Planning report says EV charging in all new ACT developments a must

Darren Sault because it won’t for cars.

Hydrogen has its use case in large vehicles (e.g semi trailers) and other large machinery/vehicles (e.g. mining trucks)

https://youtu.be/f7MzFfuNOtY

Darren Sault Then these Billions spend on re-charging infrastructure will be torn out and sent to the tip mate… I agree that the fire risk for EVs in apartments is massive, EV fires are higher than petrol cars now, let alone once we get an ‘average fleet age’ that’s higher with old tired batteries being charged up by some uni student in a cheap apartment complex.. Hydrogen for cars is a viable option despite the comment above, Toyota are actively developing it now… its going to happen, whether it dominates and wins out or is just a ‘part of the mix’ is yet to be seen, but Hydrogen isn’t going away, ever.

Darren Sault we won’t, because hydrogen makes no sense for cars.

Darren Sault my bet is on reversible PEMFC hydrogen cars potentially dominating the market in ~20 years, possibly with small battery packs of their own, and that will mean some of them may leverage charging infrastructure themselves, which would mean it isn’t wasted.

Warwick Bradly It makes sense in a country like Australia with the huge distances. Much better for the drive to Perth or to Broome, etc. You mightn’t drive these distances, but some others do. Try doing that with an electric car. Electric cars are good to get around locally and short trips, but not for long distant away from built up urban areas. Personally though when I was working, I mostly used a bicycle for local trips, or caught the bus.

Julie Macklin Range in electric cars is increasing each year and building a recharge station is relatively easy and they are popping even in remote corners of Australia. The world is adopting EVs, hydrogen is not even on the radar of most manufacturers because among many reasons is much more expensive to make electricity, turn to hydrogen, transport hydrogen, turn that hyrdogen back into electricity in your car.

Warwick Bradly They would likely transport ammonia. Many outback places are not on the grid and use diesel to make electricity and I doubt they have enough power generation to power lots of EVs.

Julie Macklin You’re talking about a pretty extreme case here. Average Australian drives about 38km a day. Once EVs reach a certain critical mass. I very much doubt that in a location that in the outback that has sun, transporting ammonia and then treating it and storing hydrogen would be more viable than just deploying some panels and a battery. I know two people who now live in rural areas off grid and just charge their EV from their PV system.

Warwick Bradly Even if someone mainly drives in a city, the car must be able to go to all places when required. You might be a stay at home type person, by I and many others are not, and the only car many of us own must be able to go everywhere as required. In the cities there is public transport, bicycles etc and driving is not so necessary. I rode a bike to work or caught a bus (even with a 2 km walk at the work end, as the bus went no closer). The car was for holidays, nights and sometimes weekends; rarely for getting to work. I made sure where I lived had access to my work; either walking, cycling (that distance is now increased with electric bikes), or public transport. I suspect most people don’t consider that.
However I know that EVs are the new religion for some and nothing is better. Any other possibilities and any weaknesses of EV will be howled down.
I would love an EV, but they just don’t work for me, or for many other people. Now an electric/petrol car would work for me, as long at it was at least AWD, had ground clearance, room to camp in the back and not a huge car, as that’s a nuisance in the city. Petrol cars with those specifications do exist (for under $35,000), but it would be nice if an electric motor was added. That way if there was nowhere to charge, the car could run on petrol, but likely most of the time on electricity. If really remote, jerry cans of petrol could be carried, as is often seen I the outback, as in some places, even petrol stations are non existent.
Also when driving long distances in the outback, it isn’t practical to wait for the car to recharge, and many places people go has no infrastructure at all. People commonly camp where there are no buildings, power, etc. Travel to these remote places and you would discover this yourself.

Julie Macklin You don’t know anything about me, so it’s better not to make assumptions.

Loads of Australians are taking holidays in their EVs. Tesla is now in the top 20 selling cars in Australia. Are EVs right now suited to very remote parts of Australia, no, but hydrogen cars never will be. The takeup rate for EVs will only rise. A point will come where petrol stations are shut down or converted to recharge places. The risk will be not being able to get liquid fuel in remote areas. It’s a way off but entirely possible.

EVs also keep improving. It’s not inconceivable to imagine a range of 2000kms in the forseeable future, if that is what is required.

Julie Macklin how often do you travel more than 700kms?
Realistically your argument is flawed!
With the current stock of fast chargers that are improving there will be no issues traveling 1000km plus in a day!
Even some of the most remote 4 wheel drive trails will be doable in an EV. Especially if you stay at a motel or caravan park where you can plug in.
I like to go camping and 4 wheel driving and I only travel more than the current range of EVs every couple of years at best.

Clinton Berry If you had read what I wrote, you would not be making those comments. I don’t always stay in a motel or caravan park. I sometimes stay in places with no power. Also, tell me what electric car can do 700kms on a charge, fully laden into a headwind and maybe with hills, although most of Australia is flat? (I don’t pull a caravan, but many other people do, so add that as well.) And how much is this magic car that can do 700kms in one charge? Likely way beyond my price range.
And you expect places not on the grid, which generate their power with diesel to have the capacity if lots of electric cars were to arrive at once?
Remote camping places have no power available, and certainly no motels.
(I am soon likely to drive over 15,000kms.)

Scott Abela https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/

Marlon Leicester Except that hydrogen is flawed from the outset for passenger vehicles. It’s expensive to create hydrogen, store it, transport it. The whole process is inherently flawed compared to EVs.

Warwick Bradly presently, very much yes, but there’s plenty of potential in the future. Reversible PEMFCs are basically batteries, and with a decade or two of R&D, may be cheaper than conventional batteries, and potentially able to store energy more densely.

Marlon Leicester Maybe. Trouble is that if your talking 20 years, the horses or kWs will have bolted. Already the world is heavily populated with recharge stations. Norway is even ripping out old servos and turning them to EV charging stations. Hydrogen, no matter which way you cut it, has efficiency challenges. That said hydrogen may have potential (pun intended) in large vehicles such as freight ships.

Scott Abela actually its a now thing. De gasification requires action now and how stratas are going to deal with it

George Stoyanoff the need is now, but the infrastructure and actual power are the initial challenges, then there’s the fire risks and costs tenants will need to fund.. some suburbs simply have no more power capacity to deliver to the property. In some cases it’s going to be very difficult.

Scott Abela i agree that infrastructure is the issue. But unless we start the ball rolling with stratas look at which in turn will put pressure on authorities to also start looking at changing

George Stoyanoff The strata’s are going to be a ‘case by case’ challenge. Most are maxxed out on how much power they can draw now, but that can be fixed easier then the fire risk. The massive spend does commit us to EVs, and not any other emerging technology, these ‘home refuelling’ ideas have been around with Natural Gas powered cars, but they never took off as high petrol prices tend to not last long enough in the past. Gas is available down most streets, and its ‘sealed refuelling’ so there’s no real fire risk like how petrol can be spilled. I am an engineer, and introduced a fleet of Compressed Natural Gas busses into our local fleet, I also drive LPG cars at home because I like the fuel option and how it works for me. I am bothered by Lithium’s fire risk, and there are no better options that to use lithium so the fire risk with a battery are not likely to go away anytime in the foreseeable future. A fire in an apartment carpark would be a major issue, and we will get them because EV fires are more common that with petrol cars, and this is before we get an ‘Average fleet age’ thats got old and tired batteries in it. The problems we have today aren’t the ones we get as the fleet ages, but we should be looking at them all… France bought 140 EV busses in 2016, it just took them off the road last month due to two battery fires that happened out of nowhere and with passengers on the bus. They burst into flame without warning and its a risk we don’t have with our current technology.. They bigger the lithium batter, the bigger the fire risk, its unlikely they will engineer it out from all that I’ve read. I just wonder if in 10 years we’ll see hydrogen as the main game and have spend Billions on electric charging thats obsolete. I don’t know, but its a risk. Here is one of the French busses going up in flames.. I am NOT anti EV mate, but the risks are real and too often not mentioned.

Scott Abela ev battery technology needs improving and sad thing is australia has done a lot of research into non lithium batteries which sadly will be sold for a minimal amount to china for us to import.

George Stoyanoff It does, or the energy required needs to drop, like in half.. I can’t see Lithium tech going much further but they may well come up with something else and surprise us… The rest of the cars are good to go, just the power issue. I wonder if we’ll be allowed to really buy from China for much longer.. There are US companies investing in Lithium and rare earths in Aus right now, its all about 10 years too late.

Scott Abela can’t say any of these issues have bothered us in 3 years of EV ownership . Just the best car we’ve had by far and so more advanced than a petrol version. This sounds like more FUD. I can take you for a ride sometime if you’d like, you’ll probably want one.