Your re-sealed roads are rubbish!

Traces_of_Nut 10 December 2013 93

Gee, it seems we Canberrans will cop anything – even the rubbish they call road re-sealing. You see (hear and feel) all the loose aggregate (stones) and you think ‘oh, this is temporary, they’ll be back to put the proper bitumen coat on’. But they don’t. So our streets now resemble something worse than you’ll find in the outback.

Our street was fine before they rushed (it took them 45min) a program of re-sealing ahead of the last election. They selected a much larger aggregate size, which means the kids can’t walk on the road without covered footwear, so less bike riding/random acts of exercise. There are still loose stones everywhere years afterward. I rang to complain and I asked what standard do they have to comply with. Answer: None (they do for newly built roads only).

A few years ago they couldn’t put the roads in the right places (think about the interchange), now they can’t pave properly. What next? Dirt roads?

I love Canberra but I’m getting sick of this cheap, miserly and sometimes mean government.


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93 Responses to Your re-sealed roads are rubbish!
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Jere13 Jere13 11:51 am 16 Jan 14

JC said :

Jere13 said :

I thought it was just water from a truck or something, but on closer inspection it’s all the tar and once again the stones are flying. I’m sorry JC, but for all the ‘economical’ arguments for spray seal, the fact is it looks crap, it damages cars, it’s dangerous for cyclists/kids on scooters and skateboards and it’s rough and noisy.

It is not going to the lowest cost per se, it is going to the most economical way to repair a road that still has a perfectly good base but needs maintenance. It has downsides, though as I keep mentioning there are plenty of well done chipsealed roads in the ACT, many I reckon people wouldn’t even realise. Two that come to mind that I have driven on in recent days is Kingsford Smith Drive through Spence and today in Turner on Watson Street. The only way with both you could even tell they were chip is a splattering of small rocks in the gutter and in the case of Watson street comparing to the non resealed carparks on the side. Of course both sections were resealed a while back now, certainly not recent.

So don’t buy the argument all seal is bad, though again will freely admit that how they are doing it piecemeal now, take for example the bit done on William Hovell to Parkes Way where there are squares of it all over the place is not good. Likewise they seem to be using a larger rock even in suburban streets, which likewise is not good.

Good to hear JC. I agree that some areas seem to have been done very well and the difference is negligable with a really good/thought out seal and asphalt/concrete. The problem is as you explained that far too many have been done to an extreemly poor standard with an aggeregate that is just far to large.

Write some letters people. As I mentioned Shane Rattenbury seems to be far more open to conultation with the community on this than Katy Gallaher (from the responses I have been given anyway). I think if we have the attitude that spray seal is here to stay, BUT that the quality of that seal is highly inconsistent we can sort out which contractor/method is not working and focus on those that are.

JC JC 6:58 am 16 Jan 14

rommeldog56 said :

JC said :

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

Whilst there may well be a lots of loose stones, the bulk of the stones are not loose.

In some ways chip seal is more safer, grip in wet whether for one, and visibility in wet whether at night. End of the day every solution has pluses and minuses. Now you don’t see cars skidding off the road every day, despite over 80% of ACT (and probably the whole countries) roads being done with chipseal do you?

Safer ???

So, that randomly spread and a variable size rubble covered in sticky, half melted tar has a safer grip than, say, hotmix. Geeezzzz, I think not. Its not about cars “skidding off the road everyday” ’cause of the crap resurfacing jobs on ACT roads, but handling is, IMHO opinion, adversely and unnecessilarly affected.

It’s not about chipseal per sae – I’ve driven on some pretty good quality chipsealed roads Interstate – it’s about the poor quality of said chipseal being done now in Canberra. It must be at the direction of the ACT Government ’cause I wouldn’t think any self respecting, competent contractor would produce such poor quality road resurfacing as seen in the ACT, if they had an option. I would imagine it It would be too damaging commercially (imagine a contractor giving their road resurfacing handiwork in the ACT as a reference when lodging a tender response in other States !).

I did say in the wet. Reason being nice flat hotmix, when it rains can tend to get glassy, chip the water doesn’t get glassy due to the rocks. Same to with visability, some of the hotmix roads get so glassy, again in the wet that you cannot see in the dark, not an issue on chip.

As for your handling if the handling was so bad as a result you would see the results of poor handling which is accidents. Now yes when they first lay the shit, and yes I do agree it is shit maybe, but that is one of the reasons they reduce the speed limit for the first few days, not that many seem to notice or care.

Now yes will also agree they way they are doing it now is shit and it must be at the governments direction. In the past they would do whole sections of roads, but now they do still do some complete sections, but they also do a lot of patch work, such as what they have done at Glenloch where William Hovell becomes Parkes Way and the size of the rock seems to be much larger too. As mentioned before there are heaps of roads in Canberra that have chip seal that I bet many don’t even realise are chipseal. Done a few years back of course.

rommeldog56 rommeldog56 11:06 pm 15 Jan 14

JC said :

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

Whilst there may well be a lots of loose stones, the bulk of the stones are not loose.

In some ways chip seal is more safer, grip in wet whether for one, and visibility in wet whether at night. End of the day every solution has pluses and minuses. Now you don’t see cars skidding off the road every day, despite over 80% of ACT (and probably the whole countries) roads being done with chipseal do you?

Safer ??? So, that randomly spread and a variable size rubble covered in sticky, half melted tar has a safer grip than, say, hotmix. Geeezzzz, I think not. Its not about cars “skidding off the road everyday” ’cause of the crap resurfacing jobs on ACT roads, but handling is, IMHO opinion, adversely and unnecessilarly affected.

It’s not about chipseal per sae – I’ve driven on some pretty good quality chipsealed roads Interstate – it’s about the poor quality of said chipseal being done now in Canberra. It must be at the direction of the ACT Government ’cause I wouldn’t think any self respecting, competent contractor would produce such poor quality road resurfacing as seen in the ACT, if they had an option. I would imagine it It would be too damaging commercially (imagine a contractor giving their road resurfacing handiwork in the ACT as a reference when lodging a tender response in other States !).

gooterz gooterz 10:28 pm 15 Jan 14

Queen_of_the_Bun said :

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

So hopefully no kids run out or ride in front of car unexpectedly on a new chip sealed road because the car won’t stop no matter how hard you push the brake pedal.

How fast are you driving? If you can’t stop your car, you should not be on the road, chip sealed or bitumen.

I think he was making the point that the stopping distance is increased. More likely to hit someone who just jumps out on the road. Mainly because you wont have a hope of turning on chipseal. The wheels will point elsewhere but the car will just keep going.

Worse yet is when it rains and you have cruise control on a we chipseal. Cruise will want to keep going if you start skidding it’ll accelerate.

gooterz gooterz 10:19 pm 15 Jan 14

JC said :

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

Whilst there may well be a lots of loose stones, the bulk of the stones are not loose.

In some ways chip seal is more safer, grip in wet whether for one, and visibility in wet whether at night. End of the day every solution has pluses and minuses. Now you don’t see cars skidding off the road every day, despite over 80% of ACT (and probably the whole countries) roads being done with chipseal do you?

Wait till it starts raining more in winter and you’ll see the surface lift right off.

Someone should take pictures of pitman street before they do it. Its a complete joke.

JC JC 9:45 pm 15 Jan 14

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

Whilst there may well be a lots of loose stones, the bulk of the stones are not loose.

In some ways chip seal is more safer, grip in wet whether for one, and visibility in wet whether at night. End of the day every solution has pluses and minuses. Now you don’t see cars skidding off the road every day, despite over 80% of ACT (and probably the whole countries) roads being done with chipseal do you?

Queen_of_the_Bun Queen_of_the_Bun 9:24 pm 15 Jan 14

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

So hopefully no kids run out or ride in front of car unexpectedly on a new chip sealed road because the car won’t stop no matter how hard you push the brake pedal.

How fast are you driving? If you can’t stop your car, you should not be on the road, chip sealed or bitumen.

Pork Hunt Pork Hunt 8:33 pm 15 Jan 14

gazket said :

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

So hopefully no kids run out or ride in front of car unexpectedly on a new chip sealed road because the car won’t stop no matter how hard you push the brake pedal.

Have you never heard of a concept called “the coefficient of friction”? Even if the tyres and the road itself were made of Teflon (friction properties similar to wet ice on wet ice) the car would eventually come to a halt.

Madam Cholet Madam Cholet 7:52 pm 15 Jan 14

Just as an aside on roads, did anyone notice the frightful noise of melting tarmac under car wheels today? Took a while to work out that it was not a problem with my or anyone else’s car.

JC JC 5:22 pm 15 Jan 14

Jere13 said :

I thought it was just water from a truck or something, but on closer inspection it’s all the tar and once again the stones are flying. I’m sorry JC, but for all the ‘economical’ arguments for spray seal, the fact is it looks crap, it damages cars, it’s dangerous for cyclists/kids on scooters and skateboards and it’s rough and noisy.

PS I keep going back to this analogy. You have a timber deck, it is now time for maintenance. Do you replace all the timber with new, which will no doubt give a better result, or do you repair parts that need repairing and repaint? The answer is it depends upon how much rot there is, but I am willing to be that if the rot was minimal everyone here would repair and repaint, rather than replace. In fact did this just recently with my own deck.

So if the underlying road surface is still fine and the only problem is small patches need repair and the rest can be resealed why would you replace it?

JC JC 5:18 pm 15 Jan 14

Jere13 said :

I thought it was just water from a truck or something, but on closer inspection it’s all the tar and once again the stones are flying. I’m sorry JC, but for all the ‘economical’ arguments for spray seal, the fact is it looks crap, it damages cars, it’s dangerous for cyclists/kids on scooters and skateboards and it’s rough and noisy.

It is not going to the lowest cost per se, it is going to the most economical way to repair a road that still has a perfectly good base but needs maintenance. It has downsides, though as I keep mentioning there are plenty of well done chipsealed roads in the ACT, many I reckon people wouldn’t even realise. Two that come to mind that I have driven on in recent days is Kingsford Smith Drive through Spence and today in Turner on Watson Street. The only way with both you could even tell they were chip is a splattering of small rocks in the gutter and in the case of Watson street comparing to the non resealed carparks on the side. Of course both sections were resealed a while back now, certainly not recent.

So don’t buy the argument all seal is bad, though again will freely admit that how they are doing it piecemeal now, take for example the bit done on William Hovell to Parkes Way where there are squares of it all over the place is not good. Likewise they seem to be using a larger rock even in suburban streets, which likewise is not good.

gazket gazket 4:27 pm 15 Jan 14

I think there is a safety issue as well with chip seal. ABS brakes don’t work to well on gravel especially when it’s loose.

So hopefully no kids run out or ride in front of car unexpectedly on a new chip sealed road because the car won’t stop no matter how hard you push the brake pedal.

rommeldog56 rommeldog56 3:53 pm 15 Jan 14

Antagonist said :

JC said :

Antagonist said :

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

With no context of time that is right. But throw in some context, yes they leave the rocks for a day or two before sweeping to help them bed in, aided by vehicles driving over them. This is accompanied by a reduced speed limit to minimise rock throw back, not that many do the limit though.

Then they start doing some light sweeps over the course of a week or so to remove the excess, but no heavy enough to bring up any bedded down stones.

Pitman St, Tuggeranong outside the Southern Cross Club. No sweeps done at all – zip, zilch, zero, nuffin, nada, niente. Easily the worst ‘reseal/chipseal’ I have ever seen to boot. It needed redoing almost immediately.

Yep. That bit of road resealing in Pitman street is totally unacceptable and quite frankly, a total disgrace.

Where are the ACT Governments contract management people ? Haven’t they got eyes ??? Can not Katy Gallagher, Andrew Barr and Shane Rattenbury just drive on these roads to see what their crap resealling is doing to our roads ??? No one in their right minds can say that the quality is acceptable. If they are going to tripple our Annual Rates, then at least they can find a better gravel/tar mix for road resurfacing.

And add the stupid speed humps on Pitman Street onto that, sheezzzzzz.

Jere13 Jere13 3:31 pm 15 Jan 14

460cixy said :

Yes yet again the roads in Philip are melting and running away good work tams

And right where all the car dealerships are. It must be driving them spare.

Antagonist Antagonist 2:23 pm 15 Jan 14

JC said :

Antagonist said :

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

With no context of time that is right. But throw in some context, yes they leave the rocks for a day or two before sweeping to help them bed in, aided by vehicles driving over them. This is accompanied by a reduced speed limit to minimise rock throw back, not that many do the limit though.

Then they start doing some light sweeps over the course of a week or so to remove the excess, but no heavy enough to bring up any bedded down stones.

Pitman St, Tuggeranong outside the Southern Cross Club. No sweeps done at all – zip, zilch, zero, nuffin, nada, niente. Easily the worst ‘reseal/chipseal’ I have ever seen to boot. It needed redoing almost immediately.

460cixy 460cixy 12:35 pm 15 Jan 14

Yes yet again the roads in Philip are melting and running away good work tams

Jere13 Jere13 12:08 pm 15 Jan 14

JC said :

Jere13 said :

So it sounds like the core issue is that asphalt is too expensive given the lack of population to support it.

No that is not the issue. The issue is our roads do not take the same pounding as elsewhere, so when the time comes to reseal them the most cost effective manner is chipseal. Roads that do take a heavier pounding (many main roads in Sydney for example) need more than a reseal so the higher cost hot mix is the only real solution.

The latter is what happens here with intersections, you may notice that few are chip sealed, the reason being vehicles stopping causes damage that needs to be repaired, the repair needs to be hotmix.

Gheeze, has anyone seen the tar seeping through the new seal on Power street in Mawson and the new seal around Phillip in the heat?

I thought it was just water from a truck or something, but on closer inspection it’s all the tar and once again the stones are flying. I’m sorry JC, but for all the ‘economical’ arguments for spray seal, the fact is it looks crap, it damages cars, it’s dangerous for cyclists/kids on scooters and skateboards and it’s rough and noisy. If all our infrastructure is going to go for the lowest cost option let’s not stop there, let’s just go for dirt roads, forget sewage/water infrastructure and get people to install tanks and go back to putting power/phone lines on poles. Let’s really go backwards in the name of cost cutting.

So sick of discovering new stone chips and trying to scub off tar around the wheels of our car.

JC JC 10:15 am 10 Jan 14

Jere13 said :

So it sounds like the core issue is that asphalt is too expensive given the lack of population to support it.

No that is not the issue. The issue is our roads do not take the same pounding as elsewhere, so when the time comes to reseal them the most cost effective manner is chipseal. Roads that do take a heavier pounding (many main roads in Sydney for example) need more than a reseal so the higher cost hot mix is the only real solution.

The latter is what happens here with intersections, you may notice that few are chip sealed, the reason being vehicles stopping causes damage that needs to be repaired, the repair needs to be hotmix.

JC JC 10:08 am 10 Jan 14

Antagonist said :

According to TaMS, leaving the loose stones on the road is part of the reseal/rechip process. The weight of the cars helps the stones do adhere to the new surface. True story!

With no context of time that is right. But throw in some context, yes they leave the rocks for a day or two before sweeping to help them bed in, aided by vehicles driving over them. This is accompanied by a reduced speed limit to minimise rock throw back, not that many do the limit though.

Then they start doing some light sweeps over the course of a week or so to remove the excess, but no heavy enough to bring up any bedded down stones.

Jere13 Jere13 9:48 am 10 Jan 14

JC said :

Jere13 said :

So it appears that it is used in Wollongong but it is certainly less prevalent from my experience. In many ways I would rather roads with significant rutting than driving through the hailstorm of stones we have been putting up with after new seal is laid (although I note that the sweeping has been improving).

So with everything taken into account hotmix is twice as expensive, but everyone would agree that it is hugely superior and there was once a buget for it when it was origionally put down. Personally I would have no problem paying more in my rates/rego to fund better infrastructure but I also take the point that this is a minority view. Is the answer therefore to invest in better quality seals (there seems to be many different types) that may be slightly more expensive but provide more amenity?

Or is it a case of looking at more cost effective ways of producing hotmix? (I’m asking, I don’t know the answer to this).

I just can’t beleive that the current levels of Tyre roar we are getting from the current seal is acceptable for the capital of a developed nation.

400 roads in 5 years (source the document I linked to above). That works out to be 80 per year. Seems to be more than the yearly ACT schedule.

And yes even I will agree that hotmix is far superior road surface, much better to drive on, much quieter etc, the core issue is on of cost. We don’t have endless rivers of money, so chip is the sensible alternative. Whilst you may well be willing to pay extra, I for one am willing to put up with chip because it is the more sensible thing to do.

You are also right there are different grades, take for example many of the suburban streets in Canberra. I reckon many would drive on them not even knowing they are chip. Get onto the main suburban streets and the rock size increases, and goes up again on main arterial roads. Will also agree that the Federal Highway on the ACT side was not done well and is very noisy, but it has been matched by many stretched of similar chip on the NSW side and on the Hume, as listed above. Not to mention the concrete roads which themselves are not entirely quiet either.

PS this coming from someone who had to recently get a new windscreen because of rock damage from new chip seal. Now before we start blaming the ACT government, this was on the Hay plain and was caused by a stupid truck driver overtaking me in the temporary 60km/h zone as the rocks had only just been laid.

Yeah, and this is precisely the problem. It’s all well and good to put up 60km signs, but how often will some idiot in a old, banged up ute come past at 80km will little regard for anyone that actually cares about their cars.

So it sounds like the core issue is that asphalt is too expensive given the lack of population to support it. Chipseal has been done very poorly in the past but it is improving. Perhaps if more care and effort was taken to improve the ride/noise effects of chipseal but improving practice and methods there is a half way point here.I’m glad to hear that the stuff used on the ACT side of the federal hwy is not normal as that is honestly so noisy in our car it’s difficult to talk to the person next to you.

There is one street with chipseal I can think of in Wollongong that was recently done with chipseal and they seem to have used a layer of very fine aggerate on the final surface and I will agree, there is not a lot of difference between that and asphalt. I just haven’t seen that sort of quality seal used in the ACT yet. Some of the aggeregate is pushing the size of bluemetal.

https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=cordeaux+heights&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&ei=HCTPUpHHEIfKkgWFooGwDw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg

Here’s hoping the quality improves. I’d like to see more nice cars on the road and at the moment, you’d have to be crazy to buy a high end sports car in this territory with roads like he have. We have a sedan at the moment and we’re thinking of a 4wd for the next car based purely on mitigating the noise effects from the crappy roads.

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