The spectre of the VFT rises again

Canberra to Melbourne or Canberra to Sydney return in a day is already very possible using planes, at an extremely cheap price, the example you give of high paying contractors being willing to part with $150 to $200 per day in commuting costs would still be few and far between (and some of those would still catch planes just because). What needs to happen is the infrastructure be upgraded at either end which would make it more than possible to commute on a daily basis between these 3 cities (aka no long taxi lines, and whilst Sydney has got something going with it’s airport link, Melbourne is lacking big time, and Skybus doesn’t hack it, as for Canberra…). The problem isn’t the bit in the middle between the various cities themselves, it’s the bit between the airports and the city centres which need a good overhaul. (I know it’s not what train buffs want to hear).

If you want to convince me otherwise show me one other country which is the same size as Australia (ok lets shorten that to the eastern corridor) with a similar population which has been able to get a maglev system up and running efficiently?

JC said :

The problem with Maglev technology is it is not compatibile with existing lines (so poses difficulties getting into city centres such as Sydney), it is very costly and the speed advantage is not all that much greater than modern steel wheel technology. On paper an extra 150km/h seems a lot, but in practice it isn’t especially for the cost.

Sure but steel wheel is near it’s max whereas maglev is just beginning so has much further to grow in the future.

If you want a bit of light reading have a look at the East Coast Very High Speed Train Scoping Study Phase 1 – Preliminary Study Final Report (be warned it’s 42 MB PDF) from 2002. It does a brief analysis of the various corridors including Sydney/Canberra.

The way I see it is it’s not the end to end run that’s the important one, but the parts closer to each end. eg live in Goulburn, come to Canberra for work each day, or for a shopping trip, or a night out etc. The end to end run is just an added bonus. The other thing is they would have to run frequently enough to make them useful to as many people as possible.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

The whole point is that it doesn’t have to be as fast as flying (airport to airport), it just just has to be as fast as city centre to city centre. Once you take taxis each way and faffing around at the airport out of the equation, I reckon getting central Canberra to central Sydney in 2 hours would be fine. Canberra to Sydney is what – 250kms? Even with a couple a quick stops a train that could reliably average 160km/h would probably be fast enough.

And if it could be done for reasonable prices (ie less than $100 a seat), it would get a pretty good following. I’d use it over flying any day.

Whilst you are right about travel times, the problem with Canberra/Sydney is the existing line cannot be upgraded to 160km/h. So you would need a new line so may as well that bit more and go for 350km/h, using steel on steel of course. In Canberra it should terminate in the City not at the airport, so bring it in near Watson and put it under Northbourne and build a tram on top when finished.

The problem with Maglev technology is it is not compatibile with existing lines (so poses difficulties getting into city centres such as Sydney), it is very costly and the speed advantage is not all that much greater than modern steel wheel technology. On paper an extra 150km/h seems a lot, but in practice it isn’t especially for the cost.

Rudd should have built a VFT instead of repainting school halls and buying people new TVs

We had a once in a lifetime opportunity (huge government surplus waiting to be spent at the same time as the biggest economic downturn since the 1930s) and it’s been blown without much to show for it except that we’ve avoided a “technical recession” by boosting retail spending for one quarter.

They’ve been talking about this since i was a kid too. Surely this means it is inevitable.

It’ll never happen. They’ve been talking about this idea for 30 years.

they’ve been talking about this since i was a kid.\

it will never happen.

RandomGit said :

Underground, in a brave new world, with just a handful of men, they can start all over again.

Haha, awesome!

Yes Skidd

But Syd and Melb do have the populations – and putting the line via Canberra is viable if the run is from Syd to Melb….

A Syd to Canb line only would indeed be useless….

Trains are cool, no doubt about it, and a MagLev one would be great. But with airfares consistently between $25 and $50 for a flight from Canberra to Melbourne, I don’t know if there would be much market for it!

Skidd Marx said :

I was wondering when this retarded idea would resurface.

The bottom line is we don’t have the population to sustain such a radical and astronomically costly undertaking.

Now lets move on and get back to making cars fly…

I agree, a Sydney to Canberra VFT is not viable. But I would think that a Melb – Can – Sydney line with extensions to Newcastle – Gold Coast – Brisbane would be viable… especially in 10 -15 years (the time it would probably take to build this) when our fuel prices will continue to increase & population grows – especially along the east coast.

There is also the economic benefit of job creation in building the actual line. I would say that this project (if it ever happens) would rival the Snowy Mountains Scheme in terms of nation building.

Either way, there is no harm in actually getting a study to show us the pros & cons of the project… especially its viability.

I was wondering when this retarded idea would resurface.

The bottom line is we don’t have the population to sustain such a radical and astronomically costly undertaking.

Now lets move on and get back to making cars fly…

johnboy said :

Generally the trains enclose the track, there’s no daylight.

Have a look at the photos on the wiki page.

This wiki page is a better one, first photo on right
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transrapid

look further down and you’ll see a fmailiar one 🙂

Danman said :

RandomGit said :

In the cellar was a tunnel scarcely ten yards long, that had taken him a week to dig. I could have dug that much in a day, and I suddenly had my first inkling of the gulf between his dreams and his powers.

ah ha, that’s what that was from! Now I recognise it.

I think a decent, common garden modern train service is the go. One that can take people AND stuff. Long haul bulk truck transport is a disaster and it’s a disgrace they dug up train lines everywhere. Remember, we pay for those roads the trucks are on, and they are what messes up the roads, making holes and lumps and bumps needing fixing.

RandomGit said :

Underground, in a brave new world, with just a handful of men, they can start all over again.

In the cellar was a tunnel scarcely ten yards long, that had taken him a week to dig. I could have dug that much in a day, and I suddenly had my first inkling of the gulf between his dreams and his powers.

Sounds very Stanhopian huh ?

So what we need is not some exotic passenger service, we need good old fashioned double track electrified rail all the way to Sydney via Goulburn.

Which would, incidentally, make for a much, much better passenger service too.

timgee2007 said :

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Although at an hour, it would be viable to live in Canberra and commute to Sydney for work.

Uh yeah – at $100 a seat?

Coulda sworn I read a whole lot of whinging and whining around here about the price of an adult bus ticket going up 80c to $3.80…so as long as the VFT, BFT or Cbr-Syd monorail can get you from city (centre) to city (centre) in under an hour and for less than $3.80, it’ll be a ripper!

(But what about those in Tuggeranong, Belconnnen, Queanbeyan, etc.?)

Don’t underestimate the ability of well paid professionals to pay. I know guys who live in Sydney but work in Canberra at $150-200 an hour. If they could travel home each night rather than pay for a hotel (and work on the train each way), it becomes extremely viable.

Rail for freight is mostly dead in this country. Truck rules supreme.

Having a rail link coming into Canberra to move the goods from port or interstate, as per your last sentence is what it is all about I reckon.

Exposing the ACT production folk to cheaper, easier movement of goods to port for export.
Meeting all the ACT Govt’s clap trap about clean, environemntly friendly industry practices (transport of goods to market is seen as a major environmental cost).

The point about double handling is bang on, but I am thinking Stanhope is after this as it opens up ACT industry to easier exporting/receiving of goods, which shouldn’t be dismissed.

S4anta said :

I think you might find that the rationale for this is not for passenger transport.

There is quite sound reasoning for rail infratsructure to be used for the transport of goods, rather than road/air based freight. If the system is good enough it will eventually lead to lower costs to market which means lower price at point of sale.

Think greenhouse & carbon footprint costs, resealing of roads, bleh, bleh bleh.

Having a terminal point at the airport ties in with the whole frieght hub idea for Canberra airport for int’l goods coming into the Sydney market.

Going off on tangents about people moving is a too smaller scope on this one methinks. Rail infrastructure is a hell lot more than just passengers and train nerds looking at puffing billy.

VFT technologies are rarely compatible with freight. Now if we’re talking about standard electrified dual track between all major cities that would be very useful and great for freight.

But rail v. truck suffers greatly with double handling. Why load a container onto a truck, drive it to the rail-yard, load it on a train, wait for the train to arrive at the other end, load it back onto a truck and drive it to where it’s needed when you can just drive the first truck to the destination?

Goods produced adjacent to railway lines, or arriving on ships, going to other destinations also on railway lines, however, are a different story.

Peewee Slasher said :

I look forward to the VFT (Very Fast Train). If we’re going to consider this technological leap forwards, we should also investigate the BFT (Bloody Fast Train).

The BFT is the VFT with bells on. It should reduce commuting time between Canberra and Sydney to 1/2 hour.

Now, as for the FFT…

um, fairly fast train?

or will that be the ‘frequently failing train’?

I think you might find that the rationale for this is not for passenger transport.

There is quite sound reasoning for rail infratsructure to be used for the transport of goods, rather than road/air based freight. If the system is good enough it will eventually lead to lower costs to market which means lower price at point of sale.

Think greenhouse & carbon footprint costs, resealing of roads, bleh, bleh bleh.

Having a terminal point at the airport ties in with the whole frieght hub idea for Canberra airport for int’l goods coming into the Sydney market.

Going off on tangents about people moving is a too smaller scope on this one methinks. Rail infrastructure is a hell lot more than just passengers and train nerds looking at puffing billy.

Where are the greenies on this? What is the embodied energy/carbon impact to manufacture, build, operate this vs. air travel/cars for the next 20 years? How can they guarantee usage at a level/adoption rate that would offset the huge impact in constructing it in the first instance? Would your “green appeal” entice you to buy a comparatively expensive ticket vs. jumping on one of Qantas’/Vrigin’s $69 one-way fares? To Sydney and back for under $150 if you pick the right flights? Money vs. a better world. Hmm.

Too much money, too little benefit.

unless the Federales pay for all of it of course, then it would be a great idea.

Underground, in a brave new world, with just a handful of men, they can start all over again.

It’ll probably never happen (and certainly not in the foreseeable future). Look at the fuss that was put up for a few KM’s worth of road with the GDE. Your talking about building a rail system which is approx 30 times the length, going across state lines, and through various councils which may or may not get benefit from it (lets face it, it’s not going to do the run from CBR – SYD in 2 hours if it has to stop every couple of minutes), not to mention the expense of such a project, and if it’s not an improvement on current airline options (in price, speed city center to city center and capacity) it’ll be looked upon as a giant waste of money.

Actually in China the outraged locals are pretty good at rising up with stout sticks and beating the crap out of the bulldozer drivers.

The extension of the Shanghai maglev in fact is currently held up due to residents along the route taking resolute and direct action against it.

You’d be OK with a fast train going through your backyard then, punkarella?

This will not happen in my lifetime. Too much interstate red tape, and no doubt protesters worried about the train going thru there back yard, noise complaints etc.. the list of possible problems is endless. Now in a China they wouldn’t have even consulted the people, they would have just rocked up with bulldosers and given you 2 mins to get your stuff. I have to say, that’s how you do it!

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Although at an hour, it would be viable to live in Canberra and commute to Sydney for work.

Uh yeah – at $100 a seat?

Coulda sworn I read a whole lot of whinging and whining around here about the price of an adult bus ticket going up 80c to $3.80…so as long as the VFT, BFT or Cbr-Syd monorail can get you from city (centre) to city (centre) in under an hour and for less than $3.80, it’ll be a ripper!

(But what about those in Tuggeranong, Belconnnen, Queanbeyan, etc.?)

Looks like what they are really asking for is a reasonable commute service for pubes who want to live in Sydney. That whole ‘Canberra is just an office’ thing has really stuck.

I still think there’s an issue of cost versus time. If it costs twice as much to take an hour as opposed to two hours, would you really bother? Although at an hour, it would be viable to live in Canberra and commute to Sydney for work.

(Hmmm, wonder what that will do to property values…?)

Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What’d I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
Patty+Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That’s right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail’ softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud…
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You’ll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I’m on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it’s Springfield’s only choice…
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again…
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street’s still all cracked and broken…
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono… D’oh!

I am certain that one of the less public business interests prodding this along is Canberra Airport. A VFT of some sort has been part of their plan from the start, it’s vital to a lot of what they want to do with the airport (the flying bit of the airport, that is).

There’s also some quite detailed plans floating around the bit of the gov’t to do with ACT affairs, with the route already drawn in (and several options), and it comes down Majura Valley, next to the airport and has at least one terminal there.

Generally the trains enclose the track, there’s no daylight.

Have a look at the photos on the wiki page.

I look forward to the VFT (Very Fast Train). If we’re going to consider this technological leap forwards, we should also investigate the BFT (Bloody Fast Train).

The BFT is the VFT with bells on. It should reduce commuting time between Canberra and Sydney to 1/2 hour.

Now, as for the FFT…

johnboy said :

deye said :

Use a maglev and elevate it, that way you don’t have to worry about cows, kangaroos, wombats, pedestrians or crossings 😉

That 1 centimetre clearance will be much appreciated by ants.

It’s a maglev in the picture.

At a station. It can be whatever height above the ground you want. You wouldn’t want it too high though.

I hope it arrives at a place a little more central than canberra train station. $15 greyhound from jollimont is pretty hard to beat tbh.

The whole point is that it doesn’t have to be as fast as flying (airport to airport), it just just has to be as fast as city centre to city centre. Once you take taxis each way and faffing around at the airport out of the equation, I reckon getting central Canberra to central Sydney in 2 hours would be fine. Canberra to Sydney is what – 250kms? Even with a couple a quick stops a train that could reliably average 160km/h would probably be fast enough.

And if it could be done for reasonable prices (ie less than $100 a seat), it would get a pretty good following. I’d use it over flying any day.

deye said :

Use a maglev and elevate it, that way you don’t have to worry about cows, kangaroos, wombats, pedestrians or crossings 😉

That 1 centimetre clearance will be much appreciated by ants.

It’s a maglev in the picture.

Use a maglev and elevate it, that way you don’t have to worry about cows, kangaroos, wombats, pedestrians or crossings 😉