Unwarranted speeding fines at Northbourne/London Circuit?

Bah, didn’t even try to hit ‘Post’ that time.

0.1*100+4
^^^ the 10% part.

OK, so say the actual speed is 100, while the speedo is displaying 110.

(110-100) = 10, which is smaller than or equal to (0.1*100+4) = 14
^^^ this would be the 10%
part.

From the ADRs:

5.3. The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. At the
test speeds specified in paragraph 5.2.5. above, there shall be the following
relationship between the speed displayed (V1 ) and the true speed (V2): 0 ? (V1 – V2) ? 0.1 V2 + 4 km/h

Whick pretty much settles it.

Go and get your speedo checked then you could produce the accuracy certificate in defence. Although then they could produce the photo.

“I did read somewhere where someone took their fine to court & was let off because there weren’t any warning signs.”

No obligation to post signs. You don’t see Police advising people where they set laser up or indeed warn people that they will be pulled over if they speed. No prior notification of RBT sites.

Maybe no speed limit signs, you are thinking, as there is no obligation to post warning signs, they are just a courtesy. The obligation is on you, as the driver, to know the limit. If you don’t then default to 60 or 50 in built up areas. Its not rocket surgery. Not every single driver in the ACT gets fined every year. In fact some drivers go through their entire lives without being booked. There is a lesson there for people who whinge about being booked. For most people if you keep you head out of your ass when driving you will avoid any problems

mooo_cow said :

I am sure that the government has to put those big huge sings up for a reason if they didn’t they wouldn’t, why would they, they would make more revenue, which is not suppose to be part of why you have speed cameras in the first place.

I did read somewhere where someone took their fine to court & was let off because there weren’t any warning signs.

But one funny thing is that the signs warning you about speed cameras are never hit by cars, the sign next to it may be, but never the speed camera sign

I’m curious why the OP stated the fines were unwarranted.

I mean you sped, therefore they ARE warranted

I would be serously surprised to fing that any late model car’s spedo was out by more than 3 or 4km/h at 100km/h. claiming 10% error or wosre is crazy talk.

Well, as much as you’d be ‘serously surprised to fing’ something like that, it’s documented in the ADRs. Hell, even tyre wear will affect a speedos accuracy.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

Put up or shut up. Name one fixed speed camera in the ACT that isn’t marked with at least one enormous ‘SPEED CAMERA AHEAD’ sign.

I know you and I don’t agree on the speed camera issue, but to be fair, speed cameras in ACT are VERY well sign posted, with plenty of warning.

I have never been caught by a fixed speed camera but I have had a few scares. I still believe the speed/redlight camera just past the junction of Hindmarsh Dr and Melrose Dr (at Bell St?) is not well marked because the left sign that drops the limit from 80 to 60 sits above a large direction sign and drivers are concentrating on the traffic light ahead but this was disputed in a previous post.

Put up or shut up. Name one fixed speed camera in the ACT that isn’t marked with at least one enormous ‘SPEED CAMERA AHEAD’ sign.

I know you and I don’t agree on the speed camera issue, but to be fair, speed cameras in ACT are VERY well sign posted, with plenty of warning.

I am sure that the government has to put those big huge sings up for a reason if they didn’t they wouldn’t, why would they, they would make more revenue, which is not suppose to be part of why you have speed cameras in the first place.

?!

Needs more reptoids.

Clown Killer said :

MY GPS reads much lower than my speedo, which do I trust?

Your GPS, it’s more accurate …

In your dreams. As someone who works with GPS and DGPS on a daily basis I’m always plesantly surprised to when the technology puts us in the ballpark. Sometimes it’s working, a lot of the time its just coping.

I would be serously surprised to fing that any late model car’s spedo was out by more than 3 or 4km/h at 100km/h. claiming 10% error or wosre is crazy talk.

When my speedo says 80 the GPS is around 75, even at a constant speed it doesn’t catch up.

I feel the only way out you might have, would be in a court against the signage that may not be inline with the Australian Standard.

A fix speed camera in Canberra is clearly signed as the same in NSW with 3 big blue warnings, thou there might not be anything within the Australian Standard for fix speed and red light but you could amount fight in court to say the little black and white sign before is nothing even close. To that of the standard for just a fix speed camera. I am sure that the government has to put those big huge sings up for a reason if they didn’t they wouldn’t, why would they, they would make more revenue, which is not suppose to be part of why you have speed cameras in the first place.

And the sign before that. And the sign before that sign. And the sign before the other four signs telling you there’s a speed camera coming and the speed limit.

“They only warned me five times! REVENUE RAISING!”

If you mean this camera (wait for it to load), then you’d have to be blind not to see these two signs as you approached from the city.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

many of these fixed speed cameras and the required speed are not clearly identified.

Put up or shut up. Name one fixed speed camera in the ACT that isn’t marked with at least one enormous ‘SPEED CAMERA AHEAD’ sign.

Well the speed camera on Barton Highway near Gungahlin Drive is designed to get cars coming to it from the City. I say this as the sensors are before the normal camera.

MY GPS reads much lower than my speedo, which do I trust?

Your GPS, it’s more accurate …

In your dreams. As someone who works with GPS and DGPS on a daily basis I’m always plesantly surprised to when the technology puts us in the ballpark. Sometimes it’s working, a lot of the time its just coping.

I would be serously surprised to fing that any late model car’s spedo was out by more than 3 or 4km/h at 100km/h. claiming 10% error or wosre is crazy talk.

Can I please, PLEASE have the source code 😉

…and then buy these custom numberplates:

CAF’;DROP TABLE OFFENDERS;

many of these fixed speed cameras and the required speed are not clearly identified.

Put up or shut up. Name one fixed speed camera in the ACT that isn’t marked with at least one enormous ‘SPEED CAMERA AHEAD’ sign.

Pesty said :

MY GPS reads much lower than my speedo, which do I trust?

Your GPS, it’s more accurate. Car speedos (factory set) are generally set so they show a speed faster than your actual speed, it will depend on your car though. My car shows about 5kph faster than its actual speed.

Having said that, 4 speeding fines would be pretty difficult to get out of. I’d think it’s more likely to be your car, or the driver’s foot than the camera.

My friend wrote to the RTA a week after the incident (10ks over) and they wrote back within 30 mins to say the fine was cancelled. Just need some poetic license. This was done via the email system on the back of the ticket. I guess the trick to cancelling fines is to do it before the fine expires, after that it’s just bad luck.

MY GPS reads much lower than my speedo, which do I trust?

motleychick said :

the one I heard was that they snuck up on the road-side speed camera van, stole it’s plates and then proceeded to speed repeatedly past the same van.

This is true. And also hilarious.

Actually its not true

I would have thought that the aim of fixed speed cameras was to keep speeds down at the place where the speed camera was placed. It should be so obvious to everybody that the camera is there and what the regulated speed was. Only the complete brain dead should be caught;.
No. In the interest of saving or making money rather than ensuring road safety, many of these fixed speed cameras and the required speed are not clearly identified. Consequently drivers who are not brain dead are caught, and disillusioned about the fairness of the society they live in.
Traffic fines should be set at a percentage of a persons salary or gross worth. The more financially endowed can treat our society with contempt because a traffic fine is no more than what they might tip at a restaurant that warranted they patronage and for another might be three months of disposable income.

This is ridiculous. In Canberra it’s barely possible to go through a $peed camera 10km/h under the limit, never mind at or over it due to people panic braking 50m ahead of it.

I would definitely be questioning this, esp if you were in a stream of traffic at the time.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Yes you do. Would you like some evidence?

lolz.

Seriously, though – I’m a staunch advocate for speed cameras, because they’re cheap and effective. However, there needs to be a quick and simple way to verify a result, and the source code of any software should be open for all to see. Ditto for breathalysers.

Can I please, PLEASE have the source code 😉

bugmenot said :

Actually, do you know the speed limit through that intersection?

Long, long ago, it was 70km/h. Which would seem to be the speed you are travelling at.

Along Northbourne it’s now 60kph.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

I’m a staunch advocate for speed cameras, because they’re cheap and effective. However, there needs to be a quick and simple way to verify a result, and the source code of any software should be open for all to see. Ditto for breathalysers.

Yeah, because if there is one thing the average person finds simple and quick to do, it is decode and then understand the source code on a Dräger breath analysis instrument….*rolls eyes*

Yes you do. Would you like some evidence?

lolz.

Seriously, though – I’m a staunch advocate for speed cameras, because they’re cheap and effective. However, there needs to be a quick and simple way to verify a result, and the source code of any software should be open for all to see. Ditto for breathalysers.

A few years ago in Melbourne

Unreliable speed cameras were secretly disconnected

because police didn’t want a repeat of a situation where $26 million needed to be repaid.

In Sydney a higher court made sure that wouldn’t happen there.

Drivers-lose-speed-camera-test-case

Actually, do you know the speed limit through that intersection?

Long, long ago, it was 70km/h. Which would seem to be the speed you are travelling at.

Disposable said :

I thought it was $50 to get the photo in the A.C.T? Or have they changed that?

It used to $10 some years ago now if you wanted a copy of it. You could go into the office and view it for free though…

Haven’t had a problem going through this intersection. So I reckon there’s a good chance your speedo is out – so it’ll still be your fault. That said, with a nicely written letter you can probably weasel your way to at least a single speeding ticket.

“I do not speed. I have had my driver’s licence for 8 years and in that time I have never received a speeding fine, because I do not speed.”

Yes you do. Would you like some evidence?

“On May 14, 15, 19 and 24 I allegedly passed through the Northbourne Ave/London Circuit intersection at 69, 71, 70 and 69 km/h respectively.”

bren said :

Request the photos… its free in the ACT and when I asked for my photo – they withdrew the fine. It wasn’t my car.

I thought it was $50 to get the photo in the A.C.T? Or have they changed that?

I got a speeding fine at this very intersection a couple of years ago – I too don’t think I was actually speeding, as there were roadworks going on at the time. I would not be surprised if there is the odd problem with them, after all, they are technology (which can never be 100 per cent accurate 100 per cent of the time).

the one I heard was that they snuck up on the road-side speed camera van, stole it’s plates and then proceeded to speed repeatedly past the same van.

This is true. And also hilarious.

Sympathy for your strange situation — was it always you driving the car?

dvaey said :

Speed Cameras and DUI’s are the two offences in the ACT where the standard ‘Innocent until proven guilty’ line doesnt apply. “

I think its more the case that the evidence provided by the cameras has a lot of weight.

You are still innocent unless found guilty. You can plead not guilty. You can present evidence to plead your case.

The ‘honest mistake’ defence (eg wrong sized wheels/tires, incorrect speedo) doesn’t carry much weight in the finding of guilty/not guilty – it is your responsibility to know how fast you are going. However, it can effect the penalty.

If you think it might not be you, get the photos.

Didn’t some students on a Uni prank nick a police cars plate and then use it to run up a whole lot of speeding fines ?

Something like that, urban myth no doubt.

the one I heard was that they snuck up on the road-side speed camera van, stole it’s plates and then proceeded to speed repeatedly past the same van.

AG Canberra said :

In the end it was cheaper to just pay the fine – which makes the whole process completely ar$e about if you ask me…..

the cynic in me says this is the way the system has been designed.

It does not do much to build up anyone’s confidence in the fairness of the judicial system as a whole.

phototext said :

Didn’t some students on a Uni prank nick a police cars plate and then use it to run up a whole lot of speeding fines ?

Something like that, urban myth no doubt.

Nah it was a speed camera van’s plate.

It definitely happened.

My brother’s friend’s uncle’s housemate was there. Honest.

Didn’t some students on a Uni prank nick a police cars plate and then use it to run up a whole lot of speeding fines ?

Something like that, urban myth no doubt.

I too asked about the calibration certificate of a camera that caught the Wife doing 101 in an 80 zone. It didn’t sound right – she just doesn’t drive that fast.

The unhelpful officer told me that we’d have to front up to court – and even then it would be up to the magistrate to decide if it was appropriate that that information be provided.

In the end it was cheaper to just pay the fine – which makes the whole process completely ar$e about if you ask me…..

The dodgy camera’s in Syd were on the Spit Road and recorded articulated buses going up the hill at speeds of greater than 70k’s! But it wasn’t until then that the RTA finally accepted that there ‘might’ be something wrong with their ‘infallible’ camera system .

Albigeois said :

caf said :

Have you checked that your numberplates haven’t been stolen?

That had occurred to me.

But my numberplates are still on my car, and I have determined that I would have been going through the interseciton roughly at the times of the tickets… so I’m guessing not (unfortunately!)

It’s not uncommon for thieves to clone number plates and use them on similar looking cars. I reckon get your hands on the photos and see if it’s really your car.

10% out seems too much for a “yeah they’re all like that” response. There are actually legal requirements placed on car makers/importers to meet accuracy standards – from memory it’s +/- 3km/h at 100km/h.

Indeed there are regulations. But no – That’s the accuracy of the speed cameras in Victora – 3km/h, regardless of the speed zone.

ADRs say to within 10% +4Km/h, noting that speedos in cars sold after 2006 aren’t allowed to ‘under-read’. Yes, this means your speedo could read as 114km/h when you’re only doing 100.

http://www.trafficlaw.com.au/speedos.html

caf said :

Have you checked that your numberplates haven’t been stolen?

That had occurred to me.

But my numberplates are still on my car, and I have determined that I would have been going through the interseciton roughly at the times of the tickets… so I’m guessing not (unfortunately!)

As others have pointed out, even if you have those things, the governments ‘evidence’ will always be given more weight than anything you can present

I believe that it’s to do with the fact that the speed camera’s are approved speed measurement devices under whatever legislation is relevant. Having GPS or other data recorders in support of your defence dosn’t wash because they’re not approved speed measurement devices.

Have you checked that your numberplates haven’t been stolen?

Speed Cameras and DUI’s are the two offences in the ACT where the standard ‘Innocent until proven guilty’ line doesnt apply. When a machine decides you’re guilty, its up to you to prove your innocence beyond the doubt of the machine.

Short of having a camera constantly recording from front of your vehicle, and a blackbox data recorder, youre pretty much out of luck. As others have pointed out, even if you have those things, the governments ‘evidence’ will always be given more weight than anything you can present. (not to mention you’d probably have legal issues if you tried to photograph a government camera that tried to photograph you). Welcome to new china.

Thanks to all for comments and suggestions.

I intend write a letter and also go to view the photos (which you can do free of charge at Dickson). I am also definitely going to get my speedo checked to be sure.

My partner was driving the car on two of the occasions (I was out of town) so at least I am personnally not up for all four (and yes, we’re doing the stat dec stuff for those two, just to confuse the issue!)

I am realistic that in the end the fines will proobably have to be paid, but will report back if anything out of the ordinary ensues!!

10% out seems too much for a “yeah they’re all like that” response. There are actually legal requirements placed on car makers/importers to meet accuracy standards – from memory it’s +/- 3km/h at 100km/h.

My car is spot on as far as I have been able to test but the variations in accuracy might explain why I can tootle along the Hume highway with the cruise set on 110 and still pass about 80% of the traffic.

Yeah, it’ll usually read 10% fast. Can you imagine if a manufacturer released a car where it was out in the other direction though? Lawsuits galore. I was shocked to find the speedo on the old (87) Ovlov was accurate to 1km/h, even at 110.

Most speedos seem to go under. A friend with a new Subaru went back for her 10,000km service and mentioned that the speedo needed a looking at because it was a good 10km/h out at 100 when tested with the GPS. The service agent stopped her and said it was how they all are.

Sucks if your speedo is out on the other end. Sucks that speedos are designed to be out too. I have instruments to tell me what I’m doing so I can make decisions as I wish to, not give me wrong information.

Best check yr speedo calibration. Very easy to do with a GPS.

Reply

Do you have a GPS in your car? You could use the data from that to refute the speeding allegation.

I believe that the courts have rejected this avenue of defence in the past.

Do you have a GPS in your car? You could use the data from that to refute the speeding allegation.

Rawhide Kid No 2 said :

Are your wheels or tyres over size? If they are it will put your real speed above what your speedo is showing.

Oops ..a bit slow today

Are your wheels or tyres over size? If they are it will put your real speed above what your speedo is showing.

As others have suggested, check your speedo. You can do this for free; there are several points on highways in Canberra where you can do this. I think there is one on the Monaro Hwy near Hume, and one on the Barton Hwy.

To check your calibration, you will need to be able to drive between the measured markers at a constant speed. Using the cruise control, if your vehicle is so equipped, is the best way to maintain a constant speed. You will also need to time, as accurately as possible, how long it takes to travel the measured distance. Then do the math.

If you drive a 4wd and you’ve switched to larger tires, you may need to recalibrate your speedo.

Request the photos… its free in the ACT and when I asked for my photo – they withdrew the fine. It wasn’t my car.

Are you the only person who drives your car?

barking toad said :

No.

+1

The speed camera’s tend be fairly accurate.

I suppose that you could ask to have the device checked, but I suspect that the Treasury officials in the ACT government would keep those devices pretty finely tuned as they’d be wanting fairly accurate estimates of the revenue that they’re raising.

I don’t hold much hope for wriggling out of this though – better start saving four fines is going to hurt – and maybe leave the car at home this weekend – if you get another one you’ll probably run out of demerit points!

astrojax said :

I cannot believe that I knowingly sped through this intersection on these occasions

a tautology in the circumstances… but if you have a solicitor you could see them and see what recourse you have – these things are machines and are fallible. certainly write letters, as cleverclogs cleverly suggests – writing leaves an easier trail than a phone call.

good luck – report back!

Further to Astro’s suggestion to write letters, in my experience you write an email and they will call you back with a response. If this happens, best to ask them to put something in writing for you – I’m pretty sure they’ll oblige.

FWIW, I found the Traffic Camera Office quite easy to deal with. They were a useful resource when it came to working out what action I could take.

Probably is worth checking your speedo out too, although generally if a speedo is inaccurate it will read a higher speed than what you’re actually going.

I cannot believe that I knowingly sped through this intersection on these occasions

a tautology in the circumstances… but if you have a solicitor you could see them and see what recourse you have – these things are machines and are fallible. certainly write letters, as cleverclogs cleverly suggests – writing leaves an easier trail than a phone call.

good luck – report back!

Wow! That’s a lotta tickets….

I got a ticket at the same intersection in November last year, which I am a little dubious about (long story, but I got an extension and haven’t paid it yet). It claimed I was going 17km over the limit which is pretty excessive, especially for me on city streets (clean licence, no previous tickets).

I think the best thing to do is to ask for the most recent calibration records for the camera. Other option is to see if you can get it calibrated yourself (although this is pretty pricey). Other than that, I really have no idea what recourse you have.

I will admit that I would desperately love to hear of any of those infernal contraptions malfunctioning – so much so that they are all removed. However, all desires aside, it does seem that four speeding fines in a month would indicate there something here is amiss – either with your speedometer or the camera. I’d get on the phone/write and find out what the hell is going on asap.

No.