Work starts on $33m infrastructure to grow Molonglo

From this weekend the speed limit on John Gorton Drive between Wyndham Ave and Coppins Crossing Rd, Denman Prospect, will rise from 60kmh to 70kmh. It should have been 70kmh when the road was opened. Thankfully ACT Gov is changing it.

JC said :

chewy14 said :

JC said :

Samuel Gordon-Stewart said :

JC said :

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Butters Bridge is a few hundred metres from the planned John Gorton Bridge, which is hardly “nowhere near each other” when you consider the amount of work required to build either bridge over a fairly deep river valley. Yes, they go in different directions, but the source of the sewerage and the southern part of John Gorton Drive are both in roughly the same place, so it wouldn’t have been hard to do both in the one John Gorton Bridge. The northern end of John Gorton Bridge lands at a spot with an abundance of existing sewerage infrastructure which could be used as a connection.

If the sewerage bridge absolutely had to be separate, there is no reason why it couldn’t have been built without the additional cost of a pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere. Butters Bridge took well over a year to build, mainly because it was more extravagant than necessary.

I do recall the reasons for the GDE being built in halves. The Save The Ridge loons cost the government a small fortune in legal costs, so I don’t blame the ACT Government for building it the way they did. Rather, it amazes me that the pain of that exercise didn’t teach them that it is preferable to build that type of project in one go if possible. I’m glad they’re building dual-carriageways from the get-go in Molonglo, but it’s a shame that these roads and the Cotter Road expansion are all being done in halves.

Think you will find early plans had John Gorton Drive crossing near where the sewerage bridge crosses which on the map above if you were to draw a line at 45 degrees to the M in Molongolo shows the direction it travels.

The map also shows the new alignment which is just west of the existing car bridge which is not that close to the sewerage bridge. And there may well be sewerage infrastructure in the location of the low level bridge, but that doesn’t mean it is useable as is.
And the pleased someone els remembers the real reason behind Gungahlin drive, there was of course another factor which was Federal Liberal government forcing a change of route which in turn put local government in conflict with save the ridge. All cost years of delays and money.

Doesn’t poo usually flow downhill? Which would explain why it might not be linked to a road bridge near the existing Coppins Crossing due to height?

And if you look at the territory plan map for the area, that pedestrian bridge connects the north part of the developments to the south near to what will presumably be a new shopping centre. Seems reasonable enough to want to link the areas for recreation and pedestrians.
http://www.planning.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/895385/Molonglo_Valley_Territory_Plan_Map.pdf

As for the GDE, it had nothing to do with Federal government intervention, the NCA was the proper planning authority that would approve the road and route but the ACT government thought they knew better.

Can I blame ACTPLA if I try to build something inappropriate on my own land because I think it’s OK but ACTPLA force me to alter the design?

In your haste to criticise me think you will find we are actually in agreement with why the poo bridge is where it is and I assumed the pedestrian link would have a use at some point just didn’t know what it connects now.

As for GDE the way the planning works between the NCA and the ACT government outside the parl triangle is a little bit more complex than you make out. The ACT government had every right to propose the route that beat suited them and yes the Feds could object. But that doesn’t change the fact the Feds opposed it for no reason other than petty politics, the fact we still discuss it years later proves the point somewhat.

And to other poster yes it was proposed as single lane to be duplicated later, what the delay caused by save by the ridge debacle did was bring the timeframe between completion and duplication closer togther by about 3 years. So duplication started more or less after completion rather than 5 years as first planned.

Can’t see where I was criticising you, simply pointing out some obvious reasons why that bridge may be where it is.

And the NCA had plenty of good reasons beyond petty politics for preferring the chosen route for the GDE but even if they didn’t, it was still up to the ACT government to actively seek NCA approval. The ACT government can just as easily be accused of playing petty politics in not engaging with the proper planning processes for the area. Indeed, the ACT government’s own lawyers in the Save the Ridge case argued that the NCA had approval authority, so it’s either incompetence or ignorance, neither of which is flattering.

chewy14 said :

JC said :

Samuel Gordon-Stewart said :

JC said :

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Butters Bridge is a few hundred metres from the planned John Gorton Bridge, which is hardly “nowhere near each other” when you consider the amount of work required to build either bridge over a fairly deep river valley. Yes, they go in different directions, but the source of the sewerage and the southern part of John Gorton Drive are both in roughly the same place, so it wouldn’t have been hard to do both in the one John Gorton Bridge. The northern end of John Gorton Bridge lands at a spot with an abundance of existing sewerage infrastructure which could be used as a connection.

If the sewerage bridge absolutely had to be separate, there is no reason why it couldn’t have been built without the additional cost of a pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere. Butters Bridge took well over a year to build, mainly because it was more extravagant than necessary.

I do recall the reasons for the GDE being built in halves. The Save The Ridge loons cost the government a small fortune in legal costs, so I don’t blame the ACT Government for building it the way they did. Rather, it amazes me that the pain of that exercise didn’t teach them that it is preferable to build that type of project in one go if possible. I’m glad they’re building dual-carriageways from the get-go in Molonglo, but it’s a shame that these roads and the Cotter Road expansion are all being done in halves.

Think you will find early plans had John Gorton Drive crossing near where the sewerage bridge crosses which on the map above if you were to draw a line at 45 degrees to the M in Molongolo shows the direction it travels.

The map also shows the new alignment which is just west of the existing car bridge which is not that close to the sewerage bridge. And there may well be sewerage infrastructure in the location of the low level bridge, but that doesn’t mean it is useable as is.
And the pleased someone els remembers the real reason behind Gungahlin drive, there was of course another factor which was Federal Liberal government forcing a change of route which in turn put local government in conflict with save the ridge. All cost years of delays and money.

Doesn’t poo usually flow downhill? Which would explain why it might not be linked to a road bridge near the existing Coppins Crossing due to height?

And if you look at the territory plan map for the area, that pedestrian bridge connects the north part of the developments to the south near to what will presumably be a new shopping centre. Seems reasonable enough to want to link the areas for recreation and pedestrians.
http://www.planning.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/895385/Molonglo_Valley_Territory_Plan_Map.pdf

As for the GDE, it had nothing to do with Federal government intervention, the NCA was the proper planning authority that would approve the road and route but the ACT government thought they knew better.

Can I blame ACTPLA if I try to build something inappropriate on my own land because I think it’s OK but ACTPLA force me to alter the design?

In your haste to criticise me think you will find we are actually in agreement with why the poo bridge is where it is and I assumed the pedestrian link would have a use at some point just didn’t know what it connects now.

As for GDE the way the planning works between the NCA and the ACT government outside the parl triangle is a little bit more complex than you make out. The ACT government had every right to propose the route that beat suited them and yes the Feds could object. But that doesn’t change the fact the Feds opposed it for no reason other than petty politics, the fact we still discuss it years later proves the point somewhat.

And to other poster yes it was proposed as single lane to be duplicated later, what the delay caused by save by the ridge debacle did was bring the timeframe between completion and duplication closer togther by about 3 years. So duplication started more or less after completion rather than 5 years as first planned.

JC said :

Samuel Gordon-Stewart said :

JC said :

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Butters Bridge is a few hundred metres from the planned John Gorton Bridge, which is hardly “nowhere near each other” when you consider the amount of work required to build either bridge over a fairly deep river valley. Yes, they go in different directions, but the source of the sewerage and the southern part of John Gorton Drive are both in roughly the same place, so it wouldn’t have been hard to do both in the one John Gorton Bridge. The northern end of John Gorton Bridge lands at a spot with an abundance of existing sewerage infrastructure which could be used as a connection.

If the sewerage bridge absolutely had to be separate, there is no reason why it couldn’t have been built without the additional cost of a pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere. Butters Bridge took well over a year to build, mainly because it was more extravagant than necessary.

I do recall the reasons for the GDE being built in halves. The Save The Ridge loons cost the government a small fortune in legal costs, so I don’t blame the ACT Government for building it the way they did. Rather, it amazes me that the pain of that exercise didn’t teach them that it is preferable to build that type of project in one go if possible. I’m glad they’re building dual-carriageways from the get-go in Molonglo, but it’s a shame that these roads and the Cotter Road expansion are all being done in halves.

Think you will find early plans had John Gorton Drive crossing near where the sewerage bridge crosses which on the map above if you were to draw a line at 45 degrees to the M in Molongolo shows the direction it travels.

The map also shows the new alignment which is just west of the existing car bridge which is not that close to the sewerage bridge. And there may well be sewerage infrastructure in the location of the low level bridge, but that doesn’t mean it is useable as is.
And the pleased someone els remembers the real reason behind Gungahlin drive, there was of course another factor which was Federal Liberal government forcing a change of route which in turn put local government in conflict with save the ridge. All cost years of delays and money.

Doesn’t poo usually flow downhill? Which would explain why it might not be linked to a road bridge near the existing Coppins Crossing due to height?

And if you look at the territory plan map for the area, that pedestrian bridge connects the north part of the developments to the south near to what will presumably be a new shopping centre. Seems reasonable enough to want to link the areas for recreation and pedestrians.
http://www.planning.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/895385/Molonglo_Valley_Territory_Plan_Map.pdf

As for the GDE, it had nothing to do with Federal government intervention, the NCA was the proper planning authority that would approve the road and route but the ACT government thought they knew better.

Can I blame ACTPLA if I try to build something inappropriate on my own land because I think it’s OK but ACTPLA force me to alter the design?

Samuel Gordon-Stewart said :

JC said :

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Butters Bridge is a few hundred metres from the planned John Gorton Bridge, which is hardly “nowhere near each other” when you consider the amount of work required to build either bridge over a fairly deep river valley. Yes, they go in different directions, but the source of the sewerage and the southern part of John Gorton Drive are both in roughly the same place, so it wouldn’t have been hard to do both in the one John Gorton Bridge. The northern end of John Gorton Bridge lands at a spot with an abundance of existing sewerage infrastructure which could be used as a connection.

If the sewerage bridge absolutely had to be separate, there is no reason why it couldn’t have been built without the additional cost of a pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere. Butters Bridge took well over a year to build, mainly because it was more extravagant than necessary.

I do recall the reasons for the GDE being built in halves. The Save The Ridge loons cost the government a small fortune in legal costs, so I don’t blame the ACT Government for building it the way they did. Rather, it amazes me that the pain of that exercise didn’t teach them that it is preferable to build that type of project in one go if possible. I’m glad they’re building dual-carriageways from the get-go in Molonglo, but it’s a shame that these roads and the Cotter Road expansion are all being done in halves.

Wrong, totally wrong. GDE was always planned as being a lane each way and to be duplicated later when the traffic built up. It was also promised as the way of resolving the inner north’s congestion. There was also a group of people saying it wouldn’t achieve its stated outcomes and the money would be better spent on light rail. It was only during construction that the rhetoric about the proped outcome changed.

One of the greatest ironies was the day it opened, when it filled up with cars and the inner North traffic was still congested.

Samuel Gordon-Stewart said :

JC said :

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Butters Bridge is a few hundred metres from the planned John Gorton Bridge, which is hardly “nowhere near each other” when you consider the amount of work required to build either bridge over a fairly deep river valley. Yes, they go in different directions, but the source of the sewerage and the southern part of John Gorton Drive are both in roughly the same place, so it wouldn’t have been hard to do both in the one John Gorton Bridge. The northern end of John Gorton Bridge lands at a spot with an abundance of existing sewerage infrastructure which could be used as a connection.

If the sewerage bridge absolutely had to be separate, there is no reason why it couldn’t have been built without the additional cost of a pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere. Butters Bridge took well over a year to build, mainly because it was more extravagant than necessary.

I do recall the reasons for the GDE being built in halves. The Save The Ridge loons cost the government a small fortune in legal costs, so I don’t blame the ACT Government for building it the way they did. Rather, it amazes me that the pain of that exercise didn’t teach them that it is preferable to build that type of project in one go if possible. I’m glad they’re building dual-carriageways from the get-go in Molonglo, but it’s a shame that these roads and the Cotter Road expansion are all being done in halves.

Think you will find early plans had John Gorton Drive crossing near where the sewerage bridge crosses which on the map above if you were to draw a line at 45 degrees to the M in Molongolo shows the direction it travels.

The map also shows the new alignment which is just west of the existing car bridge which is not that close to the sewerage bridge. And there may well be sewerage infrastructure in the location of the low level bridge, but that doesn’t mean it is useable as is.
And the pleased someone els remembers the real reason behind Gungahlin drive, there was of course another factor which was Federal Liberal government forcing a change of route which in turn put local government in conflict with save the ridge. All cost years of delays and money.

The language about the intersection is ambiguous at best, misleading at worst. I suspect the upgrade means more traffic lights on William Hovell Drive in the shorter term, which is probably going to be ok for folk exiting John Gorton Drive onto William Hovell. The West Belconnen motorists will scream when they figure it all out, ie when the lights are turned on.

Whatever they do, they have to improve the road rules enforcement for the tradies and heavy trucks going through Molongolo before someone is killed. This clip currently doing the rounds of social media is not unique: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1809237792438864&id=880903861938933

JC said :

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Butters Bridge is a few hundred metres from the planned John Gorton Bridge, which is hardly “nowhere near each other” when you consider the amount of work required to build either bridge over a fairly deep river valley. Yes, they go in different directions, but the source of the sewerage and the southern part of John Gorton Drive are both in roughly the same place, so it wouldn’t have been hard to do both in the one John Gorton Bridge. The northern end of John Gorton Bridge lands at a spot with an abundance of existing sewerage infrastructure which could be used as a connection.

If the sewerage bridge absolutely had to be separate, there is no reason why it couldn’t have been built without the additional cost of a pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere. Butters Bridge took well over a year to build, mainly because it was more extravagant than necessary.

I do recall the reasons for the GDE being built in halves. The Save The Ridge loons cost the government a small fortune in legal costs, so I don’t blame the ACT Government for building it the way they did. Rather, it amazes me that the pain of that exercise didn’t teach them that it is preferable to build that type of project in one go if possible. I’m glad they’re building dual-carriageways from the get-go in Molonglo, but it’s a shame that these roads and the Cotter Road expansion are all being done in halves.

Samuel Gordon-Stewart said :

The amount of double-handling in the development of the Molonglo Valley is extraordinary. To complete the duplication, realignment and renaming of Coppins Crossing Road / John Gorton Drive, a new bridge will have to be built, very near where Butters Bridge, an extravagant excuse to build a pointless pedestrian/cycle bridge from nowhere to nowhere on top of a new sewerage line, was built over the course of the last few years.

It surely would have made more sense to build the road bridge and run the sewerage line across that, and then convert the existing Coppins Crossing bridge in to a pedestrian/cycle bridge if one is really needed there, and not bother building Butters Bridge at all.

And as Spiral noted, the John Gorton/Coulter Drive intersection won’t be properly realigned until some years down the track, creating more hassles and expense.

Apparently the lesson the ACT Government learned from the “one lane now, one lane later” Gungahlin Drive Extension was that doing half a job at a time makes it looks like more work is being done by bureaucrats over an extended period of time and makes construction industry employment stats look better, whereas the public learned that it just makes life harder and costs more.

The bridges you talk of go in different directions and are no where near each other. What the pedestrian bridge connects I have no idea, though I do believe the location and prime function is to get the sewerage main over the river, in which case the flow would have an impact on where that bridge could be located. It is also no where near the existing low level bridge or the planned John Gorton Bridge which is not too far from the current bridge.

It is quite easy to criticise but often there is actually method in what appears to a lay person as madness and don’t start me on Gungahlin Drive, it really surprises me how short many peoples memories are of what really happened with the extension, which goes a long way to explain why it was built the way it was. And fortunately John Gorton drive is being built dual carriage way from the beginning and oddly in some other threads on this board the government has been criticised for wasting money on dual lane roads to nowhere when ‘that money’ could be better spent duplicating elsewhere. Cannot win sometimes hey?

Spiral said :

From what I hear they are not looking at aligning John Gorton and Coulter Drives just yet.

It would seem that this intersection is being planned to be a nightmare once the Whitlam is populated and then they will have to come back and disrupt traffic again to fix it.

Why do they not just realign Coulter Drive now instead of later?

The way I read the wording of the development application was that what they are doing now will include all the intersection works to allow Coulter Drive to be realigned, but the actual realignment is now part of these works. Doesn’t mean that realignment is years away, just a separate work package, nor does it mean that section of road needs rework later.