The return of the IVF compo case

I only believe in gay marriage when both chicks are hot.

Myself said :

I meant, “How can two same sex adults”

Yeah, no, we get it. You’re an idiot.

I meant, “How can two same sex adults”

Muttsybignuts, I’m with you all the way with your latest post. I would like people to please consider the following….

The human being cannot exist without equilibrium. ie: balance. Life and the universe, decrees that there shall be a balance for all forces. So I ask, how can balance be achieved when your child tells their friends that they have 2 moms or 2 dads. A common response is that “we will home school our children”. How the hell does that make them fit into and be a normal part of society ?. Wether we like it or not, this situation is not normal. I said it before, how many same sex animals do you see having offspring ??????????

The answer is “none”.

How can two adults who either by personal choice or by genetic disposition bring up a child in a balanced way within our modern society ?.

I love you too, Pandy!

: )

All of this because of a “couple” who could not have their designer lifestyle. If you want to ream me about my opinions, why not ream
this “couple” about their dumb ass life choices……………………. ?

Granny, I luv u

Maybe I started out on the wrong foot. I didn’t set out to offend anyone. I just made a statement regarding the original topic.
For the record I have no problem with IVF. We have attempted it several times.
I have no problem with same sex couples. My sister is gay and I love her and her partner a great deal.
I definitely do not have a problem with people with disabilities. I have worked in a Canberra service that supports severely disabled people for the past 16 years.
I am a little surprised at the venom that comes out so easily on this forum but I guess if it makes people happy then so be it.
Namaste

Muttsybignuts

Myself said :

As for disability-hating, I don’t hate disabilities. I just would like the option of avoiding them when it comes to my own kids.

Kids deserve unconditional love. If you can’t offer them that, how dare you bring them into the world! Heaven forbid they should have a car accident and be brain-damaged, ’cause you sure as hell won’t be there for them. You’ll no longer love them. No longer care for them. Run out on them. A fairweather parent is not a fit parent. Period.

Please children. No name calling or Father John will yield a big schtick

I’m not in a position to deny anybody of anything. This is a free world apparently.

Muttsybignuts said :

Granny you are so easily offended! Maybe you need a thinker skin.

Maybe you need a thinker brain.

Myself said :

I can only thank time for the fact that my head wont get chopped off.

A courtesy you would deny those less fortunate than yourself.

Granny you are so easily offended! Maybe you need a thinker skin. If comments on a message board make you feel sick maybe you should go to bed earlier. I hope you feel better in the morning.

Granny, I’m not homophobic for starters. I have plenty to back that up. As for disability-hating, I don’t hate disabilities. I just would like the option of avoiding them when it comes to my own kids. I have done a lot for people with disabilities of all types. I even have awards to prove it.

mwah Granny

I’ve learnt one thing from this forum. That is, that if you think or believe outside of the “norm”, keep your mouth shut.

For a modern, civilized and open minded society, we sure behave like we are in the dark ages. I can only thank time
for the fact that my head wont get chopped off.

Well, Muttsybignuts, I’ll leave you to stay and play with your nice little disability-hating homophobic troll friend because both of you make me sick to the stomach.

Vg, I know how you feel. If I could I would hug you. They’re not worth moderation. Jessieduck, I adore you!

: )

Love,
Granny

Myself said :

Maybe you and the rest of the population are either on drugs or are to pre occupied with other things other than whats going on around them. Thats how collisions happen.

Please go away and die.

Granny said :

Muttsybignuts said :

So nasty…

Yep!

I wouldn’t like to be angry all the time. My hair would fall out ( if I had any).

Muttsybignuts said :

So nasty…

Yep!

VG, I don’t sit at traffic lights in a daze. In actual fact I keep a very very aware state of what is going on around me. If I have to run the red to stay alive, I will.

Maybe you and the rest of the population are either on drugs or are to pre occupied with other things other than whats going on around them. Thats how collisions happen.

Hey, more importantly than this to and fro, how did I go from “newbie” to “troublemaker”? Is it a number of posts thing or someones’ opinion?

Why give IVF children to Lesbians or single mothers?

So nasty…

Okay, I’m convinced. Stupid people really do exist.

How is this challenging?

Granny, I’ll be blatantly honest. I know full well that I’m perceived to be a few cents short of a dollar. I know what I want in life but I also don’t want a lonely existence. So, a balance has to be achieved. I’m entitled to my opinion as long as I don’t break the law. Wether I agree with the law or not.

As for committing infanticide, if i could do it legally, I would if I perceived the infant to have a negative impact on our future.
Within the confines of the law and the society’s views, I would stick it out until I had the opportunity to get out. If that makes me a bad person, then so be it.

What percentage of the community’s couples live the perfect existence. You know what !, very few do. I challenge our readers to go away and actually think about how fulfilling their lonely or partnered existence is.

If I’m to be hung drawn and quartered because I believe that mother nature has it right, then so be it. I’m entitled to that opinion.

Maybe if I was in Salem, i’d be dunked and drowned……….. ?

There’s not enough discrimination and bigotry kicking our kids when they’re down. We need more! Bring it on! Life isn’t hard enough already. Hell, we need more of a challenge ….

Please relax vg. I only popped on to see how the thread was going. I merely commented that not all kids with disabilities are loved. As I said, sad but true. And just as sad if any child is given up.
I’m sorry if you get off on arguing on the internet. It isn’t my thing.

What vg said.

Some kids without a disability are loved with a passion. Others are still given up at birth. Sad but true.

Muttsybignuts said :

Granny said :

What if your child is born with a disability? Will even that not change your views? What if you think you have a normal, healthy baby and then at about six months of age everything starts to go wrong? What if this person you love with all your heart is suddenly embroiled in a nightmare that won’t quit?

If you think that won’t change your views, think again. Children with a disability are loved with a passion by their parents and mourned and missed by many in the community when they pass.

Some kids with a disability are loved with a passion. Others are still given up at birth. Sad but true.

As are many children born without a disability. Your point being?

Myself said :

VG, who would build a house in a position that makes it most likely to get hit by lightning ??????????
As for a tree falling on a car, you still have time if your not off in a daze. I personally know people who have avoided this exact
method of death. No matter how you put it, we are ultimately responsible for our futures or lack there of.

Tell me this post is a wind up

In fact it is so stupid and beyond adult comprehension that I won’t do it the dignity of a response.

“you still have time if your not off in a daze”

Oh my freakin’ hat! Do you sit at a set of traffic lights thinking you should remain i nthe ultimate state of awareness lest the wind strikes up and suddenly brings down a nearby tree on you

Granny said :

What if your child is born with a disability? Will even that not change your views? What if you think you have a normal, healthy baby and then at about six months of age everything starts to go wrong? What if this person you love with all your heart is suddenly embroiled in a nightmare that won’t quit?

If you think that won’t change your views, think again. Children with a disability are loved with a passion by their parents and mourned and missed by many in the community when they pass.

Some kids with a disability are loved with a passion. Others are still given up at birth. Sad but true.

So you wouldn’t commit infanticide, but you’d desert your child and partner? Big of you.

Such a friendly place! It is great to see that if you have a different opinion to the clique you are attacked on all fronts.

VG, who would build a house in a position that makes it most likely to get hit by lightning ??????????
As for a tree falling on a car, you still have time if your not off in a daze. I personally know people who have avoided this exact
method of death. No matter how you put it, we are ultimately responsible for our futures or lack there of.

….and as for more fulfilling life. Couldn’t give a rats how ‘fulfilling’ yours is. Matters not a jot to me. Mine is tremendous for me though, but I don’t have to brag

Myself

Let me start by saying that if there is one person on this forum you shouldn’t try to discuss the causes of fires and accidents with it is me. I’ve spent the last 20 years investigating them.

Riddle me this, a house gets hit by lightning, catches fire and burns to the ground. Which particular human error caused that one Einstein? 2 people sitting in a car at a set of lights. Wind blows hard, tree falls on car, 2 people dead. Which human error caused that one.

Sorry, but you are an abject moron

Granny, there are laws that I will abide with. But nothing is in place to force me to hang around.

VG. Let me say first and foremost, house fires are always the result of human error. I can demonstrate many a valid example.
Secondly, there are no such things as car accidents. There are only car collisions and they are always the the result of human error. ALWAYS.

We humans are not perfect. Those that think they are, are kidding themselves and are a danger to society.

Since when is anyone reading this forum, so perfect in their humanity or biology, that they can pass judgement on anyone. You know what, none of us are.

Have your ideas and opinions about me and others. Lets see who has the more fulfilling life……. ?

If you aren’t ‘superior’ then how come mother nature chose not to ‘abort’ you? Are you just average? How did she check to see if you were worth aborting.

As the relative of a person with, what you so crudely put as, ‘spastication’ you should count yourself very, very lucky we aren’t sitting in the same room right now

What if your child is born with a disability? Will even that not change your views? What if you think you have a normal, healthy baby and then at about six months of age everything starts to go wrong? What if this person you love with all your heart is suddenly embroiled in a nightmare that won’t quit?

If you think that won’t change your views, think again. Children with a disability are loved with a passion by their parents and mourned and missed by many in the community when they pass.

Some disabilities don’t manifest until near adulthood and when keyboards are touched. Post #48 exemplifies this

I’m not superior in any way, shape or form. My hat goes off to those with greater determination, guts, and more idealism than I have.

Readers of this forum will have their views of me and nothing will change my views. Time will be the ultimate decider.

If the child is spasticated in anyway shape or form, abort and try again

Apart from the completely offensive word you have created, you need a biology lesson buddy. Some children have disabilities that cannot be diagnosed in utero – indeed some conditions like Cerebral Pausy are thought to only manifest in the perinatal period.

Parenthood – like many aspects of life – is a bit of a lucky dip, and it’s apparent that neither you nor the lesbians in question have worked this out yet.

“Nature makes sure people like me are not aborted for a reason”

Even Mother Nature makes inexplicable errors some times, but please explain exactly how nature makes sure ‘people like you’ aren’t aborted.

Then explain that rationale against a perfectly healthy child that dies in the womb in something like, lets say, a car accident or house fire.

I’d be interested to hear how your naturally selected brain gets around that one

Well, Myself, you may think you’re superior to the “lesbians” and “spasticated” of the world, but maybe Mother “Nature” is trying to give you a gentle hint not to breed ….

Hey Granny, Nature makes sure people like me are not aborted for a reason. It’s my job to shake up the likes of people like you.
Wether you agree or not, no matter how much we humans try, good old mother nature will sort us out. She has the final say.

If the child is spasticated in anyway shape or form, abort and try again.

Batten down the hatches, buddy…

“Nature” also results in “spasticated” people, you know … or even worse, it occasionally results in people like you that were unfortunately not aborted.

Further to my previous comment and re-reading of everyone else’s comments, I have this to say.

What would this “couple” have done if only one child came out and it was an “abomination”…? Would they have sued for life long
maintenance of a “disabled” child ? What would have happened if both babies were still born ?. Would it be the doctors fault ?

Berate me if you like but at the end of the day, we need to look at nature for a realistic approach to life. My wife and I are going through IVF and all I have said is this. If the child is spasticated in anyway shape or form, abort and try again. Nature does it this way without even thinking about it. So………

My next question is, how many same sex animals do you see bearing children. The answer is NONE. So why do human beings feel the need to defy nature ……. ?

Life and Karma will deal with this “couple”. It always does. Nature will strike back.

How can you determine that you only have enough love for one……. TWIN.

Bloody hell, which came first……..

As someone who has been unsuccessfully been going through IVF for 5 years this couple and their heartless grab for money make me sick. We just want 1 child of our own and this pair of “dirty oxygen thieving moo cows” ( I like it!) aren’t happy that their designer life style had been interrupted because, god forbid, they have 2 children who they obviously don’t have time to love.
Sadly this is all about money. These moles have turned their children into a tool for milking the system.

Dirty, oxygen thieving moo cows.

If she is unable to love her children because of her lost capacity to love, then hopefully care and protection are keeping an eye on them.

I find myself in the difficult position of agreeing entirely with Cletus 2!

Was our tezza involved with the decision?

What the decision doesn’t address is why carpet munchers should even have access to IVF. These dykes just want a fashion piece to parade in front of their friends at the mardi gras. Two isn’t convenient.

Gobbo said :

A newspaper is reporting the following on this case:

During the initial proceedings, the ACT Supreme Court heard that following the twins’ birth, the mother had lost her capacity to love.

The couple’s relationship had also suffered as they became mired in everyday tasks associated with raising two children.

My heart truly bleeds. Show me one couple who hasn’t been a bit “mired in everyday tasks” when they have given birth and hav to raise kids.

Welcome to the world, ladies. It aint a picnic. (Though you seem to have found your pot of gold at the end of Dr A’s rainbow.)

No apprently they thought that one child could raise itself while they did Coffe and Cake in Lygon St. So now not only do they get paid for having children, but if their evidence in court is true, the ‘mother’ doesn’t really love the children anyway, since she has now “lost her capcity for love”.

I’m not making any judgement about the particular facts of this case, because I haven’t seen them. It’s quite possible that the doctor was trying to do the right thing here, and an honest mistake was made by someone.

What I am saying is that the question is about doctors respecting patients wishes, and that doesn’t change just because babies are involved.

Hmmm I think all doctors with such a request in the future will provide 1 x turkey baster and a convenient squeeze pack of sperm..

Ah – the wisdom of Justice Higgins. When will common sense prevail. Both courts should have told the mothers to suck it up and be grateful.

Geez – people have to travel to other countries to hopefully end up with one child – and these two were treated by a spectacular doc who did his job. They then had the fortune to have two healthy babies in a safe and prosperous country like Aus.

They really should move to the USA where everything that happens can be blamed on someone else. They’ll fit right in over there….

dr A told us prior to the embryo implantation, a month before, in fact, there is a greater chance of success with the implantation of 2 embryos. If we chose to only put one in, it halved the success rate. we had to make the decision and stick to it then and there. we chose 2, and have 2 wonderful, healthy little boys now. He did mention that once the embryos were ready for implantation, they couldn’t be re-frozen, as this might cause damage to the embryo.

we made our decision, and we are happy we did. I know of many, many couples on ivf who go back, cycle after cycle, and get nothing. some have been trying for many, many years. the couple mentioned here will do more damage for other same sex parents – many ivf practitioners will probably steer clear of them….

A newspaper is reporting the following on this case:

During the initial proceedings, the ACT Supreme Court heard that following the twins’ birth, the mother had lost her capacity to love.

The couple’s relationship had also suffered as they became mired in everyday tasks associated with raising two children.

My heart truly bleeds. Show me one couple who hasn’t been a bit “mired in everyday tasks” when they have given birth and hav to raise kids.

Welcome to the world, ladies. It aint a picnic. (Though you seem to have found your pot of gold at the end of Dr A’s rainbow.)

Caf in some states you can’t sue for the unwanted birth of a healthy child (wrongful birth). So some jurisdictions have decided it is immoral to sue for a healthy baby. (Usually in the case of a failed vasectomy.)

Caf, it has nothing to do with the fact that they’re lesbians and everything to do with how ungrateful and treacherous they have been to the person who cared enough to try and help them with their plight of childlessness.

Caf – the facts aren’t in dispute. The original judgment sets them out pretty clearly -sadly Austlii seems to be down at the moment so I can’t look it up (or the appeal judgment either). They orginally wanted two embryos, IVF technician prepared two and put them in the tube, Dr Armellin asked patient -tube in hand – ‘are we putting in one or two?’ and patient who had subsequently changed her mind, replied “only one”. Dr Armellin assumed that there was only one in the tube, and assumed that the patient had told someone else that she wanted only one. He didn’t check with the technician what was in the tube and so went ahead and did the implantation.

This pair of selfish cows must now rate below the lowest trailer trash and only marginally above arsonists in social acceptability. The decision to award such filth some of society’s hard-earned money is to my mind equivalent to awarding a pair of blowflies $300,000 for not putting a visible deterrent on flyscreens. I have more respect for a dengue fever-carrying mosquito on the prowl in Nth Queensland than I could ever muster for these two selfish caricatures of human beings.

If you wanted a nose job, but signed a form saying “I consent to having a nose job and an eyebrow lift just in case the nose job doesn’t hold”, and then told the doctor “No, just the nose job” just minutes before surgery, its your own damn fault.

They would probably also be whinging if they got their wish for one implant, and the only embryo they verbally requested didn’t hold, because they had a signed agreement saying implant two.

This really has nothing to do with the morals of declaring a child to be unwanted, and still less to do with lesbianism.

What it’s really about is this: The woman alleges that she asked the doctor to implant only one embryo and he went ahead and implanted two anyway. Now, I don’t know whether that’s true or not – it certainly sounds like there’s considerable doubt about the facts in this case. But if it is true, I think it’s entirely appropriate that she should be able to get some restitution. Doctors should not act against the expressed wishes of the patient – if you ask for a nose job, and wake up with your ears pinned as well, you’d be rightfully pretty pissed.

vg said :

I’d love to be a fly on the wall when these selfish creatures have to try and explain to one or both of the children how they sued their doctor because one of them was a ‘mistake’.

But then again I’m guessing that neither will ever have the intestinal fortitude to do it after they look back with shame on what they did.

You can just imagine the arguments between the kids: “Mummy, she’s saying I’m the unwanted embryo again. Make her stop!”

Scum. Total scum.

Dr A was a godsend to me after the loss of my first child and certainly has assisted me in the years following.

It did seem that the clinic consent procedures could have been tightened up.

But I still think this couple contributed enormously to the error.

They originally signed a piece of paper authorising ‘up to two embryos’.
Yet somehow when two were transferred it totally ruined their lives.

They didn’t answer calls from the clinic in the lead-up to the procedure, trying to establish how many embryos to transfer.

They didn’t tell the clinic what they wanted on the day of the procedure.

The woman didn’t seem to have told her partner how many embryos she wanted transferred.

She didn’t make her wishes known until she was on the table about to go under general anaesthetic.

For mine, they should have won the case, but been awarded 100.00 dollars, and had their names published.

I am also really confused about how they were desperate to have one child, yet having two has totally ruined their lives. The chance of twins is always possible however you conceive. I really think this pair should not have had children.

Yah! Boo! Sucks!

Raspberry Wooden Spoon Award for the most sucky court decision ever in a Canberra compo case ….

I’m tempted to sky-write it in 2400 feet tall letters … BOOOOOOO!!

Dr Armellin is a great Dr.
He was our O/G for all three kids.
Before our first he was telling me that his liability premiums were over $50k,
and that was 12 years ago!
Most people who need IVF are just glad to get a kid, 2 would be a bonus !
I suppose their next step will be to track down the anonymous Danish sperm donor and hit him up for maintenance!

harvyk1 said :

If you’ve ever wanted proof that some people just should not have kids, this is it.

Couldn’t agree more. It was never about kids, it was about money and greed and their ‘lifestyle’. Too bad for the all the poepl out there who can’t have kids. so long as these two get paid for theirs.

Shauno – no one said the good doctor would be paying but up go the insurance premiums and someone has to pay them. Yet again the judicial system in this town is exposed as a touchy feely incompetent ass.

Actually, they’ve been awarded $317 000 *PLUS* costs.

From what I read during the previous hearings, admin and consent procedures at the clinic seemed pretty lassaiz-faire.

I’m pretty sure I met these women and their twins once.

I still have a gnawing feeling of nausea that they would sue.

Or adopted the ‘unwanted’ child out to one of the many, many couples who desperately want a child, but can’t have one. I have a number of friends who are unable to have kids (despite years and years of trying), and if this courtcase makes me sick to my stomach, imagine how they must feel.

I feel sorry for those poor children. They’ll wonder which one of them was wanted and which one wasn’t.

Besides, if the ‘mother’ (and I use the word loosely) didn’t want twins, she could have had a procedure to remove one – like they do with larger multiple births or better yet, she could have been thankful that she was able to get pregnant at all without compromising her sexual preferences.

What a pair of money hungry cows.

Costs wont be coming out of the Docs pocket should all be covered by his insurance I would imagine.

It churns me the whole thing, Dr Armellin is a top guy, had dealings with him over 10 years ago, who’s to say that these two didn’t scam the whole thing a get a free ride out of it, I think I recall a comment in the past case saying it would ruin their social life. Do you think now that one child will be the favorite and the other hated..!! Or do we just hate them both now, cause our perfectly planned lives have been delt a blow!!!

How do you think others that have tried for years to have and seriously love children feel when they see and read about these two.

Does anyone know how a court privacy order works? From a legal point of view I mean? If I was to say their name right now (and I’m not, I have no idea what it is, nor am really that interested) would I be charged?

I am simply curious about the law. You don’t have to be a newspaper editor to reach thousands of people these days.

It’s ****ing morons like these, aside from giving humanity a bad name and wasting my oxygen, who drive up the cost of insurance, ultimately passed down to the consumer or resulting in venues or activites simply closing down completely. We’re all paying these two clowns their 300k.

But the real morons are the ones who made the decision.

Hopefully some mandated reporter will file a report with Child Protective Services that the lawsuit is prima facie evidence of emotional abuse. These people don’t deserve to have children!

And Dr Armellin may think about retiring, despite Canberra’s chronic shortage of obstetricians (like all medical services in the ACT.)

Does this mean they got their costs reimbursed but no compo for the child they didn’t want? Or is there still compo to come?

This case is the ultimate in selfishness.

Obstetrician fees will go up yet again as their insurance goes up yet again.
Lesbian access to IVF will be debated again.
IVF doctors will decline to transfer two embryos in future.
And these women’s poor little daughters will be very confused when they find out about all this one day.

Vic Bitterman said :

(VB)”… such an attitude of theirs sickens me. What values will they instill in these poor kids?”

Hopefully a litigious attitude. They can then sue their parents.

They don’t deserve any children let alone any money the way they have acted. I feel sorry for their childen who have to put up with parents (loosely put) like this. What’s worse is the continued idiocy coming from judges like this. I hope the doctor is able to appeal again.

vg said :

I’d love to be a fly on the wall when these selfish creatures have to try and explain to one or both of the children how they sued their doctor because one of them was a ‘mistake’.

Well said mate, such an attitude of theirs sickens me. What values will they instill in these poor kids?

Remind me to sue Ansell next time a condom breaks.

How terrible that the appeal was succesful. It’s certainly not how the law should treat this matter.

What an utterly selfish and miserable pair these two are! I agree with harvyk1 at post #3, some people shouldn’t have, nor do they deserve, kids.

I don’t think they are capable of shame… along with several other human feelings.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall when these selfish creatures have to try and explain to one or both of the children how they sued their doctor because one of them was a ‘mistake’.

But then again I’m guessing that neither will ever have the intestinal fortitude to do it after they look back with shame on what they did.

If you’ve ever wanted proof that some people just should not have kids, this is it.

Looks like they’ve won this time around according to the ABC.

Dr Armellin is not retired- he still has a thriving O&G practice (we’re still in the midst of a baby boom).

As for the case itself, I’m not surprised they are appealing as, by my reading of the Judgement, they very nearly won.