Canberra's planning madness

Mysteryman said :

JC said :

But to use it correctly, the reason it is planned to cost $600m (remember the $1b is a Liebral figure, the real figure is actually around $525m)

What a load of garbage. Even the Canberra Times, a devout Labor praising rag, is reporting it will cost $800m.

As I recall :

Cost to the private sector supplier will be min. est. M$620 to max. est. M$780.

+ Cost to ACT Gov’t to provide underground cables, power sub stations + other infrastructure requirements is as far as I know, unknown (?). But that is separate.

But, the private provider will want a substantial ROI to cover maintenance, rails, trams, risk, unforseen costs, cost of their money, etc. It is that cost + ACT Gov’t infrastructure costs, that will be the charge to ACT Ratepayers over the next 20 years or so. I reckon that it will blow $1 billion out of the water.

And remember, there is only 3 stops along Northborne Ave (+ Dickson) and its 3 minutes faster Gunners-Civic than an express bus……….

That whole area is dismal – I still recall my heart sinking the first time I drove into the town down Northbourne.

It is utterly typical of the weird values and thinking which dominates Canberra that one, token, mistake from the grim, grey past should be retained and juxtaposed with a yet to be created mistake. Add in the trams and the resultant scarring of Northbourne, and the PC neo-Stalinist fantasy will be complete!

JC said :

But to use it correctly, the reason it is planned to cost $600m (remember the $1b is a Liebral figure, the real figure is actually around $525m)

What a load of garbage. Even the Canberra Times, a devout Labor praising rag, is reporting it will cost $800m.

1967 said :

Postalgeek said :

Instead we have Sky Plaza. I welcome cashed-up foreign investors if it means we are spared such coprolites in future.

I’m still waiting for the owners of Sky Plaza to glass up the two sides of that cube so I can get in a good game of “Extreme Vertigo Squash”

That space would make a great monorail terminus.

Postalgeek said :

Instead we have Sky Plaza. I welcome cashed-up foreign investors if it means we are spared such coprolites in future.

I’m still waiting for the owners of Sky Plaza to glass up the two sides of that cube so I can get in a good game of “Extreme Vertigo Squash”

dungfungus said :

JC said :

chewy14 said :

Both Town Centres have had masterplanning studies done:

http://www.planning.act.gov.au/topics/significant_projects/planning_studies.

They are talking about gradual redevelopment and increased densitites in both.

Exactly, but I takes time (and money) to convert something from what it was designed to 40 odd years ago to do into something that we want it to do now.

Trams were designed 100 years ago so how come it will cost us $1 billion plus to replicate something that will do now what it did then?

Very poor analogy there Dungfungus, very poor.

But to use it correctly, the reason it is planned to cost $600m (remember the $1b is a Liebral figure, the real figure is actually around $525m) is because the route from the City to Gungahlin does not have tram tracks, overhead wires or stops, so they need to be installed and all services around moved to accommodate. You also then need to build a depot that doesn’t exist and then buy trams to run on the line. It cannot be done overnight too it will take a few years.

Which gets back to my point, the Belconnen and Woden town centres were designed for a different time and to change them into hip hop residential areas with all the amenity that goes along with that will take time and money, just like the light rail.

JC said :

chewy14 said :

Both Town Centres have had masterplanning studies done:

http://www.planning.act.gov.au/topics/significant_projects/planning_studies.

They are talking about gradual redevelopment and increased densitites in both.

Exactly, but I takes time (and money) to convert something from what it was designed to 40 odd years ago to do into something that we want it to do now.

Trams were designed 100 years ago so how come it will cost us $1 billion plus to replicate something that will do now what it did then?

chewy14 said :

Both Town Centres have had masterplanning studies done:

http://www.planning.act.gov.au/topics/significant_projects/planning_studies.

They are talking about gradual redevelopment and increased densitites in both.

Exactly, but I takes time (and money) to convert something from what it was designed to 40 odd years ago to do into something that we want it to do now.

JC said :

Affirmative Action Man said :

Good luck with trying to get some logic about sensible planning from this Government. They are so hard up for $$ they will approve anything.

Look at Belconnen & Woden shopping centres – both appalling dogs breakfasts, all over the place, no obvious entrances & badly organised green space.

Agree with first para, but do beg the question how else are they going to make money to run this town.

As for Woden and Belconnen shopping centres, Woden I agree with you, but Belconnen isn’t that bad. It has two clear entrances on main roads and not sure why you would want green space in a shopping centre. But in any case right across the road from one of the main road enterances is a park and 150m further on is the lake foreshore.

But just thinking I am guessing you are not referring to the shopping centres, but the town centres in general. If so keep in mind they were designed and built in the 70’s and 80’s when for general shopping it was felt driving to a mall was the future and everything else around was semi industrial.

It is only in the past 10-15 years that people have felt the need to live in town centres and of course the needs of those vary from the original purpose. So that leaves two options. 1 bulldoze the town centres and start from scratch. Clearly not possible. Or do it over gradually over time. Of course refer to first para about $

Re JCs comment ” Agree with first para, but do beg the question how else are they going to make money to run this town” : Everyone agrees that Gov’t fees and charges need to increase – at the least, at the rate of CPI. But before the ACT Gov’t goes way beyond that (as they already have !) they had better make sure that their spending priorities are in order and are affordable – Hospitals Vs trams for ecample. Now the ACT Gov’t are even proposing to flog off light poles/wires – how desperate is that looking.

I note that the masterplan for Woden includes a drawing of a tram – without the overhead wires again. Yipeee…..but no commitment to that – just a “maybe”.

‘There are so many bad decisions . . . ‘ sums up the ACT Govt nicely, unfortunately. This govt is so greedy they are even intending to sell our light poles and wires and even car parks to make a buck – aligning themselves with the on-the-nose pro-asset-selling feds, for goodness’ sake! Looking forward to all manner of crap developments if that happens.

JC said :

Affirmative Action Man said :

Good luck with trying to get some logic about sensible planning from this Government. They are so hard up for $$ they will approve anything.

Look at Belconnen & Woden shopping centres – both appalling dogs breakfasts, all over the place, no obvious entrances & badly organised green space.

Agree with first para, but do beg the question how else are they going to make money to run this town.

As for Woden and Belconnen shopping centres, Woden I agree with you, but Belconnen isn’t that bad. It has two clear entrances on main roads and not sure why you would want green space in a shopping centre. But in any case right across the road from one of the main road enterances is a park and 150m further on is the lake foreshore.

But just thinking I am guessing you are not referring to the shopping centres, but the town centres in general. If so keep in mind they were designed and built in the 70’s and 80’s when for general shopping it was felt driving to a mall was the future and everything else around was semi industrial.

It is only in the past 10-15 years that people have felt the need to live in town centres and of course the needs of those vary from the original purpose. So that leaves two options. 1 bulldoze the town centres and start from scratch. Clearly not possible. Or do it over gradually over time. Of course refer to first para about $

Both Town Centres have had masterplanning studies done:

http://www.planning.act.gov.au/topics/significant_projects/planning_studies.

They are talking about gradual redevelopment and increased densitites in both.

Affirmative Action Man said :

Good luck with trying to get some logic about sensible planning from this Government. They are so hard up for $$ they will approve anything.

Look at Belconnen & Woden shopping centres – both appalling dogs breakfasts, all over the place, no obvious entrances & badly organised green space.

Agree with first para, but do beg the question how else are they going to make money to run this town.

As for Woden and Belconnen shopping centres, Woden I agree with you, but Belconnen isn’t that bad. It has two clear entrances on main roads and not sure why you would want green space in a shopping centre. But in any case right across the road from one of the main road enterances is a park and 150m further on is the lake foreshore.

But just thinking I am guessing you are not referring to the shopping centres, but the town centres in general. If so keep in mind they were designed and built in the 70’s and 80’s when for general shopping it was felt driving to a mall was the future and everything else around was semi industrial.

It is only in the past 10-15 years that people have felt the need to live in town centres and of course the needs of those vary from the original purpose. So that leaves two options. 1 bulldoze the town centres and start from scratch. Clearly not possible. Or do it over gradually over time. Of course refer to first para about $

Good luck with trying to get some logic about sensible planning from this Government. They are so hard up for $$ they will approve anything.

Look at Belconnen & Woden shopping centres – both appalling dogs breakfasts, all over the place, no obvious entrances & badly organised green space.

arescarti42 said :

If developers could actually build an apartment that was aesthetically pleasing and environmentally sensitive at a price new home buyers could afford, don’t you think they would?

Instead we have Sky Plaza. I welcome cashed-up foreign investors if it means we are spared such coprolites in future.

They’re not towers. They are relatively small. They have sound and defensible heritage value. They are worth keeping as part of Canberra’s social and architectural history. And, one of them can have a “Paul McDermott of DAAS lived here” plaque!

The Canberra planning and development agencies continue to allow developers to build new buildings that do nothing for the environment, that ignore all the climate change issues and have little or no aesthetic values.

Environmental credentials and architectural values are expensive, and it’s not the ACT Government or developers who have to pay for them – it’s new home buyers, who are also usually grappling with the already astronomical cost of housing in Canberra.

Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on solar panels and architectural credentials like you posited in your previous piece on Dickson pushes the cost of housing outside the range of what is affordable for many people, denying them a home. Why should people be denied a home, just because you perceive a building to be ugly?

Additionally, in many ways the ACT planning and development agencies force developers to build crappy, cheap, buildings by persisting with the policy failures that have made housing so horrendously expensive and difficult to build.

If developers could actually build an apartment that was aesthetically pleasing and environmentally sensitive at a price new home buyers could afford, don’t you think they would?