Public transport failure?

Genie said :

I must be the minority. Because *gasp* I enjoy catching the bus and find it convenient. Perhaps I’ve just always lived in places that are serviced well by ACTION.

I’m also not too fussed about the fares going up. It’s still significantly cheaper than driving. I seem to only be putting $50 on my card every 3-4 weeks and I can’t even park my car in the city for $50 a week. Let alone petrol costs ontop of parking fees
Yes it is quicker to drive to work than catch the bus but I enjoy my time zoning out with my music or throwing angry birds at pigs. Plus I’m getting some added exercise walking to and from the bus stops.

Yes catching the bus in the summer heat sucks, but so does getting into a car that has been baking in the sun for 8-10hours.

+1. Bus is good for reading books and listening to podcasts. It is sad how many people who live in the inner suburbs still drive, when bus is a better option.

The real transport policy this mob appears to have is remove car-parks and increase car parking fees in the hope that people might use buses more often.

However, ten years of the same policy has proven not so. …

It’s not worked because they have still not reduced the supply enough or increased the price enough.

Sigh ! That post was meant to go in the other ACTION thread. Damn phone and its tiny screen

I must be the minority. Because *gasp* I enjoy catching the bus and find it convenient. Perhaps I’ve just always lived in places that are serviced well by ACTION.

I’m also not too fussed about the fares going up. It’s still significantly cheaper than driving. I seem to only be putting $50 on my card every 3-4 weeks and I can’t even park my car in the city for $50 a week. Let alone petrol costs ontop of parking fees.

Yes it is quicker to drive to work than catch the bus but I enjoy my time zoning out with my music or throwing angry birds at pigs. Plus I’m getting some added exercise walking to and from the bus stops.

Yes catching the bus in the summer heat sucks, but so does getting into a car that has been baking in the sun for 8-10hours.

Canberroid said :

I don’t know why the real time passenger info system is taking so long to develop (since they’re using existing technology and have plenty of examples to copy), but if they can get that working smoothly and improve reliability a smidgen, I’ll give the buses another go.

+millions

Anyone want to bet that when it does finally gets rolled out it’s a closed system and useless?

Simply put, I don’t use buses to get to work because they are not an effective use of my time, and they are not reliable enough. The bus is often anywhere from 5 minutes early to 10 minutes late (or doesn’t turn up at all). I’m not a fan of turning up 10 minutes early and waiting for 20 to start a trip that I could have already completed in my car.

I don’t know why the real time passenger info system is taking so long to develop (since they’re using existing technology and have plenty of examples to copy), but if they can get that working smoothly and improve reliability a smidgen, I’ll give the buses another go.

KB1971 said :

Felix the Cat said :

johnboy said :

Bicycles count as private transport no?

Don’t get me started on those darn cyclists, clogging up the roads, knocking pedestrians down on paths and moving all the tables in the coffee shops while prancing around in their lycra outfits and not paying rego. Did I miss anything?

Red lights……THINK OF THE RED LIGHTS PEOPLE!!!!!!!

The bells . the bells!!!

I get the bus a few times a week, sharing the load with M. Cholet in taking Master Cholet to school. When not in the car, he uses his bike. We are doing everything we can to ‘travel sustainably’ given the need to get to work on time. In discussing with M. Cholet a couple of weeks ago about the problem with getting the bus, I was remarking that in the stinking hot summer, having to travel on an old style Action bus with no cooling would be the last straw for many people who could easily drive. Personally, if we did not have other morning commitments to see to that the bus service cannot cater for, I think I’d throw in the towel – especially in the summer where I usually get of the bus feeling like I want to vomit.

Failure to upgrade the infrastructure in a decent timeframe and to properly analyse how to make improvements has finally caught up with them.

When I first came to Canberra 10 years ago I thought the bus service was marginally better than now. Because I get my bus during peak travel times it’s not too bad for me, however I wouldn’t like to be a pensioner or school kid who has to travel further than the local school trying to get around. Of course the buses can’t take us directly everywhere we want to go, but there are ways and means of facilitating journeys better.

The chap who wrote the report argued on the radio the other day that Canberra’s smaller population, btw apparently not incomparable to Brisbane and Perth, is a plus rather than a minus. It does seem that the Government rolls out all of the excuses before trying. Instead they just want to spend billions on light rail for those who would already have a half decent bus service that could just be, well, improved.

Putting up parking fees is not going to discourage patronage of car parks one iota in this town. You only have to look at the car parks and see the nice cars that Canberrans can afford to drive to tell you that an extra dollar won’t make a difference to their day. Annoy them yes, because the car parks are not that well maintained and have old ticket machines that are not credit card enabled, but make them catch the bus, no.

Felix the Cat said :

johnboy said :

Bicycles count as private transport no?

Don’t get me started on those darn cyclists, clogging up the roads, knocking pedestrians down on paths and moving all the tables in the coffee shops while prancing around in their lycra outfits and not paying rego. Did I miss anything?

Red lights……THINK OF THE RED LIGHTS PEOPLE!!!!!!!

aussielyn said :

The one certainty is that roads will be more congested with increasing population. Population increases outside the ACT will add more commuter pressure. Once Googong is populated, the Monaro Hghy and Canberra Ave will turn into car parks during peak hours.

Probably Pialligo Avenue/Morshead Drive/Parkes Way as well.

Martlark said :

You can’t entice car drivers into a bus. This is at the heart of the Government’s failure to boost public transport. The idea that you can make a bus more attractive than a car is pure fantasy. Pretty much the only way you’ll get a Canberran out of a car is to make car driving so awful, expensive and inconvenient that a bus seems better.

I don’t believe that’s true. Sure, you’ll never get Canberrans to completely give up their cars, but I reckon there’s massive room to increase public transport use. Lots of families have 2nd and 3rd cars which are pretty much used exclusively to shuttle a single person to and from work 5 days a week. If you work in any of the town centres, then keeping a 2nd car on the road just for the privilage of hunting down an expensive car park each morning is neither cheap or convenient. A half decent bus service could be both these things, and eliminate the need and expense of multiple cars in a household.

Richard Bender said :

It doesn’t. The amount paid by motorists in fuel excise is much greater than governments spend on construction and maintenance of roads.

What people like Dr Mees need to realise is that there is no failure here. While some people don’t want to drive, can’t afford to run a car or can’t drive, the majority of people in Canberra are voting with their feet…or wheels, as the case might be. The local administration is doing the right thing by providing the infrastructure for motorists.

If some negative externality, such as emissions of carbon dioxide, exists, the correct response is to price that externality (which the Commonwealth effectively already does by setting the excise at a higher rate than necessary to pay for roads), not force people to use a mode of transport they don’t want to use. If the problem is scarcity of oil – which it won’t be for a while yet – that will be reflected in the price of fuel.

People can’t vote with their feet at all if they only have one choice, imagine if all the roads in Canberra were single lane and unpaved, but each suburb was serviced by a convenient tram. Would it be sensible to continue neglecting road infrastructure because people obviously prefer the tram?

Realistically, driving is the only option for most people in Canberra. The very fact that public transport patronage was much higher in the 1980s suggests that many people would rather be on the bus, but can’t use it due to the poor quality of the service. Road investment and public transport investment are not (or should not) be mutually exclusive.

On the point of negative externalities, I’d argue that the price of petrol doesn’t come close to covering negative externalities associated with driving. To name a few: congestion, air pollution, global warming, obesity, traffic accidents, suburban sprawl, oil spills, etc.

zippyzippy said :

Diggety said :

Antagonist said :

Rollersk8r said :

davo101 said :

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.

Strongly agree!

Shane obviously did not read that part: “Certainly we need to get the balance right and put more effort into public transport, Mr Rattenbury said. “That’s why I’m very pleased that as a result of the Greens-Labor parliamentary agreement we are moving towards developing light rail in the ACT. Nice one, Shane 🙂

So a major study is conducted into transport studies, and our minister for transport doesn’t read it. But makes public comment on it anyway.

I don’t think Shane Rattenbury hasn’t dropped his Greenpeace work ethic at all. A worry considering the importance of his portfolios.

Bit if a non-sequitur there.

You can’t make those assumptions about the guy just his one newspaper quote. The report also says that all the cities that have had a resurgence in public transport patronage have done so using rail based systems. That’s what canberra’s moving to. Shane could very well have been talking about that.

That’s heavy rail not trams. And look to the complaints of the Melbourne rail network:

Lack of maintenance on tracks, like 5 years behind.
No investment in new rolling stock
Hardly any upgrades on signalling
Overcrowded trains that caught everyone off guard with the growth in use of rail

And Adelaide
A light rail extension that goes no where and is hardly used and cost a mozzarella to build

And we can go on……

But it it not gold that we have Mees one of the golden haired boys of ACT light rail fan boys, turn the knife in!

I came here before self government. Catching a bus from Dickson to Woden meant two buses so two tickets.I was used to transfers, so this seemed like a rip-off. A monthly ticket was no better. A couple of public holidays, February, or a few days sick and it would cost more. And there weren’t that many, so I rode my bicycle.

Later, in Calwell, still before self government. The bus got onto Ashley Drive, only to immediately turn in to Isabella Plains and eventually exit at EXACTLY the same point. At least the next suburb and the next had meandering through roads. Riding the bicycle to Woden took about the same time, without the frustration, so I did that. The planned main roads that avoid the suburbs are anti-bus. Buses need to go where the people are; in unplanned cities, that’s where many main roads are too.

The old Federal Department of the Territory has a lot to answer for.

The new Molonglo development has bus bays on the main road. They may have a chance there.

Felix the Cat said :

johnboy said :

Bicycles count as private transport no?

Don’t get me started on those darn cyclists, clogging up the roads, knocking pedestrians down on paths and moving all the tables in the coffee shops while prancing around in their lycra outfits and not paying rego. Did I miss anything?

Found this for you, and can’t help but feel that the author gave serious consideratoin to using the word ‘lycra’ at one point ….

“Cycling currently plays only a minor role in reducing car use in Australian cities. Although it is important to provide safe, convenient facilities for cyclists, some of the extravagant rhetoric currently circulating about cycling needs to be given a rest. Policy-makers need to pay attention to the extremely restricted constituency that currently dominates the cycling ‘market’ (mainly male, inner city professionals), and develop measures to make cycling a viable option for a wider section of the community, as is the case in the best European cities. This should mean an end to policies such as the recent trend to combine bike and bus lanes in such a way that buses must weave back and forth across cycle lanes to reach stops, which endangers cyclists, delays buses and adds to driver stress.”

Bus driver! Outta my way!

Diggety said :

Antagonist said :

Rollersk8r said :

davo101 said :

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.

Strongly agree!

Shane obviously did not read that part: “Certainly we need to get the balance right and put more effort into public transport, Mr Rattenbury said. “That’s why I’m very pleased that as a result of the Greens-Labor parliamentary agreement we are moving towards developing light rail in the ACT. Nice one, Shane 🙂

So a major study is conducted into transport studies, and our minister for transport doesn’t read it. But makes public comment on it anyway.

I don’t think Shane Rattenbury hasn’t dropped his Greenpeace work ethic at all. A worry considering the importance of his portfolios.

Bit if a non-sequitur there.

You can’t make those assumptions about the guy just his one newspaper quote. The report also says that all the cities that have had a resurgence in public transport patronage have done so using rail based systems. That’s what canberra’s moving to. Shane could very well have been talking about that.

Martlark said :

quote” Mr Rattenbury said the key to enticing passengers onto buses was to make services better.”

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/transport-failure-spectacular-20130114-2cq4z.html#ixzz2I1RPA2HA

You can’t entice car drivers into a bus. This is at the heart of the Government’s failure to boost public transport. The idea that you can make a bus more attractive than a car is pure fantasy. Pretty much the only way you’ll get a Canberran out of a car is to make car driving so awful, expensive and inconvenient that a bus seems better.

Isn’t that what they are trying to do?

I am 100% reliant on public transport as I don’t have a drivers license and I am too lazy to ride my bike. 5 days a week, I think Canberra has a good network (except for Weston Creek). I can get anywhere I need to go easily. People are just too lazy to get up that little bit earlier. Obviously people who live in Oaks Estate, Hall and Tharwa are excused from my previous statement.

That being said, the service on weekends is terrible. Unless you only travel on the intertown route, you have no hope of getting anywhere on a weekend.

Jivrashia, the half-hour suburban bus was ‘reversed’ to two hourly.

Canberracanuck said :

I love how people moan about how the expense of constructing infrastructure for public transport (whether for trains or buses) can never be recouped, how it’s always going to operate at a loss…as if the construction of vast networks of asphalt for private automobiles somehow doesn’t have exactly the same problem.

It doesn’t. The amount paid by motorists in fuel excise is much greater than governments spend on construction and maintenance of roads.

What people like Dr Mees need to realise is that there is no failure here. While some people don’t want to drive, can’t afford to run a car or can’t drive, the majority of people in Canberra are voting with their feet…or wheels, as the case might be. The local administration is doing the right thing by providing the infrastructure for motorists.

If some negative externality, such as emissions of carbon dioxide, exists, the correct response is to price that externality (which the Commonwealth effectively already does by setting the excise at a higher rate than necessary to pay for roads), not force people to use a mode of transport they don’t want to use. If the problem is scarcity of oil – which it won’t be for a while yet – that will be reflected in the price of fuel.

quote” Mr Rattenbury said the key to enticing passengers onto buses was to make services better.”

Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/transport-failure-spectacular-20130114-2cq4z.html#ixzz2I1RPA2HA

You can’t entice car drivers into a bus. This is at the heart of the Government’s failure to boost public transport. The idea that you can make a bus more attractive than a car is pure fantasy. Pretty much the only way you’ll get a Canberran out of a car is to make car driving so awful, expensive and inconvenient that a bus seems better.

The one certainty is that roads will be more congested with increasing population. Population increases outside the ACT will add more commuter pressure. Once Googong is populated, the Monaro Hghy and Canberra Ave will turn into car parks during peak hours.
The railway line is an under-utilized transport corridor that may be sacrificed for the East Lake development. The Cooma line, if restored, could service Jerra etc. This line, if extended, could run on the Wentworth Ave & Brisbane Ave medians.
Contracts for phase one of the light rail network must be financially tightly controlled so they run on time and on budget. If this is not done other, future phases, will be in jeopardy. Turning this issue into a political football is the worst thing that could happen.
I wish the minister and those working on the public transport strategy and implementation all the best. The battle is just starting.

While providing a nice headline, I think Paul Mees is looking backwards rather than forwards.

The ACT Light Rail response is on our blog here:
http://www.actlightrail.info/2013/01/canberra-spectacular-transport-policy.html

You cant excuse government policy failure from the past, but credit needs to be given to present policy initiatives – and people need to ensure that these policies move from election platform promises to properly funded projects.

Damien Haas
Chair, ACT Light Rail

This report by Mees on the history of public transport in Canberra that was referred to by Pirate Biggles suggests that the Canberra community has demonstrated a remarkbale talent for converting success into failure. It’s well worth reading to see how it’s done.

http://www.atrf.info/papers/2012/2012_Mees.pdf

johnboy said :

Bicycles count as private transport no?

Don’t get me started on those darn cyclists, clogging up the roads, knocking pedestrians down on paths and moving all the tables in the coffee shops while prancing around in their lycra outfits and not paying rego. Did I miss anything?

I love how people moan about how the expense of constructing infrastructure for public transport (whether for trains or buses) can never be recouped, how it’s always going to operate at a loss…as if the construction of vast networks of asphalt for private automobiles somehow doesn’t have exactly the same problem.

Without supposed public transport problems (and the sub-topic of cyclists vs. motorists) what else would we have to talk about in Canberra??

thebrownstreak69 said :

Chop71 said :

Why not give light rail to those who have waited the longest, ie Woden / Belconnen and then Tuggers.

No wonder residents outside the inner north voted like they did in the last election.

The intertown service is what works – why implement light rail?

So those bus resources and drivers could be used more efficiently on feeder services.

johnboy said :

Belco voted pretty well for the government…

of course a headline candidate pairing of Coe and Dunne wouldn’t have helped.

West Belconnen didn’t and I would suspect there to be a greater swing away from the inner north parties come the next election should policy remain the same.

Jivrashia said :

reversing successful public transport measures in place until the late 1980s.

What were they?
I can understand measures being eroded by the ever increasing density of the population and traffic, but what were those that were actually REVERSED?

I found this:
“Fifty years of public transport planning in Canberra” by the same author.
http://www.atrf.info/papers/2012/2012_Mees.pdf
Which has a fairly succinct breakdown of the reversal of policy.

It is a pity to have a published study confirm that our proposed transport policy was aimed in the right direction of restoring Canberra to a ‘Transit City’.

This might be worth remembering 4 years down the track.

Stuart Biggs
Pirate Party ACT.

Jivrashia said :

reversing successful public transport measures in place until the late 1980s.

What were they?
I can understand measures being eroded by the ever increasing density of the population and traffic, but what were those that were actually REVERSED?

Increased population densities and traffic are more likely to increase public transport. Instead the opposite has happened.

Or so my Urban Planning friends tell me.

Jivrashia said :

reversing successful public transport measures in place until the late 1980s.

What were they?
I can understand measures being eroded by the ever increasing density of the population and traffic, but what were those that were actually REVERSED?

p.7 ff

The big advantage of light rail is the great cost and the inflexibility of the fixed route. Let me explain: if you’ve spent huge dollars on something you’re more likely to encourage it and make it work. ie: increased Government commitment to getting it popular. The fixed route means that people can now rely upon the transport infrastructure and not have to worry that a wave of the hand can change the route (common with bus routes).

Chop71 said :

Why not give light rail to those who have waited the longest, ie Woden / Belconnen and then Tuggers.

No wonder residents outside the inner north voted like they did in the last election.

The intertown service is what works – why implement light rail?

reversing successful public transport measures in place until the late 1980s.

What were they?
I can understand measures being eroded by the ever increasing density of the population and traffic, but what were those that were actually REVERSED?

HiddenDragon said :

After a suitable period of hand wringing and various other gestures of concern, this, and other such studies will be used as another excuse to increase parking fees, introduce parking fees where they do not yet apply, and reduce parking spaces – all in order to “encourage” car-driving recalcitrants to use more sustainable forms of transport. In the meantime, the elected officials, and their senior non-elected courtiers, will continue to enjoy their publicly funded cars and privileged parking spaces.

Bingo.

davo101 said :

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.

Well that virtually guarantees we’re going to get the bloody thing then.

You vote out the greens at election time, and still end up with the greens holding the balance of power, you’re stuffed.

Alice down the rabbit hole stuff, but with a Rat instead of a rabbit.

After a suitable period of hand wringing and various other gestures of concern, this, and other such studies will be used as another excuse to increase parking fees, introduce parking fees where they do not yet apply, and reduce parking spaces – all in order to “encourage” car-driving recalcitrants to use more sustainable forms of transport. In the meantime, the elected officials, and their senior non-elected courtiers, will continue to enjoy their publicly funded cars and privileged parking spaces.

Antagonist said :

Rollersk8r said :

davo101 said :

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.

Strongly agree!

Shane obviously did not read that part: “Certainly we need to get the balance right and put more effort into public transport, Mr Rattenbury said. “That’s why I’m very pleased that as a result of the Greens-Labor parliamentary agreement we are moving towards developing light rail in the ACT. Nice one, Shane 🙂

So a major study is conducted into transport studies, and our minister for transport doesn’t read it. But makes public comment on it anyway.

I don’t think Shane Rattenbury hasn’t dropped his Greenpeace work ethic at all. A worry considering the importance of his portfolios.

It’s worth reading the two pages on Canberra in the report (pp. 25-26). It’s a comprehensive fail by the Labor Government. Mees concludes “Canberra needs to replace its current transport policies with an approach based on the experience of cities where public transport has succeeded, not those where it has failed”. But is this a realistic proposal?

http://mams.rmit.edu.au/ov14prh13lps1.pdf

Why not give light rail to those who have waited the longest, ie Woden / Belconnen and then Tuggers.

No wonder residents outside the inner north voted like they did in the last election.

Rollersk8r said :

davo101 said :

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.

Strongly agree!

Shane obviously did not read that part: “Certainly we need to get the balance right and put more effort into public transport, Mr Rattenbury said. “That’s why I’m very pleased that as a result of the Greens-Labor parliamentary agreement we are moving towards developing light rail in the ACT. Nice one, Shane 🙂

The author of the study sums it up nicely right here: “But the bottom line in terms of service frequency, connections, speed and directness of service… then that’s generally got worse in the last few years.”

davo101 said :

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.

Strongly agree!

p. 25 if you want to read the original. My favourite bit:

Current plans to replace one of the ‘frequent’ services with a light rail line do not change the fundamentally flawed nature of planning a public transport system that offers a real choice to only a minority of the population. Rather, it confirms that Canberra’s light rail scheme runs the risk of replicating the poor performance of some US light rail systems and Sydney’s single line.