No Carbon Tax Rally

Breda said: “Well, anyone who gets information about climate science from the ABC is bound to be misled. They don’t even pretend to be impartial, and often (as in this example), quote press releases from environmental lobbyists as gospel. Note the source of this oft repeated untruth in the story. Who the hell are they?

Here is a list that, while imperfect, did not come out of a ‘black box’ like the one the ABC cited, and is pretty consistent across 17 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita…..”

Massive FAIL!

So, your argument relies on wikipedia as a credible source of information? Oh boy.

Oh PB, stop digging an even bigger hole for yourself. You’ve made yourself look like a fool by believing – and quoting – green extremists and your red face could light up a room without the need for expensive and unreliable solar and wind power.

I’ve quoted people I agree, though I hardly think the BBC and the Maplecroft Consultancy count as extremists, whereas you have quoted no one. I’m pretty sure that providing verifiable evidence always trumps personal attack and insult, in debate.

Damn sure in fact.

It also trumps putting words in people’s mouths too, (or as we Poms call it “lying”.)

It’s also rather apparent that Krash hasn’t read the report he links to which he found on Wikipedia, as it shows my assertions to be true, and his false.

Again, I stand unchallenged on this matter.

I’m not really fussed about this either way, like all the other green schemes it will cost me money and not achieve very much.

that said it does seem dishonest to push this through before the next election. Surely a better approach for fans of this scheme would be to spend some time, plan out the details, including who will get the tax cuts, what industries are included and how will it be phased in (recommend just the coal industry to start with) and take it to the next election.

A 12-18 month delay isn’t goint to make any difference on a planetary scale and it would seem much better to take this forward with a clear mandate that people can get behind and support rather then just dumping a dead cat on everyone.

Australia being the top per capita is a myth. Here is where the myth came from. Australia were top of the list of the top 20 total emitters.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html

Here is a document that the wikipedia link from post #31 has the detail from, where Australia were 12th on the list in 2008. There was even a drop in CO2’s per capita between 2005 to 2008 overall. Page 95 for the details.

http://www.iea.org/co2highlights/CO2highlights.pdf

Waiting For Godot said :

Oh PB, stop digging an even bigger hole for yourself. You’ve made yourself look like a fool by believing – and quoting – green extremists and your red face could light up a room without the need for expensive and unreliable solar and wind power.

Figures disproving, please.

As a Grumpy Old Fart does this mean I will have to stop? Who is going to tax the cows? That’s right the sky is falling………

Pommy bastard said :

OSLO – The United Arab Emirates, Australia and the United States have the worst overall records for emitting greenhouse gases, according to an index published on Wednesday combining current and historic emissions. The top of the 183-nation ranking, compiled by British consultancy Maplecroft, was dominated by rich countries and OPEC members. It said it aimed to alert investors to countries vulnerable if UN-led climate talks ever agreed wider penalties on carbon.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/UAE-Australia-and-US-top-list-of-carbon-emitters-BA2M4?OpenDocument

A study of the world’s power stations has shown the extent to which developed countries produce more carbon dioxide per head than emerging economies. Australians were found to be the world’s worst polluters per capita, producing five times as much CO2 from generating power as China.

The US came second with eight tonnes of the greenhouse gas per head – 16 times more than that produced by India. The US also produced the most CO2 in total, followed by China.
The Carbon Monitoring for Action (Carma) website is the first global inventory of emissions and looks at 50,000 power stations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092989.stm

Oh PB, stop digging an even bigger hole for yourself. You’ve made yourself look like a fool by believing – and quoting – green extremists and your red face could light up a room without the need for expensive and unreliable solar and wind power.

CSIRO research suggests that our emissions are absorbed by the Australian landmass.
Note this line in the abstract; “The present modelled rate of net sequestration is of a similar magnitude to CO2 emissions from continental fossil fuel burning and land clearing combined.”
http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/BT9920527.htm
Of cause if anybody wants to niggle – we could throw in CO2 absorbing in our territorial seas too.
Australia has to bear the costs of being a big dry place, with high freight costs because we are a long way from anywhere. I can see no reason why for once we should not claim a natural advantage – we should tell the “UN – IPCC – international left wing coalition of income redistributors” – that we have no net emissions of carbon dioxide. Simple.

OSLO – The United Arab Emirates, Australia and the United States have the worst overall records for emitting greenhouse gases, according to an index published on Wednesday combining current and historic emissions. The top of the 183-nation ranking, compiled by British consultancy Maplecroft, was dominated by rich countries and OPEC members. It said it aimed to alert investors to countries vulnerable if UN-led climate talks ever agreed wider penalties on carbon.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/UAE-Australia-and-US-top-list-of-carbon-emitters-BA2M4?OpenDocument

A study of the world’s power stations has shown the extent to which developed countries produce more carbon dioxide per head than emerging economies. Australians were found to be the world’s worst polluters per capita, producing five times as much CO2 from generating power as China.

The US came second with eight tonnes of the greenhouse gas per head – 16 times more than that produced by India. The US also produced the most CO2 in total, followed by China.
The Carbon Monitoring for Action (Carma) website is the first global inventory of emissions and looks at 50,000 power stations.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7092989.stm

A Noisy Noise Annoys An Oyster said :

The myth that Australia has the world’s highest per capita carbon admissions has been doing the rounds for a few years and has been proven to be false.

Proof? Evidence ?

Pommy bastard said :

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/18/2745751.htm

The latest audit of global carbon emissions has found they are continuing to rise and Australia still holds the lead with the highest emissions per capita among developed nations.
——————————————————————————————————
Well, anyone who gets information about climate science from the ABC is bound to be misled. They don’t even pretend to be impartial, and often (as in this example), quote press releases from environmental lobbyists as gospel. Note the source of this oft repeated untruth in the story. Who the hell are they?

Here is a list that, while imperfect, did not come out of a ‘black box’ like the one the ABC cited, and is pretty consistent across 17 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

Notice that Australia is ranked twelfth, and is around a third of the top emitter, Qatar.

Now, here is a list of country GDP per capita by rank, from the very reliable CIA Factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

Notice that Qatar, the largest per capita emitter by far, is more than 3 times as rich per capita as Australia. Does that pass the test for being ‘developed’? Countries like Luxembourg, Bahrain, Kuwait, the US etc also have higher or comparable GDP per capita to us, and emit more.

It is undoubtedly true that population distribution and land area, economic profile etc affect each country’s CO2 emissions per capita. That would be why the US, Canada and Australia are pretty much on par, and why the oil rich countries are at the top of the list, by miles.

Even if you believe the ‘CO2 is causing doomsday’ scenario, the picture is a lot more complex than simplistic (and often dishonest) throwaway lines about per capita emissions indicate – for instance, looking at emissions on a per country basis almost turns the per capita list upside down. These numbers highlight the foolishness of cutting our own economic throats so that Kev can prance around lecturing people in international fora, and Julia can whack some more gaffer tape on her wobbling coalition with the Greens.

A Noisy Noise Annoys An Oyster said :

The myth that Australia has the world’s highest per capita carbon admissions has been doing the rounds for a few years and has been proven to be false.

Proof? Evidence ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/18/2745751.htm

The latest audit of global carbon emissions has found they are continuing to rise and Australia still holds the lead with the highest emissions per capita among developed nations.

A Noisy Noise Annoys An Oyster said :

Your claim that not imposing a tax which will further impoverish pensioners already too scared to turn on a light because of soaring power bills is offensive and typical of the “I’m alright Jack” mentality of public servants who can easily have their union get them a pay rise to cover additional costs.

Scare mongering…

Ms Gillard has told Sky News that tax cuts are a “live option” for assisting households.

“We will be looking at doing that in the best possible way for the economy, for communities and for individuals,” she said.

“Not everybody who is going to be in need of assistance is in the workforce.

“We’ve got around four million pensioners, so we are talking about a balance here across the tax and transfer payment system.”

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/20/3168623.htm?section=justin

A Noisy Noise Annoys An Oyster said :

Your silly nonsense about China and carbon emissions shows that you can’t articulate a sensible argument and have been hoodwinked by the green lobby and their fellow travellers.

If it is a silly argument, why, as with the rest of your babble here, do you not offer a shred of evidence or any rebuttal to disprove it? Apparently all you have to offer is personal attack, and no rational debate, thus proving my point that the anti’s are just a bunch of unthinking morons.

A Noisy Noise Annoys An Oyster said :

I have serious difficulty taking seriously anybody who can’t even spell the word “the” correctly.

Typing lames are so… well… lame….

Pommy bastard said :

There’s a feedback form on their website…Gosh, that’s tempting. 🙂

With Australia having the greatest per-capita greenhouse emissions it’s up to us to take measures to reduce this, taxation and penalties are teh first steps.

If China has worse emissions than us, does that mean us not doing anything will reduce their emissions?

The myth that Australia has the world’s highest per capita carbon admissions has been doing the rounds for a few years and has been proven to be false.

Your claim that not imposing a tax which will further impoverish pensioners already too scared to turn on a light because of soaring power bills is offensive and typical of the “I’m alright Jack” mentality of public servants who can easily have their union get them a pay rise to cover additional costs. Your silly nonsense about China and carbon emissions shows that you can’t articulate a sensible argument and have been hoodwinked by the green lobby and their fellow travellers.

I have serious difficulty taking seriously anybody who can’t even spell the word “the” correctly.

The GetUp Website makes it clear where they’re coming from. And make note Labour wasn’t high up on their score card last election so I’m not sure how strong that influence is.

These days it seems whenever one takes away the right, only the left is left. I’m desperate for new dimensions.

If only choice magazine really did do politics. If they did it would probably look more like a chaser episode.

“As Andrew Bolt said during the week, their views are worth three times the views of the leftist, rent-a-crowd professional protesters”

Actually, in a democracy, their view are worth exactly the same. Any other suggestion is offensive.

There’s a feedback form on their website…Gosh, that’s tempting. 🙂

With Australia having the greatest per-capita greenhouse emissions it’s up to us to take measures to reduce this, taxation and penalties are teh first steps.

If China has worse emissions than us, does that mean us not doing anything will reduce their emissions?

Much as I hate to find myself on the side of the greenies and hippies, I’m far happier being aligned with them on this issues, than the selfish, self centred, misanthropic, “Sod you Jack I’m ok,” unthinking, morons, who make up the opposition.

People like that would see this beautiful country reduced to spoil heaps and industrial wasteland in the name of profit. Most of them are too dumb to realise that they would not profit themselves from this.

Walker said :

GetUp seemed useful for this as a party neutral informer at the last election, a sort of choice magazine for politics

I won’t be attending any rally as I have, you know a job.

But to claim GetUp as some sort of neutral informer, please. They got a massive % of their funding from the Union movement last election. Let me break it down, Australian Labor Party = Union Movement = GetUp. I don’t have a problem with that, but lets at least be honest about it and not sugar coat it.

Walker said :

(GetUp seemed useful for this as a party neutral informer at the last election, a sort of choice magazine for politics, I think there’s a real use for that).

Are you serious? Getup neutral? That is the funniest thing I have heard in a long time.

I read the headline as saying there would be no Carbon Tax Rally. Very disappointing.

RedDogInCan said :

Interesting how an association that was registered merely 12 days ago and has three members can claim to represent the interest of the community.

Crikey has a bit of an expose of the people behind this particular group.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/03/07/meet-the-brains-behind-the-anti-carbon-tax-rallies/

Well-spotted, and not at all surprising.

This debate has become ridiculous.
The truth is the change to renewable energy that this tax seeks to promote is inevitable and very necessary.
At least with a carbon tax, that change can be controlled to some extent.
If we don’t then our reliance on non-renewable fuels will cost us more and more over time. Supplies will become more scarce, extraction more expensive and the cost will be passed on to us.
that is to say nothing of the reliance on over seas sources of oil that opens us up to massive changes in cost, just look at Libya.

I thought the “commies,” ie ‘those comming from all over Australia, would be in favour of the ‘tax’ or am I confusing them with someone else? Anyway, I hope they enjoy driving on the roads that other taxes paid for – the good taxes.

Yet, my heart goes out to these poor souls, with lives so empty that they’re compelled to undertake such selfless, forlorn pilgrimages from all the shires of Oz into the depths of Mordor to battle the evil Sauron and her magic, invisible tax. One tax to bind them all…

Anyway, can anyone join their little tea party or are coffee drinkers (let alone – gasp – latte sippers) forbidden? I dread the thought that the emissaries of this evil empire will turn up to mock these noble warriors by, say, just pointing and laughing, even if every one of these mighty warriors is indeed worth three of each of the lowly dark denizens and their green chardonnay lattes, as Andrew the Great, he of Flat Earth, proclaims.

Yet, there is a creeping sense of doubt in my admiration. I didn’t think there were nearly enough exclamation marks or capitals in the original post. How can we take it seriously?

Waiting For Godot said :

Just remember, every opinion poll taken so far indicates that the No Carbon Tax Rally is supported by the overwhelming majority of Australians.

Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hjh13hxehl4

Neilsen polled 46% for a carbon price and 44% against a month ago. Now its 56% against. Majority, yes. Overwhelming, no.

Things will be payed for one way, or another. Also, more information would be useful at this point. (GetUp seemed useful for this as a party neutral informer at the last election, a sort of choice magazine for politics, I think there’s a real use for that).

I hear the system has worked out in other countries with no great harm and with benefits. If this is true then why the fuss, we have a working model, true?

Waiting For Godot said :

On the other hand, the people attending the No Carbon Tax Rally are ordinary,conservative mainstream family people – the silent majority – who do not usually protest. As Andrew Bolt said during the week, their views are worth three times the views of the leftist, rent-a-crowd professional protesters.

Because we all take Andrew Bolt’s opinion as the majority opinion…

Just remember, every opinion poll taken so far indicates that the No Carbon Tax Rally is supported by the overwhelming majority of Australians.

Only those polls spruiked by Sydney commercial talk-back radio. Wow! 98% against the carbon tax! That’s Saddam Hussein popularity levels…

me? I’m a born consumer. I’ll pay the tax and won’t cut back on my consumption…

Waiting For Godot said :

The reason GetUp! was able to get 8000 people to their rally in Melbourne is simple. They were the usual suspects, the rent-a-crowd professional protesters who can be mobilised by email, phone trees and the lefty grapevine to be on the streets within minutes to stage protests at the drop of a hat. We can safely dismiss their views as being an unrepresentative fringe element not to be taken seriously.

On the other hand, the people attending the No Carbon Tax Rally are ordinary,conservative mainstream family people – the silent majority – who do not usually protest. As Andrew Bolt said during the week, their views are worth three times the views of the leftist, rent-a-crowd professional protesters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah – cos Andrew Bolt isn’t a fantasist. I want proof that thousands are paid specifically to attend Getup protests.

People who receive SMS and email inviting to a protest still make a decision to attend it, in the same way that the ‘ordinary’ folk who attend No Carbon Tax rallies respond to hand delivered mail, the wireless and the telephone (and golly geeze even this new fangled email and internet). It is probably only the geriatric state of the No Tax mob that keeps the attendance numbers down. Or the straitjackets.

As for polling, it is almost inevitable that a poll asking people whether they like a new tax gets negative results. But that doesn’t mean a premium on carbon shouldn’t be done – ordinary folk didn’t much like the GST or tariff reductiion / structural adjustment programs either.

fozzy said :

It seems a bit pointless as no-one is introducing a carbon tax so why protest to stop it? Labour has proposed an emissions trading system with an initial fixed price. So would say this acts like a tax but fundamentally it is not.

Are you deluded or have you been smoking something?

This is a tax. Just because they change the word from tax to pricing doesn’t change the fact that it is a tax.

I’m not a GetUp member, but I would love to join the counter rally. I am also an ordinary, family, mainstream citizen (to quote Waiting) who would happily pay more for my electricity, gas and petrol, in the knowledge that I and everyone else will end up using less.

Or maybe I’ll join the No Carbon Tax rally as a subversive. I can think of some great placards:

“I’ve never seen a dinosaur, so I don’t care if my children never see a polar bear”

or

“I’m with stupid”

or

“Science is too hard – I’ll stick with religion”

Oh goodness, if you have to quote Andrew Bolt to support your arguments you really must be desperate…

Also I understood that the polling on pricing carbon was quite mixed depending on how the question was asked (Newspoll, Morgan, Essential) so it’s very misleading to say “every opinion poll taken so far indicates that the No Carbon Tax Rally is supported by the overwhelming majority of Australians”.

Anyway, back to the locally relevant content, I would be grateful if anyone could post here about planned Canberra counter-rallies.

As Andrew Bolt said,

Tony Abbott will be very proud.

The reason why so few people turn up to things like this is that they have jobs, unlike many of the hiipy lefty protesters.

An organization which only officially came into existence less than two weeks ago according to ASIC, registered a domain on the day it incorporated, but had made 12 variations to its domain data in that fortnight, is slick enough to have reasonable web design, a business premises in the Sydney CBD, and is in line with Liberal party rhetoric and has sufficient asset backing and logistics ability to bus loads of rent-a-crowd…
But still chalks itself as an underdog as uses the words ‘grassroots’ and ‘concerned taxpayers’…

I love the smell of fresh astroturf.

fozzy said :

So I suppose on Wednesday, we’ll get to see how many stupid people there are that big carbon has been able to bribe.

Considering China is opening two plants a week (source BBC) and by the year 3030 will output 8 gigatons a year, which is equal to the entire world’s CO2 production today (source wired.com).

So fozzy, can you explain how will Australia’s Carbon Dioxide Tax will save the world and Australia itself from droughts, fires, famine and whatever else is supposedly caused by AGW?

I think it’s quite obvious who the stupid people in all this are.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/latest/8916664/carbon-tax-billions-to-help-poor-nations/

But I guess all is okay though fozzy, turn your lights off for an hour on March 26th and you will help save the world!

Interesting how an association that was registered merely 12 days ago and has three members can claim to represent the interest of the community.

Crikey has a bit of an expose of the people behind this particular group.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/03/07/meet-the-brains-behind-the-anti-carbon-tax-rallies/

rebcart said :

“This is going to be big”

Is that ‘big’ in the same way Melbourne last week was big, where you guys had 200 protesters and the pro-carbon-tax counter-protest had 8000?

Bussing people in from other locations for events is a time-honoured tactic of Scientologists, to make people think there are a lot more local members than there really are for PR purposes. I wonder…

I, too, will be looking out for the counter-protests.

I knew that in the city of the Volvo socialists, latte left and Green Canberra Times/ABC true believers we would get a response like this.

The reason GetUp! was able to get 8000 people to their rally in Melbourne is simple. They were the usual suspects, the rent-a-crowd professional protesters who can be mobilised by email, phone trees and the lefty grapevine to be on the streets within minutes to stage protests at the drop of a hat. We can safely dismiss their views as being an unrepresentative fringe element not to be taken seriously.

On the other hand, the people attending the No Carbon Tax Rally are ordinary,conservative mainstream family people – the silent majority – who do not usually protest. As Andrew Bolt said during the week, their views are worth three times the views of the leftist, rent-a-crowd professional protesters.

I’m sure GetUp! will be able to muster many thousands for a counter rally. In fact I’d be surprised if they cant. They’ve already sent out several panic-stricken emails concerned that they are losing the argument and calling for donations and attendees at their rallies supporting the carbon tax.

Just remember, every opinion poll taken so far indicates that the No Carbon Tax Rally is supported by the overwhelming majority of Australians.

It seems a bit pointless as no-one is introducing a carbon tax so why protest to stop it? Labour has proposed an emissions trading system with an initial fixed price. So would say this acts like a tax but fundamentally it is not.

So I suppose on Wednesday, we’ll get to see how many stupid people there are that big carbon has been able to bribe.

“This is going to be big”

Is that ‘big’ in the same way Melbourne last week was big, where you guys had 200 protesters and the pro-carbon-tax counter-protest had 8000?

Bussing people in from other locations for events is a time-honoured tactic of Scientologists, to make people think there are a lot more local members than there really are for PR purposes. I wonder…

I, too, will be looking out for the counter-protests.

…If not, let’s start one.

Anybody have any information about planned counter-rallies?