Disputing a speeding fine

Get over it. Not all of us agree with the current road safety measures. People can, and should dispute silly fines.

I disagree that with the compact arrangement, where the police issue a fine but don’t have to prove it. It gives police too much power.

Disputing a fine if done out of civil disobedience is a very responsible action.

I am not a troll.

And for that reason when you are pulled up by a copper using their hand held laser – they have to show you the recorded speed – and advise you if you ask about the device’s last calibration.

mdme – nope I just don’t think she was doing that speed. So I am looking to satisfy myself that the info the authorities are relying on is kosher. If it is – we’ll happily pay. If not – then we (and all other motorists)have the right to have the infringement withdrawn….

Remember – it’s up to them to prove that you were speeding.

@AG Canberra – I don’t think Tooks was saying you shouldn’t dispute it. If you genuinely think there is something wrong, ask for the calibration records and get your speedo checked.

IMHO the way you have written it was not so much ‘This is outrageous – completely impossible!’ as ‘Missus has f**ked up and didn’t realise the camera was there – how do I get out of it?’

Come on, AG … we all know when we’ve been done.

I’m with you there Tooks. I’ve been watching this thread with interest, and it blows me away that there does exist a few people who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions.

Don’t want a ticket? Don’t speed…

For the record, I certainly don’t profess to be a perfect driver. In fact, I speed quite a bit. But if I get a ticket, I’ll pay the damn thing and slow down next time. It’s not rocket science…

Tooks – if I don’t ask about calibration etc how do I know if I have grounds to dispute?

How about disputing fines that you genuinely have grounds for disputing, rather than being some tosser who doesn’t take responsibility for his/her actions.

bloodnut said :

Dispute everything on principle.

quote]

Correct. You are innocent until proved otherwise. There is a person in Queensland called Speeding fine consultants (www.speeddingfineconsultants.com.au) that has a pretty good track record of evading a fine. For a fee he will send you the ammunition that you need in court. It is quite good advice and worth the money but will prbably be more than the fine.

I have been relatively successful with contesting fines and my advice is to start a letter writing campaign and just drag it out. The more people that do this the more the system becomes bogged down and hopefully grinds to a halt. Until a court has ruled against you then there is no record and no conviction. The downside of this is that if you do contest it then the ACT is the only State(?) that lists court appearances on your record with the Federal Police records keeping area. Every other State just keeps a local copy but in the ACT you will have a record that will come up every time a security clearance is performed. Not a big deal but it will slow down your security clearance if you require one.

Forget about lawyers. Any lawyer that does speeding fines is a loser and at the bottom of the barrel. Go to a court session and watch others defend themselves. You will see that the lawyers are hopeless by comparison. Good luck.

The best way to prove you were not speeding would be to have a tracking system in your car that tells you what your true speed was. I got done for speeding but lucky for me my tracking system proved thats the camera was wrong and it was not me. I’m so glad i got my tracking system from FleetM8 in England. Best thing i’ve ever done.

http://www.fleetm8.com

Thanks for all the useful (and not so useful!) assistance.

I think I’ll take this plan:
Ask them to provide me with the calibration information (of the camera) – then if that’s all kosher I’ll appeal based on the missus good driving record.

As it has been said before – a ccouple of letters costs me nothing…

Cheers

Or, if you are like me, speed consistently, slow down for speed cameras or spots where they frequent (or if I consider it to be specifically hazardous), and get exactly one speeding ticket in 13 years of driving.

“As was said before, if everyone did this then it would become uneconomical to use speed cameras to raise revenue.”

Wasn’t it a fixed camera? Most fixed cameras are clearly marked in Canberra or are so well known that they might as well be signposted. How could you claim that it’s for ‘revenue raising’ when this is the case?

As was said before, if everyone did this then it would become uneconomical to use speed cameras to raise revenue.

I love all this banter. But the real truth and bottom line is DON’T SPEED, and you won’t get a speeding fine!

darkmilk said :

Maybe a sarcastic man should know that radar and lasers both travel at the same speed of light?

OK, well, if we’re going to be smartarses and be picky:
– Light and microwave radiation won’t travel at the same speed as each other in anything except a perfect vacuum. With such vastly different frequencies the dispersion would be significant.
– they won’t actually travel at the single “speed of light” figure normally quoted as that’s a vacuum – the speed in air will be slower, and vary depending on the weather.

You might get the feeling by now I know a bit about these sort of things – it’s what I do for a crust.

LOL! Thats beautiful!

smeeagain said :

Have you had the speedo in your own car tested and calibrated? Ever thought that perhaps it is your vehicle that has the fault rather than the regularly serviced and maintained speed cameras?

Unless you suspect a problem with your speedo, very few people bother to have them looked at. They sure aren’t covered in a normal car service.

Premier instruments in Dickson do speedo calibration. Not sure of anywhere else.

Do you work there?

PantsMan said :

They have to summons you first. That’s free, but a pain in the arse for them.

Yeah that extra half hour of paperwork really hurts.

They have to summons you first. That’s free, but a pain in the arse for them.

Court cost $110 when you ask for a date.

Yeah forgot about that trick.

If all else fails, dispute the ticket and ask for your day in court. At 4:50 the day before pay the fine.

As was said before, if everyone did this then it would become uneconomical to use speed cameras to raise revenue.

Have you had the speedo in your own car tested and calibrated? Ever thought that perhaps it is your vehicle that has the fault rather than the regularly serviced and maintained speed cameras?

Unless you suspect a problem with your speedo, very few people bother to have them looked at. They sure aren’t covered in a normal car service.

Premier instruments in Dickson do speedo calibration. Not sure of anywhere else.

One thing can do is ask for it to be withdrawn under section 30 of the Road Transport (General) Act 1999. They are required to make an administrative decision about whether or not to withdraw it. In making that decision, they have to ensure you receive natural justice, procedural fairness, access to justice, as well as a bunch of other things, as per the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act 1989.
When you write to them make sure you outline all those reasons why it would be outrageous and a denial of procedural fairness and natural justice for them not to withdraw it. For example, as your daughter is (presumably) a student the infringement notice would have a significantly higher financial effect on your daughter than other people, and, it would be unfair to prosecute your daughter because the cost of obtaining an expert to interpret the photograph would be significantly larger than the cost of paying the infringement notice, and would mean that, your daughter is, in effect, economically denied an opportunity present evidence in her defense in court.
Basically, try and get them to make an unfair decision, a decision that has the effect of denying you an opportunity to present evidence in your defense, a wrong decision, or no decision at all. Moreover, try and get them to write to you and lie about the law. They may say that a recent Supreme Court case now means they don’t have to make a decision under section 30, but that case is Pang v Rawlinson, and it does not say anything of the sort. Then go to the Commonwealth Ombudsman and ask for their decision to be reviewed.
If the tell you that you are going to be prosecuted, then don’t stress. You have until the day before the court hearing date to just pay it, and it’s just as if you paid it originally.
Don’t ask how I know all this.

Skidbladnir said :

http://www.27bslash6.com/overdue.html

Feel free to have a look around David thorne’s other stuff, but some is SFW, others not.

Thanks Skid, I’ll look at it from home. If it’s anything like the spider thing, none of it is safe for work, because the hysterical laughter would give the game away real quick.

darkmilk said :

Maybe a sarcastic man should know that radar and lasers both travel at the same speed of light?

You might get the feeling by now I know a bit about these sort of things – it’s what I do for a crust.

Time-travelling vacuum cleaner saleman?

Put a few rounds in it while you are at it to make it look authentic.

If there wasn’t a few laws that prohibit the use of high-powered rifles in the city I would have arranged this already.

The Ned Kelly suit is a great idea. Might have to look into that…

Put a few rounds in it while you are at it to make it look authentic.

Maybe a sarcastic man should know that radar and lasers both travel at the same speed of light?

OK, well, if we’re going to be smartarses and be picky:
– Light and microwave radiation won’t travel at the same speed as each other in anything except a perfect vacuum. With such vastly different frequencies the dispersion would be significant.
– they won’t actually travel at the single “speed of light” figure normally quoted as that’s a vacuum – the speed in air will be slower, and vary depending on the weather.

You might get the feeling by now I know a bit about these sort of things – it’s what I do for a crust.

Being an assh0le about paying speeding fines does not make you Ned Kelly.

Quite so. However, has anyone else ever thought that the fixed speed camera boxes bear a passing resemblance to Ned’s famous helmet? I’ve oft considered adding a giant Ned Kelly suit onto the pole below one.

ant said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Send them a picture of a seven legged spider as payment.

I don’t have a clue what it means, but I’m laughing like a drain at that!

http://www.27bslash6.com/overdue.html

Feel free to have a look around David thorne’s other stuff, but some is SFW, others not.

bloodnut said :

Not only does it feel so much better to go down fighting, but it is my long held belief that if everyone contested their traffic offences then the govt would reassess the cost-benefit of aggressively pursuing revenue in this manner.

It’s just a traffic ticket, bloodnut. What’s with all the “go down fighting” rhetoric? If you get caught speeding, this is because you were doing the wrong thing, not because of “aggressive revenue raising”. Speeding is dangerous and costs lives, right? If you’re busted speeding, you owe it to everyone to suck it up, pay the fine and not speed in future.

Being an assh0le about paying speeding fines does not make you Ned Kelly.

Theresa Brennan!

What i have always wanted to know is do they have three detectors and three cameras in the device (one for each lane) or how can you tell which lane is speeding when all three lanes have cars at the same point?

I believe these things are radar based, so each car will give a return signal at a different time, which can be used to calculate the distance to each car separately. Then either the Doppler (frequency) shift or measuring the distances multiple times will show the speed for each car separately too. However, if there is a larger vehicle between the camera/radar and you then it might block your image from both the radar and camera…

Also I think some of them have had detector loops installed in the road, probably for this reason?

Gerry-Built said :

The “10% error margin” thing is a myth (maybe tolerance from radar gun days???). Newer equipment uses light (ie laser) rays, which travel “somewhat” faster, and are therefore a “little” more accurate. [yes dear, that’s sarcasm]

Maybe a sarcastic man should know that radar and lasers both travel at the same speed of light?

jake555 said :

vandam, thank you – how hard is it? Don’t break the law by speeding, and you will not be contributing in any way to ‘revenue raising’.

H1NGO “…the speed van is a revenue raiser and an poor substitute for real cops doing real work…” – Would you prefer all cops to be standing on the side of the road with a laser…?

You think “real work” is standing on the side of a road with a camera? You are an idiot.

The “10% error margin” thing is a myth (maybe tolerance from radar gun days???). Newer equipment uses light (ie laser) rays, which travel “somewhat” faster, and are therefore a “little” more accurate. [yes dear, that’s sarcasm]

Indeed Mr Tams says 2km/h error margin is legislated (with the machines presumably far more accurate than that!).

Of course, you could visit the TAMS site to find contact numbers to pursue your case (oh, and a link about disputing a fine). I like the comment “Only speeding motorists should fear a speed camera” from the TAMS site too…

However, when I saw the TAMS mobile speed camera display at the Shannon’s Car Fair a couple of years ago, the TAMS reps did mention that the cameras received “regular servicing” which did include calibration, and you would have to dispute the calibration tests… I disputed a parking ticket many years ago, and was successful having provided evidence that signage was not at legislated intervals required – but that’s a convincing argument – 21km/h over the limit, even given a slightly inaccurate sensor – unlikely!

Also – interesting read here…

Spam Box @ #10: “Or tell em Marcus Einfeld was driving” – GOLD!!!

Oh my! That has to be about the funniest thing I’ve seen in months, maybe years. Took me a while to read cos I was laughing too much. I love it when he wants his spider back!

ant said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Send them a picture of a seven legged spider as payment.

I don’t have a clue what it means, but I’m laughing like a drain at that!

http://www.geekologie.com/2008/11/good_idea_man_submits_drawing.php – Classic.

ant said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Send them a picture of a seven legged spider as payment.

I don’t have a clue what it means, but I’m laughing like a drain at that!

This was all over sites like Reddit, Digg etc last week – here’s a random link with the content : http://www.geekologie.com/2008/11/good_idea_man_submits_drawing.php

It’s very funny, albeit as fake as hell.

in the area at the time too

You could go to the Dickson Motor Registry and actually see the picture in person instead of asking to print you a copy and send in the mail. If you still want to dispute you need to go through the AFP here: http://afp.gov.au/act/road_traffic/paying_traffic_fines.html

You can either, apply have the the notice withdrawn which they make a decision of yes/no and let you know and doesn’t cost anything, or dispute the liability which involves going to court and obviously may cost $$.

Personally if your wife was driving in the area in the car and it looks very much like her car, I’d be paying the fine. Could try applying to withdraw based on her driving history, couldn’t do any harm.

Most of the time it would cost more to dispute the fine than to just pay it. One of the many problems with the justice system.

On a positive note, if your wife has had a clean record for 10 years write a letter to the address on the back saying:

“I understand road safety is something we must all take responsibility for…..It was a uncharacteristic lapse of concentration while overtaking… I am sorry, I will never do it again, this has been a real wake up call”. Something like that.

I have seen it work more than once in NSW.

I bet it would feel good to get out of it with nice cheap words. For sure beats paying the fine or paying lawyer/court costs.

Costs nothing to try.

Under the principles of admin law one is offered the opportunity to tell their story before the penalty is actually applied. That is just in case you have a reasonable excuse, such as “I wasn’t doing the speed”. If your wife really believes she didn’t do it,as opposed to having a good previous record it is worth writing a letter politely asking the questions about the accuracy of the camera. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.

If it is a matter of principle for you and your wife, by all means take it to court and argue that the automated detection is not infallible. You would need to have evidence of the accuracy of the camera and a few witnesses to swear that travelling with your wife driving is like watching paint dry.

Holden Caulfield said :

Send them a picture of a seven legged spider as payment.

I don’t have a clue what it means, but I’m laughing like a drain at that!

The last ticket I disputed. It took me a long time(with a canceled license)to convince the police that the pictured car was not mine. The number plates where from a car I no longer owned and I was living interstate at the time of the offense. It wasn’t till a good lawyer wrote a strongly worded letter that the fine was finally dropped. No amount of phone calls or letters from me helped even though it was obviously not my car. This was made worse by the fact I couldn’t afford to pay the fine, or court or a lawyer.

Good luck.

Pay the fine, unless you can find a fault with the Camera that will stand up in court you don’t really have a leg to stand on. If it turns out the Camera was faulty they would have to re-emburse you the money and points. Otherwise your likely to spend $1000 to save $200.

The fact that you are also casing a dodgy “maybe my rego number wasn’t distinguishable” argument when you know it’s your car, makes all your arguments dodgy. Just pay up. BTW they probably have a higher res version, and in any case the have the technology to identify the plate where your eye can’t …

i never knew it picked up the turning lane there either. I’m sure I have been doing more than 80 most times i go past there…never 101 though!

I have never had a speeding ticket in the ACT (been here 9 years) and I drive past three each way on the way to work each and every day! I have thought I might have gotten one a few times, especially when I have zoned out on the parkway and not consciously checked my speed.

What i have always wanted to know is do they have three detectors and three cameras in the device (one for each lane) or how can you tell which lane is speeding when all three lanes have cars at the same point?

vandam said :

Firstly, 20 years without a fine = 20 years without being caught!

Secondly, speed cameras, whilst might be revenue raisers, only raise revenue if motorists exceed the speed limit (mind you I think they give you an allowance of 10% +1).

Thirdly, Its going to cost you more going to court to dispute it.

At the end of the day your wife was caught speeding.

There is a consequence to the obvious action – but are you saying that you would happily sell your right to dispute the appropriateness of that consequence?

AG Canberra – dispute in our fair Canberra Courts my friend and take back what these souls – which by their apathy – would see us all denied.

Holden Caulfield said :

Send them a picture of a seven legged spider as payment.

GOLD!

good to know that you can get done in the lane going to isabella dr… i was wondering about that. i thought it might only cover the 2 lanes.

*makes mental note*

vandam, thank you – how hard is it? Don’t break the law by speeding, and you will not be contributing in any way to ‘revenue raising’.

H1NGO “…the speed van is a revenue raiser and an poor substitute for real cops doing real work…” – Would you prefer all cops to be standing on the side of the road with a laser…?

I have my doubts about that camera AG, my one and only ticket was from that camera – 90 kph on a slip road approaching a roundabout? Debateable but “the camera never lies” so I paid, not worth the lost income in going over to request the pic and argue the toss but suss to say the least.

Firstly, 20 years without a fine = 20 years without being caught!

Secondly, speed cameras, whilst might be revenue raisers, only raise revenue if motorists exceed the speed limit (mind you I think they give you an allowance of 10% +1).

Thirdly, Its going to cost you more going to court to dispute it.

At the end of the day your wife was caught speeding.

I got fined for speeding once… it was completely out of character for me to get caught…

As Jim Jones noted, even if the cameras were off, it is extremely unlikely they were 21km off. Your wife was speeding – the speed limit was 80, she was clearly going over (regardless of how fast over). Pay the fine.

RING first – there is a number on the invoice you received. They will tell you how to write/fax in. You do not want to formally dispute it as that involves the court and money as stated above by others.

It is highly likely she will have the fine waived if she has a good driving record, ie, no driving offences.

Send them a picture of a seven legged spider as payment.

All regulations are available at legislation.act.gov.au. Could take you a while to find them.

Write a letter disputing the speed in the very small hope they may downgrade the speed(probably wont though) – accept that it’s >95% chance your wife actually did speed and it’s not worth all the drama and expense to fight something your almost certainly going to lose anyway

Or tell em Marcus Einfeld was driving – whatever 🙂

I have been nabbed at the same camera (89 in the 80) and in the same right hand lane. No doubt it was my car, though the plate was not legible. I suspect you get a low quality print of the original.

I’m fairly sure that in a previous thread on here, someone explained that the infringement notices are issued by an arm of the ACT public service. Any approach by you for a review of the fine is handled by ACT Police. Could be worth a try.

more than 20 years without a fine – so as I said it is completely out of character….

So anyone know of where I can find the regulations concerning the operation of these devices?

Dispute everything on principle.

I have a friend that has contested every traffic infrigement and despite dozens of charges, continues to win based on their clean record. This seems to work as each previous unsubstantiated offence has been been removed from record.

If it’s not in your wife’s character she will have a clean record and almost definitely get off. If she has previous traffic offences then you should question the validity of your previous statement – but still contest. Not only does it feel so much better to go down fighting, but it is my long held belief that if everyone contested their traffic offences then the govt would reassess the cost-benefit of aggressively pursuing revenue in this manner.

Shit I have been fined too and that was out of character, but I still bloody did it and paid the consequence. As much as the speed van is a revenue raiser and an poor substitute for real cops doing real work, its the law and we have to deal with it. Pay the fine and be done with it. She needs to show some resposibility for her actions.

Pay the fine. Going to court costs. I think its $110 for the court appearance. Add to that a lawyer. If you think you have a case for it not being your car or you were not the driver then you should go in person to the red light camera office and present your case. They will tell you what your options are. Do not believe what you read on the back of the fine. Writing a letter does nothing. It sounds like you accept its your vehicle, so pay the fine and be done with it. Less, time, pain and effort.

The out of character thing isn’t meant as a defence – more that I just can’t believe she was doing 101…which brings me to the calibration and across three lanes topics.

Anecdotally, the authorities make a a 10% margin for error allowance when dealing with speed recording devices, but the actual recorded margin of error is pretty negligible when it comes to fixed speed cameras. Obviously that’s not gonna cut it when the case is 101kph in an 80 zone.

To be honest, I’d suck it up and pay the fine. The ‘out of character’ argument just isn’t a defence.

As far as I know, and I could be wrong. The cameras and detecting devices are not covered by the Department of Weights and Measures (or whatever they are called now) and therefore the calibration is going to be suspect. I would ask to see the paperwork for the last time that the unit in question was calibrated, who did it and what their qualifications were and when they say no, remind them that it is a piece of public equipment and therefore you have the right to see it. It might work as there have been many cases before the courts on this matter and some precedents have been set.

I would argue the matter if you are unhappy. Good luck.

Don’t know about cameras specifically, but if the speeding is that out of character that your wife hasn’t had a speeding ticket for 10 years or more then write in and plead leniency as she’ll probably get away with a warning. (You’ll need to attach the report saying this from any states she held a licence in anytime in those 10 years. A few years ago this cost something like $25 in one of the states and free here in the ACT?)