10 October 2023

Less than a week to go, Australians can give voice to hope

| Ian Bushnell
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Yes campaigners and signs

Cross-party support for the Voice is strong in Canberra. Photo: Travis Radford.

This Saturday’s Voice referendum would have probably passed without much controversy in an earlier, less febrile political environment.

But with an Opposition Leader desperate to chalk up a win against the Albanese Government and happy to let the right-wing misinformation machine do his dirty work on social media, what was ample majority support has been turned around, say the polls, during a campaign marred by lies, lies and more lies.

Apart from a few conservative jurists and those who have taken a stand on the principle that a body preferencing one sector of the community should not be enshrined in the Constitution, the public discourse has degenerated into a sewer of racist tropes about Australia’s First Nations, and distortions and misleading arguments designed to sow doubt, confusion and outright fear.

No matter how many times the No contentions are countered or the lies exposed, the zombie arguments keep being rolled out.

The general premise that if you don’t know vote No is a depressing reflection of an ailing political culture that threatens to stymie action on a range of significant issues confronting the nation, not just the Voice.

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The likes of former High Court Chief Justice Robert French have effectively countered the legal arguments, reiterating the finding of the Solicitor-General that the Voice would enhance our democracy and that parliament or the executive would not be legally bound by the Voice’s advice.

The “ultimate form and functions [of the advisory body] will be in the hands of the elected parliament”, he says.

He also rejects the notion that a Yes result would introduce a race-based division in the Constitution.

“It would not matter whether Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples were one race or dozens of different races … The unifying characteristic which underpins the Voice is their history as our First Peoples,” he says.

Yet the claims continue about dividing the nation and the legal quagmire that will follow.

Senator Jacinta Price and supporters

Big winner: Senator Jacinta Price on No campaign trail. Photo: Facebook.

Ironically, the campaign has also elevated an Indigenous Senator to national prominence as a No advocate.

It’s not clear who is using who, but Jacinta Price is now a darling of the right-wing media for her so-called truth-telling, willingness to move on and embrace of modernity.

Senator Price can say a lot that Peter Dutton can’t and her pitch is not to First Nations but the white electorate who will take comfort from the free pass she gives them when she insists colonialism brought nothing but good and has had no lasting impact on Indigenous people.

Hers is basically an assimilationist message that ignores the now well-documented frontier violence, dispossession, family destruction and institutional racism that First Nations, not just in Australia but around the world, are still dealing with.

Intergenerational trauma is real.

How would you feel if your home had been invaded, taken over and your parents killed, and then you are asked by the perpetrators to just get over it and move on because we’re all Aussies now?

Senator Price has also thrown into the mix the alleged waste of billions spent on programs for Indigenous people without evidence. This again feeds into white anxiety that the Voice will only exacerbate such waste on an undeserving people.

It’s an old argument that, as David Marr writes in his new book Killing for Country, echoes down through the decades from colonial times.

Never mind that the Voice intends to minimise waste and help target programs to what communities want and need.

Is Senator Price forgetting who has been in charge most of the past decade?

Throughout the referendum campaign, No advocates have not suggested any positive alternative to what the Voice offers.

This is a proposal to make a change for the better and make a practical and tangible impact on Indigenous wellbeing, something that has been lost in the unsightly politics.

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If the polls are right on Saturday and Australians turn their backs on the proposal, where does that leave the country, and where does that leave First Nations?

A country more divided than ever and still unwilling to face the truth, make reparations and heal.

For First Nations, some will be resigned to yet another kick in the teeth, some will be heartbroken that they are still not made welcome in their own country and others may be embittered.

A Yes vote leads to open country. No takes us down into dark ravines and dead ends.

A No victory will also only confirm the effectiveness of the American-style, automated misinformation campaigns that have proliferated and become a template for defeating any number of measures that government needs to take, whether it be climate change, housing, tax or the environment, where entrenched interests have no concept of the public good or common wealth.

Such nihilism should not be rewarded.

But for all the polling forecasting defeat, there remains hope that the blizzard of negativity has been overblown and amplified and that come Saturday, voters will look at the ballot paper and opt for hope over fear and not miss this opportunity to really move on.

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Lefty Boomer8:55 am 12 Oct 23

Looking at some of the comments here, especially those calling the Voice constitutionally enshrined racism, shouldn’t worry. Racism is well and truely enshrined in our culture and would be superfluous to put in the constitution.
Racism is an emotional reaction that stems from ignorance and it’s something I find hard to recognise in myself let alone blame others for. Many people do not recognise that the injustices of the past linger in their consequences for those defendants living today and can’t see any reason to apologise of feel complicit in those injustices.
This is a common reply that I’ve encountered from No voters and the causes should probably have been made common knowledge before the referendum was proposed.

Michael Mulvaney6:37 am 12 Oct 23

Thanks Ian , well argued opinion. Thanks also to the nay sayers for putting your views. I notice that none of you reference the two key documents – the actual words we are being asked to vote on and the Uluru Statement of the Heart. This seems to back up a key point of Ian’s that the no campaign is being fuelled by mis-information. We are actually being asked if we want to recognise the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders as the first peoples of Australia and to support them having a say to parliament over the laws and policies that affect their communities. Recognition and a Voice are the two planks of the Uluru Statement of the Heart, that all Australians can support through agreeing to change the constitution. First Nations peoples are inviting us to walk with them on this. The Statement of the Heart is the response from requests from all sides of Australian politics for First Nations people to set the path towards uniting Australia through reconciliation. It is a gracious act of trust in our goodwill. If you want to break the hearts of First Nations People, give the middle figure to reconciliation and perpetuate the current broken way of involving First Nations People in decisions, by all means vote no. If you want a better united Australia – vote YES.

Nick Stevens7:33 am 12 Oct 23

It is in fact…bottom line, delegate power to the parliament to legislate on behalf of one segment of the Australian people, and as I have previously stated, an unknown legislation.
I prefer substance over emotive waffle.

The problem with getting all morally superior and calling everything you disagree with as “misinformation” (which implies you have the distasteful personality flaw of believing you’re always right about everything), is that you miss the point. Who’s “giving the middle finger to reconciliation”? Go on, find a quote from mainstream “no” that says “we’re against reconciliation”. If you can possibly get past your rabid bias, you’d see the main concerns are around constitutionally entrenched special ancestral rights for some and not others (bizzarely being marketed as “unity”); and lack of draft legislation to view. If only you metropolitan elites were more in touch with how the “lower classes”, “reprehensibles”, or whatever you call people not in your elite bubble see things, you’d know that nobody is against the principle of Aboriginal people improving their lot, but how you’ve gone about this has huge problems. Back to the drawing board, and next time, get off the moral high-horse and the elite bubble politics, and grapple with how to bring a majority along with you.

Michael Mulvaney7:00 am 13 Oct 23

Thanks Rusty, I have never been graded as elite before – pity in this case it is just a meaningless slur. Reconciliation is a coming together of two parties. It requires listening to each other, and goodwill from both parties to understand, respect and recognise each others views, particularly those of the wronged party. The Uluru Statement from the Heart is an offer from First Nations peoples to walk together, it contains guidance and steps as to what they think is needed for practical reconcilliation. To say No to this offer is accurately described as raising the middle figure to reconciliation. By the way, stating the bleeding obvious is not getting on one’s high horse. To me recognising the original peoples, and their long and spiritual association with the land, is something to be embraced not feared. It does not seem a big ask to carry us as a Nation forward.

William Newby9:54 pm 11 Oct 23

Pushed by so many politicians and large corporates that I do not trust one bit, just look at the line up in this photo.
It’s a solid NO from me, I voted earlier today. #NO

The VOICE referendum is going down like a zero over Midway

My favourite thing to do with these diatribes is to flip the sense and see how true it is.

Like, paragraph 2 becomes

But with a Government Leader desperate to chalk up a win against the deplorables and happy to let the left-wing misinformation machine do his dirty work on social media, what was assumed majority support has been turned around, say the polls, during a campaign marred by lies, lies and more lies.

4;
No matter how many times the Yes contentions are countered or the lies exposed, the zombie arguments keep being rolled out.

25 is interesting;
For Second Nations, some will be resigned to yet another kick in the teeth, some will be heartbroken that they are still not made welcome in their own country and others may be embittered.

The pieces’ value is low, so yea I just find amusement in seeing how well it works the other way.
Better than taking it seriously.

Nick Stevens12:35 pm 10 Oct 23

The way I understand it is….give Parliament the power to legislate. Legislate what?
Why not place the framework of the legislation first, and that could be voted on?
This needless clumsy exercise will return to haunt Albo and the Labor party, rusted on labor voters as I, will look elsewhere at the next Federal election.
To those who want a voice to Parliament…get elected.

brucewantstobecool3:26 pm 10 Oct 23

You do realise the constitution simply says the Parliament has the power to make laws over many things, right? It even allows the Parliament to shape the Parliament! If those who voted to establish the Commonwealth and adopt the Constitution over 100 years ago could live with that arrangement, why can’t we?

brucewantstobecool – Simply put, people don’t trust politicians, especially when they are advocating for an idea as bad as this one and which will be nearly impossible to remove once it’s put in place. Writing a blank cheque for “just vote YES and we’ll decide what it is you actually voted for later” is not something that most people appear to be comfortable with.

Albo openly admitted that he was withholding details about how it would work till AFTER the vote… this does not inspire confidence in most sane people.

Hi Bob, if you haven’t read the referendum question yet, then here is what you are voting for: recognition of First Nations people in the Constitution and a Voice to Parliament which is an advisory body representing them in providing advice on Indigenous matters to Parliament and the Executive Government. That’s what we are voting on. If you personally don’t trust politicians then vote for someone else. You have your choice at the ballot box as we all do. If you have any evidence of a so-called “blank cheque” please provide it.

Astro,
strange to see you once again promoting misinformation that is not included in the “factual language” that you want to stick to so you can get closer to the truth.

If you haven’t read the referendum question then perhaps you should? Nowhere does it mention the words “advice” or “advisory” in the question, so perhaps you should stick to the facts? The voice can make “representations”.

Although it is heartening to also see you confirm below that your previous statements on the voice’s functions and effectiveness are pure speculation, not supported by the factual language in the specific referendum question. Well done on committing to do better and not interpreting the written words to suit your own potential biases.

Also good to see today, as I told you a couple of weeks ago, that the claims of 80% indigenous support for the voice were misleading and not substantiated by contemporary and rigorous polling. It’s not good to deliberately mislead through the use of old and flawed data.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/indigenous-support-for-voice-falls-but-keeps-majority-20231010-p5eb19.html

“If you have any evidence of a so-called “blank cheque” please provide it.” I’m beginning to think “spectrum” when I try to understand how you think. Anyhow, since you can’t see why people use the term “blank cheque” (it’s a metaphorical rather than literal use of the phrase), could you kindly link us to the draft legislation? No? Then that’s what people mean by “blank cheque”. Oh, yes: a blank cheque is where you give an old-fashioned promissory note to someone, and let them write what they want from you. It would be like giving someone your credit card and pin number. Most people wouldn’t do that, it would be too trusting. That’s the nub of the metaphor.

hi chewy14, according to constitutional lawyers the Voice making representations makes it an advisory body. Constitutional lawyers know more about the constitution than you do, notwithstanding that you are entitled to a contrary view although it is uncertain what you think the Voice is. It’s telling that you don’t want Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be allowed to make representations to Parliament and one can only imagine why you feel this way about our First Nations people. Nothing misleading about 80% support from the Indigenous population as this was a valid poll.
https://www.amnesty.org.au/sorting-fact-from-fiction-in-the-voice-to-parliament-referendum/
There is also useful information in this article now what misinformation and disinformation actually is.

Astro,
According to other constitutional lawyers, “representations” are different than “advice”.

Constitutional lawyers know more about the constitution than you do.

“Implications” can be seen by different people in different ways and sometimes show up a particular bias so it’s better to stick to facts, particularly in an environment where there has been a lot of misinformation.”

As someone else said here, we need to be careful of interpretations showing up a specific bias and instead, stick to the facts.

The words “advice” and “advisory” are nowhere to be found in the referendum question.

“It’s telling that you don’t want Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be allowed to make representations to Parliament”

Where have I written this Astro? For someone talking so much about not misleading, you do like making stuff up.

Absolutely nothing stopping Indigenuous Australians and the dozens of current advisory bodies in this space making representations right now. Exactly like all other Australians.

This issue is about a Constitutionally enshrined voice, perhaps you should actually read the referendum question?

You wouldn’t want to look like a massive hypocrite by going against your own statements right?

“Nothing misleading about 80% support from the Indigenous population as this was a valid poll.”

No, as previosuly explained, it was two polls actually. Both with significant sampling problems and completely out of date with their continued usage when all other polls showed a slumping in support by 20-25%.

Glad you agree though that we now have more relevant information showing that over 40% of Indigenuous Australians don’t support the proposal.

And glad to see you’ve started reading up on what misinformation and disinformation is. Might help you to stop engaging in it.

“It’s telling that you don’t want Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be allowed to make representations to Parliament and one can only imagine why you feel this way about our First Nations people. ”
You’ve entirely concocted this in your own imagination, albeit with the prompting of most “yes” campaigning. Although untrue, “yes” leap to the conclusion the nefarious problem is “racism” and general heartlessness. I guess it’s too hard to face the awful truth that you’ve botched the process. Nobody sensible on the “no” side is against advice and consultation by Aboriginal people on issues particularly to do with them. Hopefully, that would reduce the waste, mismanagement and ineffectiveness of current approaches. But a major problem is tying this to the constitution. Wup, wait, wait … before you harp on about heartlessness and racism again: nobody sensible is against a constitutional amendment *for recognition*, but not tied to establishment of a representative body. See, hard-core radical “yes” activists have tried to bundle what everyone wants with malware only they want. And that’s where it’s gone off the rails.

hi Chewy, you seem to be confused about whether you oppose or support the proposal; your most recent post suggests that you do want Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be represented in the Constitution despite apparently supporting a “No” vote. If you’re still undecided, and if you are open to the opinions of experts in Constitutional law, then an open letter of support from retired judges should be enlightening for you: the following signed the letter in support of the Voice and its legality, which I’m posting a ink to: the Hon Robert French (previously Australia’s most senior judge); the Hon Dave Harper (former Vic Supreme Court judge; the Hon Mary Gaudron Kim former judge of the High court of Aust; the Hon Carmel McClure AC KC, former President of the Supreme Court of WA; the Hon Stephen Charles AO KC former judge of the Supreme Court Vic; the Hon Paul Stein, AM KC former judge of Supreme Court NSW; Hon Anthony Whealy KC former judge NSW Supreme Court; Hon Rober Redlich AM KC former Commissioner IBAC and Judge Supreme Court VIC; Hon Margaret White AO former judge Supreme Court Qld.
Additional signatories are 71 Australian university teachers of constitutional law. All strongly support representation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in the Constitution and support a Voice to Parliament. Here is a link to the letter:
https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/The-Voice-Open-Letter-Authorised-WEB.pdf

So I guess, Chewy, you can read and consider their advice or you can run with Pauline Hansen and Lidia Thorpe. Your call.

Astro,
your latest post seems to strongly suggest you have serious comprehension problems with the points being made.

Also strange that you’ve linked a letter from a whopping 8 people who support the Voice in a personal capacity. Not sure what relevance you think it has for this debate but good for you if it helps you to be guided by other people’s opinions rather than being able to consider the actual evidence and come to a logical and evidence based position all by yourself.

I’ll just drop these here and perhaps you might learn something.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Authority

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Ad-Hominem-Guilt-by-Association

So I guess Astro, you can read and attempt to think for yourself or you can continue to make emotional and logic free arguments about the way you’ve decided to vote. Your call.

Hi Chewy, it’s a bit desperate to suggest that a letter signed by former high court judges and specialists in the field wouldn’t be considered as a logical way of informing oneself about constitutional matter. But hey, you can stick with the logic and expertise of Hansen and Thorpe if you want to. You’re free to decide.

Rusty you still haven’t explained what the blank cheque is. It’s fine to use a metaphor but it needs to link back in some way to the issue, which you haven’t done, so you’ve just got a “blank cheque” metaphor floating around in space. Where is the link to expenditure in the constitutional amendment? it isn’t there.

Astro,
So you’re unable to even comprehend the basic logical fallacies you’ve repeatedly attempted to use to bolster your weak argument. Even when they are explained slowly to you. Sad.

No wonder you’re struggling with the details on this proposed constitutional change though, it explains well why you are unable to counter the logical reasons people are voting No.

But hey, Kyle and Jackie O have said they’re backing the Voice as well, time for Astro to pop the Champagne corks, he’s in good company.

LOL.

Wow, Ian Bushnell pulling out all stops here on what he really thinks. That a majority of voters are dumb racist liars. If anyone on the “no” side was even half as intemperate and prejudiced, it’d be blasted as hate speech. But of course, the sanctimonious elites give themselves a free pass on that. Ian, you are so way off the mark, have so little understanding, and are so supercilious. No, Ian, you and your minority of “yes” voters are not superior people. In fact, you could have got this Voice passed if you’d gone about it the right way. But being so arrogant and conceited, you, Albo and the rest of the Guardian-reading class totally blew it. It’s on *you*.

Hi Rusty, i’ve re-read the article to see where the claim about “a majority of voters” was said and couldn’t find it anywhere. Do you think that a majority of voters are “dumb racist liars”? If so, why do you think that.

Astro,
“Apart from a few conservative jurists and those who have taken a stand on the principle that a body preferencing one sector of the community should not be enshrined in the Constitution, the public discourse has degenerated into a sewer of racist tropes about Australia’s First Nations, and distortions and misleading arguments designed to sow doubt, confusion and outright fear.”

Probably the part where he says other than a “few” people promoting a certain argument, the public discourse (ie. the majority) has degenerated into racist misinformation and lies.

Ironically your inability to understand the implications of the article and why people might reject it or be offended by it, exemplifies perfectly one the reasons why the “Yes” side support has reduced so significantly in recent months.

The yes side have been their own worst enemies in being able to articulate their case without degrading quickly to abuse and ad hominem arguments once challenged by people who disagree. It’s truly been enlightening to see such a lack of introspection on where exactly the failure lies on this issue.

The reason why the referendum will most likely fail, rests clearly with Peter Dutton’s decision not to adopt a bipartisan approach and support the Yes campaign. He chose to actively support the no vote and obliged his shadow cabinet to oppose the referendum. Referendums do not pass without bipartisan political support. The previous coalition government Indigenous Affairs Minister Ken Wyatt supports the yes vote as does Julian Leeser the former shadow Indigenous Australians Minister. No doubt to assuage his own conscience in the years to come, he will apologise for not supporting the Voice, as he apologised years later for boycotting Rudd’s apology to the Stolen Generations.

He is not required to support it, it’s a terrible idea and he’s right to oppose it.

If you look at the latest polls, the Labour party has failed to convince a majority of it’s own members that this racially divisive garbage is worth voting for.

The arguement that Peter Dutton supports therefore everyone else follows places a light burden on voters exercising their own minds. FWIW – I will be voting “yes” but a lot of the yes campaign and media coverage does not actually engage with the concerns of “no”, arguable the “soft yes” voters. This opinion piece is a good example.

I really don’t think some people know what “bipartisanship” is or should be.
It is not encumbent on any political party to accept any idea of this nature, it’s up to the proponents to make their case and negotiate an acceptable proposal.

It’s not a one way street and the government has been fully in control of the process the entire time. They own it and the outcome wholly.

Hi Chewy, that’s not what was said here. I’ll repeat the previous post being commented on to clarify: The previous post stated that the writer of the article thinks that a majority of voters are dumb racist liars. as previously pointed out, there is nowhere in the article where this is said. So the previous poster is speculating on what the writer is thinking, which is misleading. The description of outlandish claims on social media does not represent “a majority of voters.”

Hi Astro,
sorry that’s exactly what the implication of the author’s words are whether you like it or not. And the fact that all reputable polls show a significant majority of voters are voting No, means that those words apply to the majority of voters as explained.

The attempts to explain away the abuse and ad hominem arguments don’t help, coming up with better arguments for “Yes” is where the efforts should lie. Hope this helps allay your concerns about the author’s deliberate use of inflammatory and abusive language and understand some commentors reasonable reactions to it. Enjoy your weekend.

I appreciate your apology Chewy. As to the “implication” of the author’s words, I prefer to stick to the factual language of what someone has actually said. “Implications” can be seen by different people in different ways and sometimes show up a particular bias so it’s better to stick to facts, particularly in an environment where there has been a lot of misinformation. You may think the tone of something is ” inflammatory and abusive language” when others may interpret this differently. Sticking to what was actually said rather than what you think it may have meant will get us closer to the truth. Thanks also for telling me to “Enjoy your weekend.” As it’s only Tuesday today I’ll hold off on that request until Friday afternoon. Enjoy your week mate.

Astro2, I’m not sure if your comment to me was meant to be smart “R”s or if you’ve got a spectrum thing where everything needs to be very literal for you. Whichever, you also come across as smug and condescending. It’s also partly a ruling elite attitude: Bushnell has it too.

Astro, thanks for confirming that in your view we should only read the literal meaning of the words that are written and any interpretation should not be made as to possible intents.

“Implications” can be seen by different people in different ways and sometimes show up a particular bias so it’s better to stick to facts, particularly in an environment where there has been a lot of misinformation

Thus also confirming that all your posts around how the Voice will function and how effective it will be in achieving any outcomes for Indigenuous Australians is not connected to the referendum question and is pure speculation. Potentially showing up a specific bias which should be corrected, particularly with so much misinformation flying around.

In fact, your repeated description of the Voice as an “advisory body” is at odds with your own statements, when the words “advice” or “advisory” appear nowhere in the referendum question.

Glad we’ve cleared up your erroneous language usage and you’ve agreed to do better.

“Sticking to what was actually said (or written) rather than what you think it may have meant will get us closer to the truth.”

If it fails it will be because the Yes argument wasn’t strong enough to overcome. Nothing more.

Neither mate, I just believe in not misquoting people. Simple. If you think that is a “ruling elite” thing then I don’t think you understand the term.

Funny that the media has never connected the NO vote with the huge number of scams going on at present. Seems to me that people in general are distrustful of saying YES to anything, especially if promoted by politicians which are among the most distrusted professions along with car salesmen, lawyers and real estate agents.

Paul Monk in todays Australian newspaper succinctly covers some of the No Cases points: “First, the voice is an Orwellian fiction. There are many voices. An attempt to shoehorn them into one will not work. And putting it in the Constitution will make it all but impossible to rectify when it doesn’t work. Hence the opposition of Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Nyunggai Warren Mundine.

Second, ironically, the voice would institutionalise racism in Australia by privileging a tiny minority and its cultural past in a country with millions of people from dozens of ethnic and cultural backgrounds from around the world.

Third, the voice will propagate Makarrata: a claim to sovereignty over vast swathes of the continent and huge reparations for fewer than 3 per cent of the total population, raising intractable questions about procedural justice and economic viability.” My own view is that it’s telling that neither the PM or the Aboriginal Affairs Minister Linda Burney will debate the issue with Jacinta Price…

Firstly, the voice can be modified through legislation passed by Parliament so it certainly won’t be “all but impossible to rectify…” Secondly, most representatives of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds understand the particular disadvantage of First Nations people and support recognising them in our Constitution through a Voice to Parliament which certainly doesn’t disadvantage anyone else. Thirdly, the Voice doesn’t “propagate” anything other than listening to First Nations people on matters that affect them, thus making for better and more efficient policy measures. Regarding hysterical claims about “vast swathes of the continent and huge reparations”…these were also made at the time of the Mabo decision 30 years ago (we were all going to lose our backyards apparently) and also after the Apology to the Stolen Generations. Didn’t happen.

You are right, there are many indigenous voices and it is impossible to include every single person’s view in The Voice. That’s why Elders at the grassroots, in the remote, regional communities have been consulted and a majority are for the Voice.
As far as Jacinta Price goes, I suggest you go to Alice Springs and the company

You are right, there are many indigenous
voices and it is impossible to include every single person’s view in The Voice. That’s why Elders at the grassroots, in the remote, regional communities have been consulted and a majority are for the Voice.
As far as Jacinta Price goes, I suggest you go to Alice Springs and the surrounding communities and ask them if Jacinta Price is advocating for them? Or if she has ever really.
Jacinta is NOT an elder.

Tell me when consultation is conducted on a large scale like these, is EVERY single person consultated and please provide an example.

As for framework around the legislation, it will be like any other that the parliament is required to legislate. You do realise legislation is passed all the time and often the general public doesn’t even know…

HiddenDragon9:08 pm 09 Oct 23

“Throughout the referendum campaign, No advocates have not suggested any positive alternative to what the Voice offers.”

With the PM yesterday re-affirming his stance that he would not seek to legislate a Voice to Parliament if the referendum fails, there is no apparent Plan B for the Yes campaigners either.

This is particularly perplexing after months of telling us how important consultation is, and how much better things turn out when the people affected are consulted – but apparently (and regardless of recent positive examples pointed to by the PM) we are to believe that consultation really only works when it is backed by Constitutional force.

When the “we wuz robbed” sulking and blaming (assuming we are not about to witness the greatest collective failure of opinion polling in Australian history) eventually settles down there will be an opportunity to have a good hard look at the Commonwealth role in indigenous affairs, including how it might be informed by the state and territory consultative mechanisms which are being set up. Given the extent to which Albanese and his political ego are wrapped up in the Voice project, that might be a job for his successor as Labor leader.

He also said that “A NO vote means more of the same”. The obvious response to that of course is: Well who’s fault is that? He’s the prime minister, he has been blessed with tens of billions of dollars in unexpected tax receipts from elevated resource prices. If he chooses to throw a tantrum and do nothing about the problem when he doesn’t get his way, then that is entirely on him.

Or is this simply admitting that he has no actual solutions to large numbers of people that are geographically separated over millions of square kilometres with no health, education, police, jobs or any other infrastructure and services?

I’d bet on the latter.

GrumpyGrandpa8:34 pm 09 Oct 23

Thanks Mr Bushnell for another partisan article. I missed where the words “Advertorial” or “Paid Sponsorship”, maybe they are there somewhere?

The thing about misinformation is that both sides do it. I believe that misinformation from the No campaign, is, in some respects a result of the PM’s failure to explain details about the Voice. Of course, we will never know whether the concerns of the No campaign were justified, unless we vote Yes and there becomes the risk.

The Yes campaign seems to loosely link voting Yes with improvements to indigenous health and so on. No promises of course, just a loose statement, to draw an emotional reaction, then “Vote Yes”. In some respects, I believe this stategy is even more misleading than fears of the No campaign, because it is a slight of hand.

Having spoken to a few Yes campaigners, it’s become apparent to me that they too don’t understand it either. It seems like they are simply following Albo, the Pied Piper.

I intend to vote No. Not because I’m a racist, a hater or even a “d*ckhead”, but simply because changing the constitution is a big deal. If there isn’t bipartisan support in the parliament, then the voting No is the best option for everyone.

Aldyth Mackay5:11 pm 09 Oct 23

This article is entirely inappropriate, emotional and undisciplined nonsense. This person constantly contributes and has a very unbalanced and unprofessional idea of what is important. Changing the Constitution to benefit one small part of the community totally disregards the idea of the Constitution that we are one people. What next? Perhaps the Greek Community, the Hungarian, etc. This woke nonsense is a complete contradiction of what we need to all come together. There are indigenous parliamentarians just as there are of all other nationalities.

“Apart from a few conservative jurists and those who have taken a stand on the principle that a body preferencing one sector of the community should not be enshrined in the Constitution, the public discourse has degenerated into a sewer of racist tropes about Australia’s First Nations, and distortions and misleading arguments designed to sow doubt, confusion and outright fear.”

Personally I love how he simply glosses over the people that make a principled stand against providing different levels of political representation based on race and immediately moves onto… but they are mostly just racist, dishonest and stupid. Also, assuming that anyone who takes the aforementioned principled position is conservative is a bit of a stretch.

Ian, if you bother reading this(doubtful). People like you are the gift that keep on giving to the NO vote. We thank you for your service.

brucewantstobecool3:23 pm 10 Oct 23

The constitution was drafted by a bunch of white men who disliked, at best, anyone with a different shade of skin, and the constitution has already been amended many times, with principles-based text then actioned in detail by Parliament, to account for decisions made at the time of constitutional-drafting that are no longer relevant. Why is this any different?

brucewantstobecool – Because they are attempting to institute a different level of political representation based on race? At what point in history has that EVER been a remotely good idea?

I am all for implementing changes where it makes sense but when they can’t even explain a single way in which this will actually lead to improved outcomes besides fluffy, non specific, emotional language with no details… and the cost is scrapping an egalitarian system to establish one that privileges one racial group above all others… yeah, that’s going to be a big NO from me and about two thirds of the rest of the country apparently.

brucewantstobecool8:12 pm 10 Oct 23

I guess that we will never see eye to eye on this – I just don’t see how recognising the First Nations people, and acknowledging they were here first and have been historically mistreated and that maybe we should make sure there’s a system through which their voices may be heard, could be regarded as privileging one people over another. I see the Voice as both a positive initiative and long overdue; clearly you do not.

The referendum has created divisveness is a valid claim. But that divisiveness was there well before the referendum was offered. That divisiveness was created by the black and white activists purporting to be the champions of indigenous Australians. Let me be clear…..not the great majority of indigenous Australians or non-indigenous Australians but those individuals that regularly grandstand for individual glory and resultant power. The words they’ve used as weapons for the last 25 years have come back to haunt them. Every day they’ve called non-indigenous Australians thieves, murderers and child stealers. They’ve called us invaders, oppressors and genocidalists for decades now. They have institutionalised these slurs with Sorry Days, Reconciliation Weeks and politicians issuing apologies for historical incidents that most contemporary non-indigenous Australians especially migrants find it difficult to identify with actions that they themselves would never entertain. They have coloured us as trespassers needing to be admitted to the land we were born in and at the same time have us ritually honour indigenous elders while disparaging our elders for multiple historic offences despite the fact that it was those very elders that built the nation and died for it on distant battle fields. Repeating these accusations creates an intergenerational trauma of its own and it’s that trauma that has gone a long way towards seeing this referendum met with a resounding NO. While politicians see the referendum as creating unity they should have had a quick look in the rear-view mirror to see a divisiveness that was already there. A divisiveness created by opportunistic power grabbers, dubious insecure academics and weak political appeasers.

At the risk of being insulted, subjected to vitriol, accused of being stupid, racist etc, drowned out by shouted slogans, blockaded and harassed or accused of spreading misinformation by those blinded by bias and hysterically opposed to the outcome of democracy, here is the No case presented by SBS:
“NO
– It’s symbolic, and fixing systemic issues facing Indigenous communities would require a body with actual power.
– More bureaucracy will not help Indigenous Australians in disadvantaged communities to close the gap and achieve reconciliation.
– Governments can ignore its advice if they don’t like what it tells them.
– No issue is beyond its scope.
– The Voice adds race to the constitution, and enshrining a body for only one group means permanently dividing Australians.
– Australians are being asked to sign a blank cheque, given key details about how the Voice would operate will be decided after the referendum.
– Because the Voice will be designed by parliament, future governments could change or sideline it.
– It will be a first step to more radical changes like financial reparations for colonisation and dispossession.
– It would be costly and bureaucratic – an additional fiscal burden on top of existing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander representative bodies.
– Indigenous people already have a voice via an unprecedented level of Indigenous representation in parliament.”

I will add is that once you put something by referendum into the Constitution, it will require another referendum to get rid of it. I also remember that last month two people from the Aboriginal tent embassy were convicted of arson for setting alight Old Parliament House. Those who try to burn down a democratic institution do not deserve a voice within one.

First of all you don’t need to complain about something that didn’t happen (at the risk of insulted…etc, no one actually did that did they.) It was a struggle to find any of these points that apply to the Voice to Parliament. The following applies:
– the Voice to Parliament would be an actual body of Indigenous representative, so not “symbolic”.
– it isn’t more bureaucracy as it isn’t a government department or committee.
– Of course the Australian Government does not have to accept the view of the Voice but it needs to consider it (ie to “listen”). The Government of course as it should, retains the right to govern.
– It is incorrect to say that no issue is beyond its scope as the matters dealt with are those impacting on Indigenous people. To give useful information on what this, ie “detail” the first matters considered will be issues such as health, housing, jobs.
– The Voice does not “add race to the Constitution” as that is already there.
– No one is being asked to sign a “blank cheque” if you think there is a blank cheque, please provide evidence of the cheque.
– As has been previously mentioned, Government retains primacy of governing. To put it simply, this means that the advisory council cannot insist that government can do anything, they will advise, which is appropriate. Government can alter aspects of the Voice by legislation. This is part of our system of governance and is appropriate.
– Claiming that it will be a first step to reparations has no basis in fact. There would need to be evidence to back up the claim for it to have any veracity. At this stage there is evidence to the contrary in that the Apology to the Stolen Generations (which Dutton refused to attend and later backtracked on) was according to some, going to mean a first step to reparations. Never happened.
– It would be no more expensive than any other advisory council currently in existence, these are how we use expertise in consultation.
– indigenous representation in Parliament is a good thing, however it doesn’t have the same specificity in regards to Indigenous affairs as it is a different representational process; ie a senator represents the interests of a state or territory and an MP represents the interests of the electorate. So they’re different things.
I hope this helps in your understanding of what the Voice is about Acton and allays some of your fears. I won’t respond to your claims about arson as both European and Aboriginal people can commit arson so it’s irrelevant to the debate about the Voice.

With respect, I think it is you who needs to understand what the Voice is really about and its implications. You may dispute all reasons, from all people on this forum for voting NO, but at least consider the views of Indigenous leader Warren Mundine. He concludes with these words:

“Most have told me they oppose the Voice, don’t understand it, or think it will just cement the influence of Indigenous people at the helms of the organisations who already have the ear and largess of government, while building an even bigger, more expensive bureaucracy and won’t fix any problems.

None of them believe it will help “close the gap”.

The loudest demands for the Voice come from a minority of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elites from organisations that already sit at the table with governments and have been amply funded to deliver improvements people for years with little to show for it.

Unsurprisingly, polling shows support for the Voice continues to fall as more Australians start to see beyond the political rhetoric and understand it for what it really is – politics, power and a distraction from real outcomes for Indigenous people.”
https://www.skynews.com.au/insights-and-analysis/warren-mundine-detailfree-voice-to-parliament-plans-are-a-trojan-horse-that-risk-upending-australias-system-of-government/news-story/7fc7e0d65c3b5f9334defeab3d839360

Hi Acton, with respect I think by your definition of “the loudest demands for the Voice…” coming from “a minority of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander elites…” you’ve just contradicted your argument that we should all be listening to Warren Mundine who, by your definition, comes from an ATSI elite. So perhaps you could clarify what “elites” we should listen to and what “elites” we shouldn’t listen to. And thanks for your post to the Sky News channel, an outlet owned by the Murdoch family, an “elite” group if ever there was one.

I am always amazed by how loudly people will shout without any hint of shame or embarrassment “I don’t know the history of this country, and I have no interest in learning it”. I am paraphrasing, of course, but that’s what they mean.

The biggest misinformation by far has come from the YES campaign – they lost me 100% when they claimed that the Voice proposal was only one page when the leading proponents of the YES campaign themselves have been declaring for years that the Voice is merely the prelude and the real stuff will come later. They really have taken us for total fools!

Eh?

The Voice proposal is here https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/learn/the-question.html

It isn’t even a page unless you write it really really big.

Imagine complaining about misinformation, then blatantly writing some yourself…

IrishPete: Kalo is talking about the Voice proposal, not the Constitution amendment proposal. Two different things.

Don’t take us for fools! Don’t take us for fools! We know the implications of the Voice proposal only too well! Only too well!

John Anderson (ex Deputy PM) has made another 5 minute video on the referendum, this time in conversation with Anthony Dillon, where he explains indigenous people are already consulted, questions whether this proposed body would make a difference, and doubts this is what indigenous people want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F9AUgXemDI

What an unadulterated leftist load of garbage this article is. No one alive today is responsible for anything that occurred well over 200 years ago. There is no way known another bureaucracy enshrined in our constitution is going to fix any of the issues faced by remote communities. That and the fact Albanese can’t even provide any detail as to its operation nor had he dispelled any notion of rent and reparation. Why on earth would we be liable for something we played no part in.

There are more indigenous people in parliament now than ever before so what do they actually do? Are they not a voice?

This author is just another woke leftist who cannot bear anyone having a differing opinion than him. This also insinuates disadvantage in perpetuity. I wonder if he’s ever left the city and actually travelled into remote Australia. I doubt it very much. This will just be a perpetual bunch of elites with their noses in the trough.

Interesting that on 7 Spotlight on Sunday Liam Bartlett actually put on the record that Linda Burney was asked to partake in the debate but refused. What amazing leadership she displays. She’s exactly the person for the job. Prays on emotion and propaganda with absolutely no substance.

The NO result cannot come soon enough.

Living on stolen land makes us responsible.

Pete, speak for yourself. If anything my 50 years of taxes must have gone some way towards subsidising indigenous life in Australia. Rather than wait for The Voice. Donate your land/house to a local indigenous family or charity. Walk the walk.

I didn’t steal any land did you? If you did then hand yours back. I’ve paid my taxes well over 40 years which has contributed to the benefit of everyone in my country.

Still undecided. I’ll have to do some more reading.
Recognising Indigenous people (First nations is a foreign term) in our constitution is a yes.
Having a voice to parliament. Well everyone already has that in the form of their elected local member so maybe they should be doing more listening.

I’ll now answer Bob

What a disgraceful, unprofessional and ill-informed article. Bushnell has really lost the plot this time.

“How would you feel if your home had been invaded, taken over and your parents killed, and then you are asked by the perpetrators to just get over it and move on because we’re all Aussies now?”

The fact is, no one alive suffered this. I am not responsible for the choices of my ancestors, this is not north korea.

As Price rightfully pointed out the so-called ‘colonialists’ also ‘suffered’ if anyone wants to look back, but what is the point of that? And what was the point of this? To sow disharmony and increase division in our nation, and to keep us diverted from the absolute mess Albo and his mates are making.

The debt without concern model of Barr, Andrews, Palacechook and Also is where we are heading and why interest rates and inflation will never be low again.

Gregg Heldon12:28 pm 09 Oct 23

I notice there’s no mention of Lidia Thorpe voting no and the reasons why. It’ll be an advisory body only. The Government can say no to it on every matter and never say yes. It could end up being the biggest toothless tiger. And we, as a country are no better off. It’s a act of a Government being seen to do something without doing anything of substance at all. It’s a gesture and nothing more.
Stop with the gestures and do something useful, constructive and with substance.

The greatest misinformation in this entire charade is the Yes campaigners constant cry of “misinformation” and “disinformatiom” to every argument they dont like amd cant counter with logic or evidemce. With a solid dose of “racccciiisssssttt” sitting on top every time another poll shows support dropping.

It’s tiresome to see how shrill they have become once the weak attempts at emotional manipulation haven’t had the desired result.

Max_Rockatansky10:16 am 09 Oct 23

Vote No, we are all equal in the eyes of God, and in the eyes of the Constitution.

“…the public discourse has degenerated into a sewer of racist tropes about Australia’s First Nations, and distortions and misleading arguments designed to sow doubt, confusion and outright fear.

No matter how many times the No contentions are countered or the lies exposed, the zombie arguments keep being rolled out.

The general premise that if you don’t know vote No is a depressing reflection of an ailing political culture that threatens to stymie action on a range of significant issues confronting the nation, not just the Voice.”

You do realise that such arrogant, condescending strawmanning of the arguments of the NO side are a large part of what turned everyone against your side right?

You know very well that the phrase “If you don’t know, vote no” means that if you don’t know what they have planned because they are intentionally hiding the detail until after the vote, vote no.

It didn’t help your side that Albo openly admitted that this was exactly what they were doing: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/detail-of-indigenous-voice-to-come-after-referendum-albanese-20220731-p5b5zj.html

You can attempt to deflect from this and play pretend that anyone that disagrees with your divisive, race based politics are just stupid and racist all you like but people still aren’t buying it.

Stephen Saunders9:22 am 09 Oct 23

Another you’re-a-racist lecture, another nail in the coffin. It’s always a risk, getting mere unwashed voters involved in “democracy”, they don’t always do as they’re told.

Contrast with immigration, which Albanese has quickly taken to astonishing levels, being very careful not to take the issue anywhere near mere voters.

“This Saturday’s Voice referendum would have probably passed without much controversy in an earlier, less febrile political environment.”

I find that highly unlikely given people tend to be rather against the concept of different levels of political representation based on skin colour.

“what was ample majority support has been turned around, say the polls, during a campaign marred by lies, lies and more lies.”

Right up until the public actually looked into what was actually being proposed at which point they rightfully changed their minds to maintain the current egalitarian system. People have principles, who’d have thought?

The only lies are the continual slurs and insults from the yes side who repeatedly label anyone who doesn’t agree with them as racists.

Congratulations to the loud, obnoxious, condescending, and highly insulting, YES activists, you were the greatest gift the NO vote could ever have asked for.

I was saying the very same thing this morning that there is and has been wrong doing by campaigners in both camps however the Yes people are acting rather disgustingly towards anyone that disagrees. This editorial for starters and then the Project’s slamming Kamahl with incorrect information FFS the media is supposed to be unbiased LOL.

To add a bit of balance a friend of mine found the No campaigners were the idiots when he turned up at the polling both last week.

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