involved a struggle against stalinism and those who unthinkingly stereotype all socialists as stalinists. My struggle includes support for democracy there and here.

Sure you do, you’re a proud capitalist then?

Oh no, what you do is the moral equivalent of claiming to oppose the Roman Catholic Church by supporting the Baptists. Still worshiping the same (failed) god, but via another cult isn’t opposition, it’s collusion.

That would have been fascinating – especially Gorbachev! I can’t believe there would be such a lack of interest shown by the wider media. Do you think you’ll ever put the Gorbachev interview online?

Still got the tape from that one.

Gorbachev, Colin Powell, Jiang Zemin. You’d be amazed the heavy hitters played to empty rooms in parliament house with me and a couple of cameras and no questioners bothered to turn up.

Wow! Did you really interview Gorbachev? That’s pretty cool!

NSW special branch was dismantled IIRC after the Wood Royal Commission.

We’ve got readers here Passy who weren’t born then.

Try to stay relevant.

Heck the other day I told a beautiful and highly intelligent woman that I’d interviewed Mikhail Gorbachev and she had never heard of him.

The world moves on, best move with it.

Jeez, Passy, I don’t know where to start. If you think that ASIO or ‘Special Branch’ behave like the Stasi then I believe you don’t know much about East Germany’s worker’s paradise.

If you believe that a victory for the Taliban in Afganistan would be a ‘step forward for humanity’ then I don’t think you know much about the Taliban.

And just so we’re clear, you campaign for ‘free speech’ and you’ve ‘never seen examples’ of SA shouting down opponents, except of course, if they’re opponents you don’t like. Then it’s justified.

So, if by some miracle the SA gained power, free speech would be an unalienable right -as long as the speech was the correct one.

I think some other countries already have that system. I don’t want to live in any of them.

Passy said :

Of course we have Stasi in Australia. ASIO, Special branch etc perform the same function and role. This is hardly over the top, merely something you may not have seen the links between before.

Sure mate. They’re totally comparable. What a joke.

Do people not have the right to protest anymore against politicians?

Presumably it is OK for Australian politicians to silence or be part of a force that silences the voice of 1 million Iraqis and who knows how many Afghans, but to protest against one of them is some sort of attack on free speech. Really?

Maybe locking refugees up for years in concentration camps was a good example of free speech and proper behaviour? If so you can keep your milksop attachment to free speech.

It is fickle and only arises when you think it is in your political interests to refer to it. Enough of fair weather free speech defenders.

Massive redirect of the question. Come on, admit that you’re pretty embarrassed by that video clip. I would be ashamed if my mates were carrying on like that.

Of course we have Stasi in Australia. ASIO, Special branch etc perform the same function and role. This is hardly over the top, merely something you may not have seen the links between before.

As to free speech if I were to say the victory of the Taliban in Afghanistan would be a victory over imperialism and therefore a step forward for humanity, I am exercising free speech but maybe am breaking Rudd and Howard’s sedition laws. This has nothing to do with black helicopters (or whatever the reference was meant to be to.

Do people not have the right to protest anymore against politicians?

Presumably it is OK for Australian politicians to silence or be part of a force that silences the voice of 1 million Iraqis and who knows how many Afghans, but to protest against one of them is some sort of attack on free speech. Really?

Maybe locking refugees up for years in concentration camps was a good example of free speech and proper behaviour? If so you can keep your milksop attachment to free speech.

It is fickle and only arises when you think it is in your political interests to refer to it. Enough of fair weather free speech defenders.

BTW I have just posted an article on my blog opposing Stanhope’s anti-postering Bill as an attack on free speech in Canberra.

I think Riot Act has a real responsibility to keep itself open to divergent political views in the light of the State’s ongoing attacks on free speech, and not take the opportunity to try to gain financial advantage from the actions of Stanhope and the like.

RA can charge major event organisers all it likes, but please don’t tell community and political groups which are poor that they can’t put notices on RA because they don’t have sufficient Canberra connexion. If they are not for profit organisations and they aren’t supported by big business or pokies, and if the event involves Canberrans and may be of interest to other Canberrans it should be published on RA.

You thinking what I’m thinking B1?

Snap, circusmind,

I wasn’t verballing you Passy. It was an honest observation.

Passy said :

“Shouting down opponents? These are strong accusations. I’ve never seen or heard examples of that”

Please find attached a youtube link of what I believe are SA members attempting to shout down Tony Abbot. Perhaps they are not SA, but I believe they are holding one of your banners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIZjNVb8bUg

btw, we have a stasi in Australia? That kind of talk is exactly what I was referring to in the original comment.

.

Passy said :

Shouting down opponents? These are strong accusations. I’ve never seen or heard examples of that. Who, when, where?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIZjNVb8bUg

I believe that is a Socialist Alternative banner in the background. Appalling behaviour, no matter what your politics is.

ihmotep

I think you are verballing me and Socialist Alternative. I am not sure what extreme views on history means. Support for democratic movements? The view that the Russian revolution was a democratic workers revolution but was defeated? The view that workers in the Stalinist regimes were oppressed and exploited and needed to overthrow their rulers?

Surely your reference to aggressively-worded publicity is a joke? Give me an example? Or do you mean the Liberals pamphlets? Or ACTU anti-work choices posters and fliers? (Pretty tame really.)

Shouting down opponents? These are strong accusations. I’ve never seen or heard examples of that. Who, when, where? As someone whom Australia’s stasi have phone tapped, interviewed etc I find this concern for free speech a little one sided. Where are my rights to free speech, free of Stasi surveillance? (That maybe now be gone since the Australian stasi can just file away my ramblings from my website and other places, or maybe they are too busy investigating Muslims for thought crimes to worry about the likes of inconsequential me.)

Howard’s anti-free speech laws (which Rudd is continuing) for example make it difficult for leftists to talk honestly about Afghanistan and Iraq. Now Rudd is going to strengthen laws to make it illegal to photograph Pine Gap! And here in the ACT Stanhope Labor is attackinging free speech in the name of anti-postering laws. Maybe we could get a group together to campaign against these denials of free speech?

I am the same in public as I am personally and here on RA.

I think I know what imho stands for. What about tep?

Passy said :

(Passy)” My struggle includes support for democracy there and here.”

Passy, I find it hard to reconcile the tolerant, polite and considered way you conduct yourself here on RiotAct with a lot of the antics of the SA crowd at ANU -shouting down opponents, provocative and aggressively-worded publicity, extreme views on history etc.

Why is that? Are you more ‘extreme’ in public than you are personally?

Thanks proofpositive

I’ll let my comrades in China, Egypt, Iran (for example) know you share their commitment to democracy and struggle but excoriate mine.

PB

You say I support the system which enslaved workers (ie stalinism.) There is no evidence for this lie. My whole political life has involved a struggle against stalinism and those who unthinkingly stereotype all socialists as stalinists. My struggle includes support for democracy there and here.

Pommy bastard said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

supported workers in the revolutions against Stalinism. I support workers in China, Cuba and other faux socialist countries against their oppressors.

OK, fair enough. How do you support them? Just curious is all.

By supporting the system which enslaved them of course.

Or just taking the soft option by turning up at protests in this somewhat democratic country, to rant and rave and wave placards. Because repressive regimes pay so much attention to dissenters especially in a country other than their own.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

supported workers in the revolutions against Stalinism. I support workers in China, Cuba and other faux socialist countries against their oppressors.

OK, fair enough. How do you support them? Just curious is all.

By supporting the system which enslaved them of course.

supported workers in the revolutions against Stalinism. I support workers in China, Cuba and other faux socialist countries against their oppressors.

OK, fair enough. How do you support them? Just curious is all.

Shit, just spent 20 minutes typing a response and my computer seized up.

Stalinism is not socialism. It is state capitalism. My commitment to democracy and socialism means, like all the Old Bolsheviks, Stalin would have killed or imprisoned me. For me there can be no socialism without democracy.

I have just written a piece on my website about this wacko Baptist group from the US who praise the fires as God’s revenge and pray for more dead. I say that they are as Christian as Stalin was socialist. In fact they are the intellectual and moral equivalent of Al-Qaeda.

Yet we don’t tar all Christians with their brush. And most of us don’t tar all Muslims with the brush of Al-Qaeda. So why tar all socialist as stalinists?

A truly democratic and socialist society cannot be overthrown easily by an elite or minority.

I supported workers in the revolutions against Stalinism. I support workers in China, Cuba and other faux socialist countries against their oppressors.

We could have these discussions with you at our meetings or stalls too.

It’s time to end the stereotypes.

There does seem to be a lack of accountability for the leaders of socialist empire, doesn’t there…

VYB… Holding hang seems to me something the new agers do. What is motivation? To live on wages that are falling in real terms, if you don’t lose your job?

Wages only fall in real terms if they drop or stay the same in nominal terms. Bear in mind that as the economy grows, so does demand for labour, and hence wage increases. Have a look at some of the wage increases that have happened over the past few years. Consider also that as people work they become more experienced, and are able to take higher paid positions.

It’s very easy to blame capitalism when you’re at the crappy part of the cycle. But like all cycles, things will change again. Just like they did after the early 90’s.

Remember too, that if you lose your job, welfare will be there. The problem is that many people live at or beyond their means, rather than carefully and regularly putting something away. Of course, doing that makes you ‘boring’ according to many, which is why so few do it.

We are very fortunate in the ACT, in that although we don’t ride the extreme economic highs, nor do we typically suffer the lows.

Passy said :

there never been a genuine communist society.

Because you have NEVER lived under a communist regime and don’t have a clue about what it it is actually like to do so. Some of us have actually lived in an eastern bloc country in the height of communism and can speak with authority.

I am quite sure that should there ever be a communism regime you would be one of the few elite clambering to be part of the executive or politburo. Go on tell us that everyone is equal under communism, except for the privileged few that are always more equal than others.

proofpositive

there never been a genuine communist society.

VYB… Holding hang seems to me something the new agers do. What is motivation? To live on wages that are falling in real terms, if you don’t lose your job?

Starscream. Australia changes all the time. In the 30s for example the ACTU, hardly a bastion of radicalism, argued for a 30 hour week (without loss of pay) to fix the Depression.

In the first world war mass strikes shook the Government, and the left’s campaign against conscription won majority support. In 1969 rolling general strikes freed Clarrie O’Shea from jail.

The Communist Party of Australia (despite its thorough stalinism) won lots of support support among workers for its militancy from the 1930s into the 60s.

Often the class struggle is hidden or goes underground. But it occasionally breaks out because workers and bosses have fundamentally opposed interests. But we shouldn’t mistake the class quietude of the last 26 years for an eternal reality.

Look at the situation internationally. The 20 th century was the century of revolution.

It won’t happen in Australia tomorrow, but it can happen at some stage. That’s why I try to build a revolutionary party in Australia. We are a long long long way from that at the moment.

proofpositive said :

Passy when was the last time you lived under a genuine Communist regime?

😀
Australia will never change or have some huge revolution involving the entire working class, IMO. What a retoculous idea.

Maybe we could all hold hands and sing under a rainbow. Socialism’s a nice idea, but unless you motivate the individual, most individuals won’t be real interested in working much. And then nothing will get done, and we’ll be like one of those loser countries where people line up for days for a pair of shoes while the elected leaders live in luxury.

Sounds just great.

Passy when was the last time you lived under a genuine Communist regime?

PB

A flippant answer would be that under socialism everyone would have a Porsche.

But given the democratic nature of decision making that would occur it is likely the alternative would be that public transport infrastructure would be increased massively, and public transport become free.

I know.

PM

I’d prefer being called Lefty Scum.

No worries, Your Majesty.

Thanks PM. Well reasoned. Stick with the intellectuals in the Liberal Party.

Self-indulgent crap.

Peter, ordinary people – working people – can run the world. they can democratically decide what to produce to satisfy needs like food, housing, warmth, clothing, education, health care etc. we don’t need the James packers of the world to run it better than it is now. We all can do it together.

When I dream I want a porche.

Thanks for the last round of comments. They ere good.

circusmind – the people on our stalls are mainly young students, or students finishing their degrees. I’d love an infusion of 18 year olds, but we’ll settle at this stage for the ones and twos.

I suspect like other clubs that most people do walk by. They walk be the Liberals, the ALP, the Labor Left and us. My point was that at least tis year there are a few more people interested in the politics, o at least in having a discussion about our ideas.

I don’t know about ideological blinkers. Maybe that reflects the fact that you and I talk a different language reflecting our different world views. But I do know at least personally dogma is an enemy.

I’m not sure about your comment re every type of marxist government (a contradiction actually) ever attempted. Russia in 1917 arose for a democratic workers revolution. The failure of the revolution, especially in Germany, doomed the revolution. Stalin was the counter revolution. So how can something that has never existed be a failure?

I think the relevance or otherwise of the ideas is whether they are put into practice consciously or even sub-consciously. The long struggles against Stalinism in Eastern Europe were exam,ples of workers struggles – for example – east Germany in 1953, Hungary 1956, Poland in 56, 70 80 etc, Czechoslovakia in 68. And of course 1989 to 1991 when the populations swept away stalinism. I’d add Portugal 74, France in 68, China in 89 as further examples of revolutions or nascent revolutions in China’s case.

It seems to me the 20th century was the century of revolution, and it is unlikely the 21st century will be any different.

Thanks Granny for your comments about having different voices on RA to challenge the accepted wisdom. Maybe it is human nature is to be cooperative, but that is subverted by capitalism?

PB – what happens when the foreman’s job disappears too? (I actually think foremen are caught between workers and bosses but that’s another story.) Another song with similar sentiments is bump me into parliament about becoming a Labor member and selling out.

Peter, ordinary people – working people – can run the world. they can democratically decide what to produce to satisfy needs like food, housing, warmth, clothing, education, health care etc. we don’t need the James packers of the world to run it better than it is now. We all can do it together.

Sung to the tune of “The Red Flag”

The working class can kiss my @rse,
I’ve got the foremans’ job at last.
You’re out of work and on the dole,
You can stuff the red flag up your hole.
The working class can kiss my @rse,
I’ve got the foremans’ job at last.

I think people like Passy add spice to the world and it would be a bland and boring place without ’em. I also think they perform a useful function as a counterweight or sort of social check and balance.

I have to admire anyone who fights so hard for what they believe in, even if I don’t share those beliefs. I love passion in a person.

I consider it to be wise to listen to different points of view without assuming that one already knows all the answers.

I personally believe that socialism is a nice idea doomed to failure by human nature. At least people expect capitalism to be dog eat dog and every man for himself, so they are not so terribly shocked and disappointed when they are deceived, betrayed and generally screwed over for personal gain as will inevitably happen under any system.

Ah Comrade Passy, Trokski would be proud of you.
Do you not remember his immortal impassioned words:
“Where re-education has failed my comrade, the hangman’s noose will succeed…”

i think that i have stumbled onto a differnt way of talking. perhaps for those of us who finished high school and entered the workforce, you could remember that the big words and references to trotsky will be lost on some of us? any chance you can explain what you mean in layman’s terms?

Passy said :

circusmind

Only old fogeys like me hey? What about the 50 people under 25 who manned the stall or came to the talk or signed up to the club?

But glad you noticed us. Why not drop by and have a chat to one of the Uni students who do the stall at different times?

John, you’d have to agree that the SA types at ANU are invariably much older than uni age. Rick at least is an academic, I guess. It’s just not much fun when it’s not even the students agitating. We’re all liberals now. It says a lot about the demise of old left politics.

I have talked to some of the SA people at stalls a couple of times. The reason I don’t come back and do so again is because I’ve never been able to draw any of your people into any sort of meaningful discussion. I’ve signed your petitions on various issues–Hicks, gay rights etc.–but any time I’ve actually asked about a more complex issue, the SA person’s response has been ludicrously and ideologically blinkered and simplistic. To be honest, even the Liberals are more fun. And I did talk to them for a while at O Week.

Ah the old stalinism is communism argument. My ilk as stalinists? You mean the ones like Trotsky that Stalin killed to implement his counter-revolution and develop state capitalism in Russia?

I celebrated the downfall of the Wall. Funny thing about the liberation of Eastern Europe – a revolution swept the dictators away. Hopefully a revolution will do the same in China soon.

And what jobs will these so called contented uni students go to in a few years time?

I didn’t mean Stalinists. I meant every flavour of socialist/marxist government ever attempted. Liberal democracy doesn’t work all the time–but at least it works some of the time. We can’t say the same for socialism. It should be left back in the 20th century where it belongs.

The stupidity must be catching.. anyone got some torches and pitchforks? We could go hunting.

circusmind

Ah the old stalinism is communism argument. My ilk as stalinists? You mean the ones like Trotsky that Stalin killed to implement his counter-revolution and develop state capitalism in Russia?

I celebrated the downfall of the Wall. Funny thing about the liberation of Eastern Europe – a revolution swept the dictators away. Hopefully a revolution will do the same in China soon.

And what jobs will these so called contented uni students go to in a few years time?

Bread and circuses and i-Pods can only keep people happy for so long.

circusmind

Only old fogeys like me hey? What about the 50 people under 25 who manned the stall or came to the talk or signed up to the club?

But glad you noticed us. Why not drop by and have a chat to one of the Uni students who do the stall at different times?

And gingermick and your reference to lefty scum. I hope you develop the capacity for rational thought and argument eventually. Apparently not yet. Until you do stick to the Liberals. They appreciate people of your mighty intellect and capacity to convince.

And to R. Slicker who perhaps chipped me for using manned, I used it deliberately to see if someone would respond. It may well come come from the Latin for hand. I lent a hand. What’s your PC word for manufacture?

Socialism has some ideas that should be included in any society (imho). Ideas such as socialised health care, universally available (affordable) education, welfare to help people find work or deal with a disability.

But a glorious workers revolution? No thanks. It may be romantic to think that a socialist society will be all about sitting in coffee houses discussing Marx, but I guess it’d have a lot more to do with state factories and collective farms.

There may be a wider audience for socialist ideas at uni, but out in the real world there is not.

Don’t get me wrong, a little socialism in politics is a good thing. But it’s such a hidebound ideology that it will never have traction nor attraction enough for a party to gain power or influence if that’s all they have to offer.

What’s that? You were “manning” the stall? I thought socialists were all politically correct and so-called “sexist language” was taboo.

Does it have to be said again? Lefty scum!!

If the mood is changing amongst the yoof, how come the only marxists on campus are ageing baby-boomers? Frankly, you looked very sad spruiking a long-dead ideology as hordes of brand-name-clad, iphone-toting, ambitious and largely content uni kids walked by.

You are an irrelevance. A source of amusement to actual uni students, and little more. Try again in another century–although the first years of 2009 were born after the Wall fell, they’ve not yet forgotten what your ilk did last century.

PB, Einstein was a socialist. I doubt he was brainless.
And paying their way is so much harder now in teh global economic crisis (assuming people ahve or will keep their jobs) that it does create doubts in some people’s minds about just how good captialism is. I doubt he was brainless.

And thanks barking toad. If the experience of one not so ageing socialist on campus is tenuous to RA, then most of the material on RA is suspect. Why can’t we relay our own personal experiences and draw political conclusions from them? Just as you have done in posting to RA.

I never expected the revolution to have occurred 25 years ago. I am saying I think there is a bit of a wider audience at the ANU for socialist ideas – surely the mood on campus is something that is relevant to RA readers? – and that might be true of Canberra or Australia more generally.

barking toad, if you want to stick with failed and disgraced ideologies like neo-liberalism or Keynesianism, (or Rudd’s ‘social democracy’) that’s your choice. A few more people in Canberra (and elsewhere) are starting to question them, that’s all.

I will keep jabbing with the left though. Thanks for the advice and support.

Wow, a political statement on international ssocialism by an ageing socialist posted on RA because of a tenuous link to something that happened at the ANU.

The revolution you expected 25 years ago still hasn’t happened. Keep jabbing with the left though – it’ll keep you fit.

Easy to be a socialist when you’re a student, they soon change their ideas when they have to pay their way in the world…

Thanks Pommy bastard. There sure are a lot of heartless and some brainless people out there then.

If you’re not a socialist by the time you’re 20 you have no heart.
If you’re still a socialist by the time you’re thirty, you have no brain.

Thanks ramblingted.

I am going to mention the upsurges against government in France, Iceland, Greece, factory occupations in the US, UK strikes, instability in China, state leftists in South America (but not in my view socialists), the ongoing resistance in Palestine, the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, to try and make the point that one small spark can set off the flame of rebellion anywhere in the world.

This could even be the case at the ANU or U Can over outsourcing, crap conditions, low student living standards etc. Or more likely, among Australian workers at some stage who get jack of wage cuts, job losses and crap treatment.

A version of this article is on my website.

ANU students of 2009 interested in rebellion? Well, they do get excited when they can’t find a parking spot…don’t know whether that’s enough to send them to the barricades, but you never know..