Rock Eisteddfod winner's political fight

Bonfire, it was in the freaking article. If you can’t be bothered to read it, then maybe you need to return to school for some reading comprehension exercises. I’ll even re-quote it:

Calwell’s dance teacher, Cheryl Diggins, told the Australian pretty much what Mr Chisholm told the Canberra Times and added that because the school was concerned some parents might be upset by the show, an explanatory was sent home with all the performers but that they “didn’t get one withdrawal or complaint”.

nyssa76 if you knew of this, why wait until now to provide that info ?

in terms of this debate it would have been useful.

Mr Shab the teacher’s didn’t dispose of anything.

It was a courtesy letter home to parents and if they objected then the teachers would have either 1) looked at something new with the students or 2) excluded that student.

The parents didn’t complain and it was their children performing. So why should anyone else?

In the ideal “Bonfire Politics-Free High School”, what’d be left on the sylabus? History’s out, English would be pretty thorougly thinned out too, ditto biology.

In fact, you’re probably left with Maths, Physics, Woodwork and Metalwork.

So this is what it breaks down to:

school.inappropriate.venue.for.politics

why?

Um, did I mention that obviously parodistic tunes (which basically applies to all of TISM) would be excluded? Cause if I didn’t … well, I do now.

Incidentally, I’m pretty sure a few rock esteidford pieces have quite happily used “Another Brick in the Wall Part II” – presumably you’d also be against that, since the education system should not be endorsing either bad grammar (“We don’t need no education” should be “We don’t need any education”, surely), nor a questioning of the benefits and ideology of the education system itself.

Do I think Rock Esteidfords are kinda silly? Yeah, pretty much, but that’s how I feel about most modern dance. Boil complex ideas down to simple slogans and you’re likely to come out sounding either rabidly left wing or fascist – it’s the nature of the beast to avoid any degree of the subtlety required to operate in the real world. Screaming “IA laws bad” or “Kill the Jews” is a whole lot easier than thinking…

Besides which, you seem to be ignoring that these are teenagers we’re talking about. Questioning authority figures of any kind seems to be practically obligatory at that age – so in some ways, Mr. Andrews should feel gleeful that someone thinks he’s got a level of authority worth attacking.

Ahh – forgot “Defecate…”. From the same album, no less.

And my arguement shall be

politics.enters.everything.if.you.look.for.it

and

teachers.disposed.their.duty.by.asking.the.parents.

You can’t stop kids having an opinion. It will probably be immature and quite possibly wrong-headed, but they’re kids. They can form a more valid opinion with experience and learning; but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to express their opinions in the meantime.

I made no aspersions on your politics bonfire. I know politics is more complicated than left vs. right. You seem to be the one who bandies about terms like “lefty-pinko”.

its highly amusing reading the conclusions some people jump to.

im neither left nor right nor centrist.

if i was to describe myself as anything, it woudl be a hayekian conservative with a strong streak of jeffersonian cynicism.

however, because i oppose kids performing political agenda pushing mimes, im somehow one of the howard govts fellow travellers?

theres plenty of demands for proof floating around here – show me one where i’ve said i am pro the new ir legislation ?

thats not even the topic de jeure ive been railing against here.

school.inappropriate.venue.for.politics

teachers.should.know.better.

no, instead theres the usual softhead mud throwing, misquoting and dissembling.

and as your quoting tism, they did a right wing tune you can dance to called ‘defecate on my face’

yes it is!

no it isn’t!

yes it is!

no it isn’t!

….yawn…

As usual, bonfire takes one and one and get twelve. In this case, he sees kids performing a crappy dance number about an issue we are deluged in the media with; and sees a vast left-wing conspiracy of indoctrinating the youth; turning them into “pinkoes” and (his favourite) “softheads”.

Bonfire – who shall be the arbiter of where we draw the line on what is “political”. Any RE piece is pretty much going to have to be some angle on a topic. You can’t dissect an issue considering the viewpoints of all sides of politics and culture during a three minute pop song.

While we’re on it – what would be an appropriate topic? That kids shouldn’t eat junk food (brainwashing the kids! Goddamn nutrition facists!) that kids should have the freedom of choice to take up smoking (the tobacco lobby is brainwashing the kids!) that we should remove speed cameras (what about road safety!). I seem to recall those are some of your favourite rants. All can be construed as political.

The kids voted on the topic, the parents were asked if they were okay with the topic and no-one saw the damn performance anyway (save the above).

The whole thing is a beat up for Mr Andrews to get his mug on TV and for bonfire, Ackermann and their ilk to feel righteously indignant about.

Bonfire loves to carp about the curtailment of his freedoms (to smoke, speed and poke fun at fat people), but seems oddly indignant about the freedoms of others.

Simto – I suggest “Ballad of the Semetic Nazi” by TISM. It’s got a swingin’ rhythm, and its only about 30 seconds long.

they are mere children with unformed minds and ripe for manipulation by bitter petty lefty pinko teachers.

Again, you don’t know this. I know the teachers involved and again, they would never do this.

Talk about a broken record….look at yourself.

The students were SUPERVISED. They were not indoctrinated.

Has anyone actually seen the RE piece by Calwell in here? (Besides me).

I’ll even chuck in your favourite canard “The Holocaust – just a holiday camp for the Jews, really”. If you can find a song about that that I can dance to, go for it.

Meanwhile, I’ll bop happily along to “There is Power in a Union” (trad, arranged B.Bragg), “Blue Sky Mine” (Midnight Oil) and “North Sea Bubble” (B.Bragg). All thoroughly dancable tracks.

Well, anything like “AWA’s are fabulous, baby”. Or “Freedom of Speech is overrated”.

define right wing

The teachers obviously thought it might be questionable, so they sent a note home to parents asking them whether there were any problems.

No parents reported any problems. So, since the parents don’t have any problem with how their kids are educated, why do you?

And still waiting for a half-decent right-wing song to dance to, Bonfire…

please can someone lift areamans tone arm and place the neeedle past this part of his broken record.

did i say teachers forced them ? no- i have posited that its inappropriate to use school performances to promote politics of any shade (although judging from the softheads arguing the pro case here, lefty pinko politics is ok) and that it was inappropriate for the teachers to allow it.

i know thats a terribly complex argument to digest, i wish i could make it simpler for you, but riotact doesnt have a crayon font.

bonfire, you still can’t prove (or even make a logical argument showing) that the teachers had anything to do with choosing the theme. All the performers and students say that the students chose the theme, so I’m going to believe them over a right wing nut on the internet who couldn’t argue his way out of a fucking wet paper bag.

Again, I’ll state, it’s a rock esteidford. Name me one half-decent rock song with a right-wing agenda, and I’d be happy to put on a stupid wig and dance in a (legally permissable) place of your choosing for the length of the track (obscure ninety-minute prog-rock compositions need not apply).

Whatever you may think of the political messages intregal to Midnight Oil, Billy Bragg et. al., you can’t deny they’re pretty easy to dance to.

Besides, I can readily believe students would have picked a left-wing theme all on their ownseome. I’d be pretty sure that more students watch “The Chaser” than watch Piers Ackerman on Insiders, for example.

using children as puppets for your political agenda is just wrong.

they are mere children with unformed minds and ripe for manipulation by bitter petty lefty pinko teachers.

school is not the place for inculcating your political agenda into children.

thats what uni is for…

The Greens want to extend voting age to include these students … it’s no surprise why.

Tidying up there – selection of the message that the students are sending SHOULD BE up to the students (one of these days, I’ll re-read a post prior to sending it).

Or are you of the “children should be seen and not heard”?

How are they setting a poor example to their children? They’re letting them get involved in something that has a definate outcome, they’re encouraging them to work together to produce results, they’re training them in skills including choreography, lighting, set-building and costume design.

That’s what the teachers are involved in. Beyond that, selection of the message that the students want to say shouldn’t be up to the students. Everybody (even you, Bonfire), has a right to say whatever they want to say, however stupid or ill-informed. That’s a pretty positive message, I would have thought.

and their teachers SHOULD know better.

they are setting a poor example for children.

Oh, and my high school was no different when it participated in RE. It was an excuse used by a number of students to avoid going to class. They also chose sensationalist themes that they didn’t really know much about.

It’s a symptom of the juvenile mind that the themes tend to float around sensationalised issues, rather than raising awareness of something that they could actually do something about.

thats right they were my words… you asked who else is going to organise the RE apart from teachers and I said exactly that, no one else would beacause no one else cares…..

I don’t think my “view” of what goes on in high school has dramatically different to what occurs now.

I may have some negative views of high school which is primarily based on my own experiences and the experiences shared by others whilst at uni and others in the community and do I admire the efforts of teachers and recognise that it is not always so easy for them and it is a good thing that the particpants in the RE find passion about something… but I still believe that Calwell High wasted their opportunity to present something that affect youth today and instead went for todays public debate that *may* affect them in the comming years when they are no longer youths….

Johnboy Oh Contraire!

Bonfire introduced the Nazi’s I merely called his silly claim that because they were called socialist they were left.

see here “im thinking of staging a rock eistedfodd where the kids march around in skinhead uniforms denying the holocauset took place.

one kid will portray david irving.”

My point being Godwin’s law would of been appropriate about a dozen posts from the top.

Hang on, Roland, are you saying we need to actually know anything before being outraged?

No, no, no, that’s not the bonfire way! Make wild assertions! Claim that other people are concentrating on grammar rather than on the essentials of what you said, and ignore any comments that point out flaws in your content!

The world’s so much simpler when you’re the only person who could possibly ever be right in the entire world. Although it is very annoying that the othe peons think that they have a right to a point of view too…

Did anyone see the Calwell High piece?

When I was at Calwell the RE theme was discussed with the students and several topics were offerred. The students voted on the topic they would like to perform.

No one else would because no one else cares…..

Your words snahon not mine.

Your “view” into what you did at high school is very different to what goes on in another high school (or schools) some 5-10years later.

if you actually read my comments i say “… because very few outside of teachers and students care that much”

of course I am not going to volunteer…. I have far more pressing matters to attend like my life…which btw does not include TV…

As for community spirit…. sorry but there ain’t much of that anywhere anytime…..

Whilst the RE is an event that I am sure the school body gains great satisfaction from, the wider community couldn’t give a rats about….thinking of which if I recall, even the majority students couldn’t give a rats….

As for whether or not the students themselves find the new IR laws a relevant “student issue” to harp on about I guess is up to them but if *that* is one of the biggest issues concerning these youths then they certainly wasted an opportunity to actually highlight a non wide known youth issue and I feel sorry for the teachers who didn’t take charge and inform the students that the new IR laws already gets enough public awareness without their piece and they might have been more productive demonstrating a different youth issue that doesn’t get so much publicity.

I think that many of the arguments put forward during this discussion are more around trying to uncover exactly what it is the RE is about, and how much influence the teachers have. My interest is in what kids get out of it – if some dumb ones learn to try a bit harder then that’s a good thing. What I question is the level to which all ideas get heard, or whether it simply becomes the plaything of the popular hippy view that many teenagers have.

Parents, friends, school reps etc.

Of course the majority of Canberrans wouldn’t attend – it clashes with the TV.

But to say that noone cares is a fallacy.

I’ve seen the inspiration it can bring to students and it is a good thing. Kids who felt they were “dumb” perform and it boosts their self esteem.

Just because people don’t agree with what Calwell High put forward this year, doesn’t mean that they should bag out RE as nothing.

It does some good things and it is a shame that the ignorant still choose to purport their mantra of “inappropriate”.

“As for no one else cares, you have no clue.”

Now hang on a tick… how many people turned up to watch the performance? A few hundred or even a couple ofo thousand? There are over 300,000 people living in Canberra. Therefore if we do some maths and work out how many people took the time to attend (let’s be really generous and say 3000, including participants) and divide that by the number of people who could have attended (and we aren’t even including Queanbeyan here), we get a percentage attendance of about 1%. Thus, 99% of people didn’t care. I’m not trying to be disparaging here, but we should try to stick to reality at least a little bit.

I’m interested in this “all teachers are insinuating left wing ideology into kiddies”. Which is weird, because George Orwell is on the sylabus. And not the early, left-wing leaning George. Nope, it’s definately the later, anti-socialist-dictatorship, “Animal Farm”, “1984” era George.

As for Rock Esteidford – well, as soon as you can find me a decent rock song that espouses a right-wing ideology, you’ll probably find someone willing to chuck on the stupid wigs and boogie on down to it.

Sorry folks, Tempestas has triggered Godwin’s Law and hereby loses the argument.

Shame. I think the current efforts to remove politics from the sphere of ordinary people are a travesty.

Ahh the Nazi party being called Socialist meant they were left does it. Is that like “Work Choices” giving you choice, or the US “Patriot Act” supporting patriotism. The kiddies thought the’d dabble their hand in a political view, in a town with 40% of employees working for government, having views is hardly surprising.

Bonfire when you have an argument, that is logically valid and based on sound premises feel free to share, perhaps some others might care to assist you with ensuring its complete.

Who cares if the kiddies have a political view, by your own Piers like arguments the sooner they get it out of their system the sooner they become myopic bigots. Or are you worried that some might in fact think that working together is better than divide and conquer.

Why are you convinced that anyone who doesn’t like what you say has some totalising world view that needs to be imposed.

If performance is not a place to be political then we better “rewrite every poem, every book that ever was. Eliminate incompetents and those who break the laws”

Perhaps you’d like to vet all the text-books and the newspapers too, just to make sure that there are no views that you dislike.

Perhaps students should only be allowed to participate in sport and performance and politics should be the sole province of you and yours.

PS If you back Kevin Andrews you take his side. I suspect that just like him as there is little evidence to back up these IR “reforms” as being good for the economy you need to turn your hate onto those whose views you don’t like.

BTW you never lose an argument because you are so dogmatic you can’t even accept the possibility of being wrong. Just so you understand – you are always right because what you say is meaningless.

snahon, when a school participates ALL staff assist, no matter how small.

It’s called community spirit – something students should see and be encouraged to follow.

Teachers also do it because the benefits far outweigh the negatives. The students are happy and love performing.

You still haven’t answered my question: Are you going to volunteer?

As for no one else cares, you have no clue. Students participate in sporting events for their schools or debates or RE’s because their teachers DO CARE, because their teachers take the time out to assist students and because students need to feel that they are doing something positive, even if they aren’t doing well academically.

As for adult supervision, RE is run THROUGH schools meaning that if a school participates a teacher has a duty of care to those students participating. As areaman has already stated, students under 18 (and even those over 18 for safety reasons) can’t be in a school alone on the weekends or after school without supervision.

I agree, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to make the, however much ignored, point of view.

adult supervision is different to adult participation – you’ve lost my point. My point is still valid. very few would want to coordinate a RE because very few outside of teachers and students care that much about ensuring that students get “The grand opportunity” to voice an opinion….

to be fair snahon, they’re still all under 18 an no one’s going to let them work at school on weekends and at nights without an adult there.

you’ve hit the nail on the head nyssa 🙂

No one else would because no one else cares…..

if the students can’t organise one performance by themselves then how on earth are they in a position to voice an educated ‘lived in the real world’ opinion

Better that than a orgy with the teachers, right bonfire?

snahon, who else will do the RE if the teachers don’t? Are you going to volunteer? Just make sure you’ve have a police check, can’t work with kids without one.

Just remember that RE takes up most weekends, after school and holidays for both students and teachers. That is, if you want to do a good job.

You do realise that it’s a high school competition, so most of the performaers would be 14-16. Are they not supposed to have political opinions or just not supposed to express them?

actually, ive changed my mind.

yes it is a fact – the performance was inapproprate.

it is indisputably the case that politics in childrens performances is inappropriate.

i’ll plant my flag on this one you fool.

Aren’t we all forgeting that the RE is about students voicing their opinions… no one actually said we have to listen to them…. or value their insights or watch their show (directed by teachers… conflict of interest?).

As for teachers teaching….. I sooo hope that the teachers today are actually doing something productive cause reflecting back on my high school, I would say it was more like baby sitting.

OK bonfire, rewrite this, changing only “an errant apostrophe” so that it makes no claim of fact, but still makes sense (or at least as much as it ever did):

i dont knwo the kids or the teachers involved, and i dont care if you have had an orgy with the teachers concerned, the fact remains – the performance was inappropriate.

ive never stated my aphorisms as facts – unlike the dullards who think an errant apostrophe proves their softhead case.

and your stunningly novel contribution to this debate caf was…

sfa

You didn’t make an _argument_ that the rock eisteddfod is an inappropriate venue for political protest, you made an unsupported assertion.

Others called you on that. Tough.

True but it might shut bonfire up for a while.

Except that the principal of Calwell doesn’t get to decide what the RE theme is.

bonfire, why don’t you write to the principal of Calwell High and state your “disgust” as well as the RE people.

Perhaps they might listen to you and make Calwell do a “homage to John Howard” next year, promoting all of Howard’s greatness.

bonfire, it’s pretty obvious that I’m not going to change your opinion, nor you mine. I have however managed to show the others here that you’re full of shit, which is good enough for me.

Not sure about the standardized testing, or even what that means in this day and age. I’d be careful about bagging NSW too much, though – in undergrad uni I found the NSW students were vastly better prepared for long exam situations than the ACT students.

VYBerlinaV8, NSW, with very standardised curriculum, comes near the bottom of standardised testing don’t they? The ACT, with school based curriculum, is generally near the top. There might be a connection there.

Yes, your bum does look big in that.

areman – id prefer to focus on the issue rather than an errant apostrophe.

you wont win your battle using these tactics. while you toil over documents looking for your opponents minor slips, he has triumphed and moved on.

its a blog, not a court of law.

I think that there will always be an element of teaching what to think. It’s ok to instruct what the law of the land is (eg don’t murder people), but it’s probably a better outcome if the child thinks it’s a bad idea anyway. Even though the approach may be to teach how to think, what to think will be an inevitable side effect.

VY, I’m too busy trying to “decipher” the new ACT curriculum – which is a joke and outcomes based – to look at NSW.

At least their curriculum has curriculum specific people within NSWDET to talk to whereas they dropped them here in the ACT. Teachers could call and ask for assistance or for locations of good resources etc.

My last comment was directed to Nyssa…

Thanks for that. What’s your feeling on the Blue Book type approach of the NSW system?

So what are you saying? Teachers don’t teach? I all seriousness, if teachers weren’t instructing children on what to think, I’d say that’s a fairly serious gap in their education.

I’m saying that a high school teacher’s job description isn’t simply a definition of the word teach copied out of the dictionary, any more than a nurse’s job is to do every single thing covered under nurse and nothing else.

I also saying I always though teachers were supposed to teach kids how to think not what to think.

VY, most “lesson plans” are dependant on the subject and the school. Most schools have a “scope and sequence” which lays out what is to be taught each week – which is designed by the facilty as a whole (which also stops any political persuasions creeping in as not all teachers “hate” John Howard or “like” Kim Beazley).

I’m teaching Civics and Citizenship in Term 4. I will have to explain the political system and I know my students will ask me about my own thoughts – to which I will tell them (as I have before) that what I think is not important in this course. I will present all arguments and let them decide – which is what I am meant to do (bonfire).

Do these jeans make my bum look fact?

Ok bonfire, I’ll quote you in full (typos and all):

i dont knwo the kids or the teachers involved, and i dont care if you have had an orgy with the teachers concerned, the fact remains – the performance was inappropriate.

NO, your opinion is that it was inappropriate, it’s not a fact.

you then go on to say:

ah one of those specific challenges to ‘prove’ something when in fact ive merely stated an opinion

where you claim you (amusingly as a fact) never said you were giving anything apart from an opinion where as in fact you had claimed you were giving a fact in the first line I quoted here.

Maybe you should just stay away from the word fact in future as I don’t think it means what you think it does.

Nyssa – a quick question: Although the curriculum is defined, are the lesson plans? Does the individual teacher (who doesn’t teach) come up with them? How does the teacher (who doesn’t teach) ensure their own views do not creep into the lesson plans?

Cheers!

no, the hitler youth are a perfect example of not letting politics near children.

the left are never tolerant. they actively attack anything not in accordance with their world view. musolini and the nazi’s were socialists as well. which makes the left accusation of fascism pretty funny – both branches from the same tree.

but we digress.

by somehow opposing teachers allowing an inappropriate theme im a flunky of andrews ?

where did i ever say i supported this legislation ?

oh thats right – its all about the topic that the kids were miming about. anti-ir is ok.

your zeal to attack howard blinds you to the argument i made which is that the rock eisteddfod is an inappropriate venue for political protest.

the fact that the teachers thought it was ok is even worse.

my opposition to rock eisteddfods is that they are intellectually lazy. miming to recorded music ? why not get the kids to write a play or music of their own ?

Leave the accelerants in the Time Out room.

I want the teachers to teach the kids how to use accelerants when the light fires.

Presenting societal views about a range of issues is, in part, designed to encourage kids to think in a more constructive, open way. Which is telling them what to think!

bonfire you “choose” to degrade all teachers by lumping them with the ones you didn’t like at school.

Or am I “misquoting” you?

“Boiler makers don’t simply make boilers, nurses don’t nurse…”

So what are you saying? Teachers don’t teach? I all seriousness, if teachers weren’t instructing children on what to think, I’d say that’s a fairly serious gap in their education.

I think school kids should be able to dance around to any theme they want … as long as the birds are hot!

“Boiler makers don’t simply make boilers, nurses don’t nurse…”

bonfire you said students don’t think for themselves and that their teachers basically had an “in” on it. Ergo, it is similar to brainwashing.

Tempestas, don’t bother, he’s in a world of his own.

snahon, it’s called PUBLIC policy. I know many schools aka the good ones, who have had a problem and the bad ones who haven’t.

Don’t “assume” because it’s on the site that it is a major problem. The Dept demands that there is a policy and it is easily accessible – internet, at the front office etc for parents to read.

VYBerlinaV8, that’s a pretty weak argument. Firstly because that definition gives examples of teaching how to think not what to think, but more importantly because that’s not the definition of what school teachers do. Boiler makers don’t simply make boilers, nurses don’t nurse in all senses of the word (except for wet nurses), most sailors wouldn’t be sailing a sail boat, and waiters aren’t paid to wait. I think it was always pretty obvious that the definition of the root work of a job title, wasn’t necessarily going to be a duty statement, and it isn’t for teachers.

I don’t have a problem with kiddies dancing in funny costumes to portray something that has political relevance. Providing the statement it makes is fair and balanced.

Which I doubt it would be. Because they would have been influenced to the Johnny haters view.

The charm of bonfire has seduced me.

Bloody hell, some students, yes students, make IR and its dog eat dog world the theme of their Rock eisteddfod performance and Kevin Andrews and his loyal flunkies aka Bonfire, get all their knickers in knots.

So teenagers are not allowed to have views on anything the government believes they shouldn’t

If they have views then it must be the fault of the teachers

Proper themes (like holocaust denial) always get ignored.

So Bonfire, I imagine you think that the Hitler youth was an acceptable way of young people to demonstrate their beliefs. Perhaps the RE should be replaced with a nice reading from Lord of the Flies followed by frenzied disembowling of any kid who looks a bit different.

I’m sure that would make you happier, or perhaps a KKK meeting instead. Its because of the “Pinko” teachers that the rest of us are tolerant enough to allow you to continue to breath.

Bonfire said: i detest eistedfodds. this is simply another reason they should be discouraged.

Yep, anything Bonfire detests should be discouraged. What a small minded little ferret you are bonfire.

Obviously all schools would have a similar policy… der…. but for Melba High to feel the need to publicize it would suggest to me that they actually have those problems and feel the need to make it known exactly what their policy is (presumable to scare those fully politically aware students into not doing it)…. hence my aversion for that school…

btw thanks Thumper…. supports my position perfectly……. ahh stoned students brings me back to when i was a student and all those dead beats whacked out of their brains… hmm wonder where they are now …

It’s not the brainwashing that concerns me, it’s the bizarre experiments with anal probes in the Time Out room that gives ma cause for concern. I used to live in Calwell, and I could hear the screams (of the teachers) all way from my house.

Other than that, it’s a really good school.

nyssa76:

I’d also like to know what proof you have re: teachers brainwashing students at Calwell High because even if it is your opinion only, it’s a very naive one.”

Yet again misquoting and worse this time – something i never said being attributed to me.

“Did anyone mention Calwell’s set for last year?”

No. Nobody did. Can you please fill us all in?

Time out room? What a load of crap; whatever happened to caning the little fuckers when they play up?

snahon, all Govt schools have a policy like that one. Not all put it on their websites.

snahon, RE is not the only thing at Calwell High.

It is just the one thing that they have been given press over.

There are some great programs there and great kids.

Obviously you need to look at the Non-Govt system (but even then that might not be “right” for you or yours) because your “opinion” is indicating a bit of snobbery.

“Hmmm, I wonder if the students signed a contract at the commencement of participating in RE that if they were more then 2 minutes late to training they would be fired ?

At least the teachers could feel as though they had some *real* power for once……

“Hmmm, I wonder if the students signed a contract at the commencement of participating in RE that if they were more then 2 minutes late to training they would be fired ?

At least the teachers could feel as though they had some *real* power for once……”

The contracts are signed as a committment to the RE. Students are expected to be working on it outside of school hours – see ACT Dept of Education re: “excursions” outside school hours for further clarification.

It is also a permission form for parents.

When will people stop making f*cked up insinuations about things they don’t know about???????

bonfire, hate to break it to you but you’re wrong on this one. Did anyone mention Calwell’s set for last year?

I’d also like to know what proof you have re: teachers brainwashing students at Calwell High because even if it is your opinion only, it’s a very naive one.

areaman i know that people who disagree with you must always be wrong, but in this instance i think youve blown a gasket.

by selectively quoting three words from a post where i said ‘the fact remains it was inappropriate’ you use typical softhead debating tactics.

opinions dont require proof.

statements such as ‘smoking kills’ require proof.

you can try and shout me down, much like teachers jackboot over wrong thinking students, but if youre going to attack my inconsistent logic, you really shouldnt use inconsistent logic (although that word and you are rarely acquainted) yourself.

Is the Time Out room where they practice for their eisteddfod performance?

I was most impressed by the use of the Time Out room. Wow, that’s going to stop them from smoking!

But again, smoking would banned on health grounds, on on political grounds.

ah one of those specific challenges to ‘prove’ something when in fact ive merely stated an opinion.

Bullshit, you were talking as though your assertions were indisputable, when in fact they were baseless opinions and in my opinion they were full of shit. You even said “the fact remains” in a previous comment on this post proving that you were mislabelling your opinions as facts. If you’re just voicing an opinion don’t talk about facts without having any, actually looking at your previous post maybe you just shouldn’t post at all.

Pretty sad that Melba High actually have a policy for that…… I would have guess that it was formed as a result of what its student body was up to….

Well I guess I can add that school to the list of schools not to send my kids (if it is still in existence when are old enough….)

Hmmm, let’s start with the word ‘teacher’ itself. In my humble and uneducated opinion, the word ‘teacher’ is probably linked to ‘teach’. ‘Teach’ can be defined as:
teach ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tch)
v. taught, (tôt) teach·ing, teach·es
v. tr.
1. To impart knowledge or skill to: teaches children.
2. To provide knowledge of; instruct in: teaches French.
3. To condition to a certain action or frame of mind: teaching youngsters to be self-reliant.
4. To cause to learn by example or experience: an accident that taught me a valuable lesson.
5. To advocate or preach: teaches racial and religious tolerance.
6. To carry on instruction on a regular basis in: taught high school for many years.

Let’s look especially at points 3 and 5. Now, re-read your own comment above about kids being told what to think by their teachers.

Hmmm, I wonder if the students signed a contract at the commencement of participating in RE that if they were more then 2 minutes late to training they would be fired ?

At least the teachers could feel as though they had some *real* power for once……

Being told what you can and can’t think does not promote strong mental growth.

See my response to bonfire; Where’s the proof that (or even any evidence that) the kids were told what to think by their teachers?

ah one of those specific challenges to ‘prove’ something when in fact ive merely stated an opinion.

i do like the pro smoking idea. what an excellent performance that would be. what about a celebration of autralian lager ? or even a performance to the holy weed ganja ?

not at melba high though, according to:

http://www.melbahs.act.edu.au/htm_docs/mhsl1polprac.htm

“Using tobacco, drugs or alcohol at school or while travelling to and from school

1. Tobacco

the tobacco products will be confiscated;
the parents informed;
the student given detention involving community service;
counselling will be offered.
2. Alcohol

the student will be assigned to the Time Out room and the parents contacted to collect the student immediately
the student is suspected from school for an appropriate period;
the student is banned from future school functions for a set period;
the student will be required to make a commitment that they will not repeat this behaviour before returning to school;
counselling will be offered.
3. Prohibited Drugs

the student will be assigned to the Time Out Room and the parent contacted to collect the student immediately;
the legal authorities will be contacted.
the student will be suspended for a period up to five days during which time the student’s continued enrolment at the school would be discussed with the parents. “”

“Personally, I feel this is stunting the childrens’ mental growth.”

Notice the words ‘personally’ and ‘I feel’? Being told what you can and can’t think does not promote strong mental growth. Except for you, and I’ll be happy to tell you what to think.

Whether protesting is detrimental to your health depends on where you live.

Personally, I feel this is stunting the childrens’ mental growth.

Again, back that up. There is heaps of scientific evidence that smoking is bad for your health, where is your evidence that protesting the government has similarly detrimental?

Actually, this has given me an idea. How about I put on a purple wig, wear an eyepatch and get some flouro yellow pants, then dance around in Garema place while wailing? That way the public will know how I feel about the lack of police attendance at crimes, and I’ll feel better because I will have expressed myself.

Sure… if that’s what works for you why not. This RE works for the kids of Calwell, it’s not in bad taste, and it’s not harmful, so why not… it works for them. If the kids of Radford had wanted to do an anti-union perfomance, I’d support their right to. I wouldn’t get as much joy out of it, but that’s irrelevant as it’s how it effects me rather than how it effect them.

The most obvious example is the right of a human to choose to smoke. No teacher is going to be associated with that topic for an event that is supposed to be about ‘no smoking’. Personally, I feel this is stunting the childrens’ mental growth.

i used the example of holocaust denial, but i coudl easily provide several other topics that would be banned by the people who are claiming in this debate to support political discussion.

Prove it.

Give me one sourced example where a teacher has overridden the choices of the students on the grounds of their personal politics in anything… anything at all? Now taste is a different matter,, but you’re claiming it’s about politics, and the teachers politics in particular.

You’re always one for making fucking imbecilic claims bonfire, but when asked to back them up with anything apart from more of your own opinions you strangley silent.

Actually, this has given me an idea. How about I put on a purple wig, wear an eyepatch and get some flouro yellow pants, then dance around in Garema place while wailing? That way the public will know how I feel about the lack of police attendance at crimes, and I’ll feel better because I will have expressed myself.

These things tend to revolve around popular views anyway. I wonder what would happen if a schoold wanted to do a pro-smoking theme? Or perhaps pro-drugs (freeeeeeeeeeeeedom within)? Or perhaps shoot the suicide bomber before he blows you up? What about how evil oil companies are?? What about how we should kill all politicians? Maybe they could do a thing on how to choose which unborn babies sop early termination? It is a bit silly to assume that dancing around like a monkey in a pretty coloured dress (and that’s just the blokes) helps these kids to sort out their thoughts on these issues. Ever noticed how most of the kids that participate seem to have similar views on their chosen topic?

Since anyone with a decent ’employable’ skill set wouldn’t care too much about the new IR laws (ie they would easily find another job) would it be plausible that if the RE is about that group of students EXPRESSING their views, then they must be concerned about the new IR laws affecting them…

So if they were worried about it affecting them, ie entering the workforce, then they mustn’t be going onto much further education… ie get an employable skill set…

So…. maybe those students who were doing the RE spent more time studying instead of wasting it dancing around like morons, they would be in a position to go to further education and not be so worried about the new IR laws…

Glad I’m not sending my kids there when they are old enough….

I remember a great read – It was called – “Animal Farm”

my point is this:

of course only ‘approved’ political ideology will be OK’d for these performances.

anything opposing the marxist/leninists who instruct our children will be forbidden.

i used the example of holocaust denial, but i coudl easily provide several other topics that would be banned by the people who are claiming in this debate to support political discussion.

they only support it when it agrees with their ideology.

in this case, its anti-howard and thats ok by them.

of course im right, im rarely wrong. thats part of my charm.

Sorry that was Bonfires “comfort” bubble that burst – fingers not as quick as brain (to be honest brain not that quick either)

Hey Bonfire, maybe the kiddies should have made a “politically aware” performance about a MLA living in a Govvie House and bludging off the taxpayer?

I’m sure Roland would have thought that was excellent too.

I think it’s great that our children get to express themselves in an evironment where no one will judge them. Hey, if they want to prance around with finger paintings of aliens all over them, be my guest (hell, the idea probably came from watching the legislative assembly anyway).

“…the fact remains – the performance was inappropriate.” What a load of shit Bonfire – according to who? You? How many died to make you King? Please detail to me the law that says these things cant be political? Just because you cofort bubble has been burst dosn’t mean that these kids have done anything wrong.

bonfire, pettiness will get you nowhere.

The RE is about students EXPRESSING themselves.

Did you complain when they took up the plight of Ahn San Suu Kyi?

Are you saying that their teachers pushed that view too?

The students had actually studied it and asked to do it.

“twisted softhead ideology”? Where the hell did that one come from?

I don’t share my political views with students. Never have and never will.

Don’t lump me in with your twisted views of teachers based on the 12 you might have had in your life.

Where else can students express themselves if they can’t do it at a RE? You going to offer up a location?

“it does not matter that they are politically aware.”

Really? Because DEST and Minister Bishop would disagree with you. As of next year students will be tested on their knowledge of civics and citizenship – INCLUDING the political system.

Teachers will be expected to teach it to their students at a greater level than today. Hence my PD yesterday at the Legislative Assembly.

Oh but that’s right, you’re right and we’re wrong.

I wonder how long it will be before some kid feels he/she has to dress up as a suicide bomber before dancing around like a spaz and then pretending to blow them self up. More valuable social commentary there!

No venue is inappropriate for my base ball bat!

With spikes!

it does not matter that they are politically aware.

the venue was inappropriate.

naturally the greens think this is OK, because only children with unformed minds, still able to be cultivated, would think the greens policies were in anyway sensible instead of being off with the pixies.

i have endured rock eistedfodds. the only thing they are useful for is as work experience for cross dressing tranvestites miming to abba songs in tawdry gay nightclubs in sydney.

When at high school, I had the misfortune of having to watch our school’s ‘entry’, performed in front of the school assembly. Sheesh – there’s 15 minutes of my life I’ll never get back. I would almost have preferred to hear the crazy teacher carry on about how his wife ran off with his best friend, but how he still loves them both. There are times when this world is a sick, twisted place. Of course, for those young people who want to partake in such a performance, I hope they really get something out making their political statements – since that’s what things seem to have degenerated into.

Not that I’m bagging eistedfodds, you understand.

Bonfire, these kids are very politically aware. Sure, they pick up on vibes from around them (teachers, parents, friends, etc), but they are quite able to think for themselves.

Do you advocate the same right-wing, fundamentalist non-thinking that goes on within, say, Pentecostal churches? Get a life, Bonfire and give these young people the credit of having a brain, and allow them to express their concern over social injustices.

Bonfire, it’s obvious you’ve never watched a rock esteidford in your life.

Having watched the telecast of one or two (largely because, well, they’re freaking hilarious), all the dance performances involve “socially conscious” messages set to pop music. The most tastless, in recent memory, was a holocaust performance set to Michael Jackson’s “They Don’t Care about Us”. Which did indeed include concentration camp victims miming getting shot.

There’s good choroegraphy and production values in these, and they should definately be praised. But the attempts to engage in complex political ideas are deeply embarassing.

I think live performance is the correct context for political statements and the exploration of political ideas.

I’m sorry for bonfire that he needs to be so aggressive in response to other people’s
views.

That is much more of a social problem than young people expressing political ideas.

The latent violence implied by the use of language such as rabid lefty pinkos highlights the issue.

I think Bart Simpson said it best:
“In my weaker moments I almost pity them. But then I remind myself: they’re trying to teach.”

Thumps, a depiction of Latham’s life would have involved far too much drinking and violence to be appropriate for school kids!

im thinking of staging a rock eistedfodd where the kids march around in skinhead uniforms denying the holocauset took place.

one kid will portray david irving.

or is that perhaps, inappropriate ?

your twisted softehad ideology blinds you to the fact that the performance was an inappropriaet venue for political statements.

regardless of whether the yooth think its ok.

teachers shoudl knwo better than that – in fact they do – but as rabid lefty pinkos they think its their duty to inculcate that ideology into their charges. and that justifys this poor behaviour in their minds.

i dont knwo the kids or the teachers involved, and i dont care if you have had an orgy with the teachers concerned, the fact remains – the performance was inappropriate.

bonfire, I spent a lot of time with those senior students, teaching them across 3 KLAs.

They’re not stupid. They understand quite a lot.

I also know Cheryl Diggins and John Chisholm. Neither would ever push their political ideology on students.

My view is based on knowing the people involved. Yours is based on speculation.

“inappropriate – but typical of teachers” – wtf? You cannot base your own experience of your teachers on others.

I had shit teachers and good teachers in school. I don’t blame all teachers because of one or two for things. I try to emulate the good ones and try to be a good teacher myself.

Teaching is not about politics. However, it is about assisting students in seeing both sides and making their own decisions, be it reading Romeo and Juliet or the AWAs.

So what are you saying Bonfire? That if the kids came up with this – and the publicly available information suggests that they did – the teachers should have stepped in to stop it? You can’t honestly be suggesting that they should have sought to impose a value system on the kids, because you’ve already said that its inappropriate for the teachers to impose a value system on the kids … or should secondary school kids just waft through their teenage years in a mist of feel-good warm and fuzzy comfort – never challenged, never provoked to critically analyse the issues that will directly effect them?

yes nyssa76 but do you consider that the view that you think is correct, may not in fact be correct? and may in fact be wrong ? and that soem of the kids in the performance may not have agreed with the politics their teachers were encouraging ?

inappropriate – but typical of teachers.

Having taught at Calwell High when they won the RE for their Burmese set, I know that the kids are well informed and no it wasn’t the teachers who “put them up to this”.

The kids work their arses off for the RE and congratulations to them. Some of my old students would have been dancing this year.

Mr. Andrews is an idiot. He has no clue as to what teenagers think or understand about issues affecting Australians today.

Well done Calwell High!!!!

As winner of the ‘red ragger’ award at my high school valedictory dinner (true), i found all my teachers to be lefty pinko fellow travellers taking their orders from beijing on shortwave radios.

ive mellowed since then.

however, a ‘rock eisteddfod’ is an inappropriate venue for the agenda that teachers to foist upon their pupils.

i detest eistedfodds. this is simply another reason they should be discouraged.

I saw this too and couldn’t help thinking how demeaning and patronising it was for Andrews accuse kids at the secondary level of being incapable of possessing the political awareness or motivation to come up with this sort of thing. I would have thought that – as a demographic – secondary school kids would be amongst the most effected by new the IR laws so it would make sense.

Remember too that this was a competition and that performances would have been developed, tailored and targeted to appeal to a particular audience – one no doubt loaded with left leaning, pinko sympathisers – it was probably more a case of find out what people like and give ‘em heaps of it.