Mixed reaction to Libs' plan for Gungahlin, Tuggeranong hospitals

wildturkeycanoe said :

The walk in centres are nothing more that what the first aid guy at a football match can do. They are a totally inefficient way of administering primary health care.

For anything more than a splinter,the walk-in centres just push you through to the ED. I know because I have been there many times in the last few years, usually with advice to go straight to ED or my GP.

Many times? You must be very accident prone. Or perhaps you were repeatedly seeking services that are not within their scope.

I’ve only needed the walk-in centre twice since they opened. The first time, I was in and out in no time compared to the ED, with medication and all. It was great. Second time, it was just after closing so I had to divert to the ED anyway, a very long wait for a cut that they said the walk-in centre would have better and quicker handled.

virgil99 said :

Lots of odd information in here.
Calvary does not have a “fully fledged trauma ED”. No surgeons on site. No acute orthopaedics. No plastics. Transfer ~ 5% of their patients to TCH.

Like I said it doesn’t have all that TCH has though my info is they do have orthopaedics, and on occasion paramedics have taken patients there that really needed TCH. But if they only need to transfer 5% of patients as you say, they must have enough to work with.

And if they need more, better to expand Calvary than to spread resources thinner opening up Level 4-5 “EDs”

Mordd / Chris Richards said :

ungruntled said :

“No different to Federal Labor mediscare there.”
Mordd, you have to be joking. Mediscare? Really?
Have you read ANY Australian history over the last 45 years?
The scary part of what was being said about the dismantelling of Medicare was that it was true.
Whether you believe in government provided medical care to the general populace or not, the attack on its provision is historical fact.

I will give you that Federal labor had a basis in fact for mediscare, but then massively exxagerated that basis and used it to drive a campaign driven by FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) without much regards to actual facts. The Liberals have now taken it a stop further, and ditched the initial basis for fact and are just making up claims and using FUD with them.

If what you say is true then the Liberals have the election in the bag.

Sorry about the typos in prev post.
Of note, away from the anecdotal stories, how many people know what the waiting times are for TCH and Calvary. The “worst in the country” figures are comparing states and are old data. Hardly valid, when small rural hospitals tend to report almost zero wait times. Comparing hospitals, the ACT hospitals do fine. Think you’ll find the median wait times for both are <50 minutes. Compare that to your GP or your dentist.

Lots of odd information in here.
Calvary does not have a “fully fledged trauma ED”. No surgeons on site. No acute orthopaedics. No plastics. Transfer ~ 5% of their patients to TCH.
Few thoughts
How to staff these – Both hospitals struggle to recruit “mid-level” doctors. Can’t afford specialists there…
Alternative is to have GP’s…..that will be fine……but, 3 issues appear.
1. It’s not a hospital. – Won’t fit any definition.
2. It’s not an emergency department….see 1.
3. It’s an urgent care clinic, funded by the government. It will take very little work form the hospital ED’s, It will take a lot of work from the local GP’s and remove any incentive for them to offer out of hours care. Also the overnight Home Doctor Service.

ungruntled said :

“No different to Federal Labor mediscare there.”
Mordd, you have to be joking. Mediscare? Really?
Have you read ANY Australian history over the last 45 years?
The scary part of what was being said about the dismantelling of Medicare was that it was true.
Whether you believe in government provided medical care to the general populace or not, the attack on its provision is historical fact.

I will give you that Federal labor had a basis in fact for mediscare, but then massively exxagerated that basis and used it to drive a campaign driven by FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) without much regards to actual facts. The Liberals have now taken it a stop further, and ditched the initial basis for fact and are just making up claims and using FUD with them.

dungfungus said :

JC said :

creative_canberran said :

It’s been clarified that these ‘local EDs’ will only be equipped to serve level 4 and 5 cases (the two lowest). Because of this the Emergency Medicine professional body is warning they shouldn’t even be called EDs. Level 5 cases are generally minor things like prescriptions and results review out of hours. Level 4 deals with signs of food poisoning, sprains, lacerations and other severe discomfort. For level 4 cases there is the potentially for negative outcomes and even threat to life down the track, but assessment and treatment isn’t required within an hour, and can be put off even longer. More to the point these sorts of things are already dealt with at the walk-in centres.

So in essence providing the same service as the walk in centres, but with Doctors rather than nurses looking after patients. Sounds a waste of money big time. Just open some more walk in centres, but guess the libs wouldn’t want to do that as it may be an admission the walk in centres are working which is contrary to their election narrative.

So even though you are living in remote Gungahlin you are happy to wait a week to see your GP or drive into Calvary ED to get in the triage queue?
You must really hate the Liberals.

The walk in centres are nothing more that what the first aid guy at a football match can do. They are a totally inefficient way of administering primary health care.

For anything more than a splinter,the walk-in centres just push you through to the ED. I know because I have been there many times in the last few years, usually with advice to go straight to ED or my GP. They are not a triage centre, you could get as much help by Googling your symptoms on your phone [which is actually what they did once to find the correct treatment while I was there].

JC said :

creative_canberran said :

It’s been clarified that these ‘local EDs’ will only be equipped to serve level 4 and 5 cases (the two lowest). Because of this the Emergency Medicine professional body is warning they shouldn’t even be called EDs. Level 5 cases are generally minor things like prescriptions and results review out of hours. Level 4 deals with signs of food poisoning, sprains, lacerations and other severe discomfort. For level 4 cases there is the potentially for negative outcomes and even threat to life down the track, but assessment and treatment isn’t required within an hour, and can be put off even longer. More to the point these sorts of things are already dealt with at the walk-in centres.

So in essence providing the same service as the walk in centres, but with Doctors rather than nurses looking after patients. Sounds a waste of money big time. Just open some more walk in centres, but guess the libs wouldn’t want to do that as it may be an admission the walk in centres are working which is contrary to their election narrative.

So even though you are living in remote Gungahlin you are happy to wait a week to see your GP or drive into Calvary ED to get in the triage queue?
You must really hate the Liberals.

The walk in centres are nothing more that what the first aid guy at a football match can do. They are a totally inefficient way of administering primary health care.

creative_canberran said :

It’s been clarified that these ‘local EDs’ will only be equipped to serve level 4 and 5 cases (the two lowest). Because of this the Emergency Medicine professional body is warning they shouldn’t even be called EDs. Level 5 cases are generally minor things like prescriptions and results review out of hours. Level 4 deals with signs of food poisoning, sprains, lacerations and other severe discomfort. For level 4 cases there is the potentially for negative outcomes and even threat to life down the track, but assessment and treatment isn’t required within an hour, and can be put off even longer. More to the point these sorts of things are already dealt with at the walk-in centres.

So in essence providing the same service as the walk in centres, but with Doctors rather than nurses looking after patients. Sounds a waste of money big time. Just open some more walk in centres, but guess the libs wouldn’t want to do that as it may be an admission the walk in centres are working which is contrary to their election narrative.

Garfield said :

As for people dying due to “confusion”, as alleged by Gallagher, the paramedics will know where to take different types of emergency patients and even if someone turns up at their local ED, they will have immediate care that’s greater than can be provided by an ambulance and they will have it sooner. Thus its more likely these new hospitals will save rather than cost lives. Calvary doesn’t provide the full range of hospital services so there are currently patients that need to be moved from there to Woden, just as will happen with some patients with these new hospitals. The key thing is that more people will be treated away from the main hospital, freeing it up to get to the more urgent cases faster.

There’s been cases where people have been taken to Calvary instead of Canberra by accident by paramedics. And Calavary despite not having all that Canberra offers, is still a fully equipped trauma ED.

It’s been clarified that these ‘local EDs’ will only be equipped to serve level 4 and 5 cases (the two lowest). Because of this the Emergency Medicine professional body is warning they shouldn’t even be called EDs. Level 5 cases are generally minor things like prescriptions and results review out of hours. Level 4 deals with signs of food poisoning, sprains, lacerations and other severe discomfort. For level 4 cases there is the potentially for negative outcomes and even threat to life down the track, but assessment and treatment isn’t required within an hour, and can be put off even longer. More to the point these sorts of things are already dealt with at the walk-in centres.

“No different to Federal Labor mediscare there.”

Mordd, you have to be joking. Mediscare? Really?
Have you read ANY Australian history over the last 45 years?
The scary part of what was being said about the dismantelling of Medicare was that it was true.
Whether you believe in government provided medical care to the general populace or not, the attack on its provision is historical fact.

rommeldog56 said :

pink little birdie said :

There is a large chunk of late night medicine that is “I need medical attention but it’s not an emergency”
Last time I tried for CALMS I still ended up waiting 2 hours after my appointment time to see the Dr and the next door Calvery emergency (literally 10 metres away) would have been faster.

So, why would even consider going to the Emergency Department if u can be seen by a Doctor elsewhere. Thats one of the problems with Canberra’s EDs.

Any initiative that can take the load off EDs is good, depending on cost of course.

I didn’t I went to CALMS (Canberra After Hours Locum Medical Service) Emergency is for Emergencies. However at the time the CALMS in Belconnen was at Calvery Hospital using the same entrance as the emergency (emergency on the left CALMS on the right) I kept my CALMS appointment but the emergency room was very empty because it was the middle of the night and Calvery is less busy in the middle of the night. CALMS was still running very late I could have been in bed as opposed to lying on the chair there for 2 hours.

pink little birdie said :

There is a large chunk of late night medicine that is “I need medical attention but it’s not an emergency”
Last time I tried for CALMS I still ended up waiting 2 hours after my appointment time to see the Dr and the next door Calvery emergency (literally 10 metres away) would have been faster.

So, why would even consider going to the Emergency Department if u can be seen by a Doctor elsewhere. Thats one of the problems with Canberra’s EDs. Any initiative that can take the load off EDs is good, depending on cost of course.

So basically these new places would look like a slightly better version of the the primary health centres in Woden and Belconnen making them 24 hours as well. They have imaging and nurses as well as Dr’s. There is a large chunk of late night medicine that is “I need medical attention but it’s not an emergency”
Last time I tried for CALMS I still ended up waiting 2 hours after my appointment time to see the Dr and the next door Calvery emergency (literally 10 metres away) would have been faster.

Mordd / Chris Richards said :

creative_canberran said :

It’s a strange idea that will end up before the Coroner I bet.

For people talking about travel times to the ED, I don’t get your point. If you have a medical issue that urgently requires the ED, then you call an ambulance. You know those big things with flashing lights that can speed and go through intersection when you can’t. Even with an ED at Tuggeranong, if you try to make it there yourself for a cardiac arrest, you’ll only have a slim chance of survival, versus an ambulance going to you.

If your issues isn’t that severe, then you have the walk in clinics, CALMS, your GP, or you can go to the ED where triage will dictate you wait at least an hour anyway to see anyone.

gooterz said :

Does that mean we need to put operating theaters in these new hospitals too?

Unless these local EDs have their own imaging departments, operating theatres and specialist paediatric gear, then you’ll have patients being bussed all over town. Or you’ll have ambulances taking patients to the little EDs when they really need the big ones. It’s going to be a mess that divides resources and causes confusion.

Basically this policy exists for two reasons. One is the Liberals platform for this election is all about health, so merit or not, affordable or not, they’ll announce health policies. Secondly the Liberals have always been against the walk-in centres, opening these mini-EDs will create doctors jobs which the AMA wants, and will close down he walk-in centres.

Far too much truth and common sense in this ^ post. It didn’t occur to me though, the Libs will shut down the nurse walk in clinics with this won’t they? That would be really bad, they have taken a lot of pressure of the existing E.D’s, getting rid of them would not be smart at all. 🙁

So nurse led walk in clinics take pressure off the Canberra Hospital ED, but having small ED’s in their place with doctors in addition to nurses will add pressure to it? Think about it. It has to be the case that we receive better health care when doctors and nurses work together, not when they work separately.

There are currently people turning up at the nurse led clinics who have to be moved on to the ED because there are no doctors there. That’s why the Woden walk in clinic closed, because it had to refer so many people to the ED that it was increasing pressure on the system. Having the small ED’s will mean more people can be treated away from Woden, meaning less pressure on the primary ED.

As for people dying due to “confusion”, as alleged by Gallagher, the paramedics will know where to take different types of emergency patients and even if someone turns up at their local ED, they will have immediate care that’s greater than can be provided by an ambulance and they will have it sooner. Thus its more likely these new hospitals will save rather than cost lives. Calvary doesn’t provide the full range of hospital services so there are currently patients that need to be moved from there to Woden, just as will happen with some patients with these new hospitals. The key thing is that more people will be treated away from the main hospital, freeing it up to get to the more urgent cases faster.

Also, from a quick chat with a Liberal candidate on the weekend, I don’t think that the Belconnen walk in clinic will close, so the Gungahlin hospital will be in addition to Calvary and the walk in clinic on the north side.

creative_canberran said :

It’s a strange idea that will end up before the Coroner I bet.

For people talking about travel times to the ED, I don’t get your point. If you have a medical issue that urgently requires the ED, then you call an ambulance. You know those big things with flashing lights that can speed and go through intersection when you can’t. Even with an ED at Tuggeranong, if you try to make it there yourself for a cardiac arrest, you’ll only have a slim chance of survival, versus an ambulance going to you.

If your issues isn’t that severe, then you have the walk in clinics, CALMS, your GP, or you can go to the ED where triage will dictate you wait at least an hour anyway to see anyone.

gooterz said :

Does that mean we need to put operating theaters in these new hospitals too?

Unless these local EDs have their own imaging departments, operating theatres and specialist paediatric gear, then you’ll have patients being bussed all over town. Or you’ll have ambulances taking patients to the little EDs when they really need the big ones. It’s going to be a mess that divides resources and causes confusion.

Basically this policy exists for two reasons. One is the Liberals platform for this election is all about health, so merit or not, affordable or not, they’ll announce health policies. Secondly the Liberals have always been against the walk-in centres, opening these mini-EDs will create doctors jobs which the AMA wants, and will close down he walk-in centres.

Far too much truth and common sense in this ^ post. It didn’t occur to me though, the Libs will shut down the nurse walk in clinics with this won’t they? That would be really bad, they have taken a lot of pressure of the existing E.D’s, getting rid of them would not be smart at all. 🙁

It’s a strange idea that will end up before the Coroner I bet.

For people talking about travel times to the ED, I don’t get your point. If you have a medical issue that urgently requires the ED, then you call an ambulance. You know those big things with flashing lights that can speed and go through intersection when you can’t. Even with an ED at Tuggeranong, if you try to make it there yourself for a cardiac arrest, you’ll only have a slim chance of survival, versus an ambulance going to you.

If your issues isn’t that severe, then you have the walk in clinics, CALMS, your GP, or you can go to the ED where triage will dictate you wait at least an hour anyway to see anyone.

gooterz said :

Does that mean we need to put operating theaters in these new hospitals too?

Unless these local EDs have their own imaging departments, operating theatres and specialist paediatric gear, then you’ll have patients being bussed all over town. Or you’ll have ambulances taking patients to the little EDs when they really need the big ones. It’s going to be a mess that divides resources and causes confusion.

Basically this policy exists for two reasons. One is the Liberals platform for this election is all about health, so merit or not, affordable or not, they’ll announce health policies. Secondly the Liberals have always been against the walk-in centres, opening these mini-EDs will create doctors jobs which the AMA wants, and will close down he walk-in centres.

JC said :

Raging Tempest said :

You have no idea mordd. It’s nearly 15 mins from Gowrie to Canberra hospital in reasonable traffic, significantly longer if you’re in the wilds of lanyon.

Think you will find he was quoting the Liberal party statement that the Canberra hospitals are further away than many rural locations. So think you mean the Liberal Party has not idea.

Anyway this is just silly. As anyone who has been to Calvery knows even that hospital offers very limited services so if you are in a bad bad way they take you to Woden anyway. For the cost quoted these ‘hospital’s’ will be even more basic in way of services than Calvery, so what is the point? They will be just glorified triage units.

Even allowing for 30 mins to get to Woden or Calvary hospital from the outer points, that’s still way better than what most regional residents deal with, which is the whole point I was making. Even if Lanyon residents might take 45 mins to get to Woden, that still doesn’t compare to the 2, 3, 4+ hours many regional residents have to drive to get to their nearest hospital. I am sorry my 15 mins was probably a bit exaggerated, that’s my bad, but that’s missing the main point as JC points out.

Raging Tempest said :

You have no idea mordd. It’s nearly 15 mins from Gowrie to Canberra hospital in reasonable traffic, significantly longer if you’re in the wilds of lanyon.

Think you will find he was quoting the Liberal party statement that the Canberra hospitals are further away than many rural locations. So think you mean the Liberal Party has not idea.

Anyway this is just silly. As anyone who has been to Calvery knows even that hospital offers very limited services so if you are in a bad bad way they take you to Woden anyway. For the cost quoted these ‘hospital’s’ will be even more basic in way of services than Calvery, so what is the point? They will be just glorified triage units.

How does this get titled “mixed reaction” when the only public comment mentioned in opposition to the plan is from ACT Labor Senator Katy Gallagher, who as health minister presided over increased waiting times and a data scandal? On that basis every policy released by a major party would be to a mixed reaction when their opponents come out against it.

Mordd / Chris Richards said :

At most Belco or Tuggers people have maybe a 15 minute drive at best to get to the current nearest hospital.

Whilst going in the opposite direction to the peak flow of traffic in the afternoon, it once took me more than 30 minutes to go from west belconnen to the Calvary hospital. If you aren’t being dropped off to emergency but drive yourself or are taking kids like I was, you then have the walk all the way from the multi-storey carpark to the ED, which ads probably another 10 minutes depending on what your ailment is. You can’t just leave your car outside the ED because there are seldom any vacant parks whatsoever. So, for moderately serious emergencies, DIY is much more time consuming than calling an ambulance, but you don’t want to tie up paramedics with a non-life threatening condition either. Gungahlin to Calvary in peak traffic would easily be a 30 minute plus trip, likewise from the southern end of ACT to Canberra hospital. I can see the need for a walk in centre style hospital for both ends of town and would be happy to see my rates going towards that than a useless transport system that not make any improvements to transit times from what they are now. They have definitely confirmed my vote in October.

You have no idea mordd. It’s nearly 15 mins from Gowrie to Canberra hospital in reasonable traffic, significantly longer if you’re in the wilds of lanyon.

“At the moment some Gungahlin and Tuggeranong residents have to drive further for emergency hospital services than many residents in regional Australia.”

That statement is just rubbish. Many regional residents face a 1-8+ hour drive for different hospital services, depending on what is required. At most Belco or Tuggers people have maybe a 15 minute drive at best to get to the current nearest hospital. Talk about massive exaggeration and spin from the ACT Liberals. No different to Federal Labor mediscare there.

gooterz said :

Does that mean we need to put operating theaters in these new hospitals too?

Who knows. Probably not. Just another brain fart of an idea coming from ACT political parties in run up to ACT LA election in October. I wonder if anyone is keeping tabs on which party is offering what – and most importantly, the respective aggregate cost of those promises. Its going to be a mega expensive 5 weeks or so for ACT Ratepayers !

Does that mean we need to put operating theaters in these new hospitals too?