Gungahlin's Frustrations with the Internet

peterh said :

The levels of service experienced by the op are through internode. Internode haven’t been here for too long. They are trying to gain market share with crazy deals, targeting the isp’s that operate here in a bid to not have to work very hard to win. It is an issue that the crazy deal is all well and good, but the actual service delivery sucks.

The speed one gets with ADSL in Gungahlin is not a function of what ISP they are with. All ADSL through Gungahlin goes though Telstra through CMUXes (you’ll find most houses are connected to CMUXes and not directly to an exchange simply because the exchange that services Gungahlin is all the way in Mitchell). If CMUXes are congested, as what the OP is saying, then it is Telstra’s fault.

Sorry should have been Growling Ferret #12 I use ADSL2 it is fantastic, my IT friend could not believe how fast my computer was, and great support, I have been with iinet.net.au for over three years.

El # 13 ditto

ACT_Broadband, mate all I can say is WOW! Your efforts have been nothing short of inspiring. I am in QLD at the moment and did get to hear the interview, but cant wait to read the transcript.

In mentioning the 3G network, I am with optus and my reception is bad in Harrions (wells station) and the bandwidth is a shocker. I have also used the Telstra NextG at home too and it was pretty ordinary. And for those suggesting 3G unfortunately from my experience it is no replacement for fixed connections despite the current situation.

I am not a fan of TransACT’s prices or setup for FTTH in places like Franklin (I have a friend who has moved in and is paying $60pm for simple line rental!!!) But I almost feel like calling on TransACT to rollout Gungahlin, however I dont know the rules and regulation which I am sure are probably in place to stop such activities.

Good Luck and we all watch to see Telstra’s next move.

Primal said :

Are we talking about the same Internode? I’ve been with them in Canberra (WECK exchange) both on Telstra gear and Node’s own for a few years now, and you’re off on just about every last comment there…

Indeed. Anyone would think he was a Telstra reseller…

Not sure that the ACT MLA’s will be able to help too much as communications is a Commonwealth responsibility. Several of my colleagues live up in Gungahlin suburbs and its a nightmare – particularly if they have to remote into work. Internode is definitely top notch in terms of ISP service, using them both for business grade and residential connections. I could count in minutes the downtime I’ve had in the past four years I’ve been connected.

peterh said :

Internode haven’t been here for too long. They are trying to gain market share with crazy deals, targeting the isp’s that operate here in a bid to not have to work very hard to win. It is an issue that the crazy deal is all well and good, but the actual service delivery sucks.

I thought internode were using the optus wholesale ADSL as their deliverable, not Telstra. Internode live and breathe rural, it is one of their redeeming qualities.

Are we talking about the same Internode? I’ve been with them in Canberra (WECK exchange) both on Telstra gear and Node’s own for a few years now, and you’re off on just about every last comment there…

Mate, good luck. I’m in Nicholls myself, and have all of those issues.

Those who say you’re Telstra-bashing are just ignoring reality.

Yes, goodluck ACT Broadband. I recently applied to get ADSL2+ with Internode and got the notice that our copper pairs to our premises are incompatible with Internode’s ADSL2+. I live in Franklin, a suburb which has existed for less than 2 yrs. Grrrr. Apparently its well known amongst many ISPs nationally that Crace is a problematic exchange. Telstra sucks… (however I will give credit to the Telstra technicians who do a good job at connecting us with the exchanges, that is, if it can be done in the first place).

Kramer said :

This is the gamble of living in new suburbs (or town centers) where infrastructure is not fully established. Tuggerangong & Belconnen aren’t looking so bad now…

I don’t know how old the suburb is where you live Mr Overlord. Palmerston has existed for 18 years – my early 90’s laminate kitchen is testament to the period. I am sure 18 years old constitutes something other than “new.”

This simple fact remains – Anyone connected to a RIM/CMUX is locked into a Telstra Wholesale service. There are no other options other than wireless. But be aware of the wireless options on offer. many of the mobile towers in Gungahlin also terminate at Crace exchange. Seeing that is where some of the congestion issues are….who is to say that service will not suffer the same fate.

ACT_Broadband – good luck in your quest for something resemlbing a quality service.

Agreed with H1NG0, the “shortcuts” Teltra took in the 90s with installing RIMs instead of extra copper pairs – or even better, another exchange in the region – are now hurting everyone. Growth speed had little to do with it.

However, there’s not much to say other than point to privitisation as the reason why everyone is screwed. Telstra will only spending money upgrading infrastructure in the region if it makes them money. It’s even less likely to make them money now that 1) they can put people on 3G instead and 2) the NBN has been announced and will “soon” compete for Telstra’s dollars.

n2kaja – it’s interesting to hear it from a former employee. I’d imagine upgrading backhaul from the worst affected RIMs (well, ADSL capable mini-CMUXes to use the proper term) would cost a lot less than a million dollars ..

fox – minimum guaranteed sync rate is 256kbps actually.

peterh – your description of Internode is WAY off the mark. They are neither crazy, nor newcomers, nor target ISPs. The problem users on Crace exchange is NOT that it is “talking back to the old copper network” (whatever that mixed up statement means) – it is that most users of Crace exchange were put on the aforementioned CMUXes, which don’t have sufficient backhaul bandwidth. Comprende?

Gooterz, everybody should have the ability to access a basic ADSL service at the very least, after all, it is available in rural towns. I lived in Orance in a house that was about 100 years old with crappy lines and even that had ADSL2. Telstra took short cuts in an effort to save them money in the 90’s which is the cause of these broadband problems today. Why shouldn’t they be blamed for this mess?

People will always complain about internet. Once u give them dialup they want want broadband. Once they get that they want reliable broadband. I think that most people who are familiar with the internet grew up with various stages of frustration, but in the end we all managed to get further along as time went on.

It takes alot of planning to upgrade things, as such it was said that Gungahlin was the fastest growing so its the reason why the internet is so congested so quickly..
One major factor in all of this is the NBN (new broadband network). The governments decision to open bids and everything over the last year or so, has caused people like telsta to stop upgrading its networks somewhat.
If anything u should be banging on Transacts door, last news was that they were going to start upgrading their networks!

Good work ACT_Broadband and good luck. I think you should cover not only the performance issues, but highlight the fact that there are still many places in Ngunnawal and other areas of Gungahlin where people are totally unable to get any kind of broadband service via their phone line. I know several cases of this along Wanganeen Avenue. Telstra are doing absolutely nothing about this, hence why I was on dial-up until I moved to my new place.

Thanks for all the support – The ABC Radio interview request blew me off my feet, didn’t expect that.

I am about to post 8 letters to the Chief Minister and all the members for Molonglo. They will be in the post by 3:00pm.

I will post a copy of these letters on http://www.actbroadband.net tonight.

Kate Lundy and other Federal Ministers are next.

Thanks for all the support

Gungahlin Al – contact me.

Pair gain connections + RIM + poor backhaul to the Crace exchange will always mean that Gungahlin and the surrounding areas will have poor ADSL connections. I don’t know if there’s a viable solution to this problem at this stage apart from pushing out a new network alongside Telstra’s, given their lack of enthusiasm to deal with the issue.

I have to agree with Woody Mann-Caruso though, I can’t call Gungahlin much more than a remote community due to it’s proximity to the rest of the city.

Ultimately it’s a satellite city filled with suburbia and very little commercial development, which ultimately limits the potential income stream from the area and leaves little financial incentive to upgrade the underlying infrastructure.

Good luck with your endeavour.

Sadly, n2kaja is correct. Nothing will change, as Telstra just don’t care. They have no interest in providing decent comms solutions to anyone.

“The board and management have always had, and will continue to have, the interests of shareholders as our over-riding priority.”

Cite: A “public letter to Telstra shareholders” printed in the Courier-Mail and other newspapers

I’m guessing this Telstra employee if fine with the latency of wireless internet. Next G is not a suitable replacement for ADSL. With its high costs, performance issues and rediculously small data limits, it simply doesn’t cut it.

The problem is that Telstra took shortcuts when they implemented Gungahlin’s communication infrastructure and it should be their responsibility to fix the problems caused by it. Offering wireless is not the solution and it is a cop out. The more publicity that is drawn to this the better.

This issue has been covered this afternoon by Genevieve on 666, after picking the issue up here on RA.
I’ll try to get an audio clip posted on the GCC website over the next day. (Thanks to Jonathon Reynolds for recording it for me.)

Following my interview the guy from Telstra said he is living in Gungahlin but being perfectly happy with his NextG wireless service. So I was immediately kicking myself for not raising how absurd it is for Telstra to be saying that people who can’t even get basic ADSL1 should just go wireless. Expensive + slow + low caps = unacceptable. In fact I think one could mount a decent case that Telstra has fostered the situation to force people onto it wireless service to get it up to critical mass quicker. In the same way they pushed more and more people away from landlines to mobiles.

After many years of pursuing the issue when in opposition to her credit, the ball will be very much in Senator Kate Lundy’s court to make sure that the NBN rollout does not neglect Gungahlin’s broadband issues and get us a lasting fix to the underlying infrastructure and anticompetitive problems.

Maybe internet connections available (or not available) should be listed along with energy ratings for house sales….House prices in Gungahlin would drop overnight wouldn’t they?

My 30 year old place down at Surf Beach gets faster speeds that what I hear are avail in Gungahlin – and that’s back to an exchange at Moruya!

Sorry to say nothing will change, I worked for Telstra country wide and took calls daily on this subject. No matter what I did or how hard I tried I could not resolve any issues, it won’t happen. Without spending millions and millions it won’t change. And believe me there isn’t enough return that will come back to them to fork out the money to fix it. It’s just not to their benefit.

Oh and if people want to see what RIM they are conencted to and how many ports are available, it is worth checking out the Telstra Wholesale site:

http://telstrawholesale.com/products/data/adsl-reports-plans.htm

The probably with Gungahlin is its Pair Gains, not so much the exchange. All ISP’s will tell you that you are connected to Crace exchange and that you should be able to get ADSL no worries until you sign up and they realise that you are up the creek because you are connected to a Pair Gains system and Telstra need to look for an alternative solution.

For anyone on BogPond, you should be able to use other providers who use Telstra’s Wholesale infrastructure. There are much cheaper alternatives to BogPond.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Optus is listed as a provider at the CRACE exchange, which generally means naked is available through any ISP that offers naked plans.

Everyone in Gunghalin hangs off Crace (possibly even via the Sub-Exchange).. due to the problems outlined by the website and comments above – you can’t use Optus DSLAMs

However, I’d like to be wrong about this

peterh said :

The levels of service experienced by the op are through internode. Internode haven’t been here for too long. They are trying to gain market share with crazy deals, targeting the isp’s that operate here in a bid to not have to work very hard to win. It is an issue that the crazy deal is all well and good, but the actual service delivery sucks.

I thought internode were using the optus wholesale ADSL as their deliverable, not Telstra. Internode live and breathe rural, it is one of their redeeming qualities. The problem here is that the crace exchange is talking back to the old copper network, so the connection is degrading before it gets to crace. Once the exchanges are upgraded – however long that takes, Gungahlin will have great coverage.

You do know that Agile is the sister company of Internode. Agile for infrustructure, Internode for ISP related services. If you get connected to an Internode/Agile DSLAM, you are unlikely to have the issues people around here, who are connected through a Telstra Wholesale DSLAM, get. Internode customers aren’t the only ISP customers experiencing these issues when going through a TW DSLAM. Other ISP’s are having issues related to this, even Bigpond.

peterh said :

Most of my friends in Gungahlin have jumped onto 3 or NextG – they get great coverage and are mobile.

NextG isn’t a solution for a lot of us. The latency you get from that compared to ADSL is just lackluster. Add to that the data costs and it’s just not viable for the stuff that some people need to do.

Growling Ferret said :

Being fed up with Telstra, I’m looking elsewhere for my service provider.

Is naked ADSL through IInet available in Gungahlin? Anyone with any user experiences of the product?

For information about the state of Canberra’s exchanges: http://www.adsl2exchanges.com.au/viewexchange.php?Exchange=CRCF

Optus is listed as a provider at the CRACE exchange, which generally means naked is available through any ISP that offers naked plans.

Re #1: I’m in North Lyneham and can only go with Telstra. The townhouses where I live were all intended to be wired for Transact, but unfortunately units 1-25 were built before cable started being laid. I’m in one of those unfortunate units – our only option is to connect via Bigpond to a standard ADSL connection through a RIM.

We go through to the Civic exchange but regularly suffer dropouts and below normal speeds (6.4mbps -> 0.2mbps download). Bigpond won’t accept my complaints because the minimum ADSL connection they need to supply is 0.1mbps.

The thought of buying a new place just to escape this hellish broadband connection has crossed my mind several times…just wish I had the cash!

I realise that the OP is specifically refering to the Crace exchange, but is there anyway the North Lyneham situation could be included too?

3G/wireless is a terrible substitute for proper wired ADSL/ADSL2, and suffers slowdowns just as much, and probably more during ‘peak’ periods of use. It’s also hideously expensive for what you get. There are still numerous blackspots all around ACT – I know from experience a certain large carrier still even has trouble with “far out” suburbs like BRADDON and TURNER.

It _is_ ridiculous that Gunghalin-ites(?) can’t even get basic slow ADSL in a lot of areas – I lived in a 40 year old house, with 40 year old copper and was able to get consistent 10MB speeds over ADSL2.

And if someone can point me to the ‘crazy cheap deals’ Internode are offering, please do – I’ll sign up for one in a second.

RE #12 – Growling Ferret: If you’re able to get it, iinet ADSL2 is fantastic, and not too expensive. I’ve been with them for >3 years and have only experienced maybe 5 outages the entire time. Network speed is always consistent in my experience.

Good luck to all of you!

Being fed up with Telstra, I’m looking elsewhere for my service provider.

Is naked ADSL through IInet available in Gungahlin? Anyone with any user experiences of the product?

NextG is a cop out and an expensive poor performance alternative to proper ADSL/2 broadband. Like all other wireless internet, it suffers from delays and high ping rates.

Gungahlin internet is pretty abysmal. I recently moved from a rental in Ngunnawal where I was unable to get ADSL, but my next door neighbour whose copper line was probably less than 10 metres away could get it. Its frustrating. Luckily I bought a house in Ngunnawal where Telstra were able to find an alternative copper path and I now have 512k with TPG. Its like a dream, I can still hardly believe I have ADSL after 3 years of having to put up with Dial-up. Wireless by Transact is out of the question, just take a look at their prices plus the added hurdle of trying to get an antenna put on the roof of a rental. Coverage for 3G based internet was so bad that it produced dial-up speeds anyway.

How does KRudd expect to roll out Optic fibre to all homes in Australia when they can’t even get copper done properly? He is dreaming.

peterh said :

The levels of service experienced by the op are through internode. Internode haven’t been here for too long. They are trying to gain market share with crazy deals, targeting the isp’s that operate here in a bid to not have to work very hard to win. It is an issue that the crazy deal is all well and good, but the actual service delivery sucks.

Internode have been here for years – I’ve been using them in the ACT for five years now, and they weren’t new then. And what you’ve described about ‘crazy deals’ is completely the opposite of my (and my friends’) experience with Internode – they charge a little more than the ‘discount’ ISPs, but for my money the excellent service they provide is well worth it (and no, I am not associated with them in any way other than being a satisfied customer).

peterh said :

Telstra have now got access for gungahlin residents via nextg, as does optus / vodafone with the 3 network. the speeds are better than dial up, and if the device you are using is a laptop, the connection goes where you go.

Which is fine if you don’t use the internet very much. Any sort of reasonably heavy usage and you’re looking at big dollars.

peterh said :

I thought internode were using the optus wholesale ADSL as their deliverable, not Telstra. Internode live and breathe rural, it is one of their redeeming qualities. The problem here is that the crace exchange is talking back to the old copper network, so the connection is degrading before it gets to crace. Once the exchanges are upgraded – however long that takes, Gungahlin will have great coverage.

Internode might use Optus/Agile/Whoever when the option exists to use their DSLAMs – with the CMUXs – you can’t.. The only DSLAMs in the CMUXs belong to Telstra.. no one else

Furthermore, old Copper network? Are you sure? How is it different to any other exchange in the area? Melba, Scullin, so on and so forth *don’t* have the same issues. From what I have read, the problems exist with the (fibre?) connection between the CMUX and Crace.. I would be amazed if the only thing connecting Crace to the wider world is some copper wires.

ADSL2 *does* exist in some of these CMUXs too.. but again, unless your ISP is willing to use Telstra DSLAMs for its’ ADSL2 services, you’re stuck with Telstra should you use this option.

While on the subject of Gungahlin and Broadband – what became of the fibre laid down in the early to mid 90s.. the stuff that was to make Gungahlin the most technologically advanced area in Australia…

And more than happy to help if needed Russ..

peterh said :

The levels of service experienced by the op are through internode. Internode haven’t been here for too long. They are trying to gain market share with crazy deals, targeting the isp’s that operate here in a bid to not have to work very hard to win. It is an issue that the crazy deal is all well and good, but the actual service delivery sucks.

I thought internode were using the optus wholesale ADSL as their deliverable, not Telstra. Internode live and breathe rural, it is one of their redeeming qualities. The problem here is that the crace exchange is talking back to the old copper network, so the connection is degrading before it gets to crace. Once the exchanges are upgraded – however long that takes, Gungahlin will have great coverage.

Most of my friends in Gungahlin have jumped onto 3 or NextG – they get great coverage and are mobile.

Internode use their own DSLAMs where possible, otherwise they defer to Telstra wholesale for regular ADSL/ADSL2+ (at 150% of the cost compared to connections to their own equipment, thus are the realities of Telstra’s market position), and Optus for naked ADSL2+. If there’s a problem with Internode’s service quality it’s usually because the Telstra fixed line is faulty, or there’s a bottleneck in Telstra’s backhaul (if you’re on a RIM or sub-exchange for example). Their own network is one of the best in the country.

I’m interested to know what “crazy deals” Internode are involved in. They make inroads wherever they’re available by way of reputation and service quality; they don’t need to engage in extreme discounting (indeed they charge more than a lot of ISPs) and contract lock-in.

We’ve been in Gungahlin for 17 years. We moved out here in September of 1992. We filled in surveys, attended meetings, and were constantly told about Gungahlin being built as a high tech community. Fibre optic cables were going to be laid, the community was going to be internet ready, and so on.

We signed on with Transact for STD when they first came out here in the late 1990s or early 2000’s. We were told that the more people who signed on for that would increase the opportunity of getting more services from them out here. After a few years with them, and nothing happening, we gave up waiting and moved on to other people.

It hasn’t worked out to be the high tech community we were promised. We were able to access broadband (not with Telstra, thankfully) a few years ago, but friends who live close to the town centre are stuck on dial up. What a ridiculous situation to find ourselves in. Dial up in the capital city when even rurual areas of Australia can access broadband. Broadband that is as slow as dial up at night, or slower. Last night I couldn’t get onto a news website, it was so slow.

I’ll be checking out your website very soon. Good luck with it. And thank you.

The levels of service experienced by the op are through internode. Internode haven’t been here for too long. They are trying to gain market share with crazy deals, targeting the isp’s that operate here in a bid to not have to work very hard to win. It is an issue that the crazy deal is all well and good, but the actual service delivery sucks.

I thought internode were using the optus wholesale ADSL as their deliverable, not Telstra. Internode live and breathe rural, it is one of their redeeming qualities. The problem here is that the crace exchange is talking back to the old copper network, so the connection is degrading before it gets to crace. Once the exchanges are upgraded – however long that takes, Gungahlin will have great coverage.

Most of my friends in Gungahlin have jumped onto 3 or NextG – they get great coverage and are mobile.

Not sure it’s reasonable for those of you living in remote communities to expect the same standard of services as those living in rural centres like Canberra.

This is the gamble of living in new suburbs (or town centers) where infrastructure is not fully established. Tuggerangong & Belconnen aren’t looking so bad now…

Telstra have now got access for gungahlin residents via nextg, as does optus / vodafone with the 3 network. the speeds are better than dial up, and if the device you are using is a laptop, the connection goes where you go.

Wait, a decade is a bit of an exaggeration… the last half a decade, I mean.

eg.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/531532.html

The only broadband available in most/all of North Lyneham is Transact cable and wireless, if I’m not mistaken. Big ol’ ADSL deadspot right there, that Telstra have shrugged and said nothing they can do for over a decade now.