$50 load ups in ACT pokies will be allowed - if it's recommended

chewy14 said :

This is the main thing to get out of your post. The fact that people do not seek help.

Instead of talking about bans, we should be talking about that number and how those people can be helped to help themselves.

And if they cannot be helped then the regulations should be aimed directly at preventing those people from gambling and placing more responsibility on gambling venues rather than blanket bans that always pander to the lowest common denominator.

You identify the really challenging issue in all of this. For successful reductions in the incidence of problem gambling to occur, it needs a strong commitment from gambling venues in particular to identify and seek to help these people.

But then, given the absolute addiction and reliance clubs have on gambling revenue, they are in a position where helping these people as they should may have a significant detrimental impact upon their business – hence they have a very strong incentive to turn a blind eye and ignore where possible what unfolds in front of their very eyes.

There is no simple answer to any of this – but everyone has to do better in this space, and that could start by a shift in the political rhetoric on both sides of politics.

ClubsACT has achieved significant political capture in this town on both sides of politics, which leaves any debate about serious reforms around gaming machines consistently being boiled down to a common denominator of ‘you can’t hurt the clubs’ (a trend reflected across Australia as well).

There needs to be far greater balance within the overall debate between the needs of the clubs (and Government as well in terms of tax revenue) and the need to make meaningful changes that will help those that are experiencing substantial harm from these machines.

As the failed Wilkie reforms showed (not arguing for one second they were good or bad reforms), there are substantial challenges provided to just having a proper informed debate by the immense power of the clubs and hotel sector, let alone actually trying to achieve meaningful reforms in this space.

rosscoact said :

Grimm said :

rosscoact said :

Grimm said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Yeah, how dare the gummint tell people what to do. Let’s abolish motor vehicle safety regulation, road rules, pharmaceutical approvals, gun controls, food standards, the police force and electrical regulation while we are at it!

What a pretty strawman.

No one is saying that we need no regulations and in fact this industry is already extremely heavily regulated.

What is being said is that ultimately people are responsible for their own lives and the consequences of their own decisions. There are multiple programs in place to help problem gamblers, if you’re not willing to avail yourself of them, who’s fault is it?

You can’t and shouldn’t try to rub out individual responsibility through legislation.

This is what the NRA says. The sad reality is that failures of individual responsibility sometimes have such serious adverse impacts on the individuals concerned AND their families (and in the case of guns, everybody else) that stronger regulation is required. I believe this to be the case with the brainless scam that is poker machines.

Gun control? Really, that’s your comparison?

Can’t remember the last time an individual took a poker machine and used it to go on a killing rampage.

Well, that and statistics from the ABS and a couple of other agencies show very clearly that the 1996 gun grab had no effect at all on the homicide rate, or the suicide rate. People just used other methods.

Really? That’s not what actual statistics say.

Example from Australian Government http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html , “Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”

That IS what the actual statistics say, if you bothered to look at them rather than just grab a convenient little snippet, you’d know that and feel silly for posting that. And even from that little snippet, we can see that the decline began well before 1996 and continued to decline at a steady rate until at least 2007. Thank you for proving my point.

The steady decline in the murder rate had begun well before 1996, and continued to decline at the same rate. The gun grab had no effect whatsoever on the murder rate. Suicides however continued to increase, and hanging became the much more popular method.

Guns don’t kill people. I have several. Not one of them has jumped up and murdered anybody.

And hell, look at NZ, where you can get just about anything. No mass shootings or disproportionate levels of gun related crime in general. Amazing that.

Anyway, the point being, legislating everything to pander to the lowest common denominator, or people who will do stupid things no matter what, only punishes or inconveniences the sensible and safe majority. Ban guns and people who want to commit murder will use knives. Ban pokies and problem gamblers will bet on flies crawling up a wall. If you try to idiot proof everything, nature just provides a better idiot.

Having worked in this area for a couple of decades on and off, honestly, perhaps you need to actually read the base data. Your contention and follow-up is totally incorrect and you yourself disprove your own point.

I have read the base data, repeatedly and very thoroughly. Have you?
The raw figures don’t lie, no matter how you choose to twist them and what words you like to put around them. Legislation had absolutely no statistically significant effect on an already downward trend. Not my fault if you don’t like that.

Grimm said :

rosscoact said :

Grimm said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Yeah, how dare the gummint tell people what to do. Let’s abolish motor vehicle safety regulation, road rules, pharmaceutical approvals, gun controls, food standards, the police force and electrical regulation while we are at it!

What a pretty strawman.

No one is saying that we need no regulations and in fact this industry is already extremely heavily regulated.

What is being said is that ultimately people are responsible for their own lives and the consequences of their own decisions. There are multiple programs in place to help problem gamblers, if you’re not willing to avail yourself of them, who’s fault is it?

You can’t and shouldn’t try to rub out individual responsibility through legislation.

This is what the NRA says. The sad reality is that failures of individual responsibility sometimes have such serious adverse impacts on the individuals concerned AND their families (and in the case of guns, everybody else) that stronger regulation is required. I believe this to be the case with the brainless scam that is poker machines.

Gun control? Really, that’s your comparison?

Can’t remember the last time an individual took a poker machine and used it to go on a killing rampage.

Well, that and statistics from the ABS and a couple of other agencies show very clearly that the 1996 gun grab had no effect at all on the homicide rate, or the suicide rate. People just used other methods.

Really? That’s not what actual statistics say.

Example from Australian Government http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html , “Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”

That IS what the actual statistics say, if you bothered to look at them rather than just grab a convenient little snippet, you’d know that and feel silly for posting that. And even from that little snippet, we can see that the decline began well before 1996 and continued to decline at a steady rate until at least 2007. Thank you for proving my point.

The steady decline in the murder rate had begun well before 1996, and continued to decline at the same rate. The gun grab had no effect whatsoever on the murder rate. Suicides however continued to increase, and hanging became the much more popular method.

Guns don’t kill people. I have several. Not one of them has jumped up and murdered anybody.

And hell, look at NZ, where you can get just about anything. No mass shootings or disproportionate levels of gun related crime in general. Amazing that.

Anyway, the point being, legislating everything to pander to the lowest common denominator, or people who will do stupid things no matter what, only punishes or inconveniences the sensible and safe majority. Ban guns and people who want to commit murder will use knives. Ban pokies and problem gamblers will bet on flies crawling up a wall. If you try to idiot proof everything, nature just provides a better idiot.

Having worked in this area for a couple of decades on and off, honestly, perhaps you need to actually read the base data. Your contention and follow-up is totally incorrect and you yourself disprove your own point.

rubaiyat said :

Only around 15 per cent of problem gamblers seek help.”

This is the main thing to get out of your post. The fact that people do not seek help.

Instead of talking about bans, we should be talking about that number and how those people can be helped to help themselves.

And if they cannot be helped then the regulations should be aimed directly at preventing those people from gambling and placing more responsibility on gambling venues rather than blanket bans that always pander to the lowest common denominator.

Grimm said :

rosscoact said :

Grimm said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Yeah, how dare the gummint tell people what to do. Let’s abolish motor vehicle safety regulation, road rules, pharmaceutical approvals, gun controls, food standards, the police force and electrical regulation while we are at it!

What a pretty strawman.

No one is saying that we need no regulations and in fact this industry is already extremely heavily regulated.

What is being said is that ultimately people are responsible for their own lives and the consequences of their own decisions. There are multiple programs in place to help problem gamblers, if you’re not willing to avail yourself of them, who’s fault is it?

You can’t and shouldn’t try to rub out individual responsibility through legislation.

This is what the NRA says. The sad reality is that failures of individual responsibility sometimes have such serious adverse impacts on the individuals concerned AND their families (and in the case of guns, everybody else) that stronger regulation is required. I believe this to be the case with the brainless scam that is poker machines.

Gun control? Really, that’s your comparison?

Can’t remember the last time an individual took a poker machine and used it to go on a killing rampage.

Well, that and statistics from the ABS and a couple of other agencies show very clearly that the 1996 gun grab had no effect at all on the homicide rate, or the suicide rate. People just used other methods.

Really? That’s not what actual statistics say.

Example from Australian Government http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html , “Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”

That IS what the actual statistics say, if you bothered to look at them rather than just grab a convenient little snippet, you’d know that and feel silly for posting that. And even from that little snippet, we can see that the decline began well before 1996 and continued to decline at a steady rate until at least 2007. Thank you for proving my point.

The steady decline in the murder rate had begun well before 1996, and continued to decline at the same rate. The gun grab had no effect whatsoever on the murder rate. Suicides however continued to increase, and hanging became the much more popular method.

Guns don’t kill people. I have several. Not one of them has jumped up and murdered anybody.

And hell, look at NZ, where you can get just about anything. No mass shootings or disproportionate levels of gun related crime in general. Amazing that.

Anyway, the point being, legislating everything to pander to the lowest common denominator, or people who will do stupid things no matter what, only punishes or inconveniences the sensible and safe majority. Ban guns and people who want to commit murder will use knives. Ban pokies and problem gamblers will bet on flies crawling up a wall. If you try to idiot proof everything, nature just provides a better idiot.

So where do you stand on legislating to make mandatory things like seat belts, airbags, electronic stability control and autonomous braking in motor vehicles?

rubaiyat said :

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Every single safety device is a measure to protect idiots from themselves.

Seatbelts, Airbags, Breathalysers and enforced speedlimits are prime examples.

But idiots do not just hurt themselves they hurt a wide circle of people around them. Their stupidity also feeds the worst in the people who prey on them.

“PROBLEM GAMBLERS AND POKER MACHINES

One in six people who play the pokies regularly has a serious addiction.

Problem gamblers lose around $21,000 each year. That’s one third of the average Australian salary.

Some poker machines can be played at extremely high intensity – a gambler could lose more than $1,500 in just one hour.

Young people (18-24 year olds) spend more on poker machines than any other age group. Many adult problem gamblers report having developed gambling problems during their teenage years (source: Delfabbro, P, Gambling Research Australia, A review of Australian Gambling Research, August 2008, p61).

Three-quarters of problem gamblers have problems with poker machines. It’s even higher for women – in 9 out of 10 cases poker machines are identified as the cause of problems for women (source: Delfabbro, P, August 2008, p67).”

The flow on affect is worse:

“PROBLEM GAMBLING

Some people can experience significant harm from gambling. Up to 500,000 Australians are at risk of becoming, or are, problem gamblers.

The social cost to the community of problem gambling is estimated to be at least $4.7 billion a year.

The actions of one problem gambler negatively impacts the lives of between five and 10 others. This means there are up to five million Australians who could be affected by problem gambling each year, including friends, family and employers of people with a gambling problem.

Only around 15 per cent of problem gamblers seek help.”

http://www.problemgambling.gov.au/facts/

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-problem-with-gambling-20141125-11tqhc.html

btw The comparison with gun control is doubly evil. Our Legislation against the most dangerous guns has been very effective The fact that the American NRA runs such a strong campaign against it and has even funded political parties in Australia to spread its evil message and water down the legislation, shows exactly how effective it is.

Thank you. BTW, I greatly admire your stamina and tenacity!

rosscoact said :

Grimm said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Yeah, how dare the gummint tell people what to do. Let’s abolish motor vehicle safety regulation, road rules, pharmaceutical approvals, gun controls, food standards, the police force and electrical regulation while we are at it!

What a pretty strawman.

No one is saying that we need no regulations and in fact this industry is already extremely heavily regulated.

What is being said is that ultimately people are responsible for their own lives and the consequences of their own decisions. There are multiple programs in place to help problem gamblers, if you’re not willing to avail yourself of them, who’s fault is it?

You can’t and shouldn’t try to rub out individual responsibility through legislation.

This is what the NRA says. The sad reality is that failures of individual responsibility sometimes have such serious adverse impacts on the individuals concerned AND their families (and in the case of guns, everybody else) that stronger regulation is required. I believe this to be the case with the brainless scam that is poker machines.

Gun control? Really, that’s your comparison?

Can’t remember the last time an individual took a poker machine and used it to go on a killing rampage.

Well, that and statistics from the ABS and a couple of other agencies show very clearly that the 1996 gun grab had no effect at all on the homicide rate, or the suicide rate. People just used other methods.

Really? That’s not what actual statistics say.

Example from Australian Government http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html , “Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”

That IS what the actual statistics say, if you bothered to look at them rather than just grab a convenient little snippet, you’d know that and feel silly for posting that. And even from that little snippet, we can see that the decline began well before 1996 and continued to decline at a steady rate until at least 2007. Thank you for proving my point.

The steady decline in the murder rate had begun well before 1996, and continued to decline at the same rate. The gun grab had no effect whatsoever on the murder rate. Suicides however continued to increase, and hanging became the much more popular method.

Guns don’t kill people. I have several. Not one of them has jumped up and murdered anybody.

And hell, look at NZ, where you can get just about anything. No mass shootings or disproportionate levels of gun related crime in general. Amazing that.

Anyway, the point being, legislating everything to pander to the lowest common denominator, or people who will do stupid things no matter what, only punishes or inconveniences the sensible and safe majority. Ban guns and people who want to commit murder will use knives. Ban pokies and problem gamblers will bet on flies crawling up a wall. If you try to idiot proof everything, nature just provides a better idiot.

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Every single safety device is a measure to protect idiots from themselves.

Seatbelts, Airbags, Breathalysers and enforced speedlimits are prime examples.

But idiots do not just hurt themselves they hurt a wide circle of people around them. Their stupidity also feeds the worst in the people who prey on them.

“PROBLEM GAMBLERS AND POKER MACHINES

One in six people who play the pokies regularly has a serious addiction.

Problem gamblers lose around $21,000 each year. That’s one third of the average Australian salary.

Some poker machines can be played at extremely high intensity – a gambler could lose more than $1,500 in just one hour.

Young people (18-24 year olds) spend more on poker machines than any other age group. Many adult problem gamblers report having developed gambling problems during their teenage years (source: Delfabbro, P, Gambling Research Australia, A review of Australian Gambling Research, August 2008, p61).

Three-quarters of problem gamblers have problems with poker machines. It’s even higher for women – in 9 out of 10 cases poker machines are identified as the cause of problems for women (source: Delfabbro, P, August 2008, p67).”

The flow on affect is worse:

“PROBLEM GAMBLING

Some people can experience significant harm from gambling. Up to 500,000 Australians are at risk of becoming, or are, problem gamblers.

The social cost to the community of problem gambling is estimated to be at least $4.7 billion a year.

The actions of one problem gambler negatively impacts the lives of between five and 10 others. This means there are up to five million Australians who could be affected by problem gambling each year, including friends, family and employers of people with a gambling problem.

Only around 15 per cent of problem gamblers seek help.”

http://www.problemgambling.gov.au/facts/

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-problem-with-gambling-20141125-11tqhc.html

btw The comparison with gun control is doubly evil. Our Legislation against the most dangerous guns has been very effective The fact that the American NRA runs such a strong campaign against it and has even funded political parties in Australia to spread its evil message and water down the legislation, shows exactly how effective it is.

rosscoact said :

Grimm said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

chewy14 said :

Nilrem said :

Grimm said :

How about we just let people make their own decisions on what they spend their money on, and how much they spend? This poker machine over regulation is another case of pandering to the lowest common denominator and protecting idiots from themselves.

Yeah, how dare the gummint tell people what to do. Let’s abolish motor vehicle safety regulation, road rules, pharmaceutical approvals, gun controls, food standards, the police force and electrical regulation while we are at it!

What a pretty strawman.

No one is saying that we need no regulations and in fact this industry is already extremely heavily regulated.

What is being said is that ultimately people are responsible for their own lives and the consequences of their own decisions. There are multiple programs in place to help problem gamblers, if you’re not willing to avail yourself of them, who’s fault is it?

You can’t and shouldn’t try to rub out individual responsibility through legislation.

This is what the NRA says. The sad reality is that failures of individual responsibility sometimes have such serious adverse impacts on the individuals concerned AND their families (and in the case of guns, everybody else) that stronger regulation is required. I believe this to be the case with the brainless scam that is poker machines.

Gun control? Really, that’s your comparison?

Can’t remember the last time an individual took a poker machine and used it to go on a killing rampage.

Well, that and statistics from the ABS and a couple of other agencies show very clearly that the 1996 gun grab had no effect at all on the homicide rate, or the suicide rate. People just used other methods.

Really? That’s not what actual statistics say.

Example from Australian Government http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html , “Over the past 18 years (1 July 1989 to 30 June 2007), the rate* of homicide incidents decreased from 1.9 in 1990-91 and 1992-93 to the second-lowest recorded rate, of 1.3, in 2006-07. *rate per 100,000 population.”

Yep. Guns kill people.

Perhaps we need a Xenophon candidate for next year’s ACT “festival of democracy”.

In the meantime, the ALP flirtation with libertarianism is fun to watch (and oh so surprising).