Gungahlin traffic woes

A friend of mine just called me and said it took an hour and fifteen minutes to go from forde to Brindabella park this morning with traffic bumper to bumper. That sounds like a nightmare.

BenjaminRose1991 said :

Here are my suggestions on improving the traffic flow in and out of Gungahlin and between Gungahlin and Belconnen. While putting this topic back on topic.

I put these in the “Should’ve been done twenty years ago” category.

* Duplicate Gundaroo Drive and William Slim Drive.
* Duplicate Horse Park Drive from Gundaroo Drive towards the Majura Parkway (formerly Majura Rd)

Convert these roundabouts and intersections to a “Seagull Intersection” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_intersection

Local examples in Wiki page.

* Gungahlin Drive intersections with Sandford St, Well Station Dr, and Kosciuszko Ave (southern intersection)
* Horse Park Drive intersections with Anthony Rolfe Ave, Mapleton Ave, and Well Station Dr.
* William Slim Dr intersections with Chuculba Cres, Owen Dixon Dr, and Baldwin Dr.

Add merging lanes (ending in “form one lane”) after intersections heading southbound on Gungahlin Drive coming out from Well Station Dr and Sandford St intersections.

A huge and expensive task but it would PERMANENTLY improve flows and reduce the impact of the tram line on Gungahlin traffic.

Hopefully my extensive suggestions make sense 😐

Sounds a lot like all the “Solutions” tried everywhere else for the last 100+ years:

1) Build more roads at huge expense so people can turn them into parking lots.

2) Build some more at even greater expense.

3) When that doesn’t work, build even more

4) To pretend they don’t really exist despite you can still see, hear and smell them, try and hide them behind 100s of kilometres of 3 – 5m high concrete walls

5) Ignore that each road fills up the next and ultimately the parking lots at the end of the line

6) Ignore that you are using over a tone of metal and a lot of fuel to move usually only one person, every now and then.

Problem solved.

7) No its not. See 3)

Whoa! people………..Haven’t you all seen or heard the ads? Drive or ride – same rights, same responsibilities? Oh please. If the moron on his bike making car noises wasn’t enough to make you sick then a small amount of logical thought regarding the assertion Drive or ride – same rights, same responsibilities would.

Let me explain. To drive a motor vehicle lawfully on the road you are required to pass a driving skills and knowledge test, eyesight test, pay your registration and third party insurance, maintain your motor vehicle to comply with the legislated standards, carry your driver licence, display registraiton plates on your vehicle…………….the list could go on.

To ride a bicycle on public roads you are required to do well……………nothing, pay nothing, not be identifiable, not required to carry any identification,………………..the list could go on.

So, Same rights, same responsibilities? I think not.

Here are my suggestions on improving the traffic flow in and out of Gungahlin and between Gungahlin and Belconnen. While putting this topic back on topic.

I put these in the “Should’ve been done twenty years ago” category.

* Duplicate Gundaroo Drive and William Slim Drive.
* Duplicate Horse Park Drive from Gundaroo Drive towards the Majura Parkway (formerly Majura Rd)

Convert these roundabouts and intersections to a “Seagull Intersection” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagull_intersection Local examples in Wiki page.

* Gungahlin Drive intersections with Sandford St, Well Station Dr, and Kosciuszko Ave (southern intersection)
* Horse Park Drive intersections with Anthony Rolfe Ave, Mapleton Ave, and Well Station Dr.
* William Slim Dr intersections with Chuculba Cres, Owen Dixon Dr, and Baldwin Dr.

Add merging lanes (ending in “form one lane”) after intersections heading southbound on Gungahlin Drive coming out from Well Station Dr and Sandford St intersections.

A huge and expensive task but it would PERMANENTLY improve flows and reduce the impact of the tram line on Gungahlin traffic.

Hopefully my extensive suggestions make sense 😐

BlowMeDown said :

Motor vehicle drivers derive little to no, and even negative, benefit from sharing the roads with cyclists. Cyclists are not required to be licensed or even competent, do not need to have their bicycles registered as road-worthy, or to be insured for damage to either themselves or others.

.

If all the cyclists organised a Drive to Work day, every motorist out there would notice the traffic going slower than usual. For every bike on the road it’s one less car on the road in front of you holding you up at the lights.

dungfungus said :

Care to comment why the cyclists use the ambulance/ED services disproportionately more that motorists?

C’mon – we all know the answer. Canberra drivers can’t frigging drive and run over them. That’s why. How can a driver come up on the right hand side of a cyclist draw level, then left hook them and say SMIDSY… happens every day of the week in this town. Even in broad daylight…

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

A lot more people use cars as their main means of travel so of course more will die on the road.

How does that support your original assertion that “cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more than motorists are”?

Add the word “disproportionately” which I used and you have answered your own question.

Well, cmon, show us the stats?

dungfungus said :

Care to comment why the cyclists use the ambulance/ED services disproportionately more that motorists?

Eddie, I’ll lock in Cars and Gravity please

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

A lot more people use cars as their main means of travel so of course more will die on the road.

How does that support your original assertion that “cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more than motorists are”?

Add the word “disproportionately” which I used and you have answered your own question.

dungfungus said :

A lot more people use cars as their main means of travel so of course more will die on the road.

How does that support your original assertion that “cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more than motorists are”?

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

No, cyclists who aren’t also drivers don’t pay the annual $16.60, but then they don’t wear and damage the roads like cars or trucks while still contributing for construction and upkeep through tax. And they generally don’t leave a path of destruction, require fire units to attend or extensive mop up, or require emergency equipment like the Jaws of Life to extricate them from their bicycle.
As for ambulances, if someone, anyone, uses an ambulance they are charged for it. And you’ll have to stump up some evidence for the assertion that cyclists use ambulances more than motorists, given that, in NSW at any rate, motorists use hearses a lot more than cyclists, by a factor of at least 10. I doubt that figures are reversed when it comes to ambulances.

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/dynamic/nsw-road-toll-daily.pdf

A lot more people use cars as their main means of travel so of course more will die on the road.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

Maya123 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

Maya123, there is a reason first home buyers don’t buy in Narrabundah or anywhere close to the city. It is approximately $300,000+. That’s the difference in price between a 3 bedroom house in the burbs and one in the old leaf-lined streets of central Canberra. If money grew on trees then yes your idea would be viable but availability is also another factor. There are only six 3 bedroom houses for sale presently in your neighborhood as opposed to sixteen in a selected western Belconnen suburb. Sure, apartments might be an alternative but priced accordingly at 3x what a bedroom is worth on the outskirts too.
If you want the land next door to your house developed into a multistory dwelling, preventing the morning sunshine from illuminating your backyard sanctuary and housing twenty noisy families whose children run around on the street because there is no yard to play in, then that is the kind of change you are suggesting. The A.C.T government wants to do this too, bring medium to high density housing to our inner city areas to bring people closer to work. Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.
If you think getting everyone onto bikes and walking is the answer, try cycling in Beijing. I have never been more scared of riding a bike as I did there. So many people on so narrow a pathway, handlebars inches from clipping one another….
Anyway, I’ve finished my coffee now so better wrap this up. For $300,000 less most people will put up with the traffic, enjoy their spacious backyard, en-suite, energy efficiency and the security of knowing their plumbing won’t need tearing up and replacing in the next few decades.

The house I bought in Narrabundah was the cheapest on the market in the whole of Canberra at that time. The new houses in the outer suburbs were more expensive. As for plumbing, yes I did replace the underground water pipe running from the metre to the house (after living in the house for some years). But I imagine that was a cheaper job than the wall that had to be pulled down in the new house next door to replace the leaking pipe in that. Even new houses can have shoddy work. Houses in Narrabundah are are not necessarily more expensive than houses in the outer suburbs even today. You sound just like the people who couldn’t imagine living without an ensuite in my day and wouldn’t dream of buying a house like the example below in Narrabundah. Yes, it’s small, but there was a family of five living before me in it. There was three of us. The most expensive winter electricity bill I had was about $600. Is your bill any less?
http://www.allhomes.com.au/ah/act/sale-residential/10-euroka-street-narrabundah-canberra/1316949303111

My house had three bedrooms; not two as in the example.

You just proved my point. Almost half a million for two bedrooms in Narrabundah when a 3 bed with ensuite in new suburb can be attained for just over $300k. That’s why people commute and families live on the outskirts. They need the extra rooms for the kids and can’t buy in inner city areas without spending more than they can afford.

The example of the two bedroom house I gave, also comes in three bedrooms and they generally sell for about the same price. It’s more about the land than the house. There are two and three bedroom Mallee style houses and two and three bedroom Bega style houses in Narrabundah. When they built them, there were not many designs. The one I gave looks like a Mallee design house to me. I think the Bega design houses are a bit better design.
Have you factored in the cost of the car, the petrol, etc. I just read “The annual NRMA vehicle survey has found that costs around $260 a week to run an average Australian Family car.” That’s $13,520 a year; more if the household has another car. Plus the travel time which you could be spending with your family? Do you have a choice of several schools within walking distance, so the children can walk to school (again no car needed)?
There are newish apartments with three bedrooms available for less than the example house. Some have a courtyard. Many families (maybe not Canberra) grow up in apartments. My first home as a child was a flat above shops.
Many factors of where a person lives is a personal choice and the lifestyle they want and are prepared, or not prepared to give up, even temporally. I chose to give up things to live closer to work, so as to have other advantages. Many other people are not willing, or can’t conceive, giving those things up.
The average house in Canberra is over $500,000 apparently, and the average first home about $400,000.

Maya123 said :

From the ACT Emergency Services website: http://esa.act.gov.au/actas/fees-and-charges/

“ACT Residents travelling in a motor vehicle are covered for emergency ambulance services within the ACT through the road rescue fee levied on vehicle registration. This does not cover incidents with personal liability of injury or damage to a third party.”

I’ve thought further on this. This means that the passengers in the car, who have not paid this fee, are also covered, while a person cycling who might have been hit by the car, is not covered. The passengers don’t pay this fee, because there’s one fee for a car with only driver, and the fee is not increased when there are passengers, so the fee is in effect only paid by the driver. The others get a free ride regarding this insurance, so to speak.

All vehicle drivers are required to have compulsory third party insurance, which covers “third parties” like “the other guy”.

The item on my rego that I object to is not the Fire and Rescue fee, but the new one: “Lifetime Care and Support Levy”. It seems designed to make motor vehicle owners alone pay for the inevitable consequences of foolishly allowing motor vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians to play together in confined spaces.

shellcase said :

G’afternoon JC and all, yes I have seen the plans et al. My point being why build a car park at Mitchell? Are there not already morning traffic jams along Gungahlin and Flemington roads? Why get into a traffic jam to change to another mode of tpt to avoid a traffic jam?

The train starts at Gungahlin Town Centre; are those living in Gungahlin who must first drive to a train station meant to drive from, say, Moncrieff/Casey/Jacka, to Mitchell before catching the train? Why bother? That’s roughly half the distance to Civic or Russell, may as well stay in the car.

I’ll bet the value of a weekly train fare the ACTION system won’t be anywhere near revitalised to provide feeder services from outlying suburbs to the station.

Don’t disagree there should be a park and ride in the town centre too. But look at a map and you can see why the location has been choosen. It is the most central location in the whole of Gungahlin.

The way the town centre was built is a mess, and traffic around there will only get worse. Mitchell lies within easy access of Gungahlin Drive, Flemmington Road and Horse Park Drive, so logical.

As to why you would change, simple really. The areas around the City, Russell and the Parl triangle do not have endless amounts of land for more and more carparks, nor do the roads closer to these locations have endless capacity either. By having park and rides in places like Mitchell and a a reasonable public transport system you lessen then need for this very expensive infrastructure. Sure roads in an around Gungahlin will need to improve, that is a given.

Anyway to use your argument, why would anyone in Sydney drive to a train station only to change mode when they may as well drive all the way into the city? Never mind of course the congestion, lack of parking and cost of parking. The same issues do very much apply here too.

G’afternoon JC and all, yes I have seen the plans et al. My point being why build a car park at Mitchell? Are there not already morning traffic jams along Gungahlin and Flemington roads? Why get into a traffic jam to change to another mode of tpt to avoid a traffic jam?

The train starts at Gungahlin Town Centre; are those living in Gungahlin who must first drive to a train station meant to drive from, say, Moncrieff/Casey/Jacka, to Mitchell before catching the train? Why bother? That’s roughly half the distance to Civic or Russell, may as well stay in the car.

I’ll bet the value of a weekly train fare the ACTION system won’t be anywhere near revitalised to provide feeder services from outlying suburbs to the station.

Maya123 said :

Maya123 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

Maya123, there is a reason first home buyers don’t buy in Narrabundah or anywhere close to the city. It is approximately $300,000+. That’s the difference in price between a 3 bedroom house in the burbs and one in the old leaf-lined streets of central Canberra. If money grew on trees then yes your idea would be viable but availability is also another factor. There are only six 3 bedroom houses for sale presently in your neighborhood as opposed to sixteen in a selected western Belconnen suburb. Sure, apartments might be an alternative but priced accordingly at 3x what a bedroom is worth on the outskirts too.
If you want the land next door to your house developed into a multistory dwelling, preventing the morning sunshine from illuminating your backyard sanctuary and housing twenty noisy families whose children run around on the street because there is no yard to play in, then that is the kind of change you are suggesting. The A.C.T government wants to do this too, bring medium to high density housing to our inner city areas to bring people closer to work. Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.
If you think getting everyone onto bikes and walking is the answer, try cycling in Beijing. I have never been more scared of riding a bike as I did there. So many people on so narrow a pathway, handlebars inches from clipping one another….
Anyway, I’ve finished my coffee now so better wrap this up. For $300,000 less most people will put up with the traffic, enjoy their spacious backyard, en-suite, energy efficiency and the security of knowing their plumbing won’t need tearing up and replacing in the next few decades.

The house I bought in Narrabundah was the cheapest on the market in the whole of Canberra at that time. The new houses in the outer suburbs were more expensive. As for plumbing, yes I did replace the underground water pipe running from the metre to the house (after living in the house for some years). But I imagine that was a cheaper job than the wall that had to be pulled down in the new house next door to replace the leaking pipe in that. Even new houses can have shoddy work. Houses in Narrabundah are are not necessarily more expensive than houses in the outer suburbs even today. You sound just like the people who couldn’t imagine living without an ensuite in my day and wouldn’t dream of buying a house like the example below in Narrabundah. Yes, it’s small, but there was a family of five living before me in it. There was three of us. The most expensive winter electricity bill I had was about $600. Is your bill any less?
http://www.allhomes.com.au/ah/act/sale-residential/10-euroka-street-narrabundah-canberra/1316949303111

My house had three bedrooms; not two as in the example.

You just proved my point. Almost half a million for two bedrooms in Narrabundah when a 3 bed with ensuite in new suburb can be attained for just over $300k. That’s why people commute and families live on the outskirts. They need the extra rooms for the kids and can’t buy in inner city areas without spending more than they can afford.

From the ACT Emergency Services website: http://esa.act.gov.au/actas/fees-and-charges/

“ACT Residents travelling in a motor vehicle are covered for emergency ambulance services within the ACT through the road rescue fee levied on vehicle registration. This does not cover incidents with personal liability of injury or damage to a third party.”

I’ve thought further on this. This means that the passengers in the car, who have not paid this fee, are also covered, while a person cycling who might have been hit by the car, is not covered. The passengers don’t pay this fee, because there’s one fee for a car with only driver, and the fee is not increased when there are passengers, so the fee is in effect only paid by the driver. The others get a free ride regarding this insurance, so to speak.

Postalgeek said :

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

No, cyclists who aren’t also drivers don’t pay the annual $16.60, but then they don’t wear and damage the roads like cars or trucks while still contributing for construction and upkeep through tax. And they generally don’t leave a path of destruction, require fire units to attend or extensive mop up, or require emergency equipment like the Jaws of Life to extricate them from their bicycle.
As for ambulances, if someone, anyone, uses an ambulance they are charged for it. And you’ll have to stump up some evidence for the assertion that cyclists use ambulances more than motorists, given that, in NSW at any rate, motorists use hearses a lot more than cyclists, by a factor of at least 10. I doubt that figures are reversed when it comes to ambulances.

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/dynamic/nsw-road-toll-daily.pdf

True, the cost of roads comes out of consolidated revenue, but we all know that it is petrol excise taxes that allow that and a lot more besides to happen. Hence the feeling that if you don’t drive you don’t pay for the roads.

In any case, cyclists are definitely benefiting from the need of motor vehicles to have nice roads, bridges, etc to drive over. Motor vehicle drivers derive little to no, and even negative, benefit from sharing the roads with cyclists. Cyclists are not required to be licensed or even competent, do not need to have their bicycles registered as road-worthy, or to be insured for damage to either themselves or others.

And an anecdote: I walk to work and was recently almost run down as I crossed at the lights by a cyclist riding through a red light, as many seem to think they have the right to do. Not sure who would be paying my medical/hospital bills had we collided.

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

No, cyclists who aren’t also drivers don’t pay the annual $16.60, but then they don’t wear and damage the roads like cars or trucks while still contributing for construction and upkeep through tax. And they generally don’t leave a path of destruction, require fire units to attend or extensive mop up, or require emergency equipment like the Jaws of Life to extricate them from their bicycle.
As for ambulances, if someone, anyone, uses an ambulance they are charged for it. And you’ll have to stump up some evidence for the assertion that cyclists use ambulances more than motorists, given that, in NSW at any rate, motorists use hearses a lot more than cyclists, by a factor of at least 10. I doubt that figures are reversed when it comes to ambulances.

http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/downloads/dynamic/nsw-road-toll-daily.pdf

dungfungus said :

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

Most adult cyclists do pay this, as they also own cars, as I’m sure you know. But just because they own a car doesn’t mean it has to be driven everywhere, and so the roads have less wear and tear.

All adult car owners pay the fee; only cyclists without cars don’t and there are plenty of them.
A lot of car drivers would like to be cyclists however for one reason or another they can’t.
Care to comment why the cyclists use the ambulance/ED services disproportionately more that motorists?

From the ACT Emergency Services website: http://esa.act.gov.au/actas/fees-and-charges/

“ACT Residents travelling in a motor vehicle are covered for emergency ambulance services within the ACT through the road rescue fee levied on vehicle registration. This does not cover incidents with personal liability of injury or damage to a third party.”

So only “ACT Residents travelling in a motor vehicle are covered for emergency ambulance services within the ACT”, not others, which I presume means people cycling are not covered, so why do you think that people who don’t own a car should pay for a service that won’t cover them?

I have had the need twice to have an ambulance called for me. Neither time connected with me cycling or being an “ACT Residents travelling in a motor vehicle”. Once I wasn’t taken to hospital, but treated on the spot; the other time I was. Both times I received a bill of, from memory, of about $600. No car insurance paid for this. My private health insurance did. If I hadn’t had private health insurance I would have had to pay this bill myself.

So from what the ACT Emergency Services website says, ACT people travelling in cars are covered, but people not travelling in cars, such as people cycling and in other situations, such as mine, are not covered by this.

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

Most adult cyclists do pay this, as they also own cars, as I’m sure you know. But just because they own a car doesn’t mean it has to be driven everywhere, and so the roads have less wear and tear.

All adult car owners pay the fee; only cyclists without cars don’t and there are plenty of them.
A lot of car drivers would like to be cyclists however for one reason or another they can’t.
Care to comment why the cyclists use the ambulance/ED services disproportionately more that motorists?

BlowMeDown said :

rosscoact said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

I live in the city, and walk to work. 12 minute “commute”, which includes stopping by a cafe on the way for my morning brew. I’ll never understand people who buy McMansions in the middle of nowhere, only to waste two hours a day of their lives sitting in a car, and then complain when everyone else who did the same thing is stuck beside them in traffic.

My commute is the 10 seconds it takes me to walk downstairs but I don’t post that in a thread about roads because it would be fatuous.

That’s not fatuous. Working from home is where most of us should be, with a first-class NBN anyone who works in a cubical now need not be commuting at all. The current Federal Government can’t see that the cost of a first-class NBN comes from the money saved on extra road lanes and their endless upkeep, money saved on child-care centres, parental leave schemes, disability care of cyclists who insisted on playing in the traffic, etc.

When Flex-time was introduced to the Public Service 40 years ago it was in large part to ease the peak-hour problem. Back then it was roads like Adelaide Avenue between Woden and City that were the bottlenecks, long before the infamous Richard Carlton 60 minutes Canberra-bash showing an Adelaide Avenue with 6 all-but-empty lanes.

I grew up in a family where my father opened a door in the front of the house and walked into the work office. He stepped back through the door for lunch. Our cat shared its time between the family and the office staff.
My first job was across the street from home.

vintage123 said :

I certainly wouldn’t choose to house my family in a street of drug dealers and theives. It would be highly irresponsible and unsafe, especially for young children and my wife. I also don’t agree that people move to gungahlin to live in ultra modern McMansions. It’s more likely that those who live in the north were unable to afford living any closer to the centre. Additionally it is logistically important to live in an area that has services such as childcare and schooling, and an area that allows access to facilities such as grocery shops and convenience stores. In this day and age people tend to move from their place of employment more often and if this occurs it is not viable to sell the home, pull the kids from school and move 20km to the other side of canberra. The reality is that with a family and two working parents more often than not it will involve some more of commute and in the ACT this normally involves a commute either to the city, through the city or from North to South or East to west or vice versa. I guess all we are asking for is an efficient way to achieve this commute whether it be by bus, car, tram or push bike. There is nothing worse than being stuck in traffic nowing that for every minute late to childcare you are going to be charged six dollars.

Similar arguments that were given to me when I moved to (lower) Narrabundah. The people who gave them are likely mostly still living in the outer suburbs and complaining about the commute, while I am now living in an area which has improved. You are being condescending to your wife expressing it that way. She is an adult, not a child. I am female by the way (as you should have been able to tell from the name) and never had a problem living there. There were more females living in my street than males, so other females didn’t appear to have a problem living here either. There was a childcare centre within walking distance and several schools. The drug dealers never worried us. The burglars were a bigger problem and a number of houses in my street were robbed; some more than once. I was fortunate that I wasn’t, but then my house was one of the oldest and the burglars appeared more attracted to the newer houses. Plus the design of the windows on the older houses made breaking in a bit harder than the windows on the newer houses at the time. The burglaries in the area went down for a time (Griffith’s went up) when the burglars had a visit from some locals and were warned to leave Narrabundah alone. This is all past history now.

dungfungus said :

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

Most adult cyclists do pay this, as they also own cars, as I’m sure you know. But just because they own a car doesn’t mean it has to be driven everywhere, and so the roads have less wear and tear.

rosscoact said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

I live in the city, and walk to work. 12 minute “commute”, which includes stopping by a cafe on the way for my morning brew. I’ll never understand people who buy McMansions in the middle of nowhere, only to waste two hours a day of their lives sitting in a car, and then complain when everyone else who did the same thing is stuck beside them in traffic.

My commute is the 10 seconds it takes me to walk downstairs but I don’t post that in a thread about roads because it would be fatuous.

That’s not fatuous. Working from home is where most of us should be, with a first-class NBN anyone who works in a cubical now need not be commuting at all. The current Federal Government can’t see that the cost of a first-class NBN comes from the money saved on extra road lanes and their endless upkeep, money saved on child-care centres, parental leave schemes, disability care of cyclists who insisted on playing in the traffic, etc.

When Flex-time was introduced to the Public Service 40 years ago it was in large part to ease the peak-hour problem. Back then it was roads like Adelaide Avenue between Woden and City that were the bottlenecks, long before the infamous Richard Carlton 60 minutes Canberra-bash showing an Adelaide Avenue with 6 all-but-empty lanes.

Maya123 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

Maya123, there is a reason first home buyers don’t buy in Narrabundah or anywhere close to the city. It is approximately $300,000+. That’s the difference in price between a 3 bedroom house in the burbs and one in the old leaf-lined streets of central Canberra. If money grew on trees then yes your idea would be viable but availability is also another factor. There are only six 3 bedroom houses for sale presently in your neighborhood as opposed to sixteen in a selected western Belconnen suburb. Sure, apartments might be an alternative but priced accordingly at 3x what a bedroom is worth on the outskirts too.
If you want the land next door to your house developed into a multistory dwelling, preventing the morning sunshine from illuminating your backyard sanctuary and housing twenty noisy families whose children run around on the street because there is no yard to play in, then that is the kind of change you are suggesting. The A.C.T government wants to do this too, bring medium to high density housing to our inner city areas to bring people closer to work. Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.
If you think getting everyone onto bikes and walking is the answer, try cycling in Beijing. I have never been more scared of riding a bike as I did there. So many people on so narrow a pathway, handlebars inches from clipping one another….
Anyway, I’ve finished my coffee now so better wrap this up. For $300,000 less most people will put up with the traffic, enjoy their spacious backyard, en-suite, energy efficiency and the security of knowing their plumbing won’t need tearing up and replacing in the next few decades.

The house I bought in Narrabundah was the cheapest on the market in the whole of Canberra at that time. The new houses in the outer suburbs were more expensive. As for plumbing, yes I did replace the underground water pipe running from the metre to the house (after living in the house for some years). But I imagine that was a cheaper job than the wall that had to be pulled down in the new house next door to replace the leaking pipe in that. Even new houses can have shoddy work. Houses in Narrabundah are are not necessarily more expensive than houses in the outer suburbs even today. You sound just like the people who couldn’t imagine living without an ensuite in my day and wouldn’t dream of buying a house like the example below in Narrabundah. Yes, it’s small, but there was a family of five living before me in it. There was three of us. The most expensive winter electricity bill I had was about $600. Is your bill any less?
http://www.allhomes.com.au/ah/act/sale-residential/10-euroka-street-narrabundah-canberra/1316949303111

My house had three bedrooms; not two as in the example.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

Maya123, there is a reason first home buyers don’t buy in Narrabundah or anywhere close to the city. It is approximately $300,000+. That’s the difference in price between a 3 bedroom house in the burbs and one in the old leaf-lined streets of central Canberra. If money grew on trees then yes your idea would be viable but availability is also another factor. There are only six 3 bedroom houses for sale presently in your neighborhood as opposed to sixteen in a selected western Belconnen suburb. Sure, apartments might be an alternative but priced accordingly at 3x what a bedroom is worth on the outskirts too.
If you want the land next door to your house developed into a multistory dwelling, preventing the morning sunshine from illuminating your backyard sanctuary and housing twenty noisy families whose children run around on the street because there is no yard to play in, then that is the kind of change you are suggesting. The A.C.T government wants to do this too, bring medium to high density housing to our inner city areas to bring people closer to work. Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.
If you think getting everyone onto bikes and walking is the answer, try cycling in Beijing. I have never been more scared of riding a bike as I did there. So many people on so narrow a pathway, handlebars inches from clipping one another….
Anyway, I’ve finished my coffee now so better wrap this up. For $300,000 less most people will put up with the traffic, enjoy their spacious backyard, en-suite, energy efficiency and the security of knowing their plumbing won’t need tearing up and replacing in the next few decades.

The house I bought in Narrabundah was the cheapest on the market in the whole of Canberra at that time. The new houses in the outer suburbs were more expensive. As for plumbing, yes I did replace the underground water pipe running from the metre to the house (after living in the house for some years). But I imagine that was a cheaper job than the wall that had to be pulled down in the new house next door to replace the leaking pipe in that. Even new houses can have shoddy work. Houses in Narrabundah are are not necessarily more expensive than houses in the outer suburbs even today. You sound just like the people who couldn’t imagine living without an ensuite in my day and wouldn’t dream of buying a house like the example below in Narrabundah. Yes, it’s small, but there was a family of five living before me in it. There was three of us. The most expensive winter electricity bill I had was about $600. Is your bill any less?
http://www.allhomes.com.au/ah/act/sale-residential/10-euroka-street-narrabundah-canberra/1316949303111

ChrisinTurner said :

There is no work for people living in Gungahlin because their office space was built at the airport. Now they are constucting a very expensive freeway to connect the workers with their offices. Great planning.

Majura Parkway is not only for Brindabella Park office workers, it is also for people wanting to get to the airport and also Fyshwick, Queanbeyan and even Tuggeranong. And also for people from those areas wanting to travel to Gungahlin or Belconnen. It’s also freight corridor with heaps of trucks using that road every day. It will be much safer now with the dual carriageway

JC said :

bd84 said :

The ACT Government has stuck their fingers in their ears and gone ‘lalala’ about traffic problems in Gungahlin for years. Absolutely no forward planning of traffic as they have developed new suburbs and they keep adding more. This now means that all major roads in Gungahlin operate beyond their capacity with the Government sitting on plans ‘waiting budget funding’ when they could have funded and built the infrastructure years ago. The new Majura Parkway will essentially create a funnel into Horse Park Dr, as with all the other one lane roads in Gungahlin.

The irony. The ACT Government has done the roads in Molonglo with the future in mind and Elf above is asking how they justify it.

Now some credit (minor) where due though, at least the newest part of Horse Park Drive has been built with the intersections into Moncrief done so that if the road is duplicated the intersections won’t need to be redone. Unlike the section from Amaroo to the Federal Highway, which was/is very hodge potch.

How can you possibly say they’ve built the roads in Molonglo looking to the future?

There is one main four land (two each way) road that’s been partially constructed down to near Coppins Crossing. It looks good now because people are still moving in to the early suburbs, just like Gungahlin roads looked all sweet fifteen years ago.

You’ll note that there isn’t even one new bridge crossing of the Molonglo river yet (in the future they’ll probably need two, north and east) and Cotter road has been a construction site and virtual parking lot for years. The duplication of Cotter road from the Parkway still isn’t done.

Postalgeek said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

And cyclists don’t even pay the annual $16.60 Road Rescue Fee that car owners have to pay but cyclists are using the ambulance services a lot more that motorists are.

switch said :

JC said :

The irony. The ACT Government has done the roads in Molonglo with the future in mind and Elf above is asking how they justify it.

Where’s the tram reservation?

I asked the same question above too.

JC said :

The irony. The ACT Government has done the roads in Molonglo with the future in mind and Elf above is asking how they justify it.

Where’s the tram reservation?

Roughly 13% of Canberrans live in Gungahlin (2011).
which equates to a likely scenario where over 80% of future public servants working in Gungahlin will not live in the local area and will need to commute to and from the area.
Its going to be good for the local businesses but terrible for the locals with parking and traffic woes. Good luck with the commuting hassles its only going to get worse.

bd84 said :

The ACT Government has stuck their fingers in their ears and gone ‘lalala’ about traffic problems in Gungahlin for years. Absolutely no forward planning of traffic as they have developed new suburbs and they keep adding more. This now means that all major roads in Gungahlin operate beyond their capacity with the Government sitting on plans ‘waiting budget funding’ when they could have funded and built the infrastructure years ago. The new Majura Parkway will essentially create a funnel into Horse Park Dr, as with all the other one lane roads in Gungahlin.

The irony. The ACT Government has done the roads in Molonglo with the future in mind and Elf above is asking how they justify it.

Now some credit (minor) where due though, at least the newest part of Horse Park Drive has been built with the intersections into Moncrief done so that if the road is duplicated the intersections won’t need to be redone. Unlike the section from Amaroo to the Federal Highway, which was/is very hodge potch.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.

Should that shift occur I guess a road lane would be allocated to cycles and ebikes 🙂

merlin bodega said :

The problem is a bad public transport system that forces people into their cars. It is unreliable, inefficient, expensive and slow.

Trams will fix all that.

Since I first moved to Gungahlin in 1998, the traffic problems have become steadily worse, all due to the strategic approach of having no exit from the town that does not involve at least one single lane patch of road. I abandoned the bus that was taking up to 50 minutes to travel from Palmerston to Civic even though I didn’t like driving for many reasons. For example, a route that has 21 bus stops between Palmerston and Civic doesn’t work and should go down the Gungahlin Drive route to Civic rather than Northbourne Ave to elevate passenger numbers and also relieve the significant bus caused congestion problems along Northbourne.

Why is it that no express bus routes from Gungahlin Town Centre go along the expensive Gungahlin Drive and make use of the underutilised bus infrastructure on Belconnen Way (again costing millions of dollars)?

The problem is a bad public transport system that forces people into their cars. It is unreliable, inefficient, expensive and slow.

Wildturkeycanoe, Building a shared path is a hell of a lot cheaper than building a road.
A city that wants to grow needs more transport options than just driving.

Maya123 said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

Maya123, there is a reason first home buyers don’t buy in Narrabundah or anywhere close to the city. It is approximately $300,000+. That’s the difference in price between a 3 bedroom house in the burbs and one in the old leaf-lined streets of central Canberra. If money grew on trees then yes your idea would be viable but availability is also another factor. There are only six 3 bedroom houses for sale presently in your neighborhood as opposed to sixteen in a selected western Belconnen suburb. Sure, apartments might be an alternative but priced accordingly at 3x what a bedroom is worth on the outskirts too.
If you want the land next door to your house developed into a multistory dwelling, preventing the morning sunshine from illuminating your backyard sanctuary and housing twenty noisy families whose children run around on the street because there is no yard to play in, then that is the kind of change you are suggesting. The A.C.T government wants to do this too, bring medium to high density housing to our inner city areas to bring people closer to work. Unfortunately, in time you will see the traffic woes creep from our roadways to our cycleways. The Commonwealth and Kings Avenue bridges are getting more and more choked up with cyclists, runners and sight-seers. The more people give up on driving their cars, the more they will clog up the transport routes that are available. Buses will be full and”path rage” will become a term familiar to the five o’clock news broadcasters.
If you think getting everyone onto bikes and walking is the answer, try cycling in Beijing. I have never been more scared of riding a bike as I did there. So many people on so narrow a pathway, handlebars inches from clipping one another….
Anyway, I’ve finished my coffee now so better wrap this up. For $300,000 less most people will put up with the traffic, enjoy their spacious backyard, en-suite, energy efficiency and the security of knowing their plumbing won’t need tearing up and replacing in the next few decades.

The ACT Government has stuck their fingers in their ears and gone ‘lalala’ about traffic problems in Gungahlin for years. Absolutely no forward planning of traffic as they have developed new suburbs and they keep adding more. This now means that all major roads in Gungahlin operate beyond their capacity with the Government sitting on plans ‘waiting budget funding’ when they could have funded and built the infrastructure years ago. The new Majura Parkway will essentially create a funnel into Horse Park Dr, as with all the other one lane roads in Gungahlin.

So, the problem is getting people from one place to another all at once. Is the solution

a) Build wider roads so that more 2 x 5 m steel boxes can converge on the same places at once and hence move the bottleneck closer to your destination, but with longer waits, and use a whole lot of space at the destination to store those boxes, or

b) Improve mass transit, reducing the amount of space on the road per person, and allow the removal of the steel boxes after the people are in place?

Maya123 said :

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

I live in the city, and walk to work. 12 minute “commute”, which includes stopping by a cafe on the way for my morning brew. I’ll never understand people who buy McMansions in the middle of nowhere, only to waste two hours a day of their lives sitting in a car, and then complain when everyone else who did the same thing is stuck beside them in traffic.

Good comments. When I bought my first house many years ago the norm then was to buy a new house in Tuggeranong. If I had done this as most first home buyers appeared to be doing, not only would the house be new, I would have had a better and a bigger house with extras like an ensuite, rather than the old, seen better days, tiny house I bought in Narrabundah. In fact, the same people who were buying in Tuggeranong warned me against buying such a crappy (my word) house in the iffy lower Narrabundah area. I ignored them and bought the old Narrabundah house. No way did I want to live so far from work and then complain about the roads and bus service. I could ride a bike to work. I never regretted buying closer to work. Yes, in those days lower Narrabundah was an iffy place to live, but I was fortunately never worried by the people living in the two houses dealing in heroin, for instance, across the road, or the two houses also in my street where local burglars lived (I was probably lucky there I was never broken into, but my old house didn’t look that attractive.) In fact they would say hello to me. Three doors down the street there was a very nasty character, but I just avoided him (he was also one of the burglars). I did confront his young (far better natured) ‘apprentice’ robbing the building site next door, and he dropped what he was about to steal and fled. There were other less than desirable people around too. Why I am giving these examples, is that even with all these local reasons why the area might not have been desirable to live in, the advantage of being closer to work far outweighed moving to an outer suburb with the transport woes. Narrabundah has now changed. The heroin houses were raided by police and the owners went to jail. Other houses also had late night raids. Over the years the area has improved, so obviously there some other people who also didn’t want the transport hassle of the outer suburbs and saw the sense of downgrading what they wanted in a house and living closer to work.
If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

“Narrabundah has now changed. The heroin houses were raided by police and the owners went to jail.”
Now the chavs pass their time by slashing tyres on cars.

I certainly wouldn’t choose to house my family in a street of drug dealers and theives. It would be highly irresponsible and unsafe, especially for young children and my wife. I also don’t agree that people move to gungahlin to live in ultra modern McMansions. It’s more likely that those who live in the north were unable to afford living any closer to the centre. Additionally it is logistically important to live in an area that has services such as childcare and schooling, and an area that allows access to facilities such as grocery shops and convenience stores. In this day and age people tend to move from their place of employment more often and if this occurs it is not viable to sell the home, pull the kids from school and move 20km to the other side of canberra. The reality is that with a family and two working parents more often than not it will involve some more of commute and in the ACT this normally involves a commute either to the city, through the city or from North to South or East to west or vice versa. I guess all we are asking for is an efficient way to achieve this commute whether it be by bus, car, tram or push bike. There is nothing worse than being stuck in traffic nowing that for every minute late to childcare you are going to be charged six dollars.

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

I live in the city, and walk to work. 12 minute “commute”, which includes stopping by a cafe on the way for my morning brew. I’ll never understand people who buy McMansions in the middle of nowhere, only to waste two hours a day of their lives sitting in a car, and then complain when everyone else who did the same thing is stuck beside them in traffic.

Good comments. When I bought my first house many years ago the norm then was to buy a new house in Tuggeranong. If I had done this as most first home buyers appeared to be doing, not only would the house be new, I would have had a better and a bigger house with extras like an ensuite, rather than the old, seen better days, tiny house I bought in Narrabundah. In fact, the same people who were buying in Tuggeranong warned me against buying such a crappy (my word) house in the iffy lower Narrabundah area. I ignored them and bought the old Narrabundah house. No way did I want to live so far from work and then complain about the roads and bus service. I could ride a bike to work. I never regretted buying closer to work. Yes, in those days lower Narrabundah was an iffy place to live, but I was fortunately never worried by the people living in the two houses dealing in heroin, for instance, across the road, or the two houses also in my street where local burglars lived (I was probably lucky there I was never broken into, but my old house didn’t look that attractive.) In fact they would say hello to me. Three doors down the street there was a very nasty character, but I just avoided him (he was also one of the burglars). I did confront his young (far better natured) ‘apprentice’ robbing the building site next door, and he dropped what he was about to steal and fled. There were other less than desirable people around too. Why I am giving these examples, is that even with all these local reasons why the area might not have been desirable to live in, the advantage of being closer to work far outweighed moving to an outer suburb with the transport woes. Narrabundah has now changed. The heroin houses were raided by police and the owners went to jail. Other houses also had late night raids. Over the years the area has improved, so obviously there some other people who also didn’t want the transport hassle of the outer suburbs and saw the sense of downgrading what they wanted in a house and living closer to work.
If being stuck in long lines of traffic, the slow drive to work and the bad public transport is something you are likely to complain about, DON’T buy in the outer suburbs. Lower your expectations for what you want in a house and live closer to work.

shellcase said :

I predict the speed limit along Flemington/Northbourne will be reduced to 50 k’s. Further to all of the considerations and problems this project raises is something I haven’t heard mentioned and that is provision for parking of cars for those who live in outer areas of Gungahlin and will still need to drive to the station to catch the train.

You obviously have never looked at any of the plans or discussions. A park and ride is planned, with the rather large car park planned to be built next to the Mitchell Waste Transfer Station.

Elf said :

Does anyone know how the government works out where to spend their road money? Take a trip along Coppins Crossing and you’ll be scratching your head like me! After the river crossing coming from Belconnen it becomes this amazing dual lane road complete with shiny new bus lanes but what is missing is the houses and the buses! Clearly someone very important lives out there and requested the type of roads we got prior to self government.

Some one needs to explain this. On a Saturday at 10am i was at the end of the line on Mirabel drive with traffic banked up from Gungahlin Drive, no accidents, no peak hour and with the land set aside for duplication beside me reminding me why we need to turn governments over every 2 terms regardless of their stain. I get to Coppins crossing, and just me and 2 other cars out in the country with a lane or two or three counting the bus lanes and no one to hold us up.

How do they justify this!

How do they justify it, umm it’s called planning ahead.

Anyway your post just proves no matter what the government just cannot win. Build Gungahlin (and Tuggernong before it), with single lane roads that eventually get congested and people whinge, as you have done in your second paragraph. Build a new area with wide roads designed for the future, people whinge, as you have done in your first. So great one a double whinge in the same post.

But getting back to John Gorton Drive (the new road isn’t called Coppins Crossing Road) what is strange is the median isn’t wide enough for any future light rail. This despite the way the housing being high density like Flemmington Road.

PS self government has been in since 1989, and if you were to look at John Gorton Drive you might notice it was built a lot more recently, like on the past few years. So not sure who the important person is and why they asked for this before self government.

Elf said :

Does anyone know how the government works out where to spend their road money? Take a trip along Coppins Crossing and you’ll be scratching your head like me! After the river crossing coming from Belconnen it becomes this amazing dual lane road complete with shiny new bus lanes but what is missing is the houses and the buses! Clearly someone very important lives out there and requested the type of roads we got prior to self government.

Some one needs to explain this. On a Saturday at 10am i was at the end of the line on Mirabel drive with traffic banked up from Gungahlin Drive, no accidents, no peak hour and with the land set aside for duplication beside me reminding me why we need to turn governments over every 2 terms regardless of their stain. I get to Coppins crossing, and just me and 2 other cars out in the country with a lane or two or three counting the bus lanes and no one to hold us up.

How do they justify this!

Haha, Nice one.

I can’t possibly think why John Gorton Drive has been built like that. It’s like they built it solely for those strange big trucks and eathmovers all over the place. I wonder what they’re all doing out there?

tim_c said :

It’s all part of Shane Rottenbury’s strategy to get people out of their cars and into…….. err, um, alternative forms of transport, such as…. err, ugh, sustainable alternatives.

Spot on! Greens won’t rest until every internal combustion engine is gone. That should do wonders for the local economy – fewer car dealers, mechanics, RTA staff cuts, RUS revenue loss. They were opposed to the Majura Parkway upgrade, simply ignoring the volume of road freight using this road, but I guess trucks are too environmentally evil as well.

There is no work for people living in Gungahlin because their office space was built at the airport. Now they are constucting a very expensive freeway to connect the workers with their offices. Great planning.

Can anyone tell me how long it takes the morning route 202 express buses to get to the city, even with no bus-lane in Northbourne Ave?

Belconnen Way works OK with two car-lanes plus one bus-lane. Why wouldn’t this work for Northbourne?

nemesisrocks said :

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

I live in the city, and walk to work. 12 minute “commute”, which includes stopping by a cafe on the way for my morning brew. I’ll never understand people who buy McMansions in the middle of nowhere, only to waste two hours a day of their lives sitting in a car, and then complain when everyone else who did the same thing is stuck beside them in traffic.

My commute is the 10 seconds it takes me to walk downstairs but I don’t post that in a thread about roads because it would be fatuous.

Does anyone know how the government works out where to spend their road money? Take a trip along Coppins Crossing and you’ll be scratching your head like me! After the river crossing coming from Belconnen it becomes this amazing dual lane road complete with shiny new bus lanes but what is missing is the houses and the buses! Clearly someone very important lives out there and requested the type of roads we got prior to self government.

Some one needs to explain this. On a Saturday at 10am i was at the end of the line on Mirabel drive with traffic banked up from Gungahlin Drive, no accidents, no peak hour and with the land set aside for duplication beside me reminding me why we need to turn governments over every 2 terms regardless of their stain. I get to Coppins crossing, and just me and 2 other cars out in the country with a lane or two or three counting the bus lanes and no one to hold us up.

How do they justify this!

Traffic out of Gungahlin will be worse than now. The new toy train set construction will see all intersections controlled by traffic lights and the toy will get priority while traffic waits.

Pedestrians crossing Flemington/Northbourne to board or alight from the train will create increased traffic delays while they walk across the new pedestrian crossings at each train station.

I predict the speed limit along Flemington/Northbourne will be reduced to 50 k’s. Further to all of the considerations and problems this project raises is something I haven’t heard mentioned and that is provision for parking of cars for those who live in outer areas of Gungahlin and will still need to drive to the station to catch the train.

For the past forty years-plus we have subsidized ACTION to the tune of more than $2M per week, yep, per week. That doesn’t look like easing up any time soon and this project, built for no reason other than to appease the Greens will double that impost.

There’s a pretty easy solution to all your problems.

Don’t live in Gungahlin.

I live in the city, and walk to work. 12 minute “commute”, which includes stopping by a cafe on the way for my morning brew. I’ll never understand people who buy McMansions in the middle of nowhere, only to waste two hours a day of their lives sitting in a car, and then complain when everyone else who did the same thing is stuck beside them in traffic.

We see it every morning when we cross the Barton Highway: from Belconnen with its free flowing traffic to Gungahlin with traffic jams at almost every intersection. It’s like night and day (or day and night, to keep the simile consistent).

Demographics must have something to do with it, including age structure and household occupancy rates, but even so, a well-planned urban system should be designed for the population it serves. It shouldn’t be designed against it, which is what we seem to see. Even getting out of individual suburbs to enter the main roads seems to be difficult at the wrong time of day (if the queues at the intersections are anything to go by).

Sadly, widening a few critical roads probably will see the major bottlenecks pushed down the road a bit. Even an overpass at the GDE-Barton Highway intersection wouldn’t make much difference any more. There’s still those badly timed traffic lights that back everything up for miles.

Whoever designed the road and traffic system for Gungahlin should count themselves lucky they don’t live in an era of executions for stuff-ups.

It’s all part of Shane Rottenbury’s strategy to get people out of their cars and into…….. err, um, alternative forms of transport, such as…. err, ugh, sustainable alternatives.

It takes a special skillset to achieve the traffic jams of big cities when we have such a small population. And in the event that even this isn’t enough, he can be counted on to slow you down (as well as increasing operating costs, fuel and maintenance, noise and carbon emissions) by sticking inverted potholes (speedhumps) all over the roads with hitherto smooth-flowing traffic.

If it’s taking an hour to get to Civic from Gunghalin in the car, you may well be faster on a bike. Plus you don’t need to allocate cardio time at the gym.

I can no longer blame my commute time on anyone else. And I’m one less person pushing for more – expensive-roads.

On the topic of jobs, I believe Shared Services ICT is moving up north very soon, which will hopefully be the start of a trend towards more office jobs in Gunghalin.

You’re right about the tram priorities though. It’s not a good look for ACTGOV to erode the benefit of the tram by encouraging driving with more roads, especially before giving other areas a bit of love. I hear Tuggeranong isn’t great for commuting to work either, and it’s even a little bit further away from Civic.

I’d like to see this light rail project spread around Canberra. Sooner or later it will be a better value proposition than driving.

wildturkeycanoe said :

The current congestion is most likely a result of the roadworks on Majura Parkway, forcing everyone heading to the Airport and Fyshwick to divert through the city instead. I heard this first hand from a regular commuter who found it quicker to go through Limestone Avenue than the chaos out east.
As for the toy train set, it won’t be any quicker to drive your car to the Gunners town center, pay for parking and then take the train in to town, stopping at every station on the way, then walking all the way to your conveniently located office some blocks from the final stop.

Of course the tram won’t be any quicker once its built, which is my gripe. However I can see that eventually it will be the best way to travel, because parking costs will go up in the city and traffic is only going to get worse. I think a connection through to Russell and the airport actually makes sense though (I’m sure if the Government paid for it to Russell the airport would pay for the link to the airport. At least then if you fly into Canberra you can catch the light rail to the city where public transport is and/or better for people to pick you up from and give you a lift.

Abbott has the answer, no jobs to drive to.

wildturkeycanoe said :

The current congestion is most likely a result of the roadworks on Majura Parkway, forcing everyone heading to the Airport and Fyshwick to divert through the city instead. I heard this first hand from a regular commuter who found it quicker to go through Limestone Avenue than the chaos out east.

Tell your friend to keep going along Limestone, it leaves the 25 minute run to Kingston clear for the smart people.

While Horse Park Drive desperately needs to be widened to four lanes from South of Gundaroo drive to the Federal Highway, which will effectively double the capacity of the road, unfortunately a new traffic problem and significant cause of delay is about to be created with the opening of the Majura Parkway.

At present, traffic on Horse Park Drive slows to 40km/h or less every morning around where it becomes the Majura Parkway underneath the Federal Highway due to roadworks; however, very rarely does traffic actually come to a stop. Once work is complete, this will be another TWO sets of traffic lights to negotiate on Horse Park Drive, which will bring traffic to a complete stop every couple of minutes for the benefit of four or five cars to cross the Southbound lanes. So every time the lights change, this will probably back traffic up all the way to the Well Station Drive intersection.

Considering the importance of the Majura Parkway and the large traffic volumes it is expected to carry, and taking into account the ever increasing population of Gungahlin, the construction of the Majura Parkway should have been the perfect opportunity to upgrade this intersection with the Federal Highway to a fully free flowing interchange, which would solve all congestion problems in this area. Instead, much like the Barton Highway roundabout “upgrade”, traffic lights have been chosen, no doubt to save cost. Again. the ACT government is not building adequate road infrastructure for future population growth.

I think it’s time the Glenloch interchange lost its title as the only one of its kind in Canberra!

The current congestion is most likely a result of the roadworks on Majura Parkway, forcing everyone heading to the Airport and Fyshwick to divert through the city instead. I heard this first hand from a regular commuter who found it quicker to go through Limestone Avenue than the chaos out east.
As for the toy train set, it won’t be any quicker to drive your car to the Gunners town center, pay for parking and then take the train in to town, stopping at every station on the way, then walking all the way to your conveniently located office some blocks from the final stop.

vintage123 said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Once the tram is in place all your problems will be solved!

Not entirely true. Tram will only service inner city. What about those who work elsewhere, such as the airport, belconnen, Woden and Southside.

Sorry, forget to put the sarcasm tag on. I don’t actually think it will make much difference at all, as it will just replace some buses. It also means that local govco will be justified in reducing spending on other roads in Gungahlin.

Weatherman said :

These issues of congestion have been around for years in larger cities. Monash Freeway had always been known as the south-east car park. Brisbane met north roads are also heavily congested as there is no major arterial motorway heading in the north and north west direction. Sydney roads are also a nightmare to commute through if you have to be attending meetings and appointments. Canberra is a growing city, however, congestion has always been common in large global cities. Gungahlin is still a developing area. Some of the group centres are still being constructed, which contain employment opportunities.

I hope to see duplication of Horse Park Drive and Gundaroo Drive as they are major thoroughfares. Canberra should also have light rail or heavy rail. Canberra is one of the few cities of its size that does not have commuter railway.

“Canberra should also have light rail or heavy rail.”

I agree and am pleased about the light rail that is proposed.

This is how Seattle’s light rail looks:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=light+rail+seattle&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RQISVZi7FtTi8AWik4HwBA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAw&biw=1664&bih=1027

vintage123 said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Once the tram is in place all your problems will be solved!

Not entirely true. Tram will only service inner city. What about those who work elsewhere, such as the airport, belconnen, Woden and Southside.

I’m on the South side and will rarely directly benefit from this light rail, but I still accept that it’s a good idea. It is short sighted to say what about me. Light rail can’t start everywhere at once (imagine THAT cost) and I accept as it has to start somewhere I might not initially benefit. I like to consider myself bigger than that narrow me-me, ‘How will it benefit ME, not living in Gungahlin?” view I read here so often.

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

Once the tram is in place all your problems will be solved!

Not entirely true. Tram will only service inner city. What about those who work elsewhere, such as the airport, belconnen, Woden and Southside.

chewy14 said :

“What measures will be put in place when the light rail gets underway?”

I’d suggest your woes going anywhere near Flemington Rd/Northbourne are not going to be fixed and indeed will likely become much worse. The tram will take up an entire lane and they will need to make the tram more attractive than driving for it to be viable. Hence spending large amounts on increasing the traffic capacity of these roads is unlikely.

Agreed. If there are residents in Canberra upset with the cost of light rail, well its even a bigger waste to spend money on duplicating all the roads out of Gungahlin. I’d suggest maybe some minor improvements at best will be done before the scheduled 2019 opening of the light rail.

That said people I knew kept telling me they wanted to build their own house and how lovely Gungahlin is and how cr*p Tuggeranong is. Now they whinge about the traffic!

These issues of congestion have been around for years in larger cities. Monash Freeway had always been known as the south-east car park. Brisbane met north roads are also heavily congested as there is no major arterial motorway heading in the north and north west direction. Sydney roads are also a nightmare to commute through if you have to be attending meetings and appointments. Canberra is a growing city, however, congestion has always been common in large global cities. Gungahlin is still a developing area. Some of the group centres are still being constructed, which contain employment opportunities.

I hope to see duplication of Horse Park Drive and Gundaroo Drive as they are major thoroughfares. Canberra should also have light rail or heavy rail. Canberra is one of the few cities of its size that does not have commuter railway.

Leon said :

The biggest traffic problem on Flemington Road is NOT the single lane section on the approach to the Federal Highway, but that the intersection operates at only 75% capacity.

Here’s how it works:

There are two right-turn lanes into Northbourne Avenue, and the lights stay green longe enough for about 16 rows of cars (i.e. 32 cars).

BUT the second right-turn lane is only long enough to hold about rows of 8 cars. Once 8 rows of cars have gone through, the right hand lane stays empty because cars entering from the single lane can’t easily accelerate fast enough to fill both lanes. So instead of 32 cars getting through on the green signal, only 24 get through.

If the second right-turn lane was extended far enough back to accommodate another 8 rows of cars, the number of cars getting through on each green signal phase would increase by a third.

This is a problem common throughout the ACT. And there are far too many traffic lights, many on intersections that don’t need them at all, or only at peak times. Their unco-ordination is breathtaking. Don’t get me started on red arrows that no longer turn off, even though there is no more oncoming traffic.

The biggest traffic problem on Flemington Road is NOT the single lane section on the approach to the Federal Highway, but that the intersection operates at only 75% capacity.

Here’s how it works:

There are two right-turn lanes into Northbourne Avenue, and the lights stay green longe enough for about 16 rows of cars (i.e. 32 cars).

BUT the second right-turn lane is only long enough to hold about rows of 8 cars. Once 8 rows of cars have gone through, the right hand lane stays empty because cars entering from the single lane can’t easily accelerate fast enough to fill both lanes. So instead of 32 cars getting through on the green signal, only 24 get through.

If the second right-turn lane was extended far enough back to accommodate another 8 rows of cars, the number of cars getting through on each green signal phase would increase by a third.

AmarooStu said :

Below road infrastructure is not logical for one of “Australia’s fastest growing regions”;
* Horse Park Drive is only 1 lane
* Flemington Road is only 1 lane (outside EPIC)
* Gungahlin Drive is backed up to Palmerston due to poor traffic light phasing at Sandford Street / Well Station Drive. Spoken to RoadsACT who says “no change to phasing”

I completely agree with these points, can’t speak for the other roads as I haven’t used them. Flemington needs to be made at least 2 lanes rather than just the 1.

The lights and Sandford are also horrible for the Gungahlin drive traffic.

AmarooStu said :

Sigh! Unless you leave around 715am, traffic is woeful trying to escape Gungahlin.

Below road infrastructure is not logical for one of “Australia’s fastest growing regions”;
* Horse Park Drive is only 1 lane
* Flemington Road is only 1 lane (outside EPIC)
* Gungahlin Drive is backed up to Palmerston due to poor traffic light phasing at Sandford Street / Well Station Drive. Spoken to RoadsACT who says “no change to phasing”
* Gundaroo Drive is only 1 lane leading up to the Barton Highway (apart from the roundabouts)
* Clarrie Hermes Drive is only 1 lane up to the Barton Highway

Meegan Fitzharris MLA kindly replied to a few Tweets a couple days ago – hope to hear of some progress.

http://news.domain.com.au/domain/real-estate-news/buyers-flock-to-new-gungahlin-suburbs-in-2014-20141220-128ti7.html

You have hit the nail on the head.

Once the tram is in place all your problems will be solved!

AmarooStu said :

Sigh! Unless you leave around 715am, traffic is woeful trying to escape Gungahlin.

Below road infrastructure is not logical for one of “Australia’s fastest growing regions”;
* Horse Park Drive is only 1 lane
* Flemington Road is only 1 lane (outside EPIC)
* Gungahlin Drive is backed up to Palmerston due to poor traffic light phasing at Sandford Street / Well Station Drive. Spoken to RoadsACT who says “no change to phasing”
* Gundaroo Drive is only 1 lane leading up to the Barton Highway (apart from the roundabouts)
* Clarrie Hermes Drive is only 1 lane up to the Barton Highway

Meegan Fitzharris MLA kindly replied to a few Tweets a couple days ago – hope to hear of some progress.

http://news.domain.com.au/domain/real-estate-news/buyers-flock-to-new-gungahlin-suburbs-in-2014-20141220-128ti7.html

Completely agree and I don’t live in Gungahlin! We have enough trouble just getting out of the ACT via Gundaroo and Horse Park Drive from Belconnen. It’s been a long time since they first mentioned the Barton Highway roundabout will be getting traffic lights too!

“What measures will be put in place when the light rail gets underway?”

I’d suggest your woes going anywhere near Flemington Rd/Northbourne are not going to be fixed and indeed will likely become much worse. The tram will take up an entire lane and they will need to make the tram more attractive than driving for it to be viable. Hence spending large amounts on increasing the traffic capacity of these roads is unlikely.

Yes, well, don’t ignore the huge white elephant in the room. It would suit me if Horse Park Drive was widened to supplement the Majura ring road, but Gunghalin’s problem now is that the rest of Canberra is likely to have conniptions if further infrastructure expenditure is redirected to Gungahlin to make the Civic-bound roads in Gungahlin more attractive than the tram.

Sigh! Unless you leave around 715am, traffic is woeful trying to escape Gungahlin.

Below road infrastructure is not logical for one of “Australia’s fastest growing regions”;
* Horse Park Drive is only 1 lane
* Flemington Road is only 1 lane (outside EPIC)
* Gungahlin Drive is backed up to Palmerston due to poor traffic light phasing at Sandford Street / Well Station Drive. Spoken to RoadsACT who says “no change to phasing”
* Gundaroo Drive is only 1 lane leading up to the Barton Highway (apart from the roundabouts)
* Clarrie Hermes Drive is only 1 lane up to the Barton Highway

Meegan Fitzharris MLA kindly replied to a few Tweets a couple days ago – hope to hear of some progress.

http://news.domain.com.au/domain/real-estate-news/buyers-flock-to-new-gungahlin-suburbs-in-2014-20141220-128ti7.html

I doubt the roads will be improved any time soon. In fact if the government spent money on roads and trams to Gungahlin I’d argue that that is really a big waste of money. So while Tuggeranong residents will complain about not getting a tram or a waste of money, it could be worse 🙂

That said everyone always wants everything. New block of land close to the city, then more roads and free parking. Its frustrating, but I get through my day knowing we are bucket loads better off than the average person.

I know the feeling. When I first moved to Canberra I lived in Gungahlin. The commute to the Barton/Capital Hill area would sometimes take me 50 minutes and I was leaving earlyish with an aim to get to work by 7.30-7.45am. Although, this was before the GDE was finished so maybe it wouldn’t be as bad at that time of morning now. Flemington Road always took ages though. Then there’s the funhouse that is Northbourne Avenue.

on a good day it takes me less than an hour to bus from Ngunnawal to the City. On a day like today, at least an hour and a quarter. Gungahlin is a prime example of poor planning and foresight.

Canberra Planning at its finest!

Put up all the houses as far away as possible, then worry about how everyone is going to get around.

Even if Gungahlin had some employment opportunities, people will inevitably end up with a house in one place and work somewhere else. The roads are full of everyone trying to get somewhere else a long way away in a small city of 350,000.

It’s bad now, what happens when we reach 500,000 before too long, and there is even talking of hitting 900,000.

The planners are literally asleep at the wheel. I doubt any of them use public transport. They probably get government cars.

the problem is that Gungahlin has no employment, so all the workers have to commute away in the morning, and commute home at night.

All the other town centres have employment, so there is less commuting.

it is also worse when it rains, when all the cyclists get scared of the water and drive to work.