19 April 2016

ISIS - Why, oh Why?

24 September 2014 | John Hargreaves

I was going to post a comment on the lack of advocacy for aged people in nursing homes but I will do that later this week. I have a bit of checking to do.

In the meantime, I was enraged to see and read the fatwa from ISIS. It is the scariest threat we have had to Australian security in my 62 years in this country.

But it didn’t need to be that way. Who were mentioned in the fatwa? Christians, that’s who! And Muslims who supported the Coalition of the Coercive!

There was no threat to Hindus, no threat to Shinto practitioners, no threat to Buddhists, no threat to communists. Yeah? Well murderers don’t ask if you are a Buddhist before thrusting a knife into you if you are a random victim as described in the fatwa. We are now all Australians and targets. Thanks Mr Abbott.

The countries who have been mentioned; Australia, Canada, France, Britain are countries who blindly follow the US into wars that have nothing to do with them.

Have they been invited to the Middle East? Are they part of a UN originated peace keeping force? NO! Will someone tell me what threat we were facing BEFORE committing to the conflict?

I predicted that the SAS would follow the air strikes which preceded the humanitarian drops. I also predicted the sending of a battalion of soldiers to the Middle East. This was confirmed by a US general only last week. They “may” need “on-ground assistance”. I now predict an upsurge in security measures, further breaches of our civil rights and a body bag count we don’t want.

If we had only kept out of this in the beginning, if only we had decided to be a model for cultural integration, if only we had been regional in our geo-political approach, we would not be in the mess we are right now.

We followed Britain into World War I, and II; we followed the US into Vietnam; we followed the US into Iraq in two Gulf wars. Why, oh why do we follow anyone into a war which is nothing to do with us?

We really don’t need this. We really don’t! And our multicultural society doesn’t need the hatred and suspicion that it breeds.

The soldiers we send are heroes. The politicians who send them are responsible for their deaths.

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watto2311:21 am 30 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

AFP and Victorian police are currently executing search warrants on houses in Melbourne suspected of containing evidence of more terrorist activity (not connected with the attack on two police officers last week).

Which is exactly how this should be handled. The more the conservative of this country push the fear campaign message and push the hatred towards muslims, the more likely we will get a terrorist attack.
By all means take action on those doing or planning to do the wrong thing. Just be tolerant of other religions and don’t take an instance of something occurring to mean all muslims want or do that.

I’d like to think we are going into Iraq to help the locals that need help, remembering other muslims are just as much victims, because they also do not want the radical muslim state to form. Hopefully it is not to help ones political standing. I have my doubts, because otherwise the stupid bogan inspiring “Team Australia” slogan was definitely not needed. Whether you/we/me/anyone likes it or not, being Australian and a muslim is perfectly Australian.

dungfungus9:20 am 30 Sep 14

AFP and Victorian police are currently executing search warrants on houses in Melbourne suspected of containing evidence of more terrorist activity (not connected with the attack on two police officers last week).

justin heywood1:14 pm 29 Sep 14

Antagonist said :

justin heywood said :

Antagonist said :

I suggest you take your own advice. The operation never took place. It sat in the bottom of Hitler’s drawer for years and never got approval. And now the Swiss have successfully remained neutral for more than 200 years. Looks like a perfectly valid example to me. What else have you got

It sat in his bottom drawer ‘awaiting approval’? THAT’s what you’re going with?

But at least you learned something when you looked it up.

If you are going to quote me, have the courtesy to get it right. I never said ‘awaiting approval’. He flatly refused to approve it. Switzerland have remained neutral for the last 200 odd years, and none of your arm waving can change that fact 🙂

So Hitler ‘flatly refused’ to approve it? You know that is not true. If you have to twist the truth to make your argument, you haven’t really got an argument.

But anyway, anyone remotely interested in the topic can look it up for themselves.

dungfungus12:12 pm 29 Sep 14

HenryBG said :

dungfungus said :

Many countries have meddled with Iraq throughout history.
This link gives a brief chronology of events in the last 100 years. It looks like we have turned the full circle and we are starting all over again which we really have no choice in due the the adverse geopolitical repercussions if we do nothing.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-conflict-the-historical-background-/british-colonialism-and-repression-in-iraq.html

Sadly your link seems to concentrate on the recent period of British colonialism and neglects the centuries of colonisation and imperial rule by the Ottomans, Mamelukes & Georgians, Turkmen and Abbasids, going back to the Arab islamic invasion and genocides of the 7th century.

From the 7th century onwards, (with the exception of the Mamelukes) these genocidal regimes were far worse than the British and created a legacy of tribalism and left them in the grip of a viciously regressive religion.

The modernisation and civil society offered by the British did not take. Iraq is therefore a fiction that needs to be discarded in order to restablish stability through balkanising the area into smaller states with homogenous ethno-religious compositions.

I specifically said “the last 100 years”.
I appreciate you have a excellent knowledge of events previous to that but the last 100 years is more relevant to what the current problems are.

HenryBG10:16 am 29 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

Many countries have meddled with Iraq throughout history.
This link gives a brief chronology of events in the last 100 years. It looks like we have turned the full circle and we are starting all over again which we really have no choice in due the the adverse geopolitical repercussions if we do nothing.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-conflict-the-historical-background-/british-colonialism-and-repression-in-iraq.html

Sadly your link seems to concentrate on the recent period of British colonialism and neglects the centuries of colonisation and imperial rule by the Ottomans, Mamelukes & Georgians, Turkmen and Abbasids, going back to the Arab islamic invasion and genocides of the 7th century.

From the 7th century onwards, (with the exception of the Mamelukes) these genocidal regimes were far worse than the British and created a legacy of tribalism and left them in the grip of a viciously regressive religion.

The modernisation and civil society offered by the British did not take. Iraq is therefore a fiction that needs to be discarded in order to restablish stability through balkanising the area into smaller states with homogenous ethno-religious compositions.

Postalgeek9:52 am 29 Sep 14

Mysteryman said :

You can clearly see the point I made with that example: just because we can’t help everyone, does not mean we shouldn’t help anyone. You’re trying to say that purely because we don’t help everyone who needs it, we must have ulterior motives in this instance.

I don’t think we do. I think the motive are open and obvious and as I suggested – “because it was requested of us by the Iraqi government (due to the human rights issues at play), and because the IS pose a credible threat to other nations like ours”.

I said our reasons are strategic. That’s not saying such reasons are hidden or invalid. As you said yourself, IS poses a credible threat to other nations like ours. If it didn’t, I do not think we would be interceding.

dungfungus8:24 am 29 Sep 14

bigfeet said :

dungfungus said :

Many countries have meddled with Iraq throughout history.
This link gives a brief chronology of events in the last 100 years. It looks like we have turned the full circle and we are starting all over again which we really have no choice in due the the adverse geopolitical repercussions if we do nothing.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-conflict-the-historical-background-/british-colonialism-and-repression-in-iraq.html

I agree. The current problems are not entirely a result of ours, and our allies, previous actions but we ‘(the coalition of the willing’) certainly bear a large part of the responsibility. As such it behoves us to try to do what we can to fix it. The Iraqis have invited (begged) us to do something and we should, be that airstrikes, training, logistics, or even ground military operations. Even the Assad government has not raised a single objection to US and Arab air and missile strikes in Syria.

To put it in a very basic way, it is like me coming around to your house and deciding I should juggle half a dozen eggs and two glasses of red wine in the centre of your lounge room. No matter how much you try to convince me it is a bad idea I go ahead with it anyway. When the expected and warned against consequences occur it really should be my responsibility to clean up the mess. It would be wrong for me to just walk away and leved the mess, and just agree that it was an ill conceived idea in the first place.

There are several other counties in the Middle East that have had a similar history – Afghanistan springs to mind and their problems are by no means resolved.
My late great uncle fought in WW1 (the Great War as it was known then) and after being wounded in France and recovering he was posted to the Middle East. He travelled a lot while there and kept detailed diaries. He often remarked about the hospitality and warmness of individuals he met but at the same time he came to the conclusion that there would never be peace in that region because of the tribal and religious differences. That was almost 100 years ago. I think he was correct.
Regarding juggling wine and eggs in my lounge room, similar stunts in the past which ruined my carpet forced me to put in tiles so you are welcome to try your speciality (bring your own wine, glasses and eggs) and the mess will be cleaned up (with no trace left) off the tiled floor until the next time.
Maybe the Middle East needs “a tiled floor” solution. A neutron bomb perhaps?

Antagonist7:18 pm 28 Sep 14

justin heywood said :

Antagonist said :

I suggest you take your own advice. The operation never took place. It sat in the bottom of Hitler’s drawer for years and never got approval. And now the Swiss have successfully remained neutral for more than 200 years. Looks like a perfectly valid example to me. What else have you got

It sat in his bottom drawer ‘awaiting approval’? THAT’s what you’re going with?

But at least you learned something when you looked it up.

If you are going to quote me, have the courtesy to get it right. I never said ‘awaiting approval’. He flatly refused to approve it. Switzerland have remained neutral for the last 200 odd years, and none of your arm waving can change that fact 🙂

bigfeet6:21 pm 28 Sep 14

dungfungus said :

Many countries have meddled with Iraq throughout history.
This link gives a brief chronology of events in the last 100 years. It looks like we have turned the full circle and we are starting all over again which we really have no choice in due the the adverse geopolitical repercussions if we do nothing.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-conflict-the-historical-background-/british-colonialism-and-repression-in-iraq.html

I agree. The current problems are not entirely a result of ours, and our allies, previous actions but we ‘(the coalition of the willing’) certainly bear a large part of the responsibility. As such it behoves us to try to do what we can to fix it. The Iraqis have invited (begged) us to do something and we should, be that airstrikes, training, logistics, or even ground military operations. Even the Assad government has not raised a single objection to US and Arab air and missile strikes in Syria.

To put it in a very basic way, it is like me coming around to your house and deciding I should juggle half a dozen eggs and two glasses of red wine in the centre of your lounge room. No matter how much you try to convince me it is a bad idea I go ahead with it anyway. When the expected and warned against consequences occur it really should be my responsibility to clean up the mess. It would be wrong for me to just walk away and leved the mess, and just agree that it was an ill conceived idea in the first place.

dungfungus5:31 pm 28 Sep 14

Mysteryman said :

We followed Britain into World War I, and II; we followed the US into Vietnam; we followed the US into Iraq in two Gulf wars. Why, oh why do we follow anyone into a war which is nothing to do with us?

We really don’t need this. We really don’t! And our multicultural society doesn’t need the hatred and suspicion that it breeds.

Firstly, we were asked to assist by the Iraqi government. It has something to do with us because our help has been requested.

Secondly, what the hell does being a “multicultural society” have to do with this? Nothing.

Large sections of that country are being slaughtered and you’re here whining about our commitment to try and stop it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is that human rights are only important when it suits you, when it’s easy, or when there are votes to be had. Sad.

If we had only kept out of this in the beginning, if only we had decided to be a model for cultural integration, if only we had been regional in our geo-political approach, we would not be in the mess we are right now.

Oh of course… because clearly Iraq was a paragon of equality and fair treatment for all before us meddling Aussie’s got involved.

Many countries have meddled with Iraq throughout history.
This link gives a brief chronology of events in the last 100 years. It looks like we have turned the full circle and we are starting all over again which we really have no choice in due the the adverse geopolitical repercussions if we do nothing.
https://www.globalpolicy.org/iraq-conflict-the-historical-background-/british-colonialism-and-repression-in-iraq.html

HenryBG5:03 pm 26 Sep 14

Antagonist said :

Make no mistake about it – we are heading into Gulf War III. Third time lucky? I doubt it. …. would it still be coming our way if we had not just blindly followed the US-coalition into 60+ years of different conflicts? Would Australia be specifically named in the ISIS fatwa? …

Many people here are conflating two issues. Let’s just extract each issue all by itself and examine it:

1/ ISIS are brutally mass-murdering large numbers of people and terrorising everybody else, on the basis of some completely unaccaptable fundamentalist religious beliefs lifted literally from a religious document.
Here, we have a choice: do we stand by and do nothing? No. It is our clear ethical duty to use our resources to terminate this group.
I repeat: ethically, our decision is made for us. We must fight ISIS.

2/ Where did ISIS come from? Totally irrelevant to our choice in 1/, but still very important.
Firstly, here is a good read:
http://20committee.com/2014/09/25/what-if-everything-you-know-about-terrorism-is-wrong/
Make no mistake about it – our involvement in Assad’s insurgency problems was murky and predictably going to entrain dodgy consequences for the region.
Going back further, of course, was our destruction of the apparatus of state in Iraq, an apparatus that was utterly inimical to the likes of ISIS, which could never have taken off in its presence.
But, we destroyed Iraq, and this created the conditions for ISIS’s creation.
So, was the Invasion of Iraq legal? No. Utterly illegal and unsanctioned by the UN, with absolutely no justification in International law. The justifications given (fabricated nonsense about Uranium from Niger, WMDs we knew didn’t exist, and rockets that were no threat to us) were clearly intended to create a “self-defence” justification, and just as clearly complete fabrications.
What to do about this? It is obvious that Bush, Blair, Howard, and the underlings and advisors that participated in the fabrications, lies and illegalities should be prosecuted. These people are personally responsible for a far, far greater scale of barbarism, death and destruction than ISIS is. They are also responsible for ISIS. They should be in gaol. If we aspire to be a civilised nation under the rule of law, then why is this not happening?

Isolationism is not the answer. It was wrong when it was used as an excuse for the USA joining the war against the Nazis 21/2 years late, and it’s even more wrong now.

Past history is interesting, and we should learn from it.

If there is one thing we have learnt, it is that where there is friction and conflict, national borders have to be synonymised with ethnic/religious groupings.
When Yugoslavia exploded, this was the answer. Ditto with Indian independence. And this is why multiculturalism has been declared a policy failure in Europe.
Iraq doesn’t exist, it is a fiction and the first step to cooling things down in the region is to re-draw maps along lines that make sense: A Kurdish state, a Sunniiraq, and a Shiiteiraq. The biggest problems that have caused the governance vacuum that ISIS have stepped into would be solved that easily.

Mysteryman3:13 pm 26 Sep 14

Postalgeek said :

Mysteryman said :

Postalgeek said :

Mysteryman said :

Large sections of that country are being slaughtered and you’re here whining about our commitment to try and stop it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is that human rights are only important when it suits you, when it’s easy, or when there are votes to be had. Sad.

Which is why any justification for intervening in Iraq based on human rights is demonstrably spurious, otherwise we would be interceding in Nigeria, Sudan, Burma, North Korea and so on and so on.

Military action is being taken for strategic reasons.

I suppose you don’t give to any charities because you can’t afford to give to all them, right?

I don’t recall the Nigerian’s requesting assistance. I certainly don’t recall any of our PMs mentioning a call from Kim Jon Il, or Un, to send some troops over to sort out their human rights issues.

Your conspiracy theories aside, we were involved to trying to help the Iraqis establish their own democracy some time back, and they’ve requested our help in removing a threat to that same government and its people. We aren’t going in there for lols, and certainly not because we think we know better than them. We’re assisting because it was requested of us by the Iraqi government, and because the IS pose a credible threat to other nations like ours.

Yeah, I wouldn’t compare this to donating to charities…

You can clearly see the point I made with that example: just because we can’t help everyone, does not mean we shouldn’t help anyone. You’re trying to say that purely because we don’t help everyone who needs it, we must have ulterior motives in this instance.

I don’t think we do. I think the motive are open and obvious and as I suggested – “because it was requested of us by the Iraqi government (due to the human rights issues at play), and because the IS pose a credible threat to other nations like ours”.

Postalgeek12:23 pm 26 Sep 14

Mysteryman said :

Postalgeek said :

Mysteryman said :

Large sections of that country are being slaughtered and you’re here whining about our commitment to try and stop it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is that human rights are only important when it suits you, when it’s easy, or when there are votes to be had. Sad.

Which is why any justification for intervening in Iraq based on human rights is demonstrably spurious, otherwise we would be interceding in Nigeria, Sudan, Burma, North Korea and so on and so on.

Military action is being taken for strategic reasons.

I suppose you don’t give to any charities because you can’t afford to give to all them, right?

I don’t recall the Nigerian’s requesting assistance. I certainly don’t recall any of our PMs mentioning a call from Kim Jon Il, or Un, to send some troops over to sort out their human rights issues.

Your conspiracy theories aside, we were involved to trying to help the Iraqis establish their own democracy some time back, and they’ve requested our help in removing a threat to that same government and its people. We aren’t going in there for lols, and certainly not because we think we know better than them. We’re assisting because it was requested of us by the Iraqi government, and because the IS pose a credible threat to other nations like ours.

Yeah, I wouldn’t compare this to donating to charities. Anyway, simply supporting your statement, that it sounds like human rights are only important when it suits you, when it’s easy, or when there are votes to be had. We can now tack on if the regime invites us in.

As for conspiracies, suggesting that military action is being taken for strategic reasons isn’t exactly radical. ISIS has been declared a threat to US and Australia, so there’s a defensive strategic reason right there, if you agree with the premise.

Intercession based on human rights is inconsistent. So a reasonable person would assume there are other factors at play.

Antagonist10:55 am 26 Sep 14

Mysteryman said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

Mysteryman said :

We followed Britain into World War I, and II; we followed the US into Vietnam; we followed the US into Iraq in two Gulf wars. Why, oh why do we follow anyone into a war which is nothing to do with us?

We really don’t need this. We really don’t! And our multicultural society doesn’t need the hatred and suspicion that it breeds.

Firstly, we were asked to assist by the Iraqi government. It has something to do with us because our help has been requested.

Secondly, what the hell does being a “multicultural society” have to do with this? Nothing.

Large sections of that country are being slaughtered and you’re here whining about our commitment to try and stop it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is that human rights are only important when it suits you, when it’s easy, or when there are votes to be had. Sad.

If we had only kept out of this in the beginning, if only we had decided to be a model for cultural integration, if only we had been regional in our geo-political approach, we would not be in the mess we are right now.

Oh of course… because clearly Iraq was a paragon of equality and fair treatment for all before us meddling Aussie’s got involved.

And of course Iraq asked for intervention in the beginning! Yeah right! Just like South Vietnam asked the US for intervention! Around the same time as the CIA murdered the South Vietnamese President in the back of a van! Invitations , my foot! Invitations organised to justify a presence and future military action!

Wake up, John. This isn’t the 60s and we’re not talking about Vietnam. The circumstances aren’t even close to being the same.

That’s right, but not for the reasoning you suggest. We only went into Vietnam once. Make no mistake about it – we are heading into Gulf War III. Third time lucky? I doubt it. Modern warfare has changed and it is now coming to us instead. And that goes to the point at the centre of this debate: would it still be coming our way if we had not just blindly followed the US-coalition into 60+ years of different conflicts? Would Australia be specifically named in the ISIS fatwa? So I say again – if we needed to make a contribution we could have done it under the banner of the UN.

Which reminds me. How are they going finding those weapons of mass destruction from Gulf War II that the US were telling us posed such a threat to the international community ??? They had a better chance of finding Harold Holt.

dungfungus9:48 am 26 Sep 14

Mysteryman said :

John Hargreaves Ex MLA said :

Mysteryman said :

We followed Britain into World War I, and II; we followed the US into Vietnam; we followed the US into Iraq in two Gulf wars. Why, oh why do we follow anyone into a war which is nothing to do with us?

We really don’t need this. We really don’t! And our multicultural society doesn’t need the hatred and suspicion that it breeds.

Firstly, we were asked to assist by the Iraqi government. It has something to do with us because our help has been requested.

Secondly, what the hell does being a “multicultural society” have to do with this? Nothing.

Large sections of that country are being slaughtered and you’re here whining about our commitment to try and stop it? It sounds like what you’re really saying is that human rights are only important when it suits you, when it’s easy, or when there are votes to be had. Sad.

If we had only kept out of this in the beginning, if only we had decided to be a model for cultural integration, if only we had been regional in our geo-political approach, we would not be in the mess we are right now.

Oh of course… because clearly Iraq was a paragon of equality and fair treatment for all before us meddling Aussie’s got involved.

And of course Iraq asked for intervention in the beginning! Yeah right! Just like South Vietnam asked the US for intervention! Around the same time as the CIA murdered the South Vietnamese President in the back of a van! Invitations , my foot! Invitations organised to justify a presence and future military action!

Wake up, John. This isn’t the 60s and we’re not talking about Vietnam. The circumstances aren’t even close to being the same.

John and his fellow travellers are still in denial about what is happening. They have probably never read about the Crusades and have never been to Southern Spain to see the remnants of how the world was when Islam ruled for all.
I would prefer a state of “live and let live” but it has become “kill or be killed”. Even Benjamin Netanyahu from Israel says “you can’t negotiate a peace with people who don’t want peace”.

John Hargreaves Ex MLA11:24 am 24 Sep 14

pierce said :

neanderthalsis said :

So we should step back and watch the genocide from a safe distance? The hand wringing bleeding hearts are critical of us going to war, but would be equally critical if we did nothing.

I suspect that you’ll find that the “hand wringing bleeding hearts” (because clearly they all think and speak as one) are probably wondering why governments haven’t rushed in to deal with dozens of other incidents of genocide in recent decades. Rwanda, Cambodia and Sudan spring to mind. Boko Haram if you want a more recent one. If everything else can be treated as a regional issue, why not this?

It’s funny how everyone becomes a humanitarian when oil is involved.

Pierce How right you are? My issue is not that ISIL are not a bunch of psychopaths who are bent on a jihad. I agree that their behaviour is unacceptable.

Your point about not being involved in other genocidal issues is a good one. Boko Haram are just as fanatical. kidnapping 200 schoolgirls and threatening to rape them is heinous in anyone’s language. But did we send in warplanes and SAS to “teach” those opposing them?

I did see the reports of the “terrorist attack” on two police officers in Melbourne yesterday. But where is the proof that it was a terrorist attack? Do you believe that the shooting of that guy at Bondi cos he had a knife and looked middle Eastern was thwarting a terrorist attack? And an 800 strong force to capture one 18 year old? A bit OTT, methinks.

If the current Government had not taken a leaf out of the “embarrassed” (not contrite) John Howard, we would not have this stuff in our beloved country. Where is the threat to NZ? they have the good sense to stay away.

We are not the world’s policemen on human rights abuses, we are not even the deputy sheriff with a mandate to protect Christianity.

It may be too late now to prevent a 911 here but I know who I will be blaming for it!

And reiterating a previous stand. No… I don’t support sending our troops, airmen and sailors half way across the world to fight someone else’s war. What part of the Vietnam War don’t you get?

Incidentally, the Vietnamese don’t talk about the Vietnam War, they talk, about the American War.

And a Viet Cong ex soldier I spoke to told me, when I apologised for our presence, that the Vietnamese didn’t know we were there. We were too small a force for them to notice. So the 521 died for what? Not again in my name, it won’t.

And finally, before people accuse me of being too political, I am a life member of the ALP, a 15 year Member of the Legislative Assembly for the Labor Party and a 5 year Minister in said Government. I don’t want to be non partisan. But my right to express my views is sacrosanct. Those who don’t like it can suck it up or stay away from reading my posts.

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