Your re-sealed roads are rubbish!

Jere13 said :

I thought it was just water from a truck or something, but on closer inspection it’s all the tar and once again the stones are flying. I’m sorry JC, but for all the ‘economical’ arguments for spray seal, the fact is it looks crap, it damages cars, it’s dangerous for cyclists/kids on scooters and skateboards and it’s rough and noisy.

It is not going to the lowest cost per se, it is going to the most economical way to repair a road that still has a perfectly good base but needs maintenance. It has downsides, though as I keep mentioning there are plenty of well done chipsealed roads in the ACT, many I reckon people wouldn’t even realise. Two that come to mind that I have driven on in recent days is Kingsford Smith Drive through Spence and today in Turner on Watson Street. The only way with both you could even tell they were chip is a splattering of small rocks in the gutter and in the case of Watson street comparing to the non resealed carparks on the side. Of course both sections were resealed a while back now, certainly not recent.

So don’t buy the argument all seal is bad, though again will freely admit that how they are doing it piecemeal now, take for example the bit done on William Hovell to Parkes Way where there are squares of it all over the place is not good. Likewise they seem to be using a larger rock even in suburban streets, which likewise is not good.

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

So hopefully no kids run out or ride in front of car unexpectedly on a new chip sealed road because the car won’t stop no matter how hard you push the brake pedal.

Antagonist said :

JC said :

Antagonist said :

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

With no context of time that is right. But throw in some context, yes they leave the rocks for a day or two before sweeping to help them bed in, aided by vehicles driving over them. This is accompanied by a reduced speed limit to minimise rock throw back, not that many do the limit though.

Then they start doing some light sweeps over the course of a week or so to remove the excess, but no heavy enough to bring up any bedded down stones.

Pitman St, Tuggeranong outside the Southern Cross Club. No sweeps done at all – zip, zilch, zero, nuffin, nada, niente. Easily the worst ‘reseal/chipseal’ I have ever seen to boot. It needed redoing almost immediately.

Yep. That bit of road resealing in Pitman street is totally unacceptable and quite frankly, a total disgrace.

Where are the ACT Governments contract management people ? Haven’t they got eyes ??? Can not Katy Gallagher, Andrew Barr and Shane Rattenbury just drive on these roads to see what their crap resealling is doing to our roads ??? No one in their right minds can say that the quality is acceptable. If they are going to tripple our Annual Rates, then at least they can find a better gravel/tar mix for road resurfacing.

And add the stupid speed humps on Pitman Street onto that, sheezzzzzz.

460cixy said :

Yes yet again the roads in Philip are melting and running away good work tams

And right where all the car dealerships are. It must be driving them spare.

JC said :

Antagonist said :

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

With no context of time that is right. But throw in some context, yes they leave the rocks for a day or two before sweeping to help them bed in, aided by vehicles driving over them. This is accompanied by a reduced speed limit to minimise rock throw back, not that many do the limit though.

Then they start doing some light sweeps over the course of a week or so to remove the excess, but no heavy enough to bring up any bedded down stones.

Pitman St, Tuggeranong outside the Southern Cross Club. No sweeps done at all – zip, zilch, zero, nuffin, nada, niente. Easily the worst ‘reseal/chipseal’ I have ever seen to boot. It needed redoing almost immediately.

Yes yet again the roads in Philip are melting and running away good work tams

JC said :

Jere13 said :

So it sounds like the core issue is that asphalt is too expensive given the lack of population to support it.

No that is not the issue. The issue is our roads do not take the same pounding as elsewhere, so when the time comes to reseal them the most cost effective manner is chipseal. Roads that do take a heavier pounding (many main roads in Sydney for example) need more than a reseal so the higher cost hot mix is the only real solution.

The latter is what happens here with intersections, you may notice that few are chip sealed, the reason being vehicles stopping causes damage that needs to be repaired, the repair needs to be hotmix.

Gheeze, has anyone seen the tar seeping through the new seal on Power street in Mawson and the new seal around Phillip in the heat?

I thought it was just water from a truck or something, but on closer inspection it’s all the tar and once again the stones are flying. I’m sorry JC, but for all the ‘economical’ arguments for spray seal, the fact is it looks crap, it damages cars, it’s dangerous for cyclists/kids on scooters and skateboards and it’s rough and noisy. If all our infrastructure is going to go for the lowest cost option let’s not stop there, let’s just go for dirt roads, forget sewage/water infrastructure and get people to install tanks and go back to putting power/phone lines on poles. Let’s really go backwards in the name of cost cutting.

So sick of discovering new stone chips and trying to scub off tar around the wheels of our car.

Jere13 said :

So it sounds like the core issue is that asphalt is too expensive given the lack of population to support it.

No that is not the issue. The issue is our roads do not take the same pounding as elsewhere, so when the time comes to reseal them the most cost effective manner is chipseal. Roads that do take a heavier pounding (many main roads in Sydney for example) need more than a reseal so the higher cost hot mix is the only real solution.

The latter is what happens here with intersections, you may notice that few are chip sealed, the reason being vehicles stopping causes damage that needs to be repaired, the repair needs to be hotmix.

Antagonist said :

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

With no context of time that is right. But throw in some context, yes they leave the rocks for a day or two before sweeping to help them bed in, aided by vehicles driving over them. This is accompanied by a reduced speed limit to minimise rock throw back, not that many do the limit though.

Then they start doing some light sweeps over the course of a week or so to remove the excess, but no heavy enough to bring up any bedded down stones.

JC said :

Jere13 said :

So it appears that it is used in Wollongong but it is certainly less prevalent from my experience. In many ways I would rather roads with significant rutting than driving through the hailstorm of stones we have been putting up with after new seal is laid (although I note that the sweeping has been improving).

So with everything taken into account hotmix is twice as expensive, but everyone would agree that it is hugely superior and there was once a buget for it when it was origionally put down. Personally I would have no problem paying more in my rates/rego to fund better infrastructure but I also take the point that this is a minority view. Is the answer therefore to invest in better quality seals (there seems to be many different types) that may be slightly more expensive but provide more amenity?

Or is it a case of looking at more cost effective ways of producing hotmix? (I’m asking, I don’t know the answer to this).

I just can’t beleive that the current levels of Tyre roar we are getting from the current seal is acceptable for the capital of a developed nation.

400 roads in 5 years (source the document I linked to above). That works out to be 80 per year. Seems to be more than the yearly ACT schedule.

And yes even I will agree that hotmix is far superior road surface, much better to drive on, much quieter etc, the core issue is on of cost. We don’t have endless rivers of money, so chip is the sensible alternative. Whilst you may well be willing to pay extra, I for one am willing to put up with chip because it is the more sensible thing to do.

You are also right there are different grades, take for example many of the suburban streets in Canberra. I reckon many would drive on them not even knowing they are chip. Get onto the main suburban streets and the rock size increases, and goes up again on main arterial roads. Will also agree that the Federal Highway on the ACT side was not done well and is very noisy, but it has been matched by many stretched of similar chip on the NSW side and on the Hume, as listed above. Not to mention the concrete roads which themselves are not entirely quiet either.

PS this coming from someone who had to recently get a new windscreen because of rock damage from new chip seal. Now before we start blaming the ACT government, this was on the Hay plain and was caused by a stupid truck driver overtaking me in the temporary 60km/h zone as the rocks had only just been laid.

Yeah, and this is precisely the problem. It’s all well and good to put up 60km signs, but how often will some idiot in a old, banged up ute come past at 80km will little regard for anyone that actually cares about their cars.

So it sounds like the core issue is that asphalt is too expensive given the lack of population to support it. Chipseal has been done very poorly in the past but it is improving. Perhaps if more care and effort was taken to improve the ride/noise effects of chipseal but improving practice and methods there is a half way point here.I’m glad to hear that the stuff used on the ACT side of the federal hwy is not normal as that is honestly so noisy in our car it’s difficult to talk to the person next to you.

There is one street with chipseal I can think of in Wollongong that was recently done with chipseal and they seem to have used a layer of very fine aggerate on the final surface and I will agree, there is not a lot of difference between that and asphalt. I just haven’t seen that sort of quality seal used in the ACT yet. Some of the aggeregate is pushing the size of bluemetal.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=cordeaux+heights&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&ei=HCTPUpHHEIfKkgWFooGwDw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

Here’s hoping the quality improves. I’d like to see more nice cars on the road and at the moment, you’d have to be crazy to buy a high end sports car in this territory with roads like he have. We have a sedan at the moment and we’re thinking of a 4wd for the next car based purely on mitigating the noise effects from the crappy roads.

Very Busy said :

My biggest gripe with the chip seal method of maintenance is that the roads no are no longer properly cleaned up after the reseal is done. If we must put up with this crappy maintenance regime at least TAMS could show just a little bit of consideration and ensure that loose stones are properly removed after the resealing is done. A PROPER cleanup needs to be done initially after the reseal is done and follow up cleanups need to be done on at least 2 further occasions over the following couple of months.

I really do have trouble with the fact that the ACT Government finds it acceptable for loose stones to remain in gutters and on centre median strips for years after the work is done. These loose stones invariably end up back on the road surface and cause damage to vehicles. I just think that the ACT Government has lost touch with reality and has its priorities all messed up. Basic stuff gets neglected.

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

Very Busy said :

My biggest gripe with the chip seal method of maintenance is that the roads no are no longer properly cleaned up after the reseal is done. If we must put up with this crappy maintenance regime at least TAMS could show just a little bit of consideration and ensure that loose stones are properly removed after the resealing is done. A PROPER cleanup needs to be done initially after the reseal is done and follow up cleanups need to be done on at least 2 further occasions over the following couple of months.

I really do have trouble with the fact that the ACT Government finds it acceptable for loose stones to remain in gutters and on centre median strips for years after the work is done. These loose stones invariably end up back on the road surface and cause damage to vehicles. I just think that the ACT Government has lost touch with reality and has its priorities all messed up. Basic stuff gets neglected.

Actually it is the responsibility of the company doing the seal to sweep up loose stones, and it is funny there is a post above somewhere where they mention that cleaning up is something that is improving.

I recall they resealed most of Osburn Drive in Macgregor the summer before last and the contractor EDI had a road sweeper out more or less every day for a week after the reseal and once the line marking went down you would be hard pressed to know the road was a recent reseal, for all the good reasons.

IrishPete said :

JC said :

IrishPete said :

I guess you are all driving old cars that don’t have instantaneous fuel consumption on display. Mine does, therefore I can tell when a scenario is producing better fuel economy. I didn’t helicopter to Goulburn on the trip I described, I drove there. From Goulburn onwards the fuel economy greatly improved, possibly by about 20%, definitely by 10%. I am willing to accept that gradient played a part, but my best fuel economy is achieved around 80 or 90, not 120, so to get such a superb result at 120ish is really impressive. .

I have no reason to think the diesel I bought in Goulburn was any different to what I usually get.

IP

Next time you drive to Sydney would love to know what the instantaneous economy figures are on the sections of the Federal and Hume that are chipsealed. There are many sections now. My bet sweet truck all difference.

I don’t drive on the Federal. Instantaneous isn’t a great comparison, as there can be other differences like gradient, speed, air conditioning or window open to smoke, which affect it. So I wouldn’t ue it for a direct comparison, though it was clear to me that it started with a 4 most of the way to Sydney from Goulburn, a number I never see on this region’s roads (except downhill).

Sorry miss read what you were getting at.

My biggest gripe with the chip seal method of maintenance is that the roads no are no longer properly cleaned up after the reseal is done. If we must put up with this crappy maintenance regime at least TAMS could show just a little bit of consideration and ensure that loose stones are properly removed after the resealing is done. A PROPER cleanup needs to be done initially after the reseal is done and follow up cleanups need to be done on at least 2 further occasions over the following couple of months.

I really do have trouble with the fact that the ACT Government finds it acceptable for loose stones to remain in gutters and on centre median strips for years after the work is done. These loose stones invariably end up back on the road surface and cause damage to vehicles. I just think that the ACT Government has lost touch with reality and has its priorities all messed up. Basic stuff gets neglected.

JC said :

Anti said :

They chip sealed , street fyshwick in November. It is a heavy truck heavy used road

Yes Fyshwick sees more than its share of heavy vehicles but the roads don’t take a pounding like the stop start Sydney traffic (which, coupled with weight causes the road damage) and besides the bulk of the trucks around Fyshwick are lighter delivery trucks. Go to Sydney you see them too plus shit loads of semi trailers, B doubles etc on main suburban roads.

Now haven’t seen Nyrang Street, but did drive on Newcastle street the other day and the seal job on that has been done ok.

I drove along Nyrang St last week and didn’t notice the road surface.

JC said :

IrishPete said :

I guess you are all driving old cars that don’t have instantaneous fuel consumption on display. Mine does, therefore I can tell when a scenario is producing better fuel economy. I didn’t helicopter to Goulburn on the trip I described, I drove there. From Goulburn onwards the fuel economy greatly improved, possibly by about 20%, definitely by 10%. I am willing to accept that gradient played a part, but my best fuel economy is achieved around 80 or 90, not 120, so to get such a superb result at 120ish is really impressive. .

I have no reason to think the diesel I bought in Goulburn was any different to what I usually get.

IP

Next time you drive to Sydney would love to know what the instantaneous economy figures are on the sections of the Federal and Hume that are chipsealed. There are many sections now. My bet sweet truck all difference.

I don’t drive on the Federal. Instantaneous isn’t a great comparison, as there can be other differences like gradient, speed, air conditioning or window open to smoke, which affect it. So I wouldn’t ue it for a direct comparison, though it was clear to me that it started with a 4 most of the way to Sydney from Goulburn, a number I never see on this region’s roads (except downhill).

I don’t think I’ve mentioned chipseal versus the alternative, and I’m not sure I would be able to tell the difference after it’s been in place for a while. I was commenting more generally on the road surface. But I can see how this chipseal debate has drowned out that question. I shall retire without an answer to the question of whether road surface, ANY surface, can affect economy. (Forgot to mention that I got fantastic economy on the drive to Nowra on the backroad too – average 5l/100km on that trip; lots of nice new tarmac on it, but also some squiggly dirt and steep uphill sections.)

IP

JC said :

Get the drift? Chip will never cost more, unless it is done 6 times as often.

Your figures (which are no less arbitrary than mine) conveniently ignores the ‘satisfactory’ surfaces of 8/10 year hotmix versus 6/10 year chipseal I used in my example to illustrate the core component of my point. So one is unsatisfactory for 2 years in 10, versus 4 years in 10. The effect of the unsatisfactory surface is more wear on the cars suspension/tyres/paint/windscreens, which also does not get factored into either of our figures. The true cost saving, therefore, would be far less than the ‘6 times’ you espouse.

It is worth noting at this point that we are splitting hairs over a hypothetical. I raised the point because I think the underlying philosophy around cost versus benefit are short-term (but longer than the term of an elected government), less than they appear on the surface, and do not take account of all of some of the hidden costs.

IrishPete said :

I guess you are all driving old cars that don’t have instantaneous fuel consumption on display. Mine does, therefore I can tell when a scenario is producing better fuel economy. I didn’t helicopter to Goulburn on the trip I described, I drove there. From Goulburn onwards the fuel economy greatly improved, possibly by about 20%, definitely by 10%. I am willing to accept that gradient played a part, but my best fuel economy is achieved around 80 or 90, not 120, so to get such a superb result at 120ish is really impressive. .

I have no reason to think the diesel I bought in Goulburn was any different to what I usually get.

IP

Next time you drive to Sydney would love to know what the instantaneous economy figures are on the sections of the Federal and Hume that are chipsealed. There are many sections now. My bet sweet truck all difference.

Jere13 said :

So it appears that it is used in Wollongong but it is certainly less prevalent from my experience. In many ways I would rather roads with significant rutting than driving through the hailstorm of stones we have been putting up with after new seal is laid (although I note that the sweeping has been improving).

So with everything taken into account hotmix is twice as expensive, but everyone would agree that it is hugely superior and there was once a buget for it when it was origionally put down. Personally I would have no problem paying more in my rates/rego to fund better infrastructure but I also take the point that this is a minority view. Is the answer therefore to invest in better quality seals (there seems to be many different types) that may be slightly more expensive but provide more amenity?

Or is it a case of looking at more cost effective ways of producing hotmix? (I’m asking, I don’t know the answer to this).

I just can’t beleive that the current levels of Tyre roar we are getting from the current seal is acceptable for the capital of a developed nation.

400 roads in 5 years (source the document I linked to above). That works out to be 80 per year. Seems to be more than the yearly ACT schedule.

And yes even I will agree that hotmix is far superior road surface, much better to drive on, much quieter etc, the core issue is on of cost. We don’t have endless rivers of money, so chip is the sensible alternative. Whilst you may well be willing to pay extra, I for one am willing to put up with chip because it is the more sensible thing to do.

You are also right there are different grades, take for example many of the suburban streets in Canberra. I reckon many would drive on them not even knowing they are chip. Get onto the main suburban streets and the rock size increases, and goes up again on main arterial roads. Will also agree that the Federal Highway on the ACT side was not done well and is very noisy, but it has been matched by many stretched of similar chip on the NSW side and on the Hume, as listed above. Not to mention the concrete roads which themselves are not entirely quiet either.

PS this coming from someone who had to recently get a new windscreen because of rock damage from new chip seal. Now before we start blaming the ACT government, this was on the Hay plain and was caused by a stupid truck driver overtaking me in the temporary 60km/h zone as the rocks had only just been laid.

Antagonist said :

Lets say for arguments sake that hot mix lasts for 10 years and chip seal lasts for 5 years. Let us also assume that both last well until the last 2 years of their life. This would mean the hot mix road is considered ‘satisfactory’ for 8 years out of 10, while the chip seal is ‘satisfactory’ for 6 years out of 10.

IF this scenario were true (and it is little more than a hypothetical) then the chip seal would not provide good value for money at all. In fact, there are many examples of chip seal lasting far less than the arbitrary figures used for this hypothetical.

While I hate paying taxes of any kind, I would be much happier paying a higher rego fee if it was used specifically for better quality *hotmix* road resurfacing.

It would not be good value IF it cost the same. It doesn’t. Chip costs 1/4 the cost of a full reseal, but has to be done twice as often, so ends up being half the cost.

So using your figures of hotmix lasting 10 and chip 5 (which aren’t too far off the mark) we have:

New build road which is hotmix, lasts 10 years.

At the 10 year mark it needs re-work.

Hot mix resurface, lets say costs $10,000 per what ever, these figures are not real, but the importance is the comparison not the actual figure.

Chip seal costs 1/4 that, so $2,500. So after 10 years our maintenance cost is $10,000 for hotmix and $2,500 for seal.

At 15 year mark, chipseal needs redoing, but not hotmix as we get another 10 years. So another dose of chip another $2,500, so running total now is hotmix $10,000, chip $5,000

At 20 year mark hotmix needs doing again, so another $10,000, chip also needs doing so another $2,500, so running total hotmix $20,000, chip seal $7,500

At 25 year mark hotmix doesn’t need doing, but chip does so another $2,500, so running total hotmix $20,000, chip seal $10,000.

Get the drift? Chip will never cost more, unless it is done 6 times as often.

There’s signs on the Parkway between Cotter Rd and Lakeside Interchange which may indicate an imminent chip seal application (Roadworks Commence….)

Catchpole St in Macquarie also has the resealing signs

gazket said :

There are a lot of stop start 80kph sections in the ACT. Thats why you get shite fuel economy in Canberra .

I guess you are all driving old cars that don’t have instantaneous fuel consumption on display. Mine does, therefore I can tell when a scenario is producing better fuel economy. I didn’t helicopter to Goulburn on the trip I described, I drove there. From Goulburn onwards the fuel economy greatly improved, possibly by about 20%, definitely by 10%. I am willing to accept that gradient played a part, but my best fuel economy is achieved around 80 or 90, not 120, so to get such a superb result at 120ish is really impressive. .

I have no reason to think the diesel I bought in Goulburn was any different to what I usually get.

IP

Alderney said :

gazket said :

Labor have been the gov for years now, they’re busted arse broke. This cheap chip sealing of roads is just wasting money and pissing in our pockets.

The collective idiocy of the combined Canberra electorates, in returning one party to government time and time again, creates an opposition which does not know how to behave as a government (alternate or otherwise) and a government that believes it can continue to treat the electorate with contempt with impunity.

Look forward to more of the same

Sounds like an argument for minority governments. Politicians need to lose the adversarial attitude they learned at law school, and learn to work together. I actually think politician parties should be banned. They are in local government in WA I think.

IP

johnboy said :

rego doesn’t pay for much, you guys need to be thinking about petrol excise

I refer you to post number 38.

IP

Lets say for arguments sake that hot mix lasts for 10 years and chip seal lasts for 5 years. Let us also assume that both last well until the last 2 years of their life. This would mean the hot mix road is considered ‘satisfactory’ for 8 years out of 10, while the chip seal is ‘satisfactory’ for 6 years out of 10.

IF this scenario were true (and it is little more than a hypothetical) then the chip seal would not provide good value for money at all. In fact, there are many examples of chip seal lasting far less than the arbitrary figures used for this hypothetical.

While I hate paying taxes of any kind, I would be much happier paying a higher rego fee if it was used specifically for better quality *hotmix* road resurfacing.

JC said :

Some more examples of chip seal in the Illawarra.

Newspaper article complaining along with picture:

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/618188/resealed-lawrence-hargrave-rd-in-worse-state-than-before/

Or how about the local councils website. Go to the link below, then find roads. The 2nd point talks about chip seal and concerns about rocks etc and provides a link to the maintenance schedule!

So they clearly do it!

Or how about this PDF, where someone in the area asked why a street was chip sealed. The council has provided a VERY good answer as to why and mentiones they have done 400 streets in 5 years.

http://www.wollongong.nsw.gov.au/council/haveyoursay/neighbourhoodforums/NeighbourhoodForums/NF6%20Actions%20February%202013.pdf

http://www.wollongong.nsw.gov.au/customerserviceonline/Lists/FAQs/AllItems.aspx

Thanks mate, some good research there.

So it appears that it is used in Wollongong but it is certainly less prevalent from my experience. In many ways I would rather roads with significant rutting than driving through the hailstorm of stones we have been putting up with after new seal is laid (although I note that the sweeping has been improving).

So with everything taken into account hotmix is twice as expensive, but everyone would agree that it is hugely superior and there was once a buget for it when it was origionally put down. Personally I would have no problem paying more in my rates/rego to fund better infrastructure but I also take the point that this is a minority view. Is the answer therefore to invest in better quality seals (there seems to be many different types) that may be slightly more expensive but provide more amenity?

Or is it a case of looking at more cost effective ways of producing hotmix? (I’m asking, I don’t know the answer to this).

I just can’t beleive that the current levels of Tyre roar we are getting from the current seal is acceptable for the capital of a developed nation.

Anti said :

They chip sealed , street fyshwick in November. It is a heavy truck heavy used road

Yes Fyshwick sees more than its share of heavy vehicles but the roads don’t take a pounding like the stop start Sydney traffic (which, coupled with weight causes the road damage) and besides the bulk of the trucks around Fyshwick are lighter delivery trucks. Go to Sydney you see them too plus shit loads of semi trailers, B doubles etc on main suburban roads.

Now haven’t seen Nyrang Street, but did drive on Newcastle street the other day and the seal job on that has been done ok.

They chip sealed nyrang street fyshwick in November. It is a heavy truck heavy used road. It was pathetic and had bare wet patches for weeks. They came back one day and actually put dirt on it. a week later another reseal. Again poor.. They have no idea at all

Some more examples of chip seal in the Illawarra.

Newspaper article complaining along with picture:

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/618188/resealed-lawrence-hargrave-rd-in-worse-state-than-before/

Or how about the local councils website. Go to the link below, then find roads. The 2nd point talks about chip seal and concerns about rocks etc and provides a link to the maintenance schedule!

So they clearly do it!

Or how about this PDF, where someone in the area asked why a street was chip sealed. The council has provided a VERY good answer as to why and mentiones they have done 400 streets in 5 years.

http://www.wollongong.nsw.gov.au/council/haveyoursay/neighbourhoodforums/NeighbourhoodForums/NF6%20Actions%20February%202013.pdf

http://www.wollongong.nsw.gov.au/customerserviceonline/Lists/FAQs/AllItems.aspx

Jere13 said :

It might be a fluke, but I frequently visit family in Wollongong and there doesn’t seem to be much chipseal around at all. I don’t understand why with a similar population, the Illawarra region doesn’t seem to be plagued by this stuff like we are.

You might be right. Just did some random street view searches of Wollongon Roads and found many roads just like the ones in the link below.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=wollongong&ll=-34.394268,150.885237&spn=0.007543,0.016469&client=opera&channel=suggest&hnear=Wollongong+New+South+Wales&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=-34.394268,150.885237&panoid=ZCczsEgq2CYXcLpUolNb8A&cbp=12,258.79,,0,5.63

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=wollongong&ll=-34.395791,150.884722&spn=0.001886,0.004117&client=opera&channel=suggest&hnear=Wollongong+New+South+Wales&t=h&layer=c&cbll=-34.395791,150.884722&panoid=GNj9s8QPjZMCjLJ8LZTmYA&cbp=12,103.61,,0,25.15&z=19

Guess the reason there is no seal is because they do no preventative maintenance what so ever!

Though this road looks a lot like chipseal, and like some in Canberra starting to wear a bit.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=wollongong&ll=-34.385622,150.907862&spn=0.007544,0.016469&client=opera&channel=suggest&hnear=Wollongong+New+South+Wales&t=h&layer=c&cbll=-34.385622,150.907862&panoid=C_gj_2MgzsE2PGYZ_eq5QA&cbp=12,87.39,,1,18.79&z=17

Jere13 said :

It might be a fluke, but I frequently visit family in Wollongong and there doesn’t seem to be much chipseal around at all. I don’t understand why with a similar population, the Illawarra region doesn’t seem to be plagued by this stuff like we are.

Next you will be telling me you have never seen any in QBN or Jerra too.

gazket said :

Labor have been the gov for years now, they’re busted arse broke. This cheap chip sealing of roads is just wasting money and pissing in our pockets.

Not sure the relevance of your anti Labor rant, as chip seal has been used in Canberra since well before self government, ironically at the time when the feds still put lots of money into Canberra and its roads.

Whilst I do agree the road surface isn’t that great and I too love to drive on gold plated roads, the statement that it is wasting our money is ignorant bulls***. I mentioned it above chip seal is 1/4 of the cost of a resurface, but yes needs to be done twice as often. So in essence is, over the same period of time it is still 1/2 the cost. So how is that a waste?

gazket said :

Labor have been the gov for years now, they’re busted arse broke. This cheap chip sealing of roads is just wasting money and pissing in our pockets.

The collective idiocy of the combined Canberra electorates, in returning one party to government time and time again, creates an opposition which does not know how to behave as a government (alternate or otherwise) and a government that believes it can continue to treat the electorate with contempt with impunity.

Look forward to more of the same

There are a lot of stop start 80kph sections in the ACT. Thats why you get shite fuel economy in Canberra .

Labor have been the gov for years now, they’re busted arse broke. This cheap chip sealing of roads is just wasting money and pissing in our pockets.

We have 3 under pass bridges in my suburb as you know the road sinks either side of the underpass and causes a sharp drop off on the edges. 4 months ago One was fixed properly, The second they just re made the big dip that was already there so it’s just the same as it was before and the 3rd it’s the worst of the 3 with an 80mm drop off and foot wide trench they didn’t do anything to it, It’s pretty much a inverted speed cushion.

JC said :

Zeital said :

I would love to see the cost benefit of doing a road right the 1st time compared to doing a shitty job X-amount of times in terms of time spent doing/fixing etc.

Most of our roads are done properly the first time, Glenloch interchange being an exception for some reason.

The problem of course is 10-15 years after they are built they, get this, need a thing called maintenance, yes maintenance because the surface has become semi pours, which allows water to get underneath which in turn then damages the pavement.

The options are rip it up the top layer of road, reseal and relay with hot mix it or spray a layer of bituminous material to reseal the road, which then needs an aggregate to form a road surface with grip.

Now unlike Sydney main roads for example our roads do not see much traffic, especially heavy vehicles which destroy the pavement. So the most cost effective thing to do is reseal. By all accounts reseal is 1/4 of the cost of a resurface and has to be done every 5-8 years. A resurface only needs to be done every 8-12 years but yes gives a better driving surface. So reseal, despite needing to be done twice as often end up being half the cost.

So as I say all the time it comes down to whether you are prepared to dip into your pocket to pay double for the road maintenance budget just to have a smoother road surface?

Canberra is no different to anywhere else in the country in using chip seal. Though in other places, again using Sydney as an example you will only generally see it in the suburban roads as main roads generally get resurfaced as heavy vehicles in particular destroy the surface meaning a resurface is the only option.

Around here you will see intersections are normally resurfaced, because vehicles stopping deform the road surface, meaning a resurface is the way to go.

It might be a fluke, but I frequently visit family in Wollongong and there doesn’t seem to be much chipseal around at all. I don’t understand why with a similar population, the Illawarra region doesn’t seem to be plagued by this stuff like we are.

Jere13 said :

Aparently they are trialing cape seal in two locations, so let’s hope things get better.

Where are the two locations?

He didn’t say. I would like to know also to see what it’s like.

Gungahlin Al said :

I was talking to Katy Gallagher (then Treasurer) and Tony Gill about this issue in one Community Cabinet Meeting at Harrison.

I asked what the resealing cycle is for Canberra Streets. “20 years” I was told.

I asked what is the life cycle of their chipseal approach to resealing streets? “15 years” I was told.

Now unless something’s seriously wrong with my Grade 1 maths, that does not represent a sustainable solution…

I will happily state I have never had a satisfactory answer from Tony Gill. Sure, that may be a result of the questions I’ve asked, but your example is a perfect illustration of his community engagement.

Hence why I said more of the $900, I think the amount we pay for CTPI is s***box.

Zeital said :

JC said :

Zeital said :

I would love to see the cost benefit of doing a road right the 1st time compared to doing a shitty job X-amount of times in terms of time spent doing/fixing etc.

So as I say all the time it comes down to whether you are prepared to dip into your pocket to pay double for the road maintenance budget just to have a smoother road surface?

Sure if more of my $900 (NRMA) of my rego went into the maintenance of the roads sure wouldn’t mind paying a bit more…… IF they didn’t use rocks that where almost 1-2cm in length to fix the road……

Your “rego” is only $304 of the annual amount you pay. The main component of your annual fee is the compulsory 3rd party insurance, which costs $578.20. Then there’s $19 of odds and ends fees.

I’d suggest that if you were actually paying $900 bucks to GovCo, rather than just $300, they may well spend a lot more on the roads.

JC said :

Zeital said :

I would love to see the cost benefit of doing a road right the 1st time compared to doing a shitty job X-amount of times in terms of time spent doing/fixing etc.

So as I say all the time it comes down to whether you are prepared to dip into your pocket to pay double for the road maintenance budget just to have a smoother road surface?

Sure if more of my $900 (NRMA) of my rego went into the maintenance of the roads sure wouldn’t mind paying a bit more…… IF they didn’t use rocks that where almost 1-2cm in length to fix the road……

IrishPete said :

re: fuel economy – several months back I refuelled at Goulburn on the drive to Sydney airport. I got well under 5.0L/100km for the rest of the journey at 120km/h mostly on the cruise control. (2009 Astra Diesel Manual.) There’s a bit of a downhill gradient, but I get nothing like that on roads around here, average (and spot) economy being between 5.5 and 6.0. I did wonder how much was a consequence of the road surface.

re: nothing at all – I was in the newer parts of northern Canberra today and was a bit annoyed that Horse Park Drive doesn’t exist in the middle. (Is it closed or unfinished?) Interesting to see a bike lane on both sides of the road on one stretch, and a shared bike-pedestrian path along the side! Very generous.

IP

Re economy, bugger all difference, as someone else mentioned you better economy is solely due to running on the highway for hours on end without stopping.

As for Horse Park Drive, just as a matter of interest the bit from Gungahlin to the Federal was built as a cheap temporary alignment, so is chip over stabalised base. Bit like how they first did Gungahlin Drive when it went into Mitchell rather than around.

I am surprised with more of the suburbs on that stretch now being finished the final alignment hasn’t been done.

Mark of Sydney said :

It really strikes you when after driving from Sydney — after 270 km of well maintained motorway you hit the roar of chip seal at the ACT border for just maybe 3 or 4 km before it gets quiet again on Northbourne Avenue at Watson. And I can’t see it has anything to do with traffic levels on this stretch of road.

PS one more thing with the well maintained motorway, do you not think the Federal as you go into Canberra is well maintained? Got some news chip seal is maintenance.

I always use this analogy but at home if you have some timber outside that has been up for 10 years and is starting to show signs of weathering do you repaint it or replace it? The answer of course it depends. If the timber below is rotting you may well replace it, but if it is ok I am sure as shit you will just repaint. Same too with the roads. If the underlying surface is still ok you reseal, if it is rooted you replace.

Mark of Sydney said :

I just don’t buy this. Following previously expressed comments that road surfacing practices in Canberra are no different to elsewhere in Australia I’ve made a point of looking at roads across the inner and middle suburbs of Sydney. And I’ve yet to see the same poor surfaces anywhere in Sydney, even on quiet suburban streets, that you see even on main roads here in Canberra. Chip seal used on roads such as Mort Street in Braddon (along with dusty and litter-strewn verges) and National Circuit in Barton is just shabby. The standard of maintenance (of roads and other elements of the public realm) are poor for a state let alone national capital.

It really strikes you when after driving from Sydney — after 270 km of well maintained motorway you hit the roar of chip seal at the ACT border for just maybe 3 or 4 km before it gets quiet again on Northbourne Avenue at Watson. And I can’t see it has anything to do with traffic levels on this stretch of road.

The inner suburbs of Sydney had a lot of roads built with concrete bases (especially the areas that used to have trams). They hold up a lot better but they make for very clunky roads to drive on. Now not sure what you consider inner or middle, but my last trip I went to Rockdale where seal is very common on the suburban streets, I also went to Northmead, again common. Between the two I was on main roads, which as mentioned are normally hot mix due to traffic damaging them.

As for the 270km of great highway from Sydney, again take a close look or a listen. My last trip up that road was just last week. Heading up in Canberra yes chip seal. Then you hit the NSW border and you see a 13 year old road surface that is seeing the first signs of needing to be resealed (the squiggly lines). I reckon it will be chip sealed within 2 years.

You then get onto one of the oldest concrete sections of the Federal at Sutton Road which isn’t too bad, though some rutting is noticeable which translates to road noise. You then pass onto a newer section of concrete at Brooks Creek, which is very rutted and noisy, this follows onto the lake George section which is also rutted and noisy. After collector you now get into a section of hot mix road that has been chip sealed, just like in the ACT. Now if you were coming back towards the ACT you will also see a section about 10km before Collector that was recently (last 6-12 months) done using chip over stabalised base (bit like what they did on Glenloch and the Clarrie Hermese Road extension), which like those two is already starting to break up.

But heading north you join the Hume highway and I am pretty sure the bit just before Goulburn is chip seal. Next the Goulburn bypass, northbound over the floor plane the concrete broke up so badly it has been replaced.

After Goulburn you get a mix of hot mix road and reseal, then next concrete around Marulan, which is in pretty bad shape. After that towards Sutton Forest more hot mix with a bit of chip seal thrown in. Cannot remember if it was on the Sydney or Goulburn side of Marulan, (think Goulburn) but northbound there is a few KM of fresh seal, so fresh it didn’t have the line markings on it last week.

But heading north again, after Sutton Forrest you get onto the Berrima and Mittagong bypasses, which are concrete. Again not too bad except for some rutting and a few repaired areas. Now after that then you hit the final hot mix section into Sydney. Don’t recall any chip seal on this bit.

So really that 270km/h has many sections of chip seal, which it would seem is expanding. Concrete roads which are just as noisy, unless you are a right hand lane hogg where it is much quieter as less heavy vehicle traffic in those lanes. The concrete is also showing signs of wear, but alas repairing isn’t as easy as throwing over a layer of hotmix, this in itself causes issues. And yes some sections of pure hotmix.

troll-sniffer said :

OK whingers, here’s what you need to do. Get a sufficient number of Canberrans together who are willing to put their money where their aspirations lie, and campaign for a substantial increase in rates to pay for your preferred road maintenance program. Once you get a majority of Canberrans on board to approve your hefty increase in annual bills, put it to the government of the day and chances are you’ll get your precious roads. Somehow my highly tuned community radar suggests you’ve got a snowflake’s chance in Kununurra of getting any changes to what is the best all-round compromise.

I reckon there might just be a few outback towns that forlornly dream of maybe one day in the distant future enjoying roads even half as good as the ones being complained about in this thread.

Doesn’t have to be Rates, which are also paid by non-drivers. it could be registration fees, or licence fees. Unfortunately, federal law means the ACT can’t slap a levy on fuel, which would be the most direct way of relating the tax to the amount you use the road. really registration fees shuld be abolished and replaced with an increased fuel tax.

However, GST revenue should be increasing with fuel prices.

There’s nothing wrong with the idea of hypothecated taxes, but politicians hate them because they remove the “flexibility” (read, “smoke and mirrors”) in government spending. Does anyone believe the Medicare Levy covers the costs of Medicare, or government health services generally? No, it’s just income tax by another name, it’s just that no politician is brave enough to abolish it and roll it into income tax because the tabloid media (TV, radio and newspapers) would lambast them for “increasing income tax” even if the net effect was zero (Same argument for “National insurance” in the UK.).

IP

c_c™ said :

Fuel economy on specific trips is a poor indicator of road surface quality. For one, it’s impossible to really isolate the effect of surface from the effect of tire pressure, design and wear.

Getting fantastic fuel economy on a trip to Sydney is to be expected compared to driving in the city, doubtful road surface makes any difference at all. My fuel consumption tends to be around 9.8 and never goes above 10.3 when around Canberra.

On the Federal-Hume from Canberra to Sydney, I get down to 8.3. Those figures are all for a V6 running 95 fuel.

A trip down the Kings which has a mixture of speed zones, some areas with very poor surface quality and a lot of bends requiring braking, still sees my fuel consumption drop to 8.6-8.9.

Over a longer period, if the roads in Canberra were of a quality that was having a deleterious effect on tyres and fuel economy, then you would actually expect the tyres to wear quicker and therefore fuel consumption to improve.

Now I drive on softer compound tyres designed for performance over comfort and longevity, I believe the tread rating is only 220. The main width of the tread lasts as long as you’d expect for that style of tyre. However the outer edges on the front tyres wear far quicker, and that’s thanks to Canberra’s roundabouts.

True, I know it’s a poor example, but my commute to the ACT is a constant 100km/h (well, 120 most of the time). Driving within Canberra actually makes very little difference to my fuel economy, presumably a consequence of the characteristics of the diesel engine. My last (current – awaiting replacement) set of tyres wore out really quickly, but I am not reading too much into that either.

Fuel economy on specific trips is a poor indicator of road surface quality. For one, it’s impossible to really isolate the effect of surface from the effect of tire pressure, design and wear.

Getting fantastic fuel economy on a trip to Sydney is to be expected compared to driving in the city, doubtful road surface makes any difference at all. My fuel consumption tends to be around 9.8 and never goes above 10.3 when around Canberra.

On the Federal-Hume from Canberra to Sydney, I get down to 8.3. Those figures are all for a V6 running 95 fuel.

A trip down the Kings which has a mixture of speed zones, some areas with very poor surface quality and a lot of bends requiring braking, still sees my fuel consumption drop to 8.6-8.9.

Over a longer period, if the roads in Canberra were of a quality that was having a deleterious effect on tyres and fuel economy, then you would actually expect the tyres to wear quicker and therefore fuel consumption to improve.

Now I drive on softer compound tyres designed for performance over comfort and longevity, I believe the tread rating is only 220. The main width of the tread lasts as long as you’d expect for that style of tyre. However the outer edges on the front tyres wear far quicker, and that’s thanks to Canberra’s roundabouts.

troll-sniffer said :

OK whingers, here’s what you need to do. Get a sufficient number of Canberrans together who are willing to put their money where their aspirations lie, and campaign for a substantial increase in rates to pay for your preferred road maintenance program. Once you get a majority of Canberrans on board to approve your hefty increase in annual bills, put it to the government of the day and chances are you’ll get your precious roads. Somehow my highly tuned community radar suggests you’ve got a snowflake’s chance in Kununurra of getting any changes to what is the best all-round compromise.

I reckon there might just be a few outback towns that forlornly dream of maybe one day in the distant future enjoying roads even half as good as the ones being complained about in this thread.

When rates triple, the roads will be paved with gold…

OK whingers, here’s what you need to do. Get a sufficient number of Canberrans together who are willing to put their money where their aspirations lie, and campaign for a substantial increase in rates to pay for your preferred road maintenance program. Once you get a majority of Canberrans on board to approve your hefty increase in annual bills, put it to the government of the day and chances are you’ll get your precious roads. Somehow my highly tuned community radar suggests you’ve got a snowflake’s chance in Kununurra of getting any changes to what is the best all-round compromise.

I reckon there might just be a few outback towns that forlornly dream of maybe one day in the distant future enjoying roads even half as good as the ones being complained about in this thread.

re: fuel economy – several months back I refuelled at Goulburn on the drive to Sydney airport. I got well under 5.0L/100km for the rest of the journey at 120km/h mostly on the cruise control. (2009 Astra Diesel Manual.) There’s a bit of a downhill gradient, but I get nothing like that on roads around here, average (and spot) economy being between 5.5 and 6.0. I did wonder how much was a consequence of the road surface.

re: nothing at all – I was in the newer parts of northern Canberra today and was a bit annoyed that Horse Park Drive doesn’t exist in the middle. (Is it closed or unfinished?) Interesting to see a bike lane on both sides of the road on one stretch, and a shared bike-pedestrian path along the side! Very generous.

IP

My recent favourite was the reseal of the Monaro Highway just after the Hindmarsh Drive overpass. They successfully managed to do a terrible job of chip seal on a stretch road that had only been resurfaced around 2 years ago (less?), yet skipped the section near the speed camera which was actually the part that needs repair. The icing on the cake was that following the reseal the road had roadwork signs and speed limit reduction to 60km/h, including the inclusion of an electronic roadsign/billboard advising the speed reduction added a day after the initial reseal. I naturally assumed it was for them to come back and finish with the hot mix. Nope, after around a week all the signs disappeared, yet nothing on the road changed. Well, aside from the road now being lovely chipseal..

magiccar9 said :

I looked at the road next to me. The new surface has actually worn off through to the old one. I put this down to the extreme use of this small section from every bus exiting the interchange

The same thing has occurred in the right lane of the Monaro Highway approaching the Johnson Drive roundabout, where those damn rumble stripes are. As they just chip sealed over the top of the existing ones, the chipseal has just degraded away where the original stripes were, and now that stretch reminds me of a suspension test track.

If there’s one thing Canberra seems great at, it’s resurfacing/resealing roads that are already in good condition, but continuing to ignore the ones that are more refilled pothole than actual road.

Zan said :

Our car parkes are rubbish too. At Coolamon Court Weston Creek just before Christmas they sealed both car parks in the heat. They melted and they had to lay a couple of strips of gravel down the driving areas. Today (not a hot day) the car parks are still in a melt down state. What is it going to look like in February when it gets hotter.

…and it’s fun pushing a loaded trolley over an inch of loose blue metal, with melted tar underneath!
Top notch work, once again.

I went up to Corin Forest on the weekend and notice the stretch of road where they had the rockslide last year has been resealed with bitumen that is as smooth as a baby’s bum. Not a loose stone in sight. Not knocking it but found it interesting considering it is a low traffic road and therefore a prime candidate for chipseal.

JC said :

Zeital said :

I would love to see the cost benefit of doing a road right the 1st time compared to doing a shitty job X-amount of times in terms of time spent doing/fixing etc.

…
Now unlike Sydney main roads for example our roads do not see much traffic, especially heavy vehicles which destroy the pavement.
…
Canberra is no different to anywhere else in the country in using chip seal. Though in other places, again using Sydney as an example you will only generally see it in the suburban roads as main roads generally get resurfaced as heavy vehicles in particular destroy the surface meaning a resurface is the only option.

I just don’t buy this. Following previously expressed comments that road surfacing practices in Canberra are no different to elsewhere in Australia I’ve made a point of looking at roads across the inner and middle suburbs of Sydney. And I’ve yet to see the same poor surfaces anywhere in Sydney, even on quiet suburban streets, that you see even on main roads here in Canberra. Chip seal used on roads such as Mort Street in Braddon (along with dusty and litter-strewn verges) and National Circuit in Barton is just shabby. The standard of maintenance (of roads and other elements of the public realm) are poor for a state let alone national capital.

It really strikes you when after driving from Sydney — after 270 km of well maintained motorway you hit the roar of chip seal at the ACT border for just maybe 3 or 4 km before it gets quiet again on Northbourne Avenue at Watson. And I can’t see it has anything to do with traffic levels on this stretch of road.

Our car parkes are rubbish too. At Coolamon Court Weston Creek just before Christmas they sealed both car parks in the heat. They melted and they had to lay a couple of strips of gravel down the driving areas. Today (not a hot day) the car parks are still in a melt down state. What is it going to look like in February when it gets hotter.

Zeital said :

I would love to see the cost benefit of doing a road right the 1st time compared to doing a shitty job X-amount of times in terms of time spent doing/fixing etc.

Most of our roads are done properly the first time, Glenloch interchange being an exception for some reason.

The problem of course is 10-15 years after they are built they, get this, need a thing called maintenance, yes maintenance because the surface has become semi pours, which allows water to get underneath which in turn then damages the pavement.

The options are rip it up the top layer of road, reseal and relay with hot mix it or spray a layer of bituminous material to reseal the road, which then needs an aggregate to form a road surface with grip.

Now unlike Sydney main roads for example our roads do not see much traffic, especially heavy vehicles which destroy the pavement. So the most cost effective thing to do is reseal. By all accounts reseal is 1/4 of the cost of a resurface and has to be done every 5-8 years. A resurface only needs to be done every 8-12 years but yes gives a better driving surface. So reseal, despite needing to be done twice as often end up being half the cost.

So as I say all the time it comes down to whether you are prepared to dip into your pocket to pay double for the road maintenance budget just to have a smoother road surface?

Canberra is no different to anywhere else in the country in using chip seal. Though in other places, again using Sydney as an example you will only generally see it in the suburban roads as main roads generally get resurfaced as heavy vehicles in particular destroy the surface meaning a resurface is the only option.

Around here you will see intersections are normally resurfaced, because vehicles stopping deform the road surface, meaning a resurface is the way to go.

I would love to see the cost benefit of doing a road right the 1st time compared to doing a shitty job X-amount of times in terms of time spent doing/fixing etc.

rhino said :

I think the problem lies in how they think of value. To them, they have $x million to spend and they think “we could make one road really nice or we could “reseal” 5 roads to this lower standard and we will have gotten more from our money”.

The problem with that lies in the cost to the community. Extra petrol multiplied by hundreds of thousands of trips over that road, plus broken windscreens and chipped paint repairs etc all make the cost far greater. That cost may not be on the balance sheet of the government, but the total cost to community should be considered. After all, the government is basically supposed to be a group of us citizens acting on behalf of all of us for our greater community benefit.

I completely agree. There was a study done in NZ that found the extra fuel used with coarse seal can be as much as an extra 0.9l/100km. Pretty significant I would say.

All I can say is please everyone put these thoughts in writing and write to Shane Rattenbury (PO Box 1020, Canberra, ACT 2601). It is the only way things will change.

I have written to Katy Gallagher twice and Shane Rattenbury once on this issue, suggesting that if we aren’t going to get any more asphalt/concrete roads (it’s too expensive in the short term or ‘uneconomical’ as they described it) we can at least invest in better quality seals with smaller aggeragate to improve noise and ride. I found Shane’s response to me much more constructive. Aparently they are trialing cape seal in two locations, so let’s hope things get better.

I’m not sure what’s worse, the damage to our cars or the tyre roar. It’s so loud when you enter the ACT on the federal hwy that you can’t have to turn the radio up. What a great first impression to our city.

Felix the Cat said :

I wonder how they decide which roads get chipseal and which roads gets “proper” smooth seal? A few months back they resealed part of Gungahlin Dr and also part of Flemington Rd, both near Mitchell, and did it with smooth seal.

Yeah, I give them credit for that road. It’s certainly an improvement and appears like it should last a while.

I would like to know how they decide which roads get what though.

I wonder how they decide which roads get chipseal and which roads gets “proper” smooth seal? A few months back they resealed part of Gungahlin Dr and also part of Flemington Rd, both near Mitchell, and did it with smooth seal.

I asked what is the life cycle of their chipseal approach to resealing streets? “15 years” I was told.

15 years? Is that an aspirational life cycle?

🙂

Pretty much. The most commonly quoted life span for a reseal appears to be 10 years.

HiddenDragon said :

davo101 said :

I love Canberra but I’m getting sick of this cheap, miserly and sometimes mean government.

Meanwhile the other half of Canberra thinks the government is lavish and extravagant. Funny how finding a compromise results in everyone being unhappy.

Or perhaps it’s about priorities, and giving more attention to the unglamorous day-to-day stuff which matters to most Canberrans me.

Yeap, that’s your opinion. Meanwhile other people think we should spend more money on health, education, police, sporting facilities, bike paths, tourist campaigns, childcare. While at the same time others think we should spend less on exactly the same list while giving them a cut in rates. What do you think the ACT government is spending its money on, blackjack and hookers? Half the budget goes on health and education, once you add on police, justice, emergency services, public transport, roads, drains, parks, and the accompanying administration there’s really not that much left

I agree with others that it seems like very often they do this cheap reseal on roads that were far above average condition. If it’s a nice smooth surface with no pot holes or cracks…do not touch it. Even if it was being resurfaced properly, it still wouldn’t be worthwhile if it is fine already. But to chuck rocks on it and decrease the quality of the road surface whilst spreading rocks everywhere AND wasting our money in the process…that is almost unforgivable stupidity.

Deref said :

A mate of mine who’s a keen bicycle rider says that the effort required to pedal on chipseal is significantly greater than that on a decent surface.

If that’s true, and it certainly makes sense, then the same’s true of the energy required to move a car over chipseal.

Wouldn’t it be interesting to know how much more petrol’s burnt to provide the extra energy across Canberra’s roads.

I occasionally go for a ride up the Federal Highway, and the chip-seal goes right to the NSW border. Fortunately the ACT govt didn’t chip-seal the shoulder so it’s still a reasonably smooth ride apart from all the loose gravel. However the increased difficulty in riding over the chip-seal on the off-ramp to Majura Road is astounding (pictured pre-seal: https://maps.google.com.au/?ll=-35.207638,149.193708&spn=0.003078,0.004128&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=-35.207829,149.193427&panoid=yZVmXN5ayaFFvEcH56zJkw&cbp=12,221.46,,0,-4.5). With the slight incline and me being knackered it means the difference between peddling seated and standing.

I’ve also almost come off my bike due to a dodgy chip-seal job on the Canberra Avenue bike lane near Manuka oval. I avoid riding on Antil st and Phillip ave because it’s like riding into a permanent stiff breeze because of the shitty chip-seal surface, and many of the “resealed” roads around Watson are atrocious.

davo101 said :

I love Canberra but I’m getting sick of this cheap, miserly and sometimes mean government.

Meanwhile the other half of Canberra thinks the government is lavish and extravagant. Funny how finding a compromise results in everyone being unhappy.

Or perhaps it’s about priorities, and giving more attention to the unglamorous day-to-day stuff which matters to most Canberrans.

I was talking to Katy Gallagher (then Treasurer) and Tony Gill about this issue in one Community Cabinet Meeting at Harrison.

I asked what the resealing cycle is for Canberra Streets. “20 years” I was told.

I asked what is the life cycle of their chipseal approach to resealing streets? “15 years” I was told.

Now unless something’s seriously wrong with my Grade 1 maths, that does not represent a sustainable solution…

Yeh roads are bad here, but unless the people people complain to the proper group then nothing will change and we’ll still be here in 10 years talking about the state of our dirt roads.

Antagonist said :

Another example is the recent ‘reseal’ undertaken on Pitman St, Tuggeranong (outside Southern Cross Club). You can clearly see the white road markings and arrows from before the ‘reseal’. All they did was scatter loose stones around, without bothering to stick them down with new road tar, or remove the excess stones. I would not even call it a reseal. Dodgy as hell.

Half-@rsed is an understatement. TaMS could not organise a root in a brothel with a fist-full of $50 notes.

I’m glad someone brought this up. I avoid newly surfaced roads like the plague – even if it adds considerable time to my journey.

Was sitting on Pitman St the other day (in someone else’s car, naturally). I looked at the road next to me. The new surface has actually worn off through to the old one. I put this down to the extreme use of this small section from every bus exiting the interchange. Surely this would have been a prime section for the mythical ‘hot seal’ method. It’s not a large run – probably 500-600m tops – and is hammered by heavy vehicles all day long… But alas, cheap and nasty it is.

Another example is the recent ‘reseal’ undertaken on Pitman St, Tuggeranong (outside Southern Cross Club). You can clearly see the white road markings and arrows from before the ‘reseal’. All they did was scatter loose stones around, without bothering to stick them down with new road tar, or remove the excess stones. I would not even call it a reseal. Dodgy as hell.

Half-@rsed is an understatement. TaMS could not organise a root in a brothel with a fist-full of $50 notes.

I’m going to get behind this whinge. They did this to our old street in Nth Canberra a couple of years ago and it is exactly as you described. We used to regularly walk barefoot, but that was made impossible. Kids riding bikes got a lot more risky and scooters or rollerblades impossible. And there were no footpaths in that street.

But what irritated me most was that the surface looked quite good in that street before. This was one of those small crescents where it is virtually impossible to get any speed up with the car unless you want to end up in the park or someone’s frontyard. There were no potholes, no noticeable cracks and it was nice smooth surface.

I’d rather that they reseal less than do it cheap. I very much doubt that the surface of the street would’ve deteriorated much if they would’ve waited a couple of years, due to there not being much traffic and cars driving slowly.

I think the problem lies in how they think of value. To them, they have $x million to spend and they think “we could make one road really nice or we could “reseal” 5 roads to this lower standard and we will have gotten more from our money”.

The problem with that lies in the cost to the community. Extra petrol multiplied by hundreds of thousands of trips over that road, plus broken windscreens and chipped paint repairs etc all make the cost far greater. That cost may not be on the balance sheet of the government, but the total cost to community should be considered. After all, the government is basically supposed to be a group of us citizens acting on behalf of all of us for our greater community benefit.

Makes riding a motorbike much more interesting, that’s for sure. Can’t ride in the middle due to loose gravel everywhere, can’t ride in the car wheel tracks because the car in front pelts rocks at you… fun!

All the above, and I find that they can’t even smooth the dips / holes out whilst they’re at it. Half the roads I’ve seen re-sealed were worse off as a result. I just don’t get it – are we all missing something? Extra grip for cars as a result of the rougher surface, maybe?

Gungahlin Al said :

I agree wholeheartedly, and have been saying as much here for years.
And it turns suburban back streets into cheese grates for your kids.

Go & drive around the suburbs/streets of anyother City/town in Australia and you will see that statement is incorrect.

I agree wholeheartedly, and have been saying as much here for years.
And it turns suburban back streets into cheese grates for your kids.

AAMC said :

WhaWhat next? Dirt roads?

Hope so; it will make the mundane trip to work more interesting with a winch recovery!

And Scandanavian Flicks…….

WhaWhat next? Dirt roads?

Hope so; it will make the mundane trip to work more interesting with a winch recovery!

A mate of mine who’s a keen bicycle rider says that the effort required to pedal on chipseal is significantly greater than that on a decent surface.

If that’s true, and it certainly makes sense, then the same’s true of the energy required to move a car over chipseal.

Wouldn’t it be interesting to know how much more petrol’s burnt to provide the extra energy across Canberra’s roads.

I love Canberra but I’m getting sick of this cheap, miserly and sometimes mean government.

Meanwhile the other half of Canberra thinks the government is lavish and extravagant. Funny how finding a compromise results in everyone being unhappy.