Waiting, waiting, waiting... [School closures finalised]

Nyssa, Griffith Library sold? If so, then that is a disgusting act of treachery to the electorate. The local ALP have totally sold out to the highest bidder. I’m so appalled at what’s happening here in this town words cannot express.

Principals and staff will be available on these days to welcome families to their school, provide information about their school, and to assist students and their families to consider their options.

I took this from the Towards 2020 Website.

Basically from tomorrow until Tuesday staff at non-closing schools will be “available”. However, it also states Feb 2.

Now, I don’t mind being there for parents and students, however Feb 2 is a PD day and a requirement of every EBA we’ve ever had – mandated by ACTDET.

So do we get credited for being there or do the PD instead?

I can’t find the thread for this but it is a little relevant to said school closures.

Today I found out that the land that Griffith Library is on was sold before the announcement to close it was released!

So given that piece of underhandedness, perhaps the schools that did close were more “valuable” in a re-sale capacity and that’s why they got the chop.

I understand that changes are needed.

But I do not understand why they’ve made these final choices. There are no explanations why – just a list of who’s closing and when.

This whole education thing has been poorly planned, and the community has been inadequately consulted.

Oh, and has anyone else noticed that Pearce pre-school was never even considered for closure (next door to a private school). But Chifley is losing its public primary school and will now have a pre-school that feeds into… wait a minute, it’s also within walking distance of the Pearce private school! They obviously don’t really want us to publicly educate our kids, when they’re so busy feeding our pre-schoolers into the private system.

in my day.. those clowns with school pride would have been ridiculed seriously. Pride is a dangerous mentality which should be stomped out.

Weepy kambah girls having a tanty? Now this i’ve got to see!!

oh. i just read it, and that chick is like one of the only students that does care about the school closures. so to that, i say pfft.
(actulary, i do know her too well…yep, thats her in a nutshell!)

And according to one of my friends, apparently one person from kambah sounded like they were crying when they were on abc radio last night.

Did anyone else see the Hall parent speaking on the ABC news last night. The one who said something like:

How DARE they close our school!

She was just scary. Anyone would think Barr had come out and personally taken a dump on her pillow.

Having said that, the Liberals are a pathetic excuse for an opposition, so I can see the Labor party returned at the next election. I wouldn’t be too disappointed if that happened.

The government is there to administer what we want them to do?

Sure, and at the next election the people will have their say. Voting patterns are typically dictated by what has been done in the past, rather than what is promised in the future.

Is it just me (obviously not you Areaman – welcome back btw), or is this just a simple failing of one simple fact:

The government is there to administer what we want them to do?.

Fundamentally, the more I look, the less I seem to see about what I want as a taxpayer, and the more I seem to be being fed as a simoleon.

This ‘we’re doing what’s good for you‘ mentality has seriously got to stop.

Unfortunately, major policy changes without flagging them at an election has been standard operating procedures for both sides of government for some time now.

And Nyssa’s being a bit hopeful about a change of government in 2008 – yep, I get the feeling Barr’s going to have a bit of a challenge (he’s never actually been elected to the Assembley, merely appointed as a replacement for another member of his party who dropped off), but the local liberals aren’t exactly making a credible alternative, now, are they?

On the plus side, if we have any luck at all, the days of majority government should be dead by then.

–>Nysssa: ASAP is a great piece of management speak. It sounds urgent but it means “when i get my lazy arse around to it”.

–>Pots: You make a compelling argument.

The problem is all the things the Government spends money on that no-one cares about (impotent human rights commissions, a third arboretum) while a lot of people do want expensive and small community based primary schools.

Also there’s the minor matter than one would normally expect that a major policy change in a key responsibility of a Government might be flagged at an election rather than dumped on us as a fait a compli.

*secondary teachers won’t find out placements til mid-January because of the arguments over their pay. This seems a touch late to me given school goes back end of Jan/start of Feb.

Kerces I was told yesterday that it would be ASAP but I have always suspected January. However, I think the arbitration between ACTDET and the AEU will be finalised mid-January and that’s the rationale behind it.

Which is all well and good, if you know where you are going next year and what you are teaching.

The whole thing is a farce. I’ll be speaking to staffing again on Thursday 21st – when the round “should” have been out.

I don’t think Barr and Chief Numpty will be in Govt beyond 2008.

So hopefully there won’t be any more “super (crap) schools”.

Hello Riotactors, this is my first post, so howdydoody to youse all. I’m Pots. I would have been Potsy but I registered that username, lost the password and then changed email address. So now I can’t be me because I’m already me and the system won’t let me be me twice. It’s late and all, so this post comes after all is already said, but somebody has to be last.

Try this: the Govt said it’s going to save about $14mil every year through the closures (see http://www.decs.act.gov.au/2020/faq.htm#o11 ) – can you think of 14 mil worth of stuff you would take the cash from to give back to schools?

I couldn’t help myself and had a quick scroll through the budget papers to see where the money goes ( http://www.treasury.act.gov.au/budget/index.shtml ). Paper 3, the overview lists expenditure in chapter 5.2. There’s a stack of small things. How about $31,000 to put more CCTV around the place (page 84)? Or $200,000 to do just the initial planning of the Centenary of Canberra (p92)(let alone doing the Centenary itself). What about $1million for “supporting economic and financial policy advice” (p95). What the freak is that? Sounds to me like a million bucks worth of conferences and junkets for treasury. Are there $14 million worth of small things we don’t need every year?

Chapter 6, however, has a few big things. $30 million extra this year alone in budget overruns for Gungahlin drive (p120). $19.4 million to upgrade the Convention Centre (p123). $4.3 million for a new glassworks (p124). Near $8 million just to evaluate whether we can build a dragway (p124), let alone the cost of doing it. Are these more important than schools?

Of course I’m not so selfish as to expect everyone else to do the work – I’ve come up with a SOLUTION. Page 95 of chapter 5.2 has $616,000 for new speed cameras. At first I thought that was a bit unnecessary until I saw the returns – $3.1 mil in the first year! All we have to do is multiply the expenditure on speed cameras by 4.5 and the school funding shortfall is FIXED. Aren’t numbers useful?
Good night,
Pots

I’m still waiting to see this government make something new and good.

So I’m not convinced that these new schools will be “all that”.

Gold Creek is not going well by all accounts.

Well from 2008 there aren’t going to be any Kindy to whatever schools, they’ll all be Preschool to whatever. Assuming, of course, all current primary schools have a preschool nearby that will be attached.

OK, so not everybodies happy. But look in the end the whole idea of the plan was to make the education system alot more cost effective. Take Kambah High, The building is old and the cost to run it are shockingly high. By building new schools that are more efficient in all ways it will make life alot easier for the tax payer as we wont be have to pay for schools that only a small number of students can enjoy. And when you think about some massive schools that have 400 + students are left to burn in summer while a school of 200- are given the luxury of air con. Now how is that fair? If you ask me all that $750 out of pocket thing is way to good! i mean for all those people that spend there time bitching about how shit our government is and then go off and enjoy the money that they fork out to you I say get a fucking life!, if you took a little more time out to actually read a proposal like toward 2020 you might see the benifits of it! So come on Canberra, we elected the Stanhope Government and there for we have to live with the fact that they make the decisions and if we dont like it then its our own fault for giving them our votes. So give Jonny S and Andy B a break after all we dont have to vote for them in 2008!

pfft, poor behavior and bullying can happen at big or small schools, no matter what… (i went to a big school, then moved to a small school…i’ve experienced both, and they’re pretty much the same..)

and $750 for each affected child? ha! like that’d happen, arent the goverment trying to save money by closing schools?

Areaman, ” ‘Superschools are expected to be filled with poor behaviour and bullying as this is the experience of large schools overseas.’ Rubbish, prove it.” OK . . Two words. Gold Creek.

“Massive confusion of choice (What the F&^K is a P-2)!”

It goes so well with a K-10!

Apparently “choice” is defined by age ranges (of which you only get one go with your child), rather than teaching methods, school sizes, or curricula.

If I have to pay taxes, you can all go to private schools and frack yourselves.

P-2 is Preschool to Year 2, ie the Infants bit of Primary School, with Pre-School randomly added *just for the hell of it*

More money!

Less service!

Massive confusion of choice (What the F&^K is a P-2)!

Thanks for the summary, Kerces. I couldn’t cope with reading all the other 52 comments at this time of night, and was looking for some sort of distillation of the day’s events…

Can’t afford schools or a bus ‘service’, but *what do you know*, there’s suddenly a slush fund for hush money for the displaced children. (Is it just me, or does anyone else find this deeply disturbing?)

The key points as I see them from all this (and sorry for repetition):
* just over half the number of schools closing than were proposed.
* 11 preschools, 11 primaries and Kambah High gone
* $750 one-off payment for kids at the closing schools, but only if they move to other government schools. The Opposition, Save Our Schools and the big ACT P&C variously think this is a bad idea or not enough.
* teachers at primary schools should find out their placements for next year by the end of December.
*secondary teachers won’t find out placements til mid-January because of the arguments over their pay. This seems a touch late to me given school goes back end of Jan/start of Feb.
* Andrew Barr “won’t be seen dead” in Hall tonight.
* four primary schools, three of which were never proposed to be closed, are going to have four grades cut out of them in 2009. Can’t see them being very happy about that.
* all preschools to be amalgamated with associated primaries in 2008.
* the twin-campus Melba Copland Secondary school is going to be a trial for a few years, after which it may be turned into a single campus 7-12 school.
* I have seen the word school so many times today I know longer know if it’s spelt correctly.

Areaman, my mum went to a one room primary school at Yanco. When they moved to Syd, she got into a Selective school (Nth Sydney Girls).

Sad about Tharwa and Hall. And I think Isabella is going to be turned into a P-2.

OK, so Gilmore is not closing. Never should have been on the list. They have put this school and preschool community through the wringer.

I am relieved, but now there’s this massive survivor guilt. And they are still obsessed with these super-schools, and some random early childhood model?

I just want NORMAL schools, ie Preschool, K-6, 7-12. (I suppose they are stuck with the college model, it being an alleged ‘flagship’ and all, but I personally hated the transition to college).
I

Don’t worry Swaggie, I’m sure they’ll be thinking of the school closures as they have a massive Xmas Lunch next week (not to mention their own “departments” Xmas lunches.

A farcical flawed shambles of a process which oddly enough Barr comes out of quite well apart from showing a spineless streak but only because he’s so obviously just the Ventriloquist’s dummy. The department are shown to be an inept bunch of the worst kind of timeserving public servants incapable of organising a piss up in a brewery – even the Zierholz brewery. 😉 Pathetic.

The 21 bus route doesn’t actually go into Chifley at all. It goes from Pearce, down Melrose drive (which borders one side of Chifley) and then to Lyons.

P-2 schools separate and are basically creating a bastardised version of a middle school for 3-6.

It’s not well thought out – 6 months is not enough time to undertake such a major change to educational policy.

Al, firstly most of the people attending Tharwa are from tuggers, hence urban and the reason I stated state schools is because just bause it’s possible to have private micro schools it might not be economical nor equitable to try and run them within the public system.

nyssa76 I noticed some pretty major changes from consultation, not just the smaller list of closures. P-2 rather than P-3 (which matches DETs definition of early childhood), those schools would have priniciapls and be more spread out across the region. Keeping specialist programs out at Stirling College and of course the two new schools to be built. In fact there was a general increase in support for the college system, which I’m greatful for.

Areaman: I believe we were talking about Tharwa – not exactly urban…
Having clarified that, the side point I was making was that there are some very highly regarded urban schools with only a few teachers that use similar models to the country village schools.
Our own children whould have been in such a school here if there had been places available…

“sausage factory” (oops)

Look there is research to suggest that the “sausage family” known as the Super school will be good and it will be bad – depends on who you read.

The same can be said for smaller schools.

I’ve worked in a school with 1000 students. It was hell to do duty. So many kids, so many chances of “visitors” turning up as most students don’t wear school uniform.

I did notice that less bullying was detected in larger schools but only because of the number of students. You can “catch” it more easily in smaller schools.

As for the $750 per student for families, well that’s a joke. Over $1 million dollars folks.

What a way to “save” money.

The consultation period was a farce and the whole thing was poorly organised from the start.

Now I await the final “death knell” for the transfer round.

The $750 one off bribe, sorry payment should take the wind out of the Save Our Schools sails. (I’m not saying that it is necessarily just and equitable just an observation on human nature)

if you ever venture out into the country you will find plenty of tiny one teacher schools that do a superb job

That’s because they don’t have a choice, I can’t think of any examples of one teacher state schools in urban areas that provide as good outcomes as full k-6 schools do.

Areaman: if you ever venture out into the country you will find plenty of tiny one teacher schools that do a superb job. Mixing of different age groups allows the older students to gain very real experience in learning through teaching the younger ones, great responsibility and inclusiveness is fostered. Many of the “alternative” schools such as Blue Gums in Hackett are based on similar philosopies.
Having given serious consideration to Tharwa before moving to Canberra, I can say that if I had been running a net-based business from home, having to truck the kids into Tuggers every day would have been a real drag.
And the question has to be asked – what is being saved by doing this (some aspects anyway – I’m sure there are some schools that were running on empty among the list)? They will have to subsidise school buses a lot more, and there will be a lot of other costs associated with the changes. I would have thought it would be more efficient to have multiple schools under the one management/headmaster, and save real money on the wages side…

This might be useful to people looking for some more info:
http://www.det.act.gov.au/2020/outcomes.htm

Chifley has no bus – would you let your 6 year old cross hindmarsh drive to Woden Interchange adn hang around there.

What like the 21 that goes from Chifley to Lyons Primary?

And Weston Ck now has more private schools than public, so how does that stop the drift?

If they were better resourced and gave better educational outcomes it might.

Tharwa should remain open. It is a direct link to Canberra’s past and moreso it is a working link

I say we close down a lane of Northbourne Avenue, rip up the asphalt, and make it a HC1 lane: Horse and cart with at least 1 non-equine passenger. For histories sake.

if you didn’t get along with the 4 other children in your class then you had no friends

ROFL, that should’ve been the Governments argument all along. “These schools are too small, and kids cannot generate an adequate group of friends”.

Chifley has no bus – would you let your 6 year old cross hindmarsh drive to Woden Interchange adn hang around there.

And Weston Ck now has more private schools than public, so how does that stop the drift?

And I still feel that a school such as Tharwa should remain open. It is a direct link to Canberra’s past and moreso it is a working link. This is very important in my view. Too often we see buildings as such left to go to rack and ruin which it would seem will be the fate for the school

So at what point should the school close? 15 students, 5 students, 0 students but keep a teacher there out of a sense of history?

I’ve got no problem with the site being used for something historical, but as a school everyone loses.

Um – kids don’t know what school they or their friends are going to next year (if their school is closed they ahve to chose one of the others within a few suburbs)

Fair enough, that’s true, but it’s a once only problem

parents have to buy new uniforms books etc

Which is why the ACT government is giving them $750 for out of pocket expenses.

kids who used to walk or get dropped off on teh way to work suddenly have to catch a bus or be driven in the wrong direction, thus leaving the house much earlier.

Almost everywhere will still have a primary school within walking distance.

Superschools are expected to be filled with poor behaviour and bullying as this is the experience of large schools overseas.

Rubbish, prove it. Large schools in places like the USA are bigger than anything proposed here and event here the evidence is inconclusive one way or the other.

And Tharwa and Hall kids will have to catch a 7,30 AM bus to school. If there is one in the new streamlined bus program.

True but the vast majority of the kids at Hall (NSW) and Tharwa (Tuggers) primary schools weren’t from there anyway.

And they won’t be putting all the resourcesa into the new superschools, otherwise they wouldn’t save any moeny, and the whole exercise would be a waste oif time.
Actually if you include the four new schools they are building, the general works program and the IT program they’re put a lot more in than they are saving at least over the next five years. The stated goal of the program was to stop the drift of kids to private schools by giving better resources and outcomes to public students but considering the timing with the costello report I’m sure saving money was part of it as well.

If it means that schools have greater funding or better facilities it is a good thing. However if schools don’t get better funding or facilities as a result of these closures then the whole exercise will have been pointless.

I also think it is good for children to deal with larger crowds as well – better life training.

I think if the Government had announced this list at budget time they would have had a lot less opposition.

Of course they wouldn’t have had the opportunity to appear magnaminous either.

I wonder how the public will feel about being played like this if it is the case?

Of course if they let P&C’s run the schools and also let parents choose where to send their children, only closing obviously failed schools, then none of this would be an ACT-wide problem.

But it would also be less of a power trip for the Minister and his flunkies.

i don’t see what the huge problem is with children not living within walking distance of their schools. i’m sure i’ll get crucified – but…catch a bus. it’s not a big deal.

i went to Hall Primary and it was shit. it was small and had no resources. if you didn’t get along with the 4 other children in your class then you had no friends. i caught a bus at 7:02am all through school – it was the price i paid for living where i did. Transborder buses run a great service and Hall kids had to catch it when they went to high school – now it’s just a little earlier.

i guess parents could be a bit irritated that they bought their suburb for a school that has now gone, but that’s what happens with life. things change and you have no control over it.

wow, all three schools in kambah are definatly closing now..wow. sadly, i know i’ll hear alot more about it tomorrow.

ooh, i just heard on 104.7 news that on the site of kambah high they’re going to make a super school there in 2011. now, remember this? http://the-riotact.com/?p=2912
fuck yeah. thats totally my 5 minutes of fame :

I’m neither, and I’m (at least semi) with Areaman. In that I’m prepared to defend public education, but I’m not prepared to defend sentimental attachment to real estate. If you can deliver the same results (and yes, I’m aware that’s a big if) without having to outlay quite as much on maintaining a large amount of different sites, money available for the rest of the education budget (teachers, other educational resources) should expand. Which is, as I understand it (based on the budget) how this is meant to be working.

Unfortunately, since most of what I’ve heard from the Save-Our-Schools mob has been a lot of sentimental attachment to a particular site, rather than looking at the whole-of-ACT schooling, I’m unable to take their side at face value.

Bullshit, I’m not now nor have I ever been a staffer (though I am a member of the ALP). Look I don’t like how this whole program has been handled at all and think Barr has done a shit house job but I think eight preschools, 11 primary schools and one highschool (which will be replaced by a new school on the same spot) is reasonable, and if you check out that coverage map apart from a small area in Weston kids should still be able to walk to school from almost anywhere.

Um – kids don’t know what school they or their friends are going to next year (if their school is closed they ahve to chose one of the others within a few suburbs), parents have to buy new uniforms books etc, kids who used to walk or get dropped off on teh way to work suddenly have to catch a bus or be driven in the wrong direction, thus leaving the house much earlier.
Superschools are expected to be filled with poor behaviour and bullying as this is the experience of large schools overseas.
And Tharwa and Hall kids will have to catch a 7,30 AM bus to school. If there is one in the new streamlined bus program.
And they won’t be putting all the resourcesa into the new superschools, otherwise they wouldn’t save any moeny, and the whole exercise would be a waste oif time.

Of course that was for areaman – always so quick to defend the Brave Leader, and Andrew “I’ve been fed the shit sandwich” Barr.

Thanks for your helpful “I’m a member of the ALP and a staffer in the Assembly” point of view (undeclared of course.)

“…can someone please explain why this is all so terrible? i thought the idea was that there would be more resources available with the super-school.”

Well, why stop here then? Why not concentrate all schooling in Australia in a super-funded central institution somewhere near Alice Springs?

Bigger rarely means better.

If you use this tool http://grapevine.com.au/~janellek/map/map.html to set up the new system looks like it has pretty good coverage.

…can someone please explain why this is all so terrible? i thought the idea was that there would be more resources available with the super-school.

Especially Tharwa as it is the last working link back to Canberra’s rural past.

I’d say with what, 25 students, it’s wasn’t really working.

Egh, pretty much what I expected. Seems as reasonable as shutting 23 schools and preschools could be. The College system is better protected than it was. nyssa76 isn’t there a p-2 school in Turner somewhere that’s super popular?

anyone in the real estate bis wish to speculate how this will effect house prices in those areas? I’ve got some friends who bought in a particular area with a view to having and then schooling there kids there. They have just had their kids but by the time they need it the schools will be gone

It’s sickening.

They’re still going to bring in those stupid P-2 schools (2009).

I doubt Chief Numpty and his party will be still in Govt by then.

What’s with the Melba/Copeland mix? And the Hawker Collegiate (is that a word?)?

Someone give me a bucket.

also interesting is Weston pre-school whose primary school IS closing….

Appernalty all pre-schools are going to amalgamate witha primary school by 2008. Interesting in Hckett where there is no primary school.
And both Hall and Tharwa primaries are gone – sad.

it is….the two schools near us are still going though 🙁
http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1810533.htm

Ok – the list is now up on ABC – Hackett preschool is staying open.

shit…it is too.

they were announcing them on ABC 666 radio (gotta love that station number) about 15 minutes ago

That’s the old list.
I’ev heard Melrose Primary and Chfley pre-school are gone too.
Dickson is staying – I’m wating on Hackett preschool….

[ED – OUTDATED]

or for the lazy

Schools to close at the end of 2006:

Chifley Preschool
Flynn Preschool
Flynn Primary School
Giralang Preschool
Giralang Primary School
Hackett Preschool
Hall Preschool
Hall Primary School
Macarthur Preschool
McKellar Preschool
Melrose Primary School
Mount Neighbour Preschool
Mount Neighbour Primary School
Reid Preschool
Rivett Preschool
Rivett Primary School
South Curtin Preschool
Tharwa Preschool
Tharwa Primary School
The Causeway Preschool
Weston Creek Preschool
Weston Creek Primary School

Schools to close at the end of 2007:

Cook Preschool
Cook Primary School
Gilmore Preschool
Gilmore Primary School
Kambah High School
Page Preschool
Village Creek Preschool
Village Creek Primary School

Schools to close at the end of 2008:

Dickson College
Higgins Preschool
Higgins Primary School
Holt Preschool
Holt Primary School
Isabella Plains Preschool
Isabella Plains Primary School
Melba Preschool
Mt Rogers Primary School

[ED – OUTDATED]

http://www.abc.net.au/canberra/stories/s1656934.htm

I’ve heard Giralang is saved and Hall is gone.
Wasn’t 2.30 the annoucement – when will we know??