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Sex scandal at ADFA

By johnboy 6 April 2011 59

Ten news last night had a rare scoop with a sleazy sex scandal at ADFA.

Basically “Kate” had a booty call relationship going with another cadet who was allegedly stupid and grotty enough to webcam it to six other cadets who then further distributed the scenes.

It appears Kate’s going to face some disciplinary action for the fraternisation.

But hopefully all the idiot lads (and possibly ladies) involved who can’t hide the evidence can be booted out before too much has been spent on their training. To serve as a warning to current and future cadets that if they’re unable to conduct themselves in a manner becoming an officer they should at least make sure they don’t get caught.

[Note to news editors, RMC Duntroon is not ADFA]

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Sex scandal at ADFA
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tanner 10:27 pm 01 Aug 11

Felix the Cat said :

The news report on the radio I heard earlier said something along the lines of she reported the incident to ADFA superiors who didn’t deem it worthy enough for investigation so I guess she didn’t have much choice then to go to the media .

Please don’t tell me you actually believe the news. ADFA indeed deemed it worthy, and even passed it onto the ADF Investigative Service (ADFIS) for investigation. They even deemed it too important for themselves and passed it up to the Australian Federal Police (AFP). It was the AFP who didn’t deem it important enough for charges.

btw what happened to the court case? It all seems to have gone very quiet all of a sudden. Or was the media only interested in unsubstantiated rumour and not the real courtcase/truth? On 2nd thoughts, I already know that answer.

Sleaz274 2:17 pm 08 Jul 11

Apologies for resurrecting but seeing as this has now caused no less than 6 inquiries, forced the government to hire a team of lawyers asking for other defence members to step forward, an entire examination of sexism and the role of women within the defence force and the sacking (in time) of a senior navy officer I thought it relevant to update…

Word around the trenches is that –
The young lady involved is set to retire for life on a sizeable payout
The young grub involved looks set to continue in the ADF due to what I’ll discreetly call operational influence and;
The instigator of the skype broadcast looks set for discharge

Not 5:59 pm 11 Apr 11

*yawn* What is the scandal? Who gives a shyza?

Skidbladnir 1:59 pm 09 Apr 11

sepi said :

Um – yes she is. She should be the entire focus of the story…

Focus only on her case, and once the media stops this round of the white woman in trouble syndrome, it goes back to being just another day at ADFA until the next complainant steps forward.
Unless other women want to come out and tell their story, yore going to simply watch the girl fade back into obscurity, and then do your usual Sepi thing of screaming about how unfair the female condition is, the next time some other woman finds herself in identical circumstances.

Focus on the circumstances that made her need to go to the media and get the Minister to comment on ADFA, and you can try to minimize the number of women who find themselves similarly compromised.
Set an example of the perpetrators, and you might even see some institutional progress.

But by all means, ignore potential for systemic problems if it helps you move onto the next news story, and wait for the next opportunity to fix things.

roflmao 12:53 pm 09 Apr 11

Sleaz274 said :

“The way men talk about women in the army is horrible…”

Have you been to a pub lately? Or listened to tradies having their morning brew? Don’t think the Army is somehow magically different.

Chewy please put forward your argument why this young lady should be kicked out as well. It would be better than just your constant back pedalling now that more reasoned opinion has emerged away from the Today Tonight chattering crowd.

Skid maybe you should have presented some sort of counter argument 3 posts ago instead of just brandishing around the policy document like a metaphorical sword with which to lop off all their heads. Why not fix the policy seeing that it is obviously inappropriate and broken rather than try to “fix” the humans? The rumour is they tried that with bromide hahaha.

Two wars, civilian killings, dwindling recruitment and retention numbers, a huge budget blow out by billions, a broken procurement process and did I mention two unwinnable wars? I’m sure Houston has a lot more to worry about than if cadets in private and behind closed doors have a relationship.

Once again if anyone can articulate an argument why this young lady should be kicked out, as you all keep screaming for, then please go ahead. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

The problem isn’t just the relationship that should be dealt with, but also the problem is a breach of dignity, a breach of trust and the attack on women. If nothing is done it reinforces how this is ok, how you can film whoever you want in whatever state and distribute it. it is wrong and it happens more than people think. This type of behaviour is done knowing that it is wrong, knowing that it will have negative effects on that person. It is a malicious act and those boys need to be brought down hard.

roflmao 12:39 pm 09 Apr 11

sepi said :

#52 “Really, the woman isn’t the focus of the story here.”

Um – yes she is. She should be the entire focus of the story. Her life will never be the same again. This is not just an academic discussion of a 50 page document, this is a person who has been badly wronged.

Both by the worm who pretended to like her then slept with her for a prank, for his mates who had a gay old time watching, by the ADFA high-ups who failed to realise how damaging and wrong this is, and by the ACT police who apparently can’t find a crime unless they feel like it – and even by our laws which don’t seem to specify that this is a crime.

thank you
this is true, this is very damaging to her and all defence women. Something big has to be done to ensure that this never happens and instead of seeing women as guests in the defence, they should be accepted as work colleagues. With modern technology those pictures and the video may still be getting circulated through the army. Sex is normally where people are at their most vulnerable what has been done is sexual abuse and stripping of dignity.
All the blocks who did this should have it tattooed on the chest. How would you feel if it was your sister? I bet you’d be out to kill, it is no wonder why they’re names are confidential. I swear if I found out who they were they’d be in for a world of hurt. This type of behaviour is bad for the defence force and for all men. It reinforces stereotypes that men are Dciks, all they do is think about sex and cannot be trusted. Is this something that should be reinforced?
Don’t let your daughters leave the house without you because they may be drugged and raped, don’t let your kids walk to school as they may be attacked by a seedy old man. Women can’t leave work on their own or walk anywhere at night for fear of the big bad MAN. Come on guys help yourselves don’t disrespect, don’t bring down women, don’t strip us of dignity.

STOP ATTACKING US.

sepi 10:50 am 09 Apr 11

#52 “Really, the woman isn’t the focus of the story here.”

Um – yes she is. She should be the entire focus of the story. Her life will never be the same again. This is not just an academic discussion of a 50 page document, this is a person who has been badly wronged.

Both by the worm who pretended to like her then slept with her for a prank, for his mates who had a gay old time watching, by the ADFA high-ups who failed to realise how damaging and wrong this is, and by the ACT police who apparently can’t find a crime unless they feel like it – and even by our laws which don’t seem to specify that this is a crime.

breda 6:01 pm 08 Apr 11

Well, for a start ADFA (and the ADF) need to go back to taws and realise that if you are running a mixed sex university – which is what the College is – then, der, people are going to have sex, and maybe even form relationships. Once upon a time it was the other way around, but I digress.

Banning this is just futile – they need to develop policies which recognise reality and avoid losing good people of either gender just because they have sex or even fall in love. Most people meet their partners through study or work, so why would the ADF be any different?

Most large organisations have policies about relationships between their members, and seem to manage, so why not the ADF? As for all the ‘covering one’s back in the line of fire’ crap, well, the cops, and indeed organisations where the line of fire is less physical, have policies to prevent conflicts of interest in that situation. It is not rocket science, except, it seems, to the dinosaurs in the ADF. They really need to stop running their organisation like a 1950s same sex boarding school and grow up.

Since the facts of the case under discussion are not yet verified, my only comment is that if this guy videoed them having sex without her permission (whether he transmitted it or not), he should be chucked out on his ear. She should also be disciplined for any rules she broke. But these things will keep happening until the ADF gets real about what happens when a university or a workplace has not only closeted homosexuals, but very out there heterosexuals, mixing together. Just like in the real world.

Skidbladnir 5:04 pm 08 Apr 11

Sleaz274 said :

It was rhetorical…hence the joke about the bromide at the end…

Rhetorical questioning fail, and also a more general rhetoric failure.

Back on topic, she knew the policy, she didn’t expect to get caught out. She certainly didn’t expect to be caught out in such a method, but I’m guessing the subsequent treatment were what pushed her into media contact.
If she wanted to stay (and if ADF were willing to\able to keep her), so be it. Otherwise, she’s young enough to go do other things and fade away back into societal obscurity.
Really, the woman isn’t the focus of the story here.

The potential sexual harassment and bullying on the other hand, and how it will be pursued for the perpetrating cadets (the other 46 pages of the document you’re still not reading) are matters for the ADF to resolve institutionally.
Defence can make their own determination into the conduct of the Officer cadets, but as far as I’m concerned, the issue of treatment of sexual harassment complaints, instutional handling and (maybe)eventual prosecution the harassment charge\s should be given a certain amount of airtime.
IE: Effective policy should be seen to be (rather than allegedly) enforced, and not merely have a written policy document to be waved about and given lip-service.

Sleaz274 3:57 pm 08 Apr 11

It was rhetorical…hence the joke about the bromide at the end, I apologise if my punctuation confused you.

I know of which you speak, the 3 month moratorium on “relationships or private intimate affairs” which is why we were separated in my first year by sex, service (2nd and 3rd year) and year level. This policy has since been changed by the higher ups into mixed divisions and mixed service right from the start and by anecdotal evidence cadets were shagging in the first week.

Once again pointing at a paragraph is not an argument, please articulate an opinion, I can use google searches and read PDFs myself. After reading it again I still can’t see its relevance to all this vitriol being poured against the lady involved nor the calls for her dismissal from the ADF.

I would suspect however that her previously high opinion of the services will be destroyed and she’ll be finding herself a new line of work anyway. It can be very lonely surrounded by uniforms.

Skidbladnir 3:18 pm 08 Apr 11

Sleaz274 said :

Why not fix the policy seeing that it is obviously inappropriate and broken rather than try to “fix” the humans?

I’m sure Houston has a lot more to worry about than if cadets in private and behind closed doors have a relationship.

RTFDoco.
For clarity, B-8: Para34-35 should be a good place to start familiarising yourself with them, but at 50 pages its not a tough read.
Come back when you read them, since rapidly becoming clear you’ve got a strong opinion on it but either not read it, glanced through, or your CO failed in your briefs when you were in attendance.

But as with almost all policy, the issue isn’t just the written policy, its the on-the-ground enforcement by managers\commanders.
Its about time Defence caught up with at least 20th century attitudes on acceptable social behaviour, before we get too much further into the 21st.

Sleaz274 2:25 pm 08 Apr 11

“The way men talk about women in the army is horrible…”

Have you been to a pub lately? Or listened to tradies having their morning brew? Don’t think the Army is somehow magically different.

Chewy please put forward your argument why this young lady should be kicked out as well. It would be better than just your constant back pedalling now that more reasoned opinion has emerged away from the Today Tonight chattering crowd.

Skid maybe you should have presented some sort of counter argument 3 posts ago instead of just brandishing around the policy document like a metaphorical sword with which to lop off all their heads. Why not fix the policy seeing that it is obviously inappropriate and broken rather than try to “fix” the humans? The rumour is they tried that with bromide hahaha.

Two wars, civilian killings, dwindling recruitment and retention numbers, a huge budget blow out by billions, a broken procurement process and did I mention two unwinnable wars? I’m sure Houston has a lot more to worry about than if cadets in private and behind closed doors have a relationship.

Once again if anyone can articulate an argument why this young lady should be kicked out, as you all keep screaming for, then please go ahead. Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

roflmao 1:04 pm 08 Apr 11

EvanJames said :

Recruiting hormone-crazed kiddies and then being surprised that they don’t act like officers and gentlemen/ladies. huh.

I don’t see this as the issue, it doesn’t take a smart person to know that videoing someone having sex against their will and distributing it is fcuked up. Its betrayal, it reinforces an undesirable culture in the defence force. This type of sexual slander in the defence against females is disgusting and is a regular occurrence. You will be hard pressed to find a female in the defence who hasn’t been rumoured about in an undesirable sexual manor.

The way men talk about women in the army is horrible, they ridicule and joke about all they are women are good for is sex and baby’s. This is not all but is the majority. I hate to think what may have happened to other women without their knowledge.

fgzk 8:51 am 08 Apr 11

twistie said :

I served in RAN & RAEME. I have knowledge of mil law through my service life. First I had problems of bastardry through my 12 months at HMAS Luewin a lot worse than this. No female recruits there but we slept in 4 berth cabins. It was mentioned when they built single room accomodation that there would be problems and now there are. At HMAS ceberas males accomodation was a long way from females. If you got caught in female rooms the sack. Same same with females. There are no laws on filming with or without consent under civillian law. Otherwise paparatzi would be out of work. Military is different. I think she should have gone to senior female officers, counciler, padre or member of parliment. Charges of fratenising, bringing in disrespect and other ADFA laws will apply probably bring discarges will follow. Mabye a holiday at Ingleburn correction centre (horrible place i visited there) There needs to be a different base to train little girles. Because like football the military is really a mens world. I know they have to encourage females into the forces. I knew that when the dod mixing sexes on bases and ships there would be problems the same as merchant ships. To stop this have bases ans ships for male & female.There will only be sexual equality when dragons or st kilda have a female front row or fullback

Ive worked a merchant ship with a female, one legged, black, first mate and mixed crew. The only problems where to do with American’s at sea and the islanders in port. They where mostly civilian trained. As long as you kept the crew off the piss then everyone got along equally. When the piss ran out two weeks from port the ship went to shit. Apart from the yanks, the only times that the crew split into groups, down racial or sexual lines, alcohol was involved.

Its no surprise that soldiers have strong views on race and sexuality issues. They have a culture of alcohol abuse that only encourages pointless conflict. Keep the women, chuck the booze.

twistie 11:15 pm 07 Apr 11

I served in RAN & RAEME. I have knowledge of mil law through my service life. First I had problems of bastardry through my 12 months at HMAS Luewin a lot worse than this. No female recruits there but we slept in 4 berth cabins. It was mentioned when they built single room accomodation that there would be problems and now there are. At HMAS ceberas males accomodation was a long way from females. If you got caught in female rooms the sack. Same same with females. There are no laws on filming with or without consent under civillian law. Otherwise paparatzi would be out of work. Military is different. I think she should have gone to senior female officers, counciler, padre or member of parliment. Charges of fratenising, bringing in disrespect and other ADFA laws will apply probably bring discarges will follow. Mabye a holiday at Ingleburn correction centre (horrible place i visited there) There needs to be a different base to train little girles. Because like football the military is really a mens world. I know they have to encourage females into the forces. I knew that when the dod mixing sexes on bases and ships there would be problems the same as merchant ships. To stop this have bases ans ships for male & female.There will only be sexual equality when dragons or st kilda have a female front row or fullback

I-filed 11:14 pm 07 Apr 11

One of the likely readers of this forum I used to know well when he was at ANU, living in ressies. He is now a VERY senior ACT public servant. I was something of a “protected little friend” to this man’s ANU circle, being three years younger. I was present when these fine upstanding chaps were boasting amongst themselves about a recent conquest. Startlingly similar to the ADFA case in a long-pre-internet world. By prior arrangement, ******* seduced a girl they all mocked as “ugly” in his room on the ground floor of one of the ANU student halls. Five of his friends watched the “action” through his window. One of those five watchers is a prominent, senior national union figure in NSW. So don’t anyone think this phenomenon is a Defence thing. Or a recent development among young men. I have never known the “ugly girl”‘s identity. I hope she never found out.

chewy14 7:56 pm 07 Apr 11

I appreciate that Johnboy,
but the men can only be kicked out even though they probably deserve more.

Skidbladnir 6:35 pm 07 Apr 11

Sleaz274 said :

Then there would be no Defence Force…

I don’t see the point of your argument. I really hate the Canberra answer of linking to a policy document and saying “so there” as though it somehow proves an argument. It’s a piece of paper, written by a bunch of ASO 6s.

The policy is impossible to enforce in an institute at ADFA which is readily exampled by the entire staffing structure from Commandant down ignoring it and bending such a blunt instrument to deal with the every day intricacies of cadet and Academy life. As I said the policy is designed as an umbrella for all members on all bases, very few bases however are the 24/7 home for 700+ 17-24 year olds…
there would be no serving captains / majors / lieutenants left if it was rigorously applied.

Few points. I don’t remember ever saying that policy was my entire argument, but it would help if people read the policy they want to claim an opinion on.
Uninformed debate is boring to read.

I have helped develop and implement policy, but don’t ever expect 100% compliance,w live in the real world. Hours managers and leaders occupy the space between the policy word and the policy intent.
If you try to enforce every part of every law and regulation, as you say, nobody gets anything done, our we lose an entire intake year at ADFA.
I don’t intend to debate the policy, merely introduced it for showing the rope by which those Cadets will be hung.

But if they want to wear the uniform and trade on the professional reputation of the ADF, the price of that is being held to the Defence professional standards.
However, I’d suggest Angus Houston wouldn’t sign off a policy he thought wasn’t with the paper it was written on, and as a former cadet, you should bear that in mind, even if you think it was written by an ASO 6.

Again, if cadets want to be playing grownup games, they should learn the grownup rules, our go back to the children’s table.

BerraBoy68 6:32 pm 07 Apr 11

chewy14 said :

I think one of the most important things that I want in a member of the defence force is the ability to follow rules and orders. Deciding that you don’t like the rules and so you’ll do whatever you want just doesn’t cut it.
She should be booted along with the males who are deadshits of the highest order.

If everybody in the ADF always followed rules you’d lose a lot of the history that we love. ANZACs were famous for flouting the rules (only saluting when they felt like it, etc.) and that’s in part where our love of our military comes from (yea, it’s a generalisation but I can live with it).

I’ve been posted to a few bases when in the military and ran foul of the fraternisation rule myself when in the Navy. The docky-coppers pinged me for holding hands with my girlfriend (who was also a serving member) on a Friday night while walking back from the on-base cinema. We learned to live with it by going to each other rooms (OK, up to certain hours) or hanging out at the junior sailors bar. Places where if you’re out of sight of those paid to enforce rules you’re pretty much OK.

Where these idiots have let themselves, their families and the ADF down is in engaging in behavior that is disgusting in any walk of life, not just the ADF. The girl placed her trust in someone and he let her down my sharing what is meant to be intimate moment with others without her consent. That said, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of having their careers ended before they even start. We all make bad decision at that age that we can live to regret. I’d hope that other methods can be found to punish these kids, perhaps back-classing them, moving them on to their relevant forces non-academic officer training (e.g RMC) or even telling them they can come back in 1-2 years.

As for the girl, there is no way she should be vilified for talking to the media, particularly if those in positions in responsibility failed to take appropriate action. I find it strange that people cry out for the protection of whistle-blowers where it comes to foreign policy issues, public health etc. yet when a young girl finds she has no other option but to speak out about abuse, people call for her to be sacked.

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