Overheard at the GetUp Climate Torch Relay finale, Sunday 12 October

SamTSeppo said :

WildWoila, happy to! Basically, since Diamond first gathered his data back in the mid-90s a series of scientists from Australia, New Zealand and the US have started doing extensive research on Easter Island that shows that Diamond’s narrative of “ecocide” turns out to be a case of severe data cherry-picking.

This link offers a good layman’s description of what the new data has to say in regard to Diamond’s work:
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/issue.aspx?id=1002&y=2006&no=5&content=true&page=5&css=print

Thanks for that – very interesting!

Overheard said :

But WW, at some point when I get two minutes to rub together I WILL offset my carbon emissions, because I do HAVE to fly the big winged bird for work (1) and work (2) and work (3), sometimes for work (4) and private and personal reasons (5-27).

Well, when you do get around to offsetting, you’ll want to check out Carbon Offset Watch:
http://www.carbonoffsetwatch.org.au/

But in my view, offsets are very much a last resort thing.

WildWoila, happy to! Basically, since Diamond first gathered his data back in the mid-90s a series of scientists from Australia, New Zealand and the US have started doing extensive research on Easter Island that shows that Diamond’s narrative of “ecocide” turns out to be a case of severe data cherry-picking.

This link offers a good layman’s description of what the new data has to say in regard to Diamond’s work:
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/issue.aspx?id=1002&y=2006&no=5&content=true&page=5&css=print

You might not be able to access it, however (sorry! though if you can log in from a computer at UC or ANU you should be golden). To begin with, it appears that deforestation was only partially a human-caused phenomenon. Evidence of rat gnawing can found on nearly every prehistoric seed excavated for the endemic (and extinct) tree species. Certainly, they’d been transported with humans, but it’s highly unlikely that they were a deliberate introduction. The Pacific rat is simply too small to be of much use for a food source — think of an animal more the size of a mouse, as opposed to the European-sized rats you’re used to.

Deforestation still happened, but it was much more rapid than Diamond shows. Pollen data, in particular, show that while humans and rats destroyed the native forests rapidly, moai (that’s the big stone head things) production continued well afterwards. Loss of the forest didn’t present quite the same problem for human lifestyle on Rapa Nui as did the arrival of Europeans and their diseases, or natural climate fluctuations.

Further data opposed to Diamond’s ecocide hypothesis comes in the form of climate change records from throughout the Pacific that demonstrate that some significant climate shifts occurred between 900 and 1600 AD — both warming and cooling events — that could have played roles in shaping societies throughout the Pacific. In particular, we’re looking at warming weather and decreased rainfall; a prime recipe for plant death.

In a nutshell, Diamond oversimplifies the problems being faced by the prehistoric Easter Islanders and in the end really looks like he was trying to shoehorn the story into a Parable For Modern Times. It’s not that Diamond’s work is useless — it’s good to see him bringing prehistory to large audiences — but all the same, the story is still interesting when it’s not a morality play.

“But WW, at some point when I get two minutes to rub together I WILL offset my carbon emissions, because I do HAVE to fly the big winged bird for work (1) and work (2) and work (3), sometimes for work (4) and private and personal reasons (5-27).”

Sorry that should read ‘I do HAVE to ~~ for work (etc.) and I do HAVE to and/or CHOOSE to for private and personal reasons.

Granny, at the risk of being a five post nut bad I’ll just slip in here that Glenys the Menys did not have a cape on from memory so you might like to take that up with her.

Oh, and well played at trivia again last night. Hope to see you for the trifecta next week.

WildWoila said :

Overheard said :

AND FINALLY, can I just say that having flown out of or landed in Canberra roughly 200 times, there is ALWAYS a new perspective or view I get of this town that’s been my home for the last 42 years (89.5% thereof) and I love it dearly and in oh so many ways.

If you’re serious about changing your ways, then I suggest you reconsider your flying habit. Great, you’ve got a wind-up torch. That would save about a billionth of the CO2 that your flying is responsible for. Change the big stuff first, not the small fry! And job-related or not, in the end it’s your decision to be on that plane.

I’m serious about many things, WW, including putting food in my mouth every day and providing for my kiddies through the Child Support Agency and in other ways.

That dictates that I have a four-day a week job and when they say ‘Thou shalt travel’* then I doth travel. *Skid, deep breath and yank them out of yo’ crack.

And then sometimes I choose to fly or drive or whatever for a thousand different reasons, some of them paid, some of them unpaid, some of them for another work purpose, some for some noble cause, some for pleasure, etc. etc.

(Just for the record, I walked from Campbell to Federation Mall then to the pub then to Campbell on Sunday.)

When I travel for the company, I am told ‘Thou shalt not offset they carbon on the company’s purse strings’.

But WW, at some point when I get two minutes to rub together I WILL offset my carbon emissions, because I do HAVE to fly the big winged bird for work (1) and work (2) and work (3), sometimes for work (4) and private and personal reasons (5-27).

But I’ll make reparation for that.

And yes, it’s my choice to have my job, but it’s actually very well-paid and the major recipient of the benefit of that is my two children. And they come first every farnarkling time.

Happy? (That was a rhetorical question…)

Skidbladnir said :

Good heavens, “Brethren and sistren”?
Where (or when) did you go to school, Overheard? Thats old-school English, which was dead in English by the time of Shakespeare…

Since Shakespeare, brethren is a group of either men or women, but modern usage English is brethren being used for religious groups, with fraternity for men or mixed social or close groups and sorority for similar groups of only women…

Reading that phrase turned my mental image of you from harmless trivia announcer into something roughly like Catweazle…

But, hooray for event coverage!

Whoa, Skid. Time to un-bunch those panties!

I know we had a brief chat in the ABN that night, but man, if you haven’t read enough of my stuff to think that I always speak or type literally (esp. when it comes to archaic and/or arcane language), you don’t know me much at all!

RuffnReady said :

johnboy said :

RuffnReady said :

BTW, this stuff is my career and my life, and I’ve cut my footprint in half in 2 years through behaviour change alone. It CAN be done, you just need to think a little differently and ACT ON IT.

And you want widespread adoption of that you need to create financial incentives for it.

I favour price indicators.

Why does everything have to include a bribe? You may be right, but that’s a sad comment on what we’ve become, no? The thought of short-changing our grandchildren should be enough to initiate the change process – as the Native Americans say, we do not own the land, we are stewards of the land for those who come after us.

Agree, with one qualification. There are some who may plan never to have grand-children or children for that matter, and maybe their motivations are a bit more generally altruistic than what their offspring may have to endure. (And yes, I realise it’s possible you intended ‘grandchildren’ to be a more inclusive term than direct lineage.)

Overheard said :

Come for the bright orange capes, stay for the behavioural change opportunities.

Granny, Rhys’s mum was there and we had a great old chat about life the universe and contemplating marriage for the second time! (Which I was a couple of years ago.)

Please tell me she was wearing a bright orange cape!

*hehehe*

Oh, and I’m all for sistren, only I’d never heard of it. I shall use it all the time now however!!

*chuckle*

SamTSeppo said :

But just like the incorrect beliefs about Easter Island and environmental collapse, it makes for a great parable that seems applicable to modern-day life, so it lives on.

Please illuminate me – what’s incorrect about the Easter Island environmental collapse theory? I quite enjoyed Jared Diamond’s book on the matter, but can’t say I’ve read any further.

Overheard said :

AND FINALLY, can I just say that having flown out of or landed in Canberra roughly 200 times, there is ALWAYS a new perspective or view I get of this town that’s been my home for the last 42 years (89.5% thereof) and I love it dearly and in oh so many ways.

If you’re serious about changing your ways, then I suggest you reconsider your flying habit. Great, you’ve got a wind-up torch. That would save about a billionth of the CO2 that your flying is responsible for. Change the big stuff first, not the small fry! And job-related or not, in the end it’s your decision to be on that plane.

Good heavens, “Brethren and sistren”?
Where (or when) did you go to school, Overheard? Thats old-school English, which was dead in English by the time of Shakespeare…

Since Shakespeare, brethren is a group of either men or women, but modern usage English is brethren being used for religious groups, with fraternity for men or mixed social or close groups and sorority for similar groups of only women…

Reading that phrase turned my mental image of you from harmless trivia announcer into something roughly like Catweazle…

But, hooray for event coverage!

Why does everything have to include a bribe? You may be right, but that’s a sad comment on what we’ve become, no? The thought of short-changing our grandchildren should be enough to initiate the change process – as the Native Americans say, we do not own the land, we are stewards of the land for those who come after us.

I think it’s entirely possible that humans have triggered a climate change process over the course of 200+ years of industrial revolution, but I’m not convinced that the actions of a few countries can make any real difference right now. Face it: Australia has just over 20 million people. Short of completely shutting off industry and all climate change -related processes, any changes made here will be completely counteracted by other countries. Rather than making changes at home, you’d do better to spend your time trying to lobby for other places to change. California alone has 36 million people — trust me when I say that for every bit of effort made in Canberra, its effects will more than be swallowed up and abused by Sacramento. Spearheading change is good, but don’t shoot yourself in the foot if others aren’t going to follow suit.

Finally, I think you’re mis-quoting Native Americans a bit. They lived in transformed landscapes and human-affected land just as much as us, but were limited by their technologies in the changes they could effect. The Native Americans as stewards of the land view was born primarily of the 1970s nascent environmental movement and radicals who appropriated Native American culture for their own ends, without concern for data or facts. But just like the incorrect beliefs about Easter Island and environmental collapse, it makes for a great parable that seems applicable to modern-day life, so it lives on.

johnboy said :

RuffnReady said :

BTW, this stuff is my career and my life, and I’ve cut my footprint in half in 2 years through behaviour change alone. It CAN be done, you just need to think a little differently and ACT ON IT.

And you want widespread adoption of that you need to create financial incentives for it.

I favour price indicators.

Why does everything have to include a bribe? You may be right, but that’s a sad comment on what we’ve become, no? The thought of short-changing our grandchildren should be enough to initiate the change process – as the Native Americans say, we do not own the land, we are stewards of the land for those who come after us.

Actually, I think it comes down to education from a young age about the impact of all consumption. Very few people today make the link between their consumption and its effects eg. flick a switch=pulling coal out of the ground.

It also comes down to real political will to change, and leadership, which just isn’t there – as we saw with the carbon trading backflip, economy will always trump environment in the current system. We need an entire paradigm change, a new way of viewing our lives.

Education–>Awareness–>Action

It’s a pity humans only respond to crisis and not warnings of impending crisis. 🙁

I made that last comment because I’m off to work with (not for) the kangaroo network, so I thought I’d best be clear that all of the above comments are from ‘Overheard’ the private citizen and principle of ‘Overheard Productions’.

Four Nut Post Bag!!!!

Enjoy this lovely rain.

And I’ll finish with this, he says, as he sits in a not too shabby little bar airside at Sydney, having written the above comment on the muggle-side at Canberra airport. I work in travel policy and delivery (or did until 14 days ago, but like the woman who left the pants factory, I still like to keep my hand in).

I’ve just gotten off a plane that’s one of what we euphemistically refer to as a ‘smaller airline’. They don’t put out a ‘complimentary’ (= included in your ticket price) meal service. They don’t distribute scores of little packets and non-recylcable bits of plastic and tat. They do offer these if you want to purchase them. Today there was too much turbulence. I LOVE turbulence — reminds you you’re alive and you’re a visitor in that environment, defying the laws of gravity and therefore subject to its terms and conditions — a bit like scuba-diving (which I don’t do) ane encountering a hostile shark or squid or angry jellyfish.

Anyhoo, too much turbulence = no trolley service which they apologised for while I cheered. We were in the air for 23 minutes; I’ve had bus rides that go for longer than that. Just maybe factor that into your travel decision, and while you CAN say no to trolley service on other airlines, just have a look around next time and look at what others are consuming, throwing away, etc.

(Though the plastic cutlery on the kangaroo network does make excellent picnic-ware.)

AND FINALLY, can I just say that having flown out of or landed in Canberra roughly 200 times, there is ALWAYS a new perspective or view I get of this town that’s been my home for the last 42 years (89.5% thereof) and I love it dearly and in oh so many ways.

For the record, I’m not clocking on for the company for another 16 minutes, but it’s time to start heading in that direction.

RuffnReady said :

Nice work, Overheard.

Can I just say that I think all these arganisation make a mistake by concentrating on climate change alone… the issue is long-term sustainability, and that incorporates: climate change,
non-renewable resource depletion (ie. fossil fuels, minerals),
renewable resource destruction (ie. fisheries, soils, water resources),
pollution (of air, water and land),
overpopulation.

Now had a chance to digest some more information about GetUp courtesy of a brochure I picked up on the day: ‘People’s agenda for the new Parliament’ from late last year. (Sounds a bit Cultural Revolution, but I’m here to tell you it’s an absolutely cracking read.)

Again, I am NOT currently a member of GetUp.

Very briefly, this document comes from a poll of 32,500 people on Tuesday 11 December 2007 (so you can do your own maths about the timing and relevance etc.)

To quote (and my comments are in square brackets):

“Three issues stood out as the most important priorities for the Parliament:

1. Becoming environmentally sustainable and combating climate change. [Note the order.]
2. Making high-quality primary, secondary, and tertiary public education accessible to all Australians.
3. Respecting the rights and improving the living standards of Indigenous Australians.’

and the next seven of the top ten issues (as voted by the populace) are about:

4. health care
5. poverty and the wealth gap
6. withdrawal of troops from Iraq
7. human rights and civil liberties
8. community infrastructure and planning
9. workers’ rights
10. democracy

I’m not finding much not to like.

On point 3, they say, in part, ‘We want an official apology to the Stolen Generation that begins a comprehensive plan for true reconciliation.’ (Again, dated Dec 2007.)

I’ll leave all of that sit and invite you to look at http://www.getup.org.au for more information.

Yes, no, maybe, and all of the above. If it gets numpties like me who may not have given the subject too much consideration before at least an ‘in’ to some of these issues, then that can’t be a bad thing.

Come for the bright orange capes, stay for the behavioural change opportunities.

Granny, Rhys’s mum was there and we had a great old chat about life the universe and contemplating marriage for the second time! (Which I was a couple of years ago.)

Btw, johnboy deserves a purple heart for dealing with my woeful photo-sizing and web-logging or cataloguing or whatever the hip term is. Sorry if the slideshow is a bit plump and sluggish — it’s just aping its owner.

I grew up with Rhys. I haven’t seen him for nearly a decade, but I still sometimes pop around to say g’day to his mum. I’m glad it was such a good day.

: )

RuffnReady said :

BTW, this stuff is my career and my life, and I’ve cut my footprint in half in 2 years through behaviour change alone. It CAN be done, you just need to think a little differently and ACT ON IT.

And you want widespread adoption of that you need to create financial incentives for it.

I favour price indicators.

Nice work, Overheard.

Can I just say that I think all these arganisation make a mistake by concentrating on climate change alone… the issue is long-term sustainability, and that incorporates: climate change,
non-renewable resource depletion (ie. fossil fuels, minerals),
renewable resource destruction (ie. fisheries, soils, water resources),
pollution (of air, water and land),
overpopulation.

I say this because even if you don’t believe that climate change is occuring, it’s hard to argue with peak oil, toxic pollution, the disappearance of fisheries, etc etc.

Anyway, good job all.

BTW, this stuff is my career and my life, and I’ve cut my footprint in half in 2 years through behaviour change alone. It CAN be done, you just need to think a little differently and ACT ON IT.

*sees pictures of himself, swears ‘campaign diet’ will be replaced by salad-only diet from Oct 19*

It was nice to meet you Overheard. And you were the one ‘biggin it up for RA’, not me!