Suicide in Psychiatric Ward

Thanks Trix. I wasn’t suggesting that people go from cheerful to suicidal and back again in a mere 30 minutes, but rather from depressed and thinking about suicide to an acute state of being likely to go through with it.

I’m not going to entertain speculation on who is the most depressed RiotACT reader. We have all known people who have suffered depression and other mental disorders and when someone you love says “I’m suicidal” it is damn hard to know what to do.

I am lucky enough to have worked in healthcare and known that you could get fantastic reading material from textbooks to easily read brochures from organizations like Living Is For Everyone. I am a nerd so my natural response in a difficult situation is to read. It doesn’t make me mistake proof but if someone I cared about died from suicide and I had done nothing at all, I would have blamed myself.

Trained mental health experts should at least review their performance and policy when things go wrong. They shouldn’t be blamed or shamed, just given an opportunity to improve, just as we learn from experience in all other aspects of our lives.

dvaey said :

motleychick said :

I just don’t understand how you can say that someone only feels suicidal for half an hour. If you have research to show that this is true please share it. But I’ve studied this and that is far from true.

I think the majority of those who ‘feel suicidal for half an hour’ are the same ones who go on facebook/fml/livejournal and talk about how their life is so horrible and they hate everyone and everything, right before they goto the mall with their friends and suddenly get over it. Those people might need mental health help, but it doesnt mean theyre going to end it all, and theyre rarely the ones in the mental health system, who this article is about helping.

Please tell me you don’t work in the ACT Mental Health system …. please?!

@Urban:

Yes – I hope I am well informed before being willing to post on such a sensitive topic. For anyone else that would like to know the background of this case, search abc.net.au or read the Canberra Times. Here is the link to the last article on the abc:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/10/3062489.htm

Perhaps I should have been clearer – the family are trying to blame the doctors and I think that that is unrealistic.

My only ‘link’ to this case is that I have been an inpatient in the facility where the suicide took place.

motleychick said :

I just don’t understand how you can say that someone only feels suicidal for half an hour. If you have research to show that this is true please share it. But I’ve studied this and that is far from true.

I think the majority of those who ‘feel suicidal for half an hour’ are the same ones who go on facebook/fml/livejournal and talk about how their life is so horrible and they hate everyone and everything, right before they goto the mall with their friends and suddenly get over it. Those people might need mental health help, but it doesnt mean theyre going to end it all, and theyre rarely the ones in the mental health system, who this article is about helping.

motleychick said :

JessicaNumber said :

Not funny at all.

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour.

I’m assuming from this comment that you know nothing at all about suicidality or have never experienced it. Suicide is a constant feeling for people who are suffering from mental health issues. Hopelessness is a feeling that many people with depression, bipolar or anxiety suffer and that’s a big one to make people want to commit suicide. Could you imagine feeling hopeless every second of every day? Suicide intervention can be helpful, and so can medication. But if someone is feeling that hopeless about themselves and their life, then they believe their only option is to commit suicide so they don’t have to deal with it anymore. They also feel that they are a burden to their friends and families and that if they are no longer around it will make everyone else’s life easier.

I just don’t understand how you can say that someone only feels suicidal for half an hour. If you have research to show that this is true please share it. But I’ve studied this and that is far from true.

Sorry MChick, I don’t doubt your research … but I CAN say it can be episodic, but I can only say that for myself. Like many things – its shades of grey, and I could only say that perhaps its not the same for everyone. Many years ago, I definitely had those thoughts and episodes come and go over a few years during a particular stage in my life. I would expect that this might be particularly true for those with bi-polar (certainly the ones I’ve spoken with)?

I don’t think that we can be so general about something so complex as to assume from one set of comments that someone else knows nothing about this particular life/death matter. I hope we don’t presume to know anyone’s mind in the case of suicide, as evidenced by the case that the OP is referring to.

dvaey said :

JessicaNumber said :

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour…

Where does this expert opinion come from? Apparently not from anyone whos actually been suicidal. Maybe a half-hour suicidal episode might happen while on drugs or in an extreme situation, but a lot of people with mental health issues who are at risk of suicide, are at risk a lot more often than a ‘half an hour state’. Im sure suffers of depression and other mental health disorders experienced only an ‘acute feeling’.

roflmao said :

I believe people should have the right to decide for themselves, though I maintain that suicide is a selfish act, which hurts those closest to you.

A lot of things are ‘selfish acts’. Should we never do anything in life that might hurt someone close to you? If an individual feels so despaired, lost and isolated that they feel suicide is the only option, it annoys me when others try to make the issue about them.

Theres nothing worse, in a suicidal state, feeling everything is falling down around you, to hear those closest to you talking about how youre being selfish and how it will hurt them. Saying ‘that will hurt me’ is just emotional blackmail and is more likely to push someone over the edge than actually trying to solve the problem in the first place.

Ive been there, Ive had people say those things to me, and Ill tell you first-hand, if you feel your life has no value, having people tell you youre being selfish and should be thinking about them and their feelings, is pretty much the last thing you need to hear in that situation.

Bingo – it speaks to your existence only being valuable while it serves another’s needs. What you look for is hope, not guilt.

@motleychick and JessicaNumber – actually, let’s not get too absolutist over this. I understand that BOTH can be true. You can struggle with depression for quite some time (or even not) and then fairly suddenly decide to make an attempt, perhaps due to a specific precipitating event. People who drive into bridges after breaking up with their partners, for example.

Other people struggle with overtly suicidal thoughts and plans hour by hour for months or even years.

People are hugely variable, and it’s only to be expected there is a range of experience in this area (and every other).

Amanda Hugankis said :

BUT I think we have to be very careful to not say ‘someone killed themselves in our medical/psychatric care, and if someone is going to do it there isn’t anything we can do to stop them, therefore there is no need for us to examine if there is anything we could have done to prevent this’.

Spot-on, Amanda. Someone here seems to be very quick to try and shift blame elsewhere. An investigation into suicide (or any incident involving deaths) should not necessarily be about finger-pointing, per se, but often there are lessons to be learned. Running around saying “It wuzn’t MEEEE!” doesn’t really foster an attitude of investigating what might be done better in future.

JessicaNumber said :

Not funny at all.

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour.

I’m assuming from this comment that you know nothing at all about suicidality or have never experienced it. Suicide is a constant feeling for people who are suffering from mental health issues. Hopelessness is a feeling that many people with depression, bipolar or anxiety suffer and that’s a big one to make people want to commit suicide. Could you imagine feeling hopeless every second of every day? Suicide intervention can be helpful, and so can medication. But if someone is feeling that hopeless about themselves and their life, then they believe their only option is to commit suicide so they don’t have to deal with it anymore. They also feel that they are a burden to their friends and families and that if they are no longer around it will make everyone else’s life easier.

I just don’t understand how you can say that someone only feels suicidal for half an hour. If you have research to show that this is true please share it. But I’ve studied this and that is far from true.

JessicaNumber said :

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour.

I wish that had been true for me. I suspect for many who are suicidal it’s not something that lasts only half an hour. There was a period in my life when it was something I thought about nearly constantly; thinking about doing it, how to do it, how to stop people stopping me. That state lasted for many years in chunks of months with perhaps a few weeks between where I wasn’t suicidal.

This doesn’t mean everyone is like that, but I just wanted to point out that for some people it can be a ‘long term’ problem.

JessicaNumber said :

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour…

Where does this expert opinion come from? Apparently not from anyone whos actually been suicidal. Maybe a half-hour suicidal episode might happen while on drugs or in an extreme situation, but a lot of people with mental health issues who are at risk of suicide, are at risk a lot more often than a ‘half an hour state’. Im sure suffers of depression and other mental health disorders experienced only an ‘acute feeling’.

roflmao said :

I believe people should have the right to decide for themselves, though I maintain that suicide is a selfish act, which hurts those closest to you.

A lot of things are ‘selfish acts’. Should we never do anything in life that might hurt someone close to you? If an individual feels so despaired, lost and isolated that they feel suicide is the only option, it annoys me when others try to make the issue about them.

Theres nothing worse, in a suicidal state, feeling everything is falling down around you, to hear those closest to you talking about how youre being selfish and how it will hurt them. Saying ‘that will hurt me’ is just emotional blackmail and is more likely to push someone over the edge than actually trying to solve the problem in the first place.

Ive been there, Ive had people say those things to me, and Ill tell you first-hand, if you feel your life has no value, having people tell you youre being selfish and should be thinking about them and their feelings, is pretty much the last thing you need to hear in that situation.

JessicaNumber said :

Not funny at all.

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour. Suicidal feelings are associated with depression and even more strongly with conditions like eating disorder, anxiety and bipolar disorder that can leave the person feeling completely out of control.

People who laugh and joke about suicide or try to stigmatise it just make it difficult for patients to call for help in that desperate half hour when living seems so hard.

In conclusion, pull your head in. It might all be a horrible mistake by the expert and well meaning staff but there’s nothing to be gained by blaming the patient.

I totally agree. I have heard quoted before that “Suicide is such a permanent solution to what is probably a temporary problem”.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

As someone whose life has been touched by suicide, all I can say is that if someone makes the decision to take their life they will find a way to do it. You can’t apportion blame to others.

Agreed!

pre-empting the coroners decision much?

Not funny at all.

The suicidal feeling is not a constant state, it is an acute feeling that may only last a half hour. Suicidal feelings are associated with depression and even more strongly with conditions like eating disorder, anxiety and bipolar disorder that can leave the person feeling completely out of control.

People who laugh and joke about suicide or try to stigmatise it just make it difficult for patients to call for help in that desperate half hour when living seems so hard.

In conclusion, pull your head in. It might all be a horrible mistake by the expert and well meaning staff but there’s nothing to be gained by blaming the patient.

As someone whose life has been touched by suicide, all I can say is that if someone makes the decision to take their life they will find a way to do it. You can’t apportion blame to others.

I know what you are saying – I had the same thought ‘how do you stop someone determined to take their own life’. It depends who is doing the blaming, and for what reason (e.g.: grieving family, medical/hospital board, etc.).

BUT I think we have to be very careful to not say ‘someone killed themselves in our medical/psychatric care, and if someone is going to do it there isn’t anything we can do to stop them, therefore there is no need for us to examine if there is anything we could have done to prevent this’.

I don’t think that we can ever know for sure how many people have not carried through a thought or plan of suicide because of something someone – ANYone – has said or done that changed their mind. I can bet my Nanna that there are people on this forum that have had these thoughts and come close and something has changed their course of action, and so would understand the difference intervention can make. I think its always in medicine’s best interest to assess each of these cases and their involvement/influence in them in order to better understand how to treat future cases.

What a unusual way to comment about suicide. Blame the victim. It wasn’t the staff’s fault. This is the sort of thing I’d expect to read from one who was blamed for this death. It leads me to as Vic what your interest in this is? You seem rather well informed, perhaps you are one of the staff blamed?

Suicide of anyone is a tradegy. It essentially means that some one has been failed by soociety. That some one was in so much pain or mental anguish that they have concluded that their life is not worth living. I am amazed that this opening post discusses it so casually. This was a life, a husband, a father, some one’s loved one. Your whole post focusses on blame rather than the sadness of this loss. Yes, a very odd post indeed.

And for those that are thinking of suicide, I reccomend you call your local CATT team.
Canberra: 1800 629 354 (24 hour service) or (02) 6205 1065.

There are not staff in a the same room with patients unless you’re in intensive care. Anyone could do it if they really wanted to the minute a staff person walked out.

Unless they tied him to a chair, if someone wants to do it, they will find a way.

I feel sorry for the family – but it certainly isn’t anyone else’s fault.

Suicide is a complex issue, though i agree you can’t blame it on someone else. It%u2019s like blaming the owner of a house that was robbed for the robbery. It was your house you should have better protected it. I believe people should have the right to decide for themselves, though I maintain that suicide is a selfish act, which hurts those closest to you.

1

I’ve known two people who have been in the same position as the deceased, both of them worked out ways to end it all despite the best attentions of their doctors. Both had decided that if they could convince the doctors that they didn’t represent a threat to themselves they would be able to end it all sooner rather than later. Both had the doctors convinced they were on the road to a full and happy recovery, both planned for it to appear that way.

If an intelligent person decides to give a doctor a false impression of their well-being there’s not much any doctor or anyone else can do about it.