How many ACT public servants are there?

Looking at the Isle of Man (pop 75k)- only cos I know it , there are 8k “public servants” – 25% education, 25% health, 10% welfare, 10% infrastructure, 10% exec govt and statutory boards. By this accounting, it seems the ACT is actually doing pretty well.

You would imagine that you’d need a minimum load of employees to perform basic services to a population of any size, so any ratio is meaningless?

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/treasury/budget/2011/pinkbookfinal.pdf

Interesting that the Isle of Man Government defines anyone who undertakes duties which are wholly or mainly administrative, professional, technical or clerical in nature as a “Civil Servant” and they hold office at the pleasure of the Crown as represented by the Government of the day and are responsible for performing such duties and conforming to the policies of the departments in which they serve.

There are 2200 civil servants (or 30% of all roles) – maybe the ACT Government should publish according details?

chewy14 said :

The Antichrist said :

Henry82 said :

curlylocks said :

IMO Too many.

+1

yeh and I bet you guys would be the first to whinge if the buses weren’t running on time, or you had to spend 15 hours in casualty, or your kids were in classes of 50+ because there were insufficient teachers etc etc ……or maybe your tapwater runs brown, or the gas connection hasn’t worked properly in 5 years – I could go on forever !

I am sure 5% might seem high to those who have never had to put up with *zero* public services – try living with 1 or 2% of the population doing these jobs, and I bet your views would change pretty quickly .

I’m pretty sure your gas, water and electricity isn’t provided by public servants. As for the 5% figure, without comparisons It’s pretty much useless.

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It is in part, ACTEW and AGL area combined entity so there is still a government owned component.

About as many as are registered with the RiotAct

Henry82 said :

Yep. because we would never find someone in the APS wasting time, money and resources. Everything is run and managed 100% efficiently right?

Well of course it is!

It is a well known and accepted fact that if the sons and daughters of management and/or the sons and daughters of management’s friends are the people obtaining permanent ACT Govt. jobs in certain ACT Govt. organisations, then all is good and pure. Happens almost every Thursday.

While it may look like a remarkable coincidence when this kind of thing happens, it is probably simply because Canberra is such a small place to work in. And Canberra is such a remarkable place where so many remarkable coincidences happen. It’s almost magical.

Magical, magical Canberra!

The Antichrist said :

yeh and I bet you guys would be the first to whinge if the buses weren’t running on time, or you had to spend 15 hours in casualty, or your kids were in classes of 50+

Yep. because we would never find someone in the APS wasting time, money and resources. Everything is run and managed 100% efficiently right?

1 in 20 sounds fair enough. Keep in mind this includes teachers, nurses, road people (apart from contractors), TAMS, arboretum workers, bus drivers, the dozens of sculptors that churn out public art, all those ACT Connect people who collect your online complaints and put them straight in the bin … the list goes on.

The federal public service doesn’t have to worry about many of these (it’s found many other creative ways to waste money, however), so of course proportionally is going to be smaller. Similarly, in the states local governments provide a lot of the services the ACT public service does, so you can’t compare us to them either.

Having said all that, I’m sure there’s a lot of waste in the ACT govt — but it’s got little to do with staff numbers, just the competence of those staff at the higher levels. Is it really that hard to consult with stakeholders, talk to colleagues in other, ahem, ‘directorates’, plan for the future not for interest groups, and efficiently manage infrastructure contracts? APS public administration 101 crash course stuff but time and time again the ACT just can’t get it right

matt31221 said :

What about Commonwealth public servants? How many are of them are there?

#18

threepaws said :

Just to clarify, I am not a public servant, but I work a desk job. I am sick to death of people thinking that because I sit at a computer all day I am am not doing a ‘real job’.

Relax dude. Statistics show that 95% of Rioters are underworked, desk-bound public servants and university employees, so you are in good company.

What about Commonwealth public servants? How many are of them are there? More specifically how many public servants work at the Attourney Generals department, and how many of them are Honeyz? I’ll tell you how many – they are in a majority! Man it was hard to work there without breaching APS code for contractors, I just wanted to wear sunnies inside so I wouldn’t get busted having a perve!! I concluded that the section that does the hiring in that place was run by a Hugh Hefner type of bloke.

Sorry about the thread hyjack I just couldn’t help myself.

las said :

I dunno 5% looking after 95% does seem like a lot to me… I guess it depends on how many are desk jobs as opposed to teachers, nurses and other positions.

Not having a go at you directly Ias, but your comment reiterates that most people don’t think of desk jobs as ‘real jobs’. Without the desk jobs as support, people with ‘real jobs’ would have a bloody tough time doing their job.

Just to clarify, I am not a public servant, but I work a desk job. I am sick to death of people thinking that because I sit at a computer all day I am am not doing a ‘real job’.

I also acknowledge that jobs that should be valued highly (teachers – shaping our children, putting up with kids all day; police – serving our community, putting up with scum all day; nurses – need I say more? Who in their right mind would become a nurse? They can’t be doing it for the money, so they must love the job, and bless those people who do decide on nursing as a career) are not as highly valued in regard to their salaries, which irks me somewhat.

I have no doubt that there are many positions in the public service that probably don’t need to exist, but the private sector is much the same.

People always seem to feel the need to justify their venom toward the public service by saying ‘my taxes are paying you! Do more for me!’

Well, I’ve been to countries where you can’t call the police because their phones are disconnected, where you’ll die before the ambulance reaches you because the traffic is out of control and the roads so poorly managed, where the electricity and water are switched off overnight because they are privately owned, where the hospital will keep your baby until you can pay the bill – so perhaps we could get a little perspective about our first world problems and be thankful for what we do have?

I personally am thankful that the police will turn up if I call them, my water is always on tap, and I am unlikely to die in an emergency room just because I don’t have any cash.

Thanks public servants at your desks, I do appreciate what you do for me!

The Antichrist said :

Henry82 said :

curlylocks said :

IMO Too many.

+1

yeh and I bet you guys would be the first to whinge if the buses weren’t running on time, or you had to spend 15 hours in casualty, or your kids were in classes of 50+ because there were insufficient teachers etc etc ……or maybe your tapwater runs brown, or the gas connection hasn’t worked properly in 5 years – I could go on forever !

I am sure 5% might seem high to those who have never had to put up with *zero* public services – try living with 1 or 2% of the population doing these jobs, and I bet your views would change pretty quickly .

I’m pretty sure your gas, water and electricity isn’t provided by public servants. As for the 5% figure, without comparisons It’s pretty much useless.

The question could be asked, when you add in every public servant who works for a state gov’t not being the ACT, and then add in the number people employeed by local Council’s again not in the ACT, then divide that number by the number of people who live in Australia but not in the ACT (and multiply that number by 100) and if that number is on average less than 5.4 then make a complaint.

Remember that the ACT gov’t needs to act like both a local council and a state gov’t. If there was both an ACT gov’t and a local ACT “shire council” could you imagine the waste and buck passing which could happen then?

Henry82 said :

curlylocks said :

IMO Too many.

+1

yeh and I bet you guys would be the first to whinge if the buses weren’t running on time, or you had to spend 15 hours in casualty, or your kids were in classes of 50+ because there were insufficient teachers etc etc ……or maybe your tapwater runs brown, or the gas connection hasn’t worked properly in 5 years – I could go on forever !

I am sure 5% might seem high to those who have never had to put up with *zero* public services – try living with 1 or 2% of the population doing these jobs, and I bet your views would change pretty quickly .

Grail said :

More question marks don’t add anything to your question. If you wish to add a statement of incredulous rage, you could try something like, “I heard a rumour that the ACT employs 18,000 public servants – doesn’t this mean that one in twenty people in the ACT is riding on the backs of the real workers?”

Why is 5% of the population being involved in public services “super crazy”? What would you consider to be a sane proportion for public servants?

If you don’t consider health care workers or teachers to be “public servants”, the number comes down quite significantly: only 7000 “public servants” remaining on the list (excluding ACT Health, Calvary, Dept of Education, CIT from the list) about 2800 of which are involved in driving busses or keeping our city functional. So it boils down to about 4000 “public servants” in positions which would essentially be seat-polishing: lawyers, accountants, and administrators.

But that still leaves the questions open of “what do you consider to be ‘public servants'” and “how many do you feel we actually need?”

1. More question marks are always good, they add a sense of injustice at a cost of a few ones and zeroes.

2. 5% just seems really high, its only a gut feel and that’s why I wanted to find out the facts. I hadn’t considered all aspects of the ACT public service, but it still seems high.

3. Its a good question, what is a good public servant as opposed to a desk filler. Its hard to say, assuming the same ration at a federal level though, we’d be looking at over 1M for the country…. I just can’t see that being justifiable.

creative_canberran said :

las said :

nah, just curious and had a pub discussion about it recently.

I’d love to see how it compares with other countries or similar sized states around the world. Although obviously these comparisons are hard to make.

One interesting comparison is the Commonwealth Public Service.

0.734% of Australian population or about 160,000.

Obviously they serve different roles but something interesting to think about none the less.

Would that 160,000 include tens of thousands of Defence force personnel?

That’s 1/20th of the population involved in administering the population if its accurate.

Ahhh, but the majority of the 20,000ish are not in Administration roles, but mowing grass, teaching students and driving buses (as several people have said).

creative_canberran said :

One interesting comparison is the Commonwealth Public Service.

0.734% of Australian population or about 160,000.

Obviously they serve different roles but something interesting to think about none the less.

It is interesting, but mostly due, I suspect to the same point I made above (Commonwealth public servants don’t drive a lot of buses). There is a probably a certain “economies of scale” affect too…

More question marks don’t add anything to your question. If you wish to add a statement of incredulous rage, you could try something like, “I heard a rumour that the ACT employs 18,000 public servants – doesn’t this mean that one in twenty people in the ACT is riding on the backs of the real workers?”

Why is 5% of the population being involved in public services “super crazy”? What would you consider to be a sane proportion for public servants?

If you don’t consider health care workers or teachers to be “public servants”, the number comes down quite significantly: only 7000 “public servants” remaining on the list (excluding ACT Health, Calvary, Dept of Education, CIT from the list) about 2800 of which are involved in driving busses or keeping our city functional. So it boils down to about 4000 “public servants” in positions which would essentially be seat-polishing: lawyers, accountants, and administrators.

But that still leaves the questions open of “what do you consider to be ‘public servants'” and “how many do you feel we actually need?”

las said :

nah, just curious and had a pub discussion about it recently.

I’d love to see how it compares with other countries or similar sized states around the world. Although obviously these comparisons are hard to make.

One interesting comparison is the Commonwealth Public Service.

0.734% of Australian population or about 160,000.

Obviously they serve different roles but something interesting to think about none the less.

creative_canberran said :

EvanJames said :

It would be interesting to find out how many people work for the Qbn City Council, and compare the percentages. Although I guess some Qbn workers are employed by the State gov’t (health, police etc).

The Qbn City Council area takes in more than just the Qbn town, they’ve got a bit of the countryside also (although not as much of it as the residents of that countryside would like!).

Not a fair comparison. The ACT Government has responsibility for local council and state government levels. You would need to audit the Queenbeyan Council staff along with those State Government employees deployed in the shire.

. . . and even then you’d be missing a whole swag of people who develop the policies on a state level (health, environment, education, economic, etc etc) that affect the good people of Queanbeyan.

Are you feeling over serviced?

curlylocks said :

IMO Too many.

+1

nah, just curious and had a pub discussion about it recently.

I’d love to see how it compares with other countries or similar sized states around the world. Although obviously these comparisons are hard to make.

emd said :

That sounds super crazy to me

And what is your basis for this opinion?

I might be wrong, but this whole thread smells like OP is writing an essay for a university course and doesn’t want to do their own homework.

I dunno 5% looking after 95% does seem like a lot to me… I guess it depends on how many are desk jobs as opposed to teachers, nurses and other positions.

5% of the population “looking after” the remaining 95% doesn’t seem too many… Keep in mind that it’s not like they are all doing the same thing. The jobs which they do would range from “State” based work (the sort of thing a state gov’t would look after) to “Council” based work (the sort of thing a local council would look after).

Well, you could always try google. it is amazing what evidence can be found when looking:

http://www.cmd.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/191870/wfp0910.pdf

Try page 9, 12 and Attachment B.

EvanJames said :

It would be interesting to find out how many people work for the Qbn City Council, and compare the percentages. Although I guess some Qbn workers are employed by the State gov’t (health, police etc).

The Qbn City Council area takes in more than just the Qbn town, they’ve got a bit of the countryside also (although not as much of it as the residents of that countryside would like!).

Not a fair comparison. The ACT Government has responsibility for local council and state government levels. You would need to audit the Queenbeyan Council staff along with those State Government employees deployed in the shire.

Skidbladnir said :

More facts required.
Are nurses (and all non-subcontracted hospital staff), teachers, street cleaners, park and city ranger, bus driver, etc all counted in that figure?

Numbers without reference frames are meaningless.

I would have thought the question itself made the context self evidence. How many ACT public servants, which logically means those employed under the Public Service Act.

A contractor is not a public servant. By the same token, those figures do not seem to include the ACT Policing personnel contracted from the Federal Police who remain employed under Commonwealth legislation.

Pedant post: “you are” = “you’re” NOT “your”

It would be interesting to find out how many people work for the Qbn City Council, and compare the percentages. Although I guess some Qbn workers are employed by the State gov’t (health, police etc).

The Qbn City Council area takes in more than just the Qbn town, they’ve got a bit of the countryside also (although not as much of it as the residents of that countryside would like!).

More facts required.
Are nurses (and all non-subcontracted hospital staff), teachers, street cleaners, park and city ranger, bus driver, etc all counted in that figure?

Numbers without reference frames are meaningless.

That is not too many, Nurses alone would probably be about 4-5,000 in Canberra and they are short a few hundred. I’m assuming your looking at the whole public service and not just desk jobs. Teachers, Nurses other front line employees probably make up the vast majority of the number.

As at June 2010, it was actually 20,349 (or about 5.4% of population).

Only 68% though are employed full time. A further 22% are part time and 10% casual.

Just over 55% of all public service employment belongs to the former Departments of Health and Education. Justice and Community Services, Calvary Public Hospital, CIT and TAMS (including ACTION) are the other big ticket employers, accounting for 5-9% each.

http://www.cmd.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/202929/wfp0910v2.pdf

yes, especially if it is 18,000. Need to know facts before a complete rant I think.

There’s a report here from Nov 2010 that states 20,111. No idea about accuracy, though.

IMO Too many.