The prison doors open...

I personally prefer my thieves, murderers and rapists to have changed somewhat before they next stand behind me and my preschooler in the supermarket.

Strikes me there’s bugger all thought for the victims of these criminal a@#eholes in this discussion.

I would like my pound of flesh from the thieving, abusing, assaulting, destructive creatures who constitute the guests of this establishment.

The rehabilitation can start later.

Fantastic story, Overheard!

It just goes to show the sort of constructive things that can be done when people are willing to use a bit of common sense.

We could always take a leaf out of Italy’s (cook) book and have the prison run as a gourmet restaurant, esp. given this town’s preoccupation with eateries:

http://aroundbritainwithapaunch.blogspot.com/2007/05/italian-food-in-prison.html

Probably better links exist, but this one was handy.

I don’t think the inmate chefs get to wield the carving knives.

Just found what the inscription is at the front of the building.

There are two inscriptions on the prison’s perimeter: “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights,” which is taken from The United States Declaration of Independence, and “Each of the persons deprived of their liberty must be humanely and with respect for the inherent dignity of the human being treated.”

I was once sent a email on a luxury prison in leoben Austria, looked very nice and updated.

Perhaps Stanhope is trying to keep up with the rest of the world?

An ADG? That would be worse than prison. 😛

But seriously, a gaol where the con gets a swipe card to let them in and out of their cell, has their own ensuite, free gym access and all meals included sounds suspiciously like the sofitel to me.

Peter, DMD, VY.

Last warning, next OT comment will see you in moderation.

That is all.

Deadmandrinking said :

nyssa76 said :

DMD, are you serious? Do you comprehend a sentence?

Pay soldiers handsomely? Are you the one that is high?

You have no argument.

Your logic is flawed and you need to focus more on learning that preaching absolute BS.

Well, gee, I’d like 30,000 a year for my education, wouldn’t you?

In fact, it all looks pretty alright to me: http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/army/payAndBenefits/payDetails.aspx

How much do convicts get paid then?

why should convicts get paid?
how come soldiers get paid so little?
I would prefer that they were paid well, can you say military coup?

30k for your education? sure. But you have to be taught and sign a contract that means you can go to war at the drop of a hat, but hey, you got an education first….

my advice to you is to go and enlist. Try the Airforce. a position in the ADG will sort you out….

Well, the pay’s pretty nice, you gotta admit…

You can just waltz into being a doctor, can’t you? I’ll be your new shrink tomorrow, just let me head down to the hospital and put in my application.

What does this have to do with anything? I still maintain soldiers aren’t paid handsomely, and that you think they are cos you don’t know any better. Anyway, have a good arvo, I’m off…

You can just waltz into being a doctor, can’t you? I’ll be your new shrink tomorrow, just let me head down to the hospital and put in my application.

J/B, I kind of think this constitutes as being part of the prison argument. I honestly think the argument that ‘we give nothing to our soldiers, but everything to our prisoners’ is the most ridiculous argument since ‘Santa is real because I saw him in the mall’. Maybe these people need to spend some time in Goulburn to find out…

Perhaps we could pay prisoner in drugs?

Alright you horrible lot that’s enough.

You should all know better.

Disgrace to the uniform an’ all.

Seriously though unless you’re talking about prisons it’s time to give it a rest.

Because those things add up to several thousand a year, maybe more if you knwo how to use the system. I get only only a small propertion of those extra benefits, but then I am paid a great deal more than they are.

Even assuming they manage to add $20k a year to their income, given the hassle they experience in getting it (ie by being away from their families a lot and placing themselves in physical danger) it still doesn’t represent good pay in my opinion.

It took 8 years after finishing my undergrad degree before I was paid what I considered to be a lot. Seriously – the pay numbers given on that page are OK, but they are NOT ‘handsome’ by any sensible Australian measure. Have a look what guys in higher end IT jobs earn, or what people who work in the mines make, or private sector lawyers and accountants, or doctors, or…

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

In fact, it all looks pretty alright to me: http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/army/payAndBenefits/payDetails.aspx

This is the sort of thing that makes your lack of experience bleedingly obvious. If you think the numbers in those links represent ‘handsome’ pay in Australia, you’ve clearly never held a full time job.

Jeez, mate, the average full time Australian income is only about $60k a year!

Why don’t you calculate the housing assistance, house buying assistance, bonuses to super, free private health care, tax benefits…do you get all of these with your job?

In fact, it all looks pretty alright to me: http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/army/payAndBenefits/payDetails.aspx

This is the sort of thing that makes your lack of experience bleedingly obvious. If you think the numbers in those links represent ‘handsome’ pay in Australia, you’ve clearly never held a full time job.

Jeez, mate, the average full time Australian income is only about $60k a year!

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Of course soldiers are paid handsomely… compared to school kids who work at Maccas…

Macca’s pay $55 grand a year? Dude, why didn’t I get a job there in high school?

nyssa76 said :

DMD, are you serious? Do you comprehend a sentence?

Pay soldiers handsomely? Are you the one that is high?

You have no argument.

Your logic is flawed and you need to focus more on learning that preaching absolute BS.

Well, gee, I’d like 30,000 a year for my education, wouldn’t you?

In fact, it all looks pretty alright to me: http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/army/payAndBenefits/payDetails.aspx

How much do convicts get paid then?

Of course soldiers are paid handsomely… compared to school kids who work at Maccas…

The point is that you seem to have a strongly held pinko lefty view on nearly every emotive topic that comes up on this site, and you’re still a school kid.

And it’s not sad, it’s just kinda typical of some young people who think they know more than they really do. But keep it coming…

Can anyone explain to me how exactly soldiers are anything like convicts? Do they not get paid all of a sudden? Has conscription suddenly been reintroduced? Do we not have ANZAC day anymore?

Go enlist, train and all that.

Then we all might listen to what you have to say. Right now, all you’re doing is talking shit.

DMD, are you serious? Do you comprehend a sentence?

Pay soldiers handsomely? Are you the one that is high?

You have no argument.

Your logic is flawed and you need to focus more on learning that preaching absolute BS.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

DMD, my opinion is that people who have lived and worked and contributed to society have more understanding of it than some kid who hasn’t finished school (ie you).

In other words, you can’t contribute to the argument, so you try to use elitism to make yourself appear smart. Sad, really. So sad.

DMD, my opinion is that people who have lived and worked and contributed to society have more understanding of it than some kid who hasn’t finished school (ie you).

Great to see you actually have an opinion, VY. We certainly benefit from your life experience…*whistle* Ask Thumper about the whole world holding hands theory. Looks like you both have no idea about society.

VG, when you opened your mouth, you lost the argument. Soldiers are not subject to such conditions without reward. You should know this.

Can anyone explain to me how exactly soldiers are anything like convicts? Do they not get paid all of a sudden? Has conscription suddenly been reintroduced? Do we not have ANZAC day anymore?

Thumper, please enlighten us further on your ‘real political will’. You might want to tell us which prisons don’t have drugs as well. If not, maybe a realistic plan to stop drugs from entering the prisons (you’ll have to think about the practices already in place in many prisons).

do have respect for people who have the balls to do that (FYI I actually have a mild to severe hearing impairment that wouldn’t get me past the physical requirements, so it’s not a matter of balls, really)

How convenient. It’s lucky your still studying and know everything, we all benefit so much from your deep life experiences. Perhaps if the whole world held hands and danced all our problems would magically be solved.

Of course, everyone has a right to an opinion, but seriously, STFU!

Pay soldiers handsomely?

If there ever was a nail to the coffin of your argument you just drove it home.

I see you in a leather jacket pretending to be Fonzie as you are towed by speedboat to jump the shark cage. You really do have no idea, which is quite sad.

Now was that ‘net me’ or ‘real me’?

“Oh, and DMD, once you signed up and worn the uniform then I think you can comment on what motivates a soldier. Some just want security of the job, others like the comradeship, some the lifestyle, others want to test themselves, and yes, some even want to serve in an active service zone.”

Yep, they seem like decent motivations – but all soldiers MUST take into account that THEY WILL be sent to war in the event they are required to do so. Anybody who joins the Army and does not intend to go to war needs to seriously rethink their decisions. The Army is there for defense. That is it’s purpose. Plain and simple.

They should also consider that the army is tough. We, society, want the army to be able to handle tough situations, so we toughen them. That’s why Army jail is tough. It has a low rate of recidivism because most inmates are usually not hardened criminals and are used to tough treatment. Criminals and Soldiers are usually very different people.

Nyssa, have you had your coffee this morning? I’m sorry, but what you wrote was completely idiotic. ‘Given so little’? Are you high? We pay soldiers handsomely, arrange them accommodation, even hold parades for them. They do a good job and for that, they are rewarded. Not to mention the personal satisfaction.

Finally, back to you Thumper. It’s very easy to say ‘Let’s get rid of drugs’, but it is impossible to put that in action. If your theory worked, there would be no drugs in society. But there are, so lets be realistic and worry about health concerns too.

DMD, isn’t it amazing that it’s ADF members, past and present, who’s actions and RESPECT for our country and laws, allow you to make such namby pamby BS comments?

ADF have a lower rate of criminal activity and they actually contribute positively to society. Why should ‘good’ people be given so little whereas ‘bad’ people are given a hell of a lot more than most breadline Australians can afford?

Gaol should be just that – you break the law, you do the time. You don’t get luxuries.

Sucky life? Nah mate, it’s you. Afterall, you have nothing better to do than support Club Med for convicts.

DMD – The comparisons are made as the gaol is practically Club Med Canberra. It is seen by many members of the public as rewarding for commtting crimes.

I don’t think you have much of an understanding behind the motives of people in the army or those in prison. Defence Gaol has about 1% recidivist rate. It is hard/imposed discipline and it works as people don’t go back there twice (or very rarely do.) It is a prison that works as it imposes discipline until people display self discipline. AMC should be the same.

Sentences should be longer and prisoners can reduce their time by displaying they are rehabilitated and can be sent back to the community. The current system doesn’t work. They are not in the “rehab” for long enough to have an effect on their lives and habits.

“The same with GOOD cops (not the ones that blatantly abuse their power and let down the public by not properly doing job they applied for).”

I know what you’re childishly trying to imply here, and it really demonstrates how you can’t cogently argue a topic at hand without reverting to your broken record know it all issue when it comes to anything to do with law enforcement and the application of judicial principles. You are a ‘know it all’, the reality is I don’t know it all but know a boat load more about it than you ever will.

The beauty of an anonymous forum is that people can adopt a persona distant from what they really are. You seem to take everything as absolutes, because I take the p1ss, give someone a mouthful or are rude or contrary then that MUST be what I’m like in ‘real’ life and professionally. I MUST be a person who abuses my power, I MUST be one of those ‘bad cops’ that everyone tells me about.

The reality is my professional persona couldn’t be more different from what I present here because, guess what, I am professional in the workplace. I have a cupboard full of commendations and personal letters from members of the public thanking me for the level of service and compassion I display. I have a letter from a person I arrested for fraud who thanked me for the humane, compassionate and professional way that I dealt with them. This was someone I arrested, not a victim.

I have travelled the world with my work and been promoted to what one would describe as a ‘senior’ level. But I must be a ‘bad cop’. I mean how long can I keep up this charade?

Not everything on the net is fact.

Oh, and BTW, I was in the military before I did what I do now. So guess what, I know a boatload more about that than you do. So why don’t you stop your incessant flapping, ranting and espousing of ‘knowledge’ that you’ve gained through reading a conspiracy paper somewhere and let the adults speak.

Don’t immaturely raise the good cop/bad cop thing every time you’re argued into a corner. Its better to let people think you’re and idiot rather than continually hit the keyboard and prove it. Next time you’re walked through an actual prison, spoken to actual prisoners and then had to support victims who suffered at the hand of these prisoners give us a yell. Until then grow up, no one likes a smart ass. I can pretend to be one one the net, but you’re not a good actor

vg said :

Au contraire. I think you would find that the vast minority of ADF staff really want to be involved in armed conflict where their lives would be lost. A bit like saying that all coppers have a desire to get involved in a shoot out every shift. Yes, its a logical consequence that such things may happen because of the occupation you are involved in, but there are severe ramifications if you disobey the order to go.

To take such a simplistic ‘know it all’ view of such issues is idiocy pure and simple. Your clearly not a person who has ever worked a job which has the ramifications of the 2 I described above.

‘Its not like we don’t reward them either’
Money is worth f%ck all if you aren’t alive to spend it. Have a bit of respect for people who have the balls to do the work you don’t

I do have respect for people who have the balls to do that (FYI I actually have a mild to severe hearing impairment that wouldn’t get me past the physical requirements, so it’s not a matter of balls, really). I have enough respect for them to not equal them to prisoners, who are put in those situations because of something they’ve done wrong. People who compare the army to prison are showing massive disrespect for the job and the people who do it.

It is not a matter of wanting to go to war. It is a matter of being prepared to do so come that situation. Most sane people who join the army understand that they will be required to go into living hells if the gov. requires them too. That’s what makes them good at their job. The same with GOOD cops (not the ones that blatantly abuse their power and let down the public by not properly doing job they applied for).

We reward our servicemen with money, respect and recognition of their sacrifice. To think that it’s only about the money shows a clear lack of understanding of why one should join the army.

Prisoners should be in prison to protect the community and rehabilitate them. Rehabilitation is not going to happen if you treat them like dirt. Humans are very adaptable creatures and will act how you treat them. Perhaps showing them that society is something they can learn to respect and gain respect from is a big start to a good thing.

Au contraire. I think you would find that the vast minority of ADF staff really want to be involved in armed conflict where their lives would be lost. A bit like saying that all coppers have a desire to get involved in a shoot out every shift. Yes, its a logical consequence that such things may happen because of the occupation you are involved in, but there are severe ramifications if you disobey the order to go.

To take such a simplistic ‘know it all’ view of such issues is idiocy pure and simple. Your clearly not a person who has ever worked a job which has the ramifications of the 2 I described above.

‘Its not like we don’t reward them either’
Money is worth f%ck all if you aren’t alive to spend it. Have a bit of respect for people who have the balls to do the work you don’t

Mælinar – *spoiler alert* I’ve seen S04E13 said :

Happy to be pointed to another large group of people put in a place that they would rather not be, mostly against their will, and because the establishment told them to be there.

It is not against their will. They agreed to go over there when they signed up KNOWING that they would be deployed in a war-zone come such an event. If you are not prepared to go to war, don’t join the army.

Happy to be pointed to another large group of people put in a place that they would rather not be, mostly against their will, and because the establishment told them to be there.

Poor wittle petal

Also, I’m sick of people trying to compare prison life to military service. You’re making it sound as if our fighting men and women are over there as some kind of punishment. They are doing it as a service to our country and out of their own volition. It’s not like we don’t reward them either.

nyssa76 said :

Yes DMD because God forbid people ‘pay’ for their crimes as opposed to getting a ‘holiday’.

Our defence members in Afghanistan do it a hell of a lot worse than most Aussie convicts.

The ‘softly softly’ approach is why they are recidivists – why change when you can get 3 squares, Foxtel, a pool etc?

Convicts are there because they broke the law – not to be pampered and it’s idiots like you that make it so much harder for the victims to believe that their ‘crim’ got a good slab of justice.

Does that Arizona jail sound anything like a ‘softy softy’ approach, Nyssa? Does Goulburn sound like you’re being pampered? Really? Gee your life must suck.

This jail is a world first. There is no real-world statistic to say that it causes higher recidivism. There are many jails around the world like the one in Arizona and there are high rates of Recidivism all over. The facts are there. People like you just can’t see them.

Make an animal out of a man, he will remain an animal.

Yes DMD because God forbid people ‘pay’ for their crimes as opposed to getting a ‘holiday’.

Our defence members in Afghanistan do it a hell of a lot worse than most Aussie convicts.

The ‘softly softly’ approach is why they are recidivists – why change when you can get 3 squares, Foxtel, a pool etc?

Convicts are there because they broke the law – not to be pampered and it’s idiots like you that make it so much harder for the victims to believe that their ‘crim’ got a good slab of justice.

That Sheriff belongs in his own gaol. Matt in the Hat has conveniently left out the bits about how he and his thugs have murdered the crippled and mentally retarded. Put a badge on a criminal and this is what you get.

Well…gee…Arizona has a lot less crime than the ACT, doesn’t it? The sheriff sounds like a sadist who seriously compromises his professional position by forcing his personal politics on people over who he has a duty of care. The man deserves to be locked up himself. He is a disgrace.

He is also part of the ‘poor me’ parade that is convinced they cannot afford the basic necessities of life even though they can be provided if you cannot. In cases where people can’t, they usually resort to crime. I don’t think the prisoners are going to see to many other options when they’re released. What’s the recidivist rate in Arizona?

Smack, I understand your point and it is a good one. I think safe-injecting rooms might be an answer to this. You are never going to get rid of drugs in prison, but it is possible to reduce disease. After all, disease affects the wider community.

First of all,

It is much eaiser digging at Wide bay than at Singo!

DMD,

I can appreciate the reasons why you are in favour of the needle exchange. If a needle exchange is to be implemented, how do you stop them being used as a weapons against prison staff or other prisoners? I think that is the difficulty here. The guards have a right to work in a safe environment (well as safe as it can be made)

Thumper – Too many people going through Singo that year as I started as a Double choc so 6RAR ran IET’s. The blokes from Kapooki who went to Sngo were laughing at us as they moved into the brand new Singo lines and we got tents.

Back on topic – Go the Sheriff

Bloody Human Rights do=gooders! Maybe we should take a leaf out of the jail below.

USA JAIL – SOME INTERESTING READING
TO THOSE OF YOU NOT FAMILIAR WITH JOE ARPAIO, HE IS THE MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF ( ARIZONA ) AND HE KEEPS GETTING ELECTED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

These are some of the reasons why:

Sheriff Joe Arpaio created the “tent city jail” to save Arizona from spending tens of millions of dollars on another expensive prison complex.

He has jail meals down to 20 cents a serving and charges the inmates for them.

He banned smoking and pornographic magazines in the jails, and took away their weightlifting equipment and cut off all but “G” movies. He says:
“They’re in jail to pay a debt to society not to build muscles so they can assault innocent people when they leave.”

He started chain gangs to use the inmates to do free work on county and city projects and save taxpayer’s money. Then he started chain gangs for women so he wouldn’t get sued for discrimination.

He took away cable TV until he found out there was a federal court order that required cable TV for jails. So he hooked up the cable TV again but only allows the Disney channel and the weather channel.

When asked why the weather channel, he replied: “So these morons will know how hot it’s gonna be while they are working on my chain gangs.”
He cut off coffee because it has zero nutritional value and is therefore a waste of taxpayer money. When the inmates complained, he told them, “This isn’t the Ritz/Carlton. If you don’t like it, don’t come back.”
He also bought the Newt Gingrich lecture series on US history that he pipes into the jails. When asked by a reporter if he had any lecture series by a Democrat, he replied that a democratic lecture series that actually tells the truth for a change would be welcome and that it might even explain why 95% of the inmates were in his jails in the first place.

With temperatures being even hotter than usual in Phoenix (116 degrees just set a new record for June 2nd 2007), the Associated Press reported: About 2,000 inmates living in a barbed wire surrounded tent encampment at the Maricopa County Jail have been given permission to strip down to their government-issued pink boxer shorts.

On the Wednesday, hundreds of men wearing pink boxer shorts were overheard chatting in the tents, where temperatures reached 128 degrees.
“This is hell. It feels like we live in a furnace,” said Ernesto Gonzales, an inmate for 2 years with 10 more to go. “It’s inhumane.”
Joe Arpaio, who makes his prisoners wear pink, and eat bologna sandwiches, is not one bit sympathetic. “Criminals should be punished for their crimes – not live in luxury until it’s time for parole, only to go out and commit more crimes so they can come back in to live on taxpayers money and enjoy things many taxpayers can’t afford to have for themselves.”

The same day he told all the inmates who were complaining of the heat in the tents: “It’s between 120 to 130 degrees in Iraq and our soldiers are living in tents too, and they have to walk all day in the sun, wearing full battle gear and get shot at, and they have not committed any crimes, so shut your damned mouths!”

Way to go, Sheriff! If all prisons were like yours there would be a lot less crime and we would not be in the current position of running out of prison spaces.

Sheriff Joe was just re-elected as Sheriff in Maricopa County, Arizona

It is my understanding people receive some sort of allowance whilst in prison – someone more in the know can correct me on this one.

Well, letting them back out on the streets without a cent to their name isn’t exactly going to encourage them to keep on the straight and narrow.

re the public housing allocation, they should be de-allocated and have to hit the queue again.

So are you saying we should be evicting their families onto the street in the best interests of society.

Although why anyone would be so desperate for vomit-flavoured booze escapes me.

You would be amazed at the things sane, rational people will do just to alleviate boredom – most of it self destructive or destructive to others.

they will still be socialising 24/7 with the sort of people they would normally hang out with by choice anyway

I’m sure Ahmed Alzaabi will enjoy hanging out with his fellow inmates. Sure the guy made a stupid decision with serious consequences but he is hardly the stereotypical criminal.

Ged said :

My cousin was a prison officer at Long Bay Jail, and he once spotted a group of about five inmates injecting themselves with a shared, rusty syringe.

“You fools,” he shouted. “Don’t you know you are going to get AIDS?”

“No, it’s okay,” said the ringleader. “We’re all wearing condoms!”

Oh but we can’t have condoms, because that encourages sex. I mean…honestly!

My cousin was a prison officer at Long Bay Jail, and he once spotted a group of about five inmates injecting themselves with a shared, rusty syringe.

“You fools,” he shouted. “Don’t you know you are going to get AIDS?”

“No, it’s okay,” said the ringleader. “We’re all wearing condoms!”

This is where extensive drug rehab needs to be part of the gaol system (yes GAOL people we are not a minor state of America yet). As soon as they get in rehab until they are completely clean, until that time no visitors and no access to drugs. If you get back on via smuggled drugs back into rehab for you.

Once the drugs are out of the system you can start working on all the other issues. Lack of schooling, skills, discipline. The same system of privileges I suggested for Bimberi could work at the AMC as well.

At no time did I mention training our crooks as soldiers. The training methods can turn undisciplined, fat, lazy, long haired drug smoking hippies into fit, well discplined/trained soldiers. Bit of hard yakka never hurt anyone, except maybe in the ACT where it impinges on my human rights to do work.

Thumper – I dodged Singo as my IET’s were out the back of Greenbank range and at Wide bay. Singo looked luxurious compared to the 10/14 tent we lived in. The choofa’s in the morning were entertaining and it’s an amazing ability to light one of those without losing your eyebrows.

Well, considering that most poeple in the gaol are probably there because of drugs, it would seem prudent to keep them out?

I know, silly idea…

No-one is saying that keeping drugs out is a silly idea. It’s just very, very hard to do, even with strip-searches every time a prisoner lays a fart. It’s just ridiculous to think that doing away with what is essentially a method of preventing the spread of disease will somehow stop drugs getting in.

Addicts don’t use drugs simply because they can get clean needles. Needle exchange programs wouldn’t have been implemented if that were the case.

I get it. Put people in jail for (amongst other illegal and anti-social activities) using drugs, and then assume there is no possibility that drugs can be kept out of jails, so provide them with needles to stab the staff with. How about a hard line approach to illegal drugs – none at all under any circumstances? OOps, no, that would be a betrayal of the human rights of the criminals to break the law. Much better to ignore the human rights of the prison staff to be employed in a safe environment.

As the drugs HAVE always gotten in, or been made inside, there’s a lot to recommend it.

I doubt Mike is aiming for DMD’s vote though, sticking to his guns might well be winning him some friends.

DMD’s argument relies on a flawed assumption that drugs will ALWAYS get in. This will not be the case if guards and visitors are subject to the same search regime as prisoners. Put the guards through scanners and past sniffer dogs on entry and there will be nothing to put in the needles.

I’d back Mike’s experience over DMD’s bombastic know-it-all attitude.

whistle said :

Actually I thought Mike had been a prison officer and knows these issues inside out. Hence his informed position.

Yeah, it’s funny, isn’t it? He has no idea whatsoever! Wonder how he’ll do if he gets voted into the arrrr….A.K.P…Legistlation, umm…parliament or some sh-t.

Removing clean needles will get you HIV running rampant and not get rid of drugs. It kind of actually makes sense too. Dirty smuggled needles + Many users = Dirty Disease. Does he think the needles come with free drugs or something?

and just for the record DMD i’m very willing to listen to mr crowther’s on this subject; i might object to a lot of what he says and certainly wont be voting for him but credit where its due; he does have runs on the board when it comes to prisons.

Sorry tom-tom, but Mike is very accurately quoting Corbell. If you find that embarrassing, then maybe talk to Corbell about changing his position.

Deadheaddrinking writes to Mike that “You do not seem to have a realistic concept of why we have syringe exchange programs in prisons”.

Actually I thought Mike had been a prison officer and knows these issues inside out. Hence his informed position.

back to topic; i’d support a needle exchange because i agree with what DMD said and i dont think its realistic to assume that no needles= no drug use. That said underneath it all mike does have a very important point about officer safety. That problem could be solved by very, very careful supervision (a safe injecting room sort of thing)but then that raises all sorts of issues about management consenting to drug use, (who is responsible if an inmate overdoses etc.)

i guess my point is theres no simple easy solutions, my two cents is that while prisons are horrible boring places filled with druggo’s drugs will always be an issue. a very very carefully supervised injecting room would be the approach i’d take as a means of harm minnimisation.

who wants to be the first to call me a bleeding heart?

Aurelius said :

DMD, I don’t think Mr Crowther likes the idea that every time he speaks up, he loses more votes for his party than he gains. But his petulant behaviour on the site (Captain Kirk dummy-spit), and his authoritarian viewpoints (if any substance can be used negatively, it should be banned) don’t do a lot for CAP’s public image.

If I were him, I wouldn’t be tagging my comments with my political party. I don’t think The-Riotact is a good place for helping your political career, to be honest. It is kind of sad, but politics requires a lot of arse-kissing, compromises to your own personal beliefs and trying to appeal to majorities rather than those who share the same view. All of those cancel what internet debates are really about – saying what you really feel and think, for example.

DMD, I don’t think Mr Crowther likes the idea that every time he speaks up, he loses more votes for his party than he gains. But his petulant behaviour on the site (Captain Kirk dummy-spit), and his authoritarian viewpoints (if any substance can be used negatively, it should be banned) don’t do a lot for CAP’s public image.

Mike,

If you were elected and part of a Government, you’d still need to play the game, and suck up that as far Government portfolio issues go, its generally the dog that wags the tail, not the tail guiding the dog’s steps.

The everyday running and on-the-ground procedure in such the place would be a decision\responsibility of ACT Corrective Services, a part of the ACT Department of Justice and Community Safety.
Ideally all an MLA\Minister should be able to do was call for a review (on using needle exchanges, availablility of fruit, or DoJCS’ interpretation of the ACT Bill of Rights).

As this is the real world, some people in the field might respect your view, but you’d most definitely piss off a fair amount of the public sector by setting such an example, and its a -vdangerously slippery- slope when that kind of thing happens.

Special G said :

It is my understanding people receive some sort of allowance whilst in prison – someone more in the know can correct me on this one. They still maintain their ACT govt house until they get out so someone must be footing the bill.

Not bitching DMD, I had a great time doing my training, it was a challenge. Just making a comparison between the luxuries prison inmates get to have compared to those who choose to put their lives on the line for Australia. Hardships and discipline turned us into soldiers. Luxury and touchy feely approach turns you into – well things don’t change you stay a crook.

That’s great, then. I’m glad you had a good time. We’re not trying to train prisoners to be soldiers however (Although some aspects of boot-camp might work, with certain types of prisoners – in fact, I actually forgot to give you thumbs up for the rewards system in bimberi, although I would rather see that given to actual privelages, not activities that could conceivably provide an alternate release of energy than a violent or criminal release.)

Mike Crowther, I will place the candidate for the CAP as low as I can put them when I vote, purely from the comments you have made here. I find your attitudes towards prisoners nothing short of disgusting and I would seriously fear for the progression of the wider community if your party gains any kind of power.

You do not seem to have a realistic concept of why we have syringe exchange programs in prisons, or why it should be made a priority. It’s to stop the spread of diseases, such as HIV – which if loose can affect many, many members of the community and bring pain and suffering to them, their families and their friends. Without proper needle exchange programs in prisons, they have the potential to become breeding grounds for all nasty kinds of diseases which eventually will leave the prison grounds once the prisoners are released. You also seem to not want prisoners to have access to Vitamins that could strengthen their natural defense systems.

I do not believe you, or your party, if your comments represent their intended policies, should sit on the legislative assembly. This will be on my mind when I vote.

O.

jb; mike does have some very relevant things to say on this issue but what he said was just being dishonest. I find this objectionable because on numerous occaisions mike has made comments about dirty tactics from other parties and i think it is poor form to complain about this while doing the same thing.
(fair enough about no more invective though)

Seeing as Mike’s putting his own name to his statements, and you do not, perhaps you want to be a little careful here?

By all means put the other side of the story but in future you’ll have to use a bit less invective OK?

Mike Crowther said :

Simon Corbel has stated time and again that he is against a needle exchange in prison.. quote: “At this stage..”…“within the next 12-18 months…” and “…in the foreseeable future..”

I think the government’s intentions are clear enough. Too bad for the staff (both custodial and professional) but this so-called ‘Labor’ government has never been particularly bothered with safe working conditions for those it hires.

is anybody going to call Mr Crowther out on this statement?

Corbell makes statements and he selectively quotes them to make it appear as if Corbells statements are the opposite of what he actually said. That is disgusting negative campaigning at its worst and Mr Crowther should be ashamed of himself for this. Pathetic.

campaign on policy not smears mike.

Skidbladnir, in NSW the crooks used to peel back a couple of Vegemite (yeast) sachets, drop them in a bottle of orange juice, bury it till Christmas eve….then suitably bullet proof, would riot at Christmas.

The solution was taking the orange juice out of the system. The crooks could pick up vitamin C supplements from the clinic. (More expensive than juice, but cheaper than the workers comp bill for staff and re-building the wings annually.

The bright young things that have set up the A.M.C. system, having never experienced the exhilarating joy of a prison riot will of course tell you that access to fresh fruit and juice is a human right.

From what I have been told by a friend, and illustrated by an old b3ta video, its almost impossible to stop a dedicated individual from making pruno or ‘prison wine’.
Although why anyone would be so desperate for vomit-flavoured booze escapes me.

And i imagine keeping fruit (of any sweetness) away from prisoners will be against their human rights.

But all these problems won’t exist in the mayor’s utopian facility.

After all, it a human rights approved facility. All is well at the bottom of the garden in Alex’s place.

Needle exchange?

Why not also provide home brew kits so the convicts don’t have to improvise with dodgy gear that might cause blindness?

Or Stanley Knives so they don’t scrape their knuckles sharpening shanks from bics?

Sorry Loquaciousness there are many, many good reasons not to provide a prison needle exchange. Starting with one very dead young officer through to inmates being stood over with blood filled syringes for sexual favors.

And don’t forget, these poor convicts have superb cooking facilities in their politically correct, human rights approved, unbarred rehabilitation units.

But if they can’t work the toaster, there’s a chef on hand (I kid you not) to prepare the culinary delights of their choice. All supposedly to help their rehabilitation by running personal cooking classes.

Mr Lecter would have chortled.

Reprobate said :

I just don’t see the justification for providing a program which acknowledges and validates the use of illicit drugs among the prison community.

This is my point – it’s not validating the use of illicit drugs at all, IMHO. And it’s not just diabetics who use needles, either. What about those on a methodone programme or other drug rehabilitation?

I fully agree that any needle use should be very strictly monitored by prison staff, but there’s no reason not to provide a needle exchange. Mike Crowther raises a good point about drugs being brought in by visitors, but good supervision should overcome this.

Yes, I did jump to a conclusion – I apologise. I’m a diabetic, and the daughter of a diabetic, and I have been tut-tutted at in public toilets so often, I tend to get a little grumpy about it.

Reprobate: Needles in prisons tend to push my buttons having lost a colleague who was intentionally stabbed by one at Long Bay many years ago.

Simon Corbel has stated time and again that he is against a needle exchange in prison.. quote: “At this stage..”…“within the next 12-18 months…” and “…in the foreseeable future..”

I think the government’s intentions are clear enough. Too bad for the staff (both custodial and professional) but this so-called ‘Labor’ government has never been particularly bothered with safe working conditions for those it hires.

In my experience Prison Officers (wardens are an American concept) don’t turn a blind eye to drugs as they make the place more dangerous for everyone, officers and inmates alike. Drugs are brought in mostly by visitors (and this will increase at our gaol as the Govt doesn’t want inmates human rights infringed with lots of nasty searching), professional staff some of whom have a philosophical belief that they are helping the prisoner, and unfortunately, sometimes officers who betray their workmates either for money, or because their family has been threatened.

ACT officers can’t tell you this stuff because they are forbidden to make public comment and their union is never invited to address the ‘lets give the crooks clean syringes’ conferences that this government seems to regularly sponsor.

Mike Crowther
Community Alliance Candidate for
Ginninderra

Drugs in prisons is a problem of corrupt staff.

I bet you’re one of the ones who sees the yellow needle disposal boxes in the public loos and complains it’s supporting the druggies too, aren’t you?

L

Err, no L, not at all, but thank you for jumping to a conclusion about me based on your own prejudices. I have no problem with either the safe disposal boxes OR clean needle exchange programs in the general community. I just don’t see the justification for providing a program which acknowledges and validates the use of illicit drugs among the prison community. The number of legitimate uses for clean syringes in a prison must be small (diabetics etc) and could surely be managed without providing a free-for-all approach.

Aurelius said :

Interesting how this logic works. It’s kind of envy-politics.
If you think their life inside’s so cushy, why don’t you book yourself a room?

Indeed. I’m not planning on booking myself a room any time soon.

Reprobate said :

Oh, and what’s the go with needle exchanges in prisons?

There’s plenty of legal reasons why needles might be in use, and frankly they’re better off with a hygienic and safe method of doing so.

I bet you’re one of the ones who sees the yellow needle disposal boxes in the public loos and complains it’s supporting the druggies too, aren’t you?

L

Interesting how this logic works. It’s kind of envy-politics.
If you think their life inside’s so cushy, why don’t you book yourself a room?

Agree with neanderthalsis 100%. This really strikes me as another grand leftie-hand wringer theory that falls to pieces in the real world, like the Radburn housing plan in Charnwood. I don’t buy the line that their deprivation from “polite society” for the term of their sentence is punishment enough. They will still have visiting rights, they will still be socialising 24/7 with the sort of people they would normally hang out with by choice anyway, and I’m sure that our s0ftc0ck judiciary will consider early parole for their trauma of being held against their will. Diddums.

Oh, and what’s the go with needle exchanges in prisons? Call me naive, but why – and more importantly, how – do drugs get into these facilities anyway? I have heard that wardens turn a blind eye to drug use as it makes their life easier to have prisoners chilled out rather than threatening to rip their heads off. But really, mixed messages…

Many of the future guests at Johns Big House are the type of recidivist vermin that generally believe society owes them a living. It is unfortunate that our judiciary (and our current govt) are far left leaning, wet-behind-the-ears pinkos who believe that the crims have had a hard life and someone needs to nicely show them the errors of their ways by housing them in pleasant surrounds with meals on tap, TV, sports and all the good things in life and the occasional session to tell them that drugs are bad, mmmmkay.

A grand new prison pandering to the “rights” of those deemed to be unsuitable for interaction with society is just perpetuating social dependency and the cycle of crime by not enforcing strong discipline, social morals and a sense of common decency. Rehabilitate them by all means, teach them skills that will enable them to get a job upon release, teach them the value of possessions as a privilege, not a right.

Break the cycle of recidivism by giving them self discipline and skills, not a comfy bed and a playstation.

I still struggle to get my head around the use of “criminals” and “human rights” in the same sentence.

someoneincanb said :

How proud should we be that the best government-funded services in the ACT are prisons?

oh, so proud.

at least when people waiting in long queues at TCH and calvary to see a doctor in the ED riot, we will have somewhere to put em…

How proud should we be that the best government-funded services in the ACT are prisons?

Maybe it’s a brilliant ploy to turn tough nuts into softies, so we can all handle them easier when they decide to rob us. We don’t want crims as tough as soldiers.

Special G said :

It is my understanding people receive some sort of allowance whilst in prison – someone more in the know can correct me on this one. They still maintain their ACT govt house until they get out so someone must be footing the bill.

Not bitching DMD, I had a great time doing my training, it was a challenge. Just making a comparison between the luxuries prison inmates get to have compared to those who choose to put their lives on the line for Australia. Hardships and discipline turned us into soldiers. Luxury and touchy feely approach turns you into – well things don’t change you stay a crook.

as did I.

though Airforce Cannon fodder is a bit different, still a blue grunt though.

re the public housing allocation, they should be de-allocated and have to hit the queue again. no point having a house sit vacant when there are families crammed into bad living conditions in a small unit….

It is my understanding people receive some sort of allowance whilst in prison – someone more in the know can correct me on this one. They still maintain their ACT govt house until they get out so someone must be footing the bill.

Not bitching DMD, I had a great time doing my training, it was a challenge. Just making a comparison between the luxuries prison inmates get to have compared to those who choose to put their lives on the line for Australia. Hardships and discipline turned us into soldiers. Luxury and touchy feely approach turns you into – well things don’t change you stay a crook.

I have to agree with SG. Sure he chose to serve in our forces, and good on you for doing that, but this type of “schooling” should be impletmented in these rehab institutes. They’re not in there for a holiday at our expense, sure, they can’t go futher than the compound, well, boo bloody hoo. Many of them have had the chance to right themselves, as our court system has shown, and there is plenty of resources for doing so, but why should me, the hard working tax payer foot the bill for club med? If you’re in the system, you’re priveliges,eg. tv, roast dinners, etc, should be revoked. Bread and water fellas. What’s that? Butter? Sorry, privelige.

Special G said :

So the time I spent locked up, living in a tent, getting beasted every morning until I was ready to pass out, hard labour everyday and plenty of nights as well was against human rights principles. More likely just called basic infantry training.

The prison systems attempts at rehabilitation is a joke. Start with drug rehab – then get onto some imposed discipline and once they can show self discipline and that they are rehabilitated (demonstatrated life skills/employment skills) then let them out. Sentences are maximum and reduced by the prisoner themselves. If they prove not to be rehabilitated then they stay at her majestys pleasure.

Didn’t you get paid for that basic training? Weren’t you doing it for your own personal benefit. If the army is too hard for you – don’t do it and don’t b*tch.

So the time I spent locked up, living in a tent, getting beasted every morning until I was ready to pass out, hard labour everyday and plenty of nights as well was against human rights principles. More likely just called basic infantry training.

The prison systems attempts at rehabilitation is a joke. Start with drug rehab – then get onto some imposed discipline and once they can show self discipline and that they are rehabilitated (demonstatrated life skills/employment skills) then let them out. Sentences are maximum and reduced by the prisoner themselves. If they prove not to be rehabilitated then they stay at her majestys pleasure.

I’m all for rehabilitation under the right circumstances.

However, it seems that the persons who think it is important that prisons (whether for adults or juveniles) are able to rehabilitate their prisoners are missing an important point.

People who end up in such institutions as a result of a conviction have 99% of the time been before the courts several times before. I’d like to know how many 1st time offenders have been sent to prison in the last few years (well, even 2nd, 3rd, 4th time offenders in the ACT at least…). I suspect I could count the number on one hand.

My point being, people who end up in prison (not remanded in custody awaiting trial etc) have usually been given plenty of prior chances by the court to rehabilitate themselves. They haven’t done so, therefore they have ended up in prison.

I can’t help but think that focusing the AMC on ‘rehabilitation’ is rather pointless.

Ralph said :

I am absolutely disgusted by this facility.

How about the rights of the victims? The people who have been bashed, murdered, raped, and had their houses robbed.

The maggots going into this ‘rehabilitation facility’ have lost their rights. They have no rights to sports facilities, TVs, board games, art. Bread and water is all they deserve.

While the rest of us are out working to pay for mortgages/rent, food, dental and medical. These people get three squares a day, a roof over their head and medical dental all provided courtesy of taxpayers. At the very least these people should be put to work maintaining public facilities like parks and roads. Chain ’em up and put them to work.

Keep voting Labor, dip shits.

Yes, we all work very hard to be locked up 24/7 in our homes, don’t we? None of us get medicare either. We would never get any money did we not work. None at all.

They had to hold the opening today, as to hold it tomorrow would have clashed with that very momentous event, the grand opening of the DFO shops.

I am absolutely disgusted by this facility.

How about the rights of the victims? The people who have been bashed, murdered, raped, and had their houses robbed.

The maggots going into this ‘rehabilitation facility’ have lost their rights. They have no rights to sports facilities, TVs, board games, art. Bread and water is all they deserve.

While the rest of us are out working to pay for mortgages/rent, food, dental and medical. These people get three squares a day, a roof over their head and medical dental all provided courtesy of taxpayers. At the very least these people should be put to work maintaining public facilities like parks and roads. Chain ’em up and put them to work.

Keep voting Labor, dip shits.

And how many of these recidivist criminals will show any respect for human rights next time they terrorise an elderly person during a home invasion, or ruin a struggling small business by stealing cash and assets, or brutalist some poor bugger and leave them in a pool of blood in Civic?

How many play stations, TVs, artworks, sports fields and tennis courts does it take to make a “human rights” prison?

Stanhope spares no cash on his hobbyhorse obsessions, but has no hestitation in selling the community short on basic services.

And what about human rights for the victims of crime? This government really has its priorities arse about face!

“the first Australian prison built according to human rights principles.”

makes it sound like a free range chook farm.

what a lovely website

It is well behind schedule. Don’t expect any prisoners for a while although the Government will be under pressure to get prisoners in there before Christmas, however they are more likely to be the well behaved and low risk prisoners. I woulsn’t mind betting that it won’t be fully operational until next year.