Reducing Indigenous over-representation in the justice system

One big issue is generational poverty. It is hard to finish school if your parents didn’t. LIkewise gettinga job, buying a house etc. These things are normal for most of us. But if noone in your circle acts like this, it is very hard (and unusual) to suddenly decide to finish school and get a job.

fgzk said :

I understand why its so important to stay in school, get a job, buy a house, work all your life building up stuff and die leaving a legacy for your children. What I don’t understand is why we can’t except that there might be another way to live. There might be other ways to view our time in this body. There might be other ways to view the land we walk on beside its cash value or what can be earned from it. Why is it so hard to accept another view? Why does it so threaten our society? Why do we actively want to destroy/imprison all other world views other than our western Christian culture? What is it that scares us so much about aboriginal culture? Why do we demand that it be abandoned in favour of getting a job, buying a house and getting stuff?

You pose some interesting questions here. I wonder whether the domination of some cultures by others (eg western cultures dominating indigenous cultures) is more a symptom of the culture itself, due to the way it has been formed. There are plenty of individuals who would wish for cultures to be preserved and studied, and yet this seems to be a real struggle. In terms of philosophy I’m well out of my depth here, but I wonder at what point the culture of a collective group of individuals starts to form its own system, outside the control of an individual (or even a subset of individuals).

Back to earth, and many of the issues faced by local indigenous people still seem to me to be more aligned with those of poverty than of race itself. But to get back to fgzk’s questions:

“What is it that scares us so much about aboriginal culture? Why do we demand that it be abandoned in favour of getting a job, buying a house and getting stuff?”

I wonder whether it is possible for the two to co-exist in their original forms – history suggests not. I don’t think the issue is that people are ‘scared’ of Aboriginal culture, more that they don’t know how it could co-exist with modern western culture in a way that is positive and meaningful. Personally, I’ve got no issue if someone doesn’t want a job and house, and can support how they choose to live. But I do have an issue with ensuring children growing up in such an environment still get adequate health care, and are afforded opportunities to make their own choices as and when the time is right.

fgzk said :

I understand why its so important to stay in school, get a job, buy a house, work all your life building up stuff and die leaving a legacy for your children. What I don’t understand is why we can’t except that there might be another way to live. There might be other ways to view our time in this body. There might be other ways to view the land we walk on beside its cash value or what can be earned from it. Why is it so hard to accept another view? Why does it so threaten our society? Why do we actively want to destroy/imprison all other world views other than our western Christian culture? What is it that scares us so much about aboriginal culture? Why do we demand that it be abandoned in favour of getting a job, buying a house and getting stuff?

If respect is a two way street, then why is it that we can’t see how our own actions and beliefs are so deeply disrespectful?

Well fgzk, that all sounds reasonable, but how about you put some meat on your argument instead of talking in abstractions. This is/was a thread about crime. Does the ‘other’ value system you speak of view theft, drugs and violence as acceptable? This is generally why people are being locked up.

And I would go further and postulate that these attitudes and feeling if isolation combined with already being in a lower socio-economic group might lead to depression, alcoholism and other substance abuse, compounding their difficulties in getting jobs, education, housing, improved health etc and might lead to higher suicide rates and probably an increased likelihood that they’ll turn to crime.

I would hope that the ACT Gov is suggesting an inquiry as to why all this is happening (if it is, but it seems to be because we have an overrepresentation of Indigenous Australians in our justice system)

I understand why its so important to stay in school, get a job, buy a house, work all your life building up stuff and die leaving a legacy for your children. What I don’t understand is why we can’t except that there might be another way to live. There might be other ways to view our time in this body. There might be other ways to view the land we walk on beside its cash value or what can be earned from it. Why is it so hard to accept another view? Why does it so threaten our society? Why do we actively want to destroy/imprison all other world views other than our western Christian culture? What is it that scares us so much about aboriginal culture? Why do we demand that it be abandoned in favour of getting a job, buying a house and getting stuff?

If respect is a two way street, then why is it that we can’t see how our own actions and beliefs are so deeply disrespectful?

What is different about access for Indigenous people in the ACT? I would say a big difference is the general community’s attitude towards them.

Imagine if everyone had the same attitude towards Indigenous people that Special G does: which appears to be “I am actively not going to treat them any better than anyone else because they are no different and I think they are getting it too good anyway”

Result: you are already treating them differently and chances are you are increasing their apparent (and probably actual) isolation within Canberra.

Now imagine if they treated that way when applying for jobs, going to the doctor, getting scripts filled at the chemist, looking to rent a house, attending school, etc.

Non-Indigenous Australians and especially those of European background have it far easier – we don’t have to deal with this sort of racism on a day to day basis. And it is racism, you can tell when people start sentences with “I’m not a racist but…”

And it appears from some of the quotes on this forum that attitudes here in Canberra are no different from those in the rest of the country.

Kuku said :

AJC = Aboriginal Justice Centre.
Perhaps you need a course in whats out there to try and assist you???

How hard is it for you to answer the basic question? If you don’t know then feel free to say you don’t know.

What basic differences are there in the ACT between the welfare available to indigenous and non-indigenous persons?

Instead of saying someone should do a course, which you appear to be an expert in, just answer the question, or people, including me, will continue to believe that your stories and judgments are conceived in a time that is 10 years out of date.

I was making reference to things which would cause more aboriginals to make the choice to commit offences bringing them into the justice system – the topic – which I think you may have failed to mention in any of your posts – try going to the top and reading it again.

Canberra has access to health, schooling, govt services, welfare services, community organisations/programs, housing, parks, employment.

so try again.

vg said :

No proof ‘they’ were here first? You are kidding, please tell me. How about the records that non-indigenous explorers have of our country right back to the mid 1600s or so where the aforementioned explorers reported inhabitants that were here.

And what, precisely, do those records say about anybody being here “first”?

Interesting to see the shallow-thinkers accusing others of being “ill-informed”.

AJC = Aboriginal Justice Centre.
Perhaps you need a course in whats out there to try and assist you???

ok then I’ll bite – what access is different for the indigenous community in Canberra as opposed to every one else.

Doesn’t matter what your background is:

Stay in school, get a job etc

or drop out, live your life between breaking into houses and holidaying at the AMC.

School is free.

“the AJC”

Why would the Australian Jockey Club have anything to do with it, and I’m with Special G here…and was around in the early 90s in the industry. The most important part of cross cultural training is the 2 way aspect of it. Sadly much of today’s cross cultural training is 1 way

CraigT: the Pauline Hanson of RiotAct.

My stories are exactly that, mine to tell. And they don’t all come from the early 90’s, but later. I don’t have the right to tell what happened to others. Talk to those who matter, the AJC, the liaison people, HR, you may be surprised.

You may not have seen it. It doesn’t mean it hasn’t and doesn’t occur. Don’t negate or assume what is being said because you haven’t personally experienced it Special G.

And it’s the difference between being a so-so cop to one that really does make a difference.

“I’m talking about Canberra where everyone here has the same access as everyone else.”

Maybe its the system defining, then finding its own solution to its own problems.

You could start with the above assumption. Rather than deciding that access is the same you might like to ask the indigenous representatives. They might have a different view. A view from actual experience.

Kuku – again talking about Policing in the early 90’s – things are a little different now and I have never seen anything like what you mention.

I again ask you to come up with some useful solution to the reason more indigenous members of our community are committing crimes. I’m not talking about remote communities – I’m talking about Canberra where everyone here has the same access as everyone else.

Sandpiper said :

A couple of the reasons I recall from my (now rather distant studies) was over-policing of indigenous Australians and the instructions to plead guilty in many cases. Police find crime where they look for it and of course the kind of defence a middle/upper class Australian can buy will be different from that recieved by young and vulnerable defendants. When you combine class/poverty issues with cultural differences (indigenous are more likely to congregate out of doors for instance), lack of education and opportunies, role models and differences in policing and legal representation it is not that hard to see how differences can manifest and be continued from one generation to another.

I also think it worth pointing out that Indigenous Australians (both Aboriginal & Torres Straight Islanders) originally had their own means of managing and handing on their cultural expectations and these often conflicted with white expectations. The culture that Indigenous Australians used was virtually destroyed by institutionalisation and the stolen generations. This lead to new generations of Indigenous Australians who no longer possess their traditional cultural disciplines and it must be remembered that these actions perpetrated on these peoples constitute what we now see are crimes of humanity. I think this is worth remembering to bring some balance to the issue of ethical judgement when considering the morality of behaviours of the most uneducated, unfortunate people.

It is also worth considering that Aboriginals may well be over represented as highly successful people as I can think of many actors, singers, dancers, academics, artists, musicians, politicians and sports persons of Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander descent so there is clearly much capacity for overcoming the odds faced by these people.

Some interesting pages from a quick google search:

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/
http://www.oodgeroo.qut.edu.au/academic_resources/academicpape/explanations.jsp
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications.aspx (just put Indigenous into the search box to get results specific to this topic)

+1

And Special G – If police are going to treat their own like that what hope does the average Indigenous person have – bring back cross cultural training – you certainly need it.

VG – Seen the pictures. Looked like an awesome trip and probably went a long way to building bridges.

CraigT said :

“They were here first”

Fantasy. There are no records to prove any such thing, even if you did believe in such a thing is hereditary birth rights.

The fact that I was here “first” before my vietnamese neighbours is not a valid reason for me to squeal for preferential treatment from the government. It’s an offensive and a very 19th century concept.

Children should be protected regardless of their ethnicity just the same as criminals should be locked up regardless of their ethnicity.
If there’s a valid argument for a race-based approach to law-and-order, then the same argument applies to a race-based approach to child protection.

Sorry for the delay in replying. I had to check it wasn’t April 1 after reading the above.

No proof ‘they’ were here first? You are kidding, please tell me. How about the records that non-indigenous explorers have of our country right back to the mid 1600s or so where the aforementioned explorers reported inhabitants that were here.

I’m mentioning nothing of hereditary birth rights but even the most casual visitor to a genuine indigenous community (not Redfern) in a far flung place demonstrates considerable lack of services and neglect not present in the larger urban environments. The same people who live in these communities aren’t ‘squealing’ for preferential treatment. Many or most aren’t saying a word. Those that do generally are asking for equal treatment.

Get off you ill-informed ass and visit one of these communities. If your opinion is still the same when you get back then you’ll just prove to us that you’re as ignorant and stupid as you’re proving right now. Racists like you need to be sat on their asses every now and again

distant dog house, there’s some genuine stupidity on this site, innit…

Fantasy. There are no records to prove any such thing

so, you’ve never heard of ‘archeology’?? let alone ‘anthropology’..?

and it isn’t ‘preferential’ treatment indigenous australians are after, but i’ll let you work out what it might actually be…

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

You’re an angry bugger, aren’t you.

Not the crispest lettuce in the fridge, are you?

Switch to decaf. You seem so paranoid about always being right, I fear you’re going to have some sort of attack.

“They were here first”

Fantasy. There are no records to prove any such thing, even if you did believe in such a thing is hereditary birth rights.

The fact that I was here “first” before my vietnamese neighbours is not a valid reason for me to squeal for preferential treatment from the government. It’s an offensive and a very 19th century concept.

Children should be protected regardless of their ethnicity just the same as criminals should be locked up regardless of their ethnicity.
If there’s a valid argument for a race-based approach to law-and-order, then the same argument applies to a race-based approach to child protection.

CraigT said :

Whose country? “traditional owners” of what?

I’ve been in this country longer than the majority of “aboriginals” and I find the whole “first people” crap to be elitist and offensive. And racist. And stupid.

Despite 40 years of very serious spending on aboriginal programs of every description, aboriginal incarceration rates are going up, health outcomes have not improved, infant mortality is still a disgrace, and the offensive “us versus them” rubbish propagated by the demented lefties and their pet aboriginals is divisive and destructive and as a direct result of that, most australians treat aboriginals with nothing but contempt.

Clearly, 40 years of race-based policies have achieved nothing. Paying aborigines welfare to sit on their arses in what are still reservations (even if we don’t call them that anymore) prevents them from learning any marketable skills. Filling their heads full of grievance-politics encourages them to treat the law with contempt which results in them suffering a vicious circle of recurring contacts with the criminal justice system.

The solution? Stop treating aborigines as if they weren’t humans. Stop treating them as if they were some sort of endangered species of wildlife. If they want money, they should chase work. To chase work, you have to move to the cities. If they won’t send their kids to school, remove their kids from them, and stop bleating about “stolen generations” and “first nations” myths and all the other politics of divisiveness because it has quite demonstrably helped nobody.

Having recently returned from a week and a bit on an island in NE Arnhem Land I can say I did learn one very relevant thing.

The person who wrote the above wouldn’t know shit from clay. They’re known in some circles as first people because they were here first. If they won’t send their kids to school remove them? Champion that would never happen to a white family so why do it to an indigenous one.

And, before you ask, I’m not a leftie, and I’ve worked very, very practically in the justice system for over 20 years….and not on the crooks’ side.

40 years of ‘serious’ spending? F me, you have no idea

You’re an angry bugger, aren’t you.

Not the crispest lettuce in the fridge, are you?

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

I’ve been in this country longer than the majority of “aboriginals”

CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME

WTF? maybe it’s just me but you’ll have to explain this one.

A couple of the reasons I recall from my (now rather distant studies) was over-policing of indigenous Australians and the instructions to plead guilty in many cases. Police find crime where they look for it and of course the kind of defence a middle/upper class Australian can buy will be different from that recieved by young and vulnerable defendants. When you combine class/poverty issues with cultural differences (indigenous are more likely to congregate out of doors for instance), lack of education and opportunies, role models and differences in policing and legal representation it is not that hard to see how differences can manifest and be continued from one generation to another.

I also think it worth pointing out that Indigenous Australians (both Aboriginal & Torres Straight Islanders) originally had their own means of managing and handing on their cultural expectations and these often conflicted with white expectations. The culture that Indigenous Australians used was virtually destroyed by institutionalisation and the stolen generations. This lead to new generations of Indigenous Australians who no longer possess their traditional cultural disciplines and it must be remembered that these actions perpetrated on these peoples constitute what we now see are crimes of humanity. I think this is worth remembering to bring some balance to the issue of ethical judgement when considering the morality of behaviours of the most uneducated, unfortunate people.

It is also worth considering that Aboriginals may well be over represented as highly successful people as I can think of many actors, singers, dancers, academics, artists, musicians, politicians and sports persons of Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander descent so there is clearly much capacity for overcoming the odds faced by these people.

Some interesting pages from a quick google search:

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/
http://www.oodgeroo.qut.edu.au/academic_resources/academicpape/explanations.jsp
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications.aspx (just put Indigenous into the search box to get results specific to this topic)

CraigT You might like to stop watching the election coverage because you seem to have contracted double speak. You know the kind of thing. Making stuff up. Misdirection. Playing on peoples assumptions. Pushing the negative. Pretending like its all about us the people, when really its all about you.

Sorry, enough of the personal attacks. Being hurtful to people/someone/you that I know nothing about is just horrible. There are lots of reasons why you might have made the effort to produce this inspired contra fantasy. It might just be a cultural thing. Maybe passed down from your bastard father. Who am I to judge.

What I do take issue with is your concept
“and all the other politics of divisiveness because it has quite demonstrably helped nobody.”

It helps the powerful and the wealthy. Why else would they bother encouraging it. It helps to obscure reality amongst fiction. It gives the poor and stupid something to bicker about. Something to hate and blame. Divisiveness is standard operating procedure for politics.

craigT, your little rant has achieved its intended goal. Gaol for me. You inspire the violent criminal in me. I would want to provoke you till I had a reason to steal your stuff and shit in your sink. That’s just how I work. But who really needs reasons when I can just make stuff up. What’s the harm in a little make believe.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

I’ve been in this country longer than the majority of “aboriginals”

CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME

You’re an angry bugger, aren’t you.

I’ve been in this country longer than the majority of “aboriginals”

CONSEQUENCES WILL NEVER BE THE SAME

Whose country? “traditional owners” of what?

I’ve been in this country longer than the majority of “aboriginals” and I find the whole “first people” crap to be elitist and offensive. And racist. And stupid.

Despite 40 years of very serious spending on aboriginal programs of every description, aboriginal incarceration rates are going up, health outcomes have not improved, infant mortality is still a disgrace, and the offensive “us versus them” rubbish propagated by the demented lefties and their pet aboriginals is divisive and destructive and as a direct result of that, most australians treat aboriginals with nothing but contempt.

Clearly, 40 years of race-based policies have achieved nothing. Paying aborigines welfare to sit on their arses in what are still reservations (even if we don’t call them that anymore) prevents them from learning any marketable skills. Filling their heads full of grievance-politics encourages them to treat the law with contempt which results in them suffering a vicious circle of recurring contacts with the criminal justice system.

The solution? Stop treating aborigines as if they weren’t humans. Stop treating them as if they were some sort of endangered species of wildlife. If they want money, they should chase work. To chase work, you have to move to the cities. If they won’t send their kids to school, remove their kids from them, and stop bleating about “stolen generations” and “first nations” myths and all the other politics of divisiveness because it has quite demonstrably helped nobody.

You wanna have a real chat about over representation in the Pri$on system?

What is it Male to female?

And of All the other ethnic minorieties in Australia, why Aboriginals?

Their country.
http://www.atns.net.au/default.asp
Thats them waiting for agreements from an invading foreign power, most of us.

When you invade someones country, and you impose a legal system and langauge, it is reasonable to expect them to fight you to death.

The Traditional Owners, and first people displaced are very patient with us, when they share neighborhoods with poor whites, you have conflict about trivialities, if when the police turn up, you have the “being black” Poor whites also, “Holding a civil tounge” easy enough skill, calm composure, Indiginous liason unit, slow things down defuse, diversionary counselling/circle sentencing options, and no lawyers profit from crime 🙂

Police and policy – there’s only 1 letter difference. Coincidence? I think not!

If there is an over-representation of Indigenous people in the ACT’s justice system and the ACT’s government is looking at ways to address this that include housing, education and employment surely that’s a good thing?

To all the “I’m not a racist but I’ve had plenty of run-ins with aborigines” (ex?)cops out there: no one has suggested that you don’t arrest someone who has committed a crime based on their background – keep doing your job.

But if, statistically speaking, there are more Indigenous people in our prisons than any other group then government policies should be developed to address this – at the root cause ie: education, employment etc – the OP suggests no one is trying to address it at policing level (this won’t fix the problem)

Some policies will work, some won’t and there’ll be reviews and audits of them but that is how all government policies are created, implemented and assessed.

But, there are proportionately more Indigenous people in our court/prison system and the government should investigate this. 

Kuku said :

Hey Special G, I’d love to take this off post as I suspect everyone is tired of our bantering….if you are interested, with out prejudice, let me know and I’ll organise a way for you to get my email (thanks JB???). I am really interested in hearing your opinion because that is a way forward….

You have already shown to me that you are unable to read what I have posted, jumped to your own conclusions and name me as rascist at the same time. Why would I wish to discuss the issue out of the public forum – Riotact is exactly the place for it – which is why I post here.

I know, why don’t we give them their country back, with back rent.

Me thinks, certain white trash might be overrepresented in the pr$on system.
that will be expensive, we will have to listen to them complaining about all the Aboriginal langauges they have to learn to get a job, and be intitated into a tribe, you know to belong.

Them poor whities don’t want to respect culture though, they just want money and a house, and they think the world owes it to them.

They are an advanced people, you think they would respect such an ancient culture, but no, destroy it, its different.

Untill The first australians can live with both cultural Identities they are always goona be upset, I know I would. It is happening though, as one after another negative sterotype dies, and the social tensions behind it are addressed, easy, amazing it has only taken 200 years to get to this point, it took the cathlic church longer to forgive Galleleo

Special G said :

And again you miss the point. I am saying Police culture has changed. The things you speak of are not present. You cried Police corruption (in the early 90’s) yet didn’t suggest anything to fix the problem suggested in the original topic.

The indigenous people being brought into the justice system are there because of their own actions – no one elses. They commit crimes get caught, get convicted (which is nothing short of miraculous in the ACT) and then whinge they are being targetted because they are black.

My comment was why look at 10% only when that 10% probably have the same issues as the other 90% in the system regardless of their skin colour,

Hey Special G, I’d love to take this off post as I suspect everyone is tired of our bantering….if you are interested, with out prejudice, let me know and I’ll organise a way for you to get my email (thanks JB???). I am really interested in hearing your opinion because that is a way forward….

And again you miss the point. I am saying Police culture has changed. The things you speak of are not present. You cried Police corruption (in the early 90’s) yet didn’t suggest anything to fix the problem suggested in the original topic.

The indigenous people being brought into the justice system are there because of their own actions – no one elses. They commit crimes get caught, get convicted (which is nothing short of miraculous in the ACT) and then whinge they are being targetted because they are black.

My comment was why look at 10% only when that 10% probably have the same issues as the other 90% in the system regardless of their skin colour,

Special G, it is a shame the reprehensible attitudes of the past are being revisited. I am sure your father wasn’t called a ‘fucking huge black monkey’ at your passing out parade, as a couple of your fellow Probationary Constables saw him walking across the parade ground. But still, according to you I am trying to alleged police corruption and bullshit. Now before I hear your cry of ‘but I’m a ranga’ and I get discriminated against, how would you feel hearing that type of comment from the very people who are supposed to have your back in a dangerous situation?

Wood had little to do with changing police attitudes (except for putting away a few bent Staties and spawning the Underbelly franchise). Neither did Harrison or Fitzgerald for that matter. It hardly changed the culture, except to spell out what was right and what was wrong (see Mark Standen). And many of these issues were part of RCIADIC. So what if you were in high school then? You should know how policing has evolved and why certain laws, policies and procedures are in place. It’s called professional development.

If you had taken a moment to back away from the abject defence of the uniform and badge, you will find I was making a comment about society in general and the need for impartiality from those who actually are charged with enforcing those laws. I will reiterate one more time…when you swear your oath or affirmation, it is the law that is the most important, not some misguided loyalty to police culture. If the law is not enforced impartially, then the over representation of certain groups will ensue.

Hell Special G, open your eyes and think critically about the job. It’s not all defensible and not all indefensible. And one more time….not all Indigenous people are good…..not all police are good…..think about it.

Kuku – again with the lack of discussion on topic – 1992 I was in High school – so no I don’t remember it. What I do know is that Policing has changed a lot since the early 90’s in NSW. The Wood Royal Commission might have had something to do with that.

Special G said :

I don’t like crooks, I don’t like people who cry ‘poor me’ and yet fail to get of their fat lazy arse to better themselves, I don’t like people who sponge on the welfare system, I don’t like people who let their drug dependancy impact on the rest of the public. If that makes me racist then fine.

I don’t care what race, skin colour or religious view are.

I have generally found in the past the first person to cry racist is the biggest bigot of the lot. If you have a differning opinion to an ATSI person here you are labelled racist.

If you think you have a solution to reduce the numbers of ATSI people in the justice system then great – bring it to the party so we can discuss it.

As for Kukus comment about being searched in Redfern whilst a serving Police officer I call bullshit. Any cop I know would say something or produce a badge prior to a search being conducted.

Call bullshit all you like Special G. And while you’re at it try and get a copy of Four Corners ‘Cop it Sweet’….oh and keep a particular look out for the former Eastern Region AFP HQ while you’re at it. You mustn’t have been in the job for long.

I don’t like crooks, I don’t like people who cry ‘poor me’ and yet fail to get of their fat lazy arse to better themselves, I don’t like people who sponge on the welfare system, I don’t like people who let their drug dependancy impact on the rest of the public. If that makes me racist then fine.

I don’t care what race, skin colour or religious view are.

I have generally found in the past the first person to cry racist is the biggest bigot of the lot. If you have a differning opinion to an ATSI person here you are labelled racist.

If you think you have a solution to reduce the numbers of ATSI people in the justice system then great – bring it to the party so we can discuss it.

As for Kukus comment about being searched in Redfern whilst a serving Police officer I call bullshit. Any cop I know would say something or produce a badge prior to a search being conducted.

Buzz – link to ABS – distribution of ATSI people in Australia – http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4705.0Main+Features12006?OpenDocument

The ACT is quite low.

fgzk said :

SpecialG…….Come up with something useful. Useful for whom. Its always about being useful for western/Christian values.

Care to expand on that fgzk? What or whose value system SHOULD we have? You are the poster who wrote (on the ‘Homelessness’ thread):
” Don’t be too scared of Australians, all except the indigenous peoples are immigrants or their horrid children”.

Good to see you standing up against racism and intolerance champ.

@Special G: “I’m a ranga – do you not like me because I have red hair.”

No it’s because you present racist views not because you look like a matchstick.

Special G said :

Ah the one to cry racist – good work that. I’m a ranga – do you not like me because I have red hair.

Ahhh Ranga’s the only people who can be discriminated against legally, oh and fat people… But you can’t call them fat.

Ok Kuku, what is special about the ACT, being a small city, with a lot of services for ATSI people and poor people and middle class people, as well as having night clubs for public servants and uni students?

Why is that if they have so many services and support, they have places to shop, places to collect welfare, places where they can get a job, if they feel inclined, why is that they are still over represented?

Has any study’s been done to show of the disadvantaged people in the ACT(I mean the persons that are out of work, with a family, living in places like Kanangra Court, Bega Flats, Stuart Flats, Northbourne flats, etc.) what is the percentage of these people that identify as being ATSI? Then how many of them are going through the justice system? Then of the ones that aren’t how many of them are going through the justice system?

Finding out these figures is the only way you can REALLY see if there is an over representation of ATSI people in the court system.

Is the more people in the ACT that identify as being ATSI per capita then other major cities? I don’t know where to look for this information.

Ah the one to cry racist – good work that. I’m a ranga – do you not like me because I have red hair.

You state you have a good working knowledge of the issues that face the aboriginal community in Canberra and are therefore better equipt in coming up with suggestions on how to improve the situation and by flow on effect reduce the overrepresentation of aboriginals in the justice system.

As for being useful to western/christian values- sure for the most part Australia is bassed on Western/Christian values whether you agree with them or not. If you have another suggestion – make it – it’s called democracy. That type of government system where people get to vote and say their views and put forward their suggestions for change etc..

So convince me. I dare ya.

bobbatty said :

I know Terry Williams and he’s a nice bloke. I don’t know most of you and some of you are just plain stupid.

Not much more that can be said when you read stupid racist nonsense.

+1 and the AJC

To those haters…try and get to know the Indigenous reps. Maybe, just maybe you could learn something about this topic. Especially you law enforcement posters.

And to Special K…. great to know you have the anonymity of the net to peddle your racist views. Btw not all Police are right….and not all Indigenous people are right. The real issue is who has the power….

SpecialG…….Come up with something useful. Useful for whom. Its always about being useful for western/Christian values.

http://www.justice.act.gov.au/?/publication/view/270…the actual agreement….

Special G said :

Kuku – you are definately coming across as a 5 post nutbag. Now that you have jumped up and down insinauting about Police corruption in the targetting of blacks come up with aomething useful.

Perhaps you should read my post again…or is it too close to home?

Kuku – you are definately coming across as a 5 post nutbag. Now that you have jumped up and down insinauting about Police corruption in the targetting of blacks come up with aomething useful.

I know Terry Williams and he’s a nice bloke. I don’t know most of you and some of you are just plain stupid.

Not much more that can be said when you read stupid racist nonsense.

smack said :

Kuku,
I enjoyed reading your 5 posts in a row. Firstly, I am not a Police officer, however I work in the legal field (this is obvious if you read my older posts) and I am happy to admit I am pro police.
To answer your question “So why would someone claim to be Indigenous when they’re not?”
My post at #62 is simply stating that if you are arrested, and you say you are Aboriginal it immediately reduces the Police investigation time by 50% (4hrs to 2hrs). This is a fact. This obviously puts more pressure on Police as they have less time to conduct their investigation. So even if you aren’t Aboriginal, and you say you are, Police don’t disprove this and take you on your word. There are many criminals out there who like to make the job of the Police more difficult, but I’m sure you already know that as a former Police officer.
I don’t know how you being called all those names is relevant to my post, would you care to explain?

Yup, that’s me…5 post nutbag! I win 😉

Actually, it is in Annunga rules that the investigation time is halved.

And I can assure you that not everyone who ‘claims’ they are Indigenous are afforded that courtesy. It is wrong if you think that all Police uphold the law they are supposed to. Police are only human. They, like everyone else revert to their own deeply held beliefs and prejudices when under times of pressure. It’s human nature. The problem is that Police are the arbiters of the law in the first instance. Not all are great. Not all are awful. It is the law that is the most important. And the public, whether they are Black White or brindle, have the right to demand an impartiality in their law enforcers. If they cannot trust the law enforcers, who can they trust.

Now before I am flamed, I am talking generally here. What I find interesting is that so many people have opinions about Indigenous people, but really, how many do you actually know? And take a moment…where did you get those beliefs? We’re not all bad and we’re not all good. Just like Police. There’s good and bad in every community…the problem is when people tar everyone with the same brush ie – all Police are corrupt…or all Indigenous people are crims and we should have been wiped out by the Portugese (isn’t that right Capt RAFF). Is it any wonder some of us get upset.

RCIADIC identified the crime of being ‘Black in a public place’ ie Offensive Language, Assault Police, Resist Arrest. It goes some thing like this…
Police: What are you doing?
Indigenous male: Fucking nothing.
Police: You’re under arrest for offensive language.
Indigenous male: What? Don’t touch me.
Police: And now you’re resisting arrest.
Indigenous male: What? Don’t touch me. (Lifts arm).
Police: And that is assault police.

And before I heard righteous cries of indignation about language – have a look at your own young darlings wearing FCUK t-shirts, some of the stickers on the back of their cars and the music that is freely available. All this says to white kids is they can act however they wish and black kids have to mind their ps and qs lest they be targeted.

Yes there are some dirt bags that will milk the system for all it’s worth but that is common in every community.If Capt Raaf is not a troll, the he or she will have dealt with a majority of Aboriginal people in Katherine. Why? Why not deal with the equally desperate issues in the non-Indigenous community there? Same issues only one is behind closed doors and one is out in the camps.

I’m not defending poor behaviour. I’m not trying to defend what is a disparate and tragic situation in remote communities. Nor am I trying to make excuses for poor behaviour. This is the ACT. Whilst we have great wealth and opportunities, we have great disadvantage. And Indigenous people make up a large part of that for a number of reasons. I’m trying to say that if you act on deeply held beliefs, then maybe you should examine them once in a while.

Indigenous people in the ACT are NOT the same as in remote communities. The urban experience is not the same as an experience in NT or FNQ or WA etc. But it is valid, real and an issue none the less.

And re my earlier comment, I do not consider two hours an inadequate time to interview or complete further enquiries. You would know that any Officer can apply to obtain an extension…which regularly happens.

Sorry, 23C.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca191482/s23c.html

Tooks said :

jimbocool said :

Smack – why do you say that investigation time is halved? I’ve just acquainted myself with the Australian Federal Police – General Instruction 1 which relates to the interrogation of Indigenous suspects. It is generally in keeping with the Anunga Rules (see Australian Law Refrom Commission #31, paras 554-560) which seek to ensure that Indigenous people understand and enjoy the same rights as all suspects. I can find nothing, however, about reduced investigation times – can you provide a source for this?

Investigation time for ATSI and juveniles is two hours. Crimes Act 1914 part 1C.

I can’t find it – which section?

jimbocool said :

Smack – why do you say that investigation time is halved? I’ve just acquainted myself with the Australian Federal Police – General Instruction 1 which relates to the interrogation of Indigenous suspects. It is generally in keeping with the Anunga Rules (see Australian Law Refrom Commission #31, paras 554-560) which seek to ensure that Indigenous people understand and enjoy the same rights as all suspects. I can find nothing, however, about reduced investigation times – can you provide a source for this?

Investigation time for ATSI and juveniles is two hours. Crimes Act 1914 part 1C.

Smack – why do you say that investigation time is halved? I’ve just acquainted myself with the Australian Federal Police – General Instruction 1 which relates to the interrogation of Indigenous suspects. It is generally in keeping with the Anunga Rules (see Australian Law Refrom Commission #31, paras 554-560) which seek to ensure that Indigenous people understand and enjoy the same rights as all suspects. I can find nothing, however, about reduced investigation times – can you provide a source for this?

Kuku,
I enjoyed reading your 5 posts in a row. Firstly, I am not a Police officer, however I work in the legal field (this is obvious if you read my older posts) and I am happy to admit I am pro police.
To answer your question “So why would someone claim to be Indigenous when they’re not?”
My post at #62 is simply stating that if you are arrested, and you say you are Aboriginal it immediately reduces the Police investigation time by 50% (4hrs to 2hrs). This is a fact. This obviously puts more pressure on Police as they have less time to conduct their investigation. So even if you aren’t Aboriginal, and you say you are, Police don’t disprove this and take you on your word. There are many criminals out there who like to make the job of the Police more difficult, but I’m sure you already know that as a former Police officer.
I don’t know how you being called all those names is relevant to my post, would you care to explain?

What do I really think WMC?I think I do not have enough information on the subject to make informed judgments, and that I am willing and able to take on board information when presented in adecent fashion. Unlike you I do not come here with an over burdened sense of my own improitance, unwiling to listen to contrary views, and jumping in to shout down anyone who dares to raise issues here.

Luckily decent posters come up with information, others like you WMC just lay in childish insults.

Jim, “loaded questions”? Ok, even granting that, they are still questions. And WMC deserves the response he gets.

My experience? 30% of my client base is young men of Aboriginal or part Aaboriginal heritage. A disproportionate level to the local populace. Of these 50% (roughly) will involved with probation and other ACT justice system authorities. How come?

Well you tell me WMC, as you seem to know all there is to tell….

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Pommy bastard said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Oh please. The reverse discrimination myth. “Them Aboriginals get free bikes, them illegal immigrants get free cars. It’s true, it’s a fact, I saw it on Today Tonight”

Well if that’s the best rebuttal you can come up with for what is a serious point, maybe I’m on the right track.

Okay then, tell me what this ‘reverse discrimination’ is. Please include some factual examples.

Still waiting PB….

They should count themselves blessed that this contry was’nt settled by the Portuguese! They’d have all been gone by 1800!

Even considering the possibility of solving Indigenous issues by removing support services seems nutty to me. You wouldn’t bother asking the question if you thought there was no merit at all in the suggestion.

On claiming to be Indigenous, this isn’t as easy as people think. You have to either have proven Indigenous heritage, or be accepted as Indigenous by a particular community or elder.

And really – if anyone could claim to be Indigenous to get all the ‘benefits’ there would be no problem anyway. If you’re so jealous of the perks, just join in.

I don’t know if I’d go as far as WMC, but they’re obviously very loaded questions.

“So, when I ask simple questions, as a way of opening up debate, and “foaming at the mouth WMC starts putting words into my mouth, and making all sorts of silly suppositions, you will understand why, filled with glee, I play up to him.”

That’s just trolling.

See these “?” at the end of my sentences, they indicate I was asking questions, not making declarative statements.

Oh, I know what you were doing, and it’s a common tactic used by intellectual cowards. Make a statement, but tack a question mark on the end to make it seem like you were just ‘putting it out there’, ‘running it up the flag pole to see who salutes’, ‘playing the devil’s advocate’. When the evidence leaves you in a smouldering hole, protest your innocence too much.

So how about you stop playing so coy, and tell us what you really think? Or did you go to Julia Gillard School of Keeping It Real?

A key problem is that a lot of the $$$ we throw at this is poorly targetted & badly thought out.

Special G said :

You bring and interesting point Woody but all you have outlined is that remote localities receive less access to support services. This does not effect only indigenous populations but any person who lives remotely.

Given that this topic is ACT specific and negates the arguement that the aboriginal population here receives less benefits as you suggest.

What the stats say is that a larger percentage of the ATSI population are criminals when compared to the rest of the population. Why is this so when access to all the services and support is right here in the ACT.

Pork Hunt said :

Wrath of Woody. WoW!

Yep – it involves much ranting and gnashing of teeth.

Maybe if we start shooting them again, like they did in the good old days, there wouldn’t be such a problem of them being over-represented in prison?

Kuku said :

And one more thing ‘Smack’ = can interview within the given time? Piss poor investigator – FAIL.

oops = can’t – = righteous indignation fail….

And one more thing ‘Smack’ = can interview within the given time? Piss poor investigator – FAIL.

smack said :

Maybe it’s because of this scenario,
Police ‘Hey you pale skin, freckled face red head, you under arrest for that assault’
Criminal ‘Dam you got me’
Police ‘You have the right to bla bla bla
Criminal ‘I know’
Police ‘Are you Aboriginal’
Criminal ‘Yes I am’
Police ‘Dam it now I only have 2 hours investigation time and not 4 hours. I have to take you on your word on this and from now on you will be recorded as Aboriginal.
Criminal ‘Pretty Sweet deal isn’t it.’

So why would someone claim to be Indigenous when they’re not? To claim the benefits that you (and obviously you’re a police officer) believe they get? When I was in the job I was called every name under the sun from coon to monkey and back again – and I’m not dark. The fair skinned Indigenous officers were called worse….and told they were receiving benefits including special dispensation to be in the job.

Your type of prejudice is one of the reasons why there is over representation of Indigenous people in the criminal justice system.

Captain RAAF said :

Jim, them’s the facts! I’ve dealt with law abiding indiginous individuals with access to all the great things this country provides, from seemingly upright families intent on fitting in yet, invariably, I would end up at thier house because little Nigel has stolen a car, smashed a window, raped a girl, assaulted someone and each and every time, at some point of the whole sorry affair they will say the same thing;

“You only grab me cos’ I’m a black man” or “Wouldn’t be here if I was white!”

Rubbish, your’e here because your a criminal, makes no difference to me, I’ll lock anyone up, with equal treatment and disdain for thier place in society that they alone have chosen!

It’s called accountability, it applies to all of us regardless of our upbringing. If the over represented indiginous in our Justice system had no concept of right or wrong then yes, I’d grant them a significant measure of understanding and tolerance, but they know what they’ve done and that’s why they are where they are.

Gee what a shame you can’t spell…. It’s ‘you’re’, ‘their’ and ‘Indigenous’…what a shame I didn’t teach you at the academy… automatic FAIL.

Captain RAAF said :

Katherine Police Station, when I was there in the late 90’s, 95% of all criminal activity was committed by Aborinal people. Prior to that, and since, millions upon millions of dollars were thrown at these people via grants, handouts and programs and they just tossed it back in the faces of those that would seek to do these people good!

As a wise old man once said, you can’t f*#k sense into a statue! While the aborigine continues to walk around with that monumental chip on their shoulder because Australia was ‘invaded’ over 200 years ago and ‘them whites done steal ma land an dat’, they will never accept the white mans law, that’s why they will always be over represented in the justice system because they don’t give a toss about our rules.

Gee Capt RAFF sorry RAAF. Perhaps you could tell me why my husband and I would be searched walking to work in Redfern by the NSW Police? Did it have anything to do with the fact we were Indigenous and NOTHING to do with the fact we were POLICE officers ourselves????

Maybe it’s because of this scenario,
Police ‘Hey you pale skin, freckled face red head, you under arrest for that assault’
Criminal ‘Dam you got me’
Police ‘You have the right to bla bla bla
Criminal ‘I know’
Police ‘Are you Aboriginal’
Criminal ‘Yes I am’
Police ‘Dam it now I only have 2 hours investigation time and not 4 hours. I have to take you on your word on this and from now on you will be recorded as Aboriginal.
Criminal ‘Pretty Sweet deal isn’t it.’

ATSI people are over represented in the AFL @ 11% Nothing to do with a mindset or race I guess.

Wrath of Woody. WoW!

Reminds me of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-W56D3XJN8

Jim Jones said :

Fine – no problem. In which case, the only question that’s left is: what’s your point? Aboriginals don’t want to better their situation because they’ve got it so good?

Not at all, here’s what I said again…

Pommy bastard said :

Does that explain the number of Scousers in UK jails?

(Is it a cultural rather than a race thing?)

Pommy bastard said :

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Because I think you’re a good bloke Jim, and because you seem to have excellent taste in music, and because, well, I’m just a lovely guy at heart, I’ll explain. 😉

See these “?” at the end of my sentences, they indicate I was asking questions, not making declarative statements.

This was further emphasised by my use of the words “Is it a” and “Maybe it’s something to do with”.

So, when I ask simple questions, as a way of opening up debate, and “foaming at the mouth WMC starts putting words into my mouth, and making all sorts of silly suppositions, you will understand why, filled with glee, I play up to him.

mutley said :

Just a question on the info you’ve provided here Woody

Now you’ve got to look at the programs Aboriginal people are supposed to get, but don’t – like pharmaceutical benefits, or bulk billing GPs, or mainstream child care in urban areas. …
Less access to schooling, transport, hospitals, libraries, public housing, council services, GPs, dental care, pharmaceutical benefits, civil infrastructure, recreation facilities, police protection – less of everything.

I agree with the original issue with over-representation in offender lists and the list to low socio-economic status, but I’m actually genuinely interested in how much of the lack of access to the services you’ve listed is based primarily upon remote living, rather than other (race-based) factors.

That’s what I was wondering Mutley.
Are there stats on the difference in crime rates from people living in the city to living in remote areas?

You bring and interesting point Woody but all you have outlined is that remote localities receive less access to support services. This does not effect only indigenous populations but any person who lives remotely.

Given that this topic is ACT specific and negates the arguement that the aboriginal population here receives less benefits as you suggest.

What the stats say is that a larger percentage of the ATSI population are criminals when compared to the rest of the population. Why is this so when access to all the services and support is right here in the ACT.

Pommy bastard said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

As I just said, yes, they’re available to all – hence, your claim that welfare is somehow the cause of criminal tendencies has no merit whatsoever, otherwise there’d be no difference between Aboriginal people and other Australians.

Can you quote where I’ve said or indicated that welfare is the cause of criminal tendencies?

Because in your rush to lie about what I have said reply, you seem to have made up a whole load of bullshit imaginary things which you have implied I have said.

The rest of your childish insults I’ll ignore.

sepi said :

PB – are you seriously suggesting that removing funding from Indigenous programs would improve the lives of Indigenous people in Australia, and reduce their numbers in Gaol?

Nope, never said anything of the sort. You must be reading the same imaginary prose that WMC is hallucinating.

I do wish people would quote what I have said when they are disagreeing with me, it may help them to reply without having to make up stuff…

You did say something of the sort. On the question of why Aboriginies are over represented in crime statistics you mused ‘Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?’

Just a question on the info you’ve provided here Woody

Now you’ve got to look at the programs Aboriginal people are supposed to get, but don’t – like pharmaceutical benefits, or bulk billing GPs, or mainstream child care in urban areas. …
Less access to schooling, transport, hospitals, libraries, public housing, council services, GPs, dental care, pharmaceutical benefits, civil infrastructure, recreation facilities, police protection – less of everything.

I agree with the original issue with over-representation in offender lists and the list to low socio-economic status, but I’m actually genuinely interested in how much of the lack of access to the services you’ve listed is based primarily upon remote living, rather than other (race-based) factors.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

At the risk of incurring The Wrath Of Woody, don’t poor people get the benfits you’ve listed too?

Yep, though access can be a problem. Which makes me wonder why somebody would think receiving government benefits would be a determining factor in whether or not you turn into a criminal. We all get them – white people more than black. So why aren’t there more white criminals per capita than black? Because it’s a bullsh*t argument, that’s why. Let’s see why.

Are those services, funding and welfare exclusive to “middle clas white people” or are they avaiable to all. Are you seriously suggesting that indigenous people do not have extra services provided? Because a quick Google search should soon disabuse you of that notion.

As I just said, yes, they’re available to all – hence, your claim that welfare is somehow the cause of criminal tendencies has no merit whatsoever, otherwise there’d be no difference between Aboriginal people and other Australians.

But let’s turn to your primary school-level analysis of Indigenous expenditure:

517,000 people, $3.3b. That’s a whopping $6,383 per person. Now, take off a billion straight away for CDEP, the Aboriginal work-for-the-dole program that’s been around since 1976 and is offset against mainstream income support entitlements – that is, it’s just income support Aboriginal people are entitled to like any other Australian, but separated from the rest to make it easier to monitor. Now we’re down to $4,448 per person. Now take off the value of mainstream programs that have Indigenous-specific components for ease of tracking and administration. For example, there’s an Abstudy, but if there wasn’t the bill would just go to Austudy. There’s another $157m in 2006-07, and we’re down to $4,157. Indigenous Education (Targeted Assistance) Act 2000 payments for Indigenous equivalents of mainstream programs like tutoring? Another $333m, and we’re down to $3,517, or a bit more than half of what we started with, and that’s just three programs.

And so on, and so forth, factoring in big ticket items like Aboriginal medical services in towns that don’t have mainstream medical services anyway, or child care services that have their funding segregated because they’re for Indigenous kids, or capital for council services – no duplication, just shifting money every Australian gets anyway, so there’s no ‘extra’. And soon enough you’re somewhere near zero, but you’re not done yet.

Now you’ve got to look at the programs Aboriginal people are supposed to get, but don’t – like pharmaceutical benefits, or bulk billing GPs, or mainstream child care in urban areas. Eventually you come to the truth that Jim Jones pointed out above: that not only don’t Aboriginal people get more than other Australians, or even the same, but they don’t or can’t access the stuff we all take for granted, so they end up with less. Less access to schooling, transport, hospitals, libraries, public housing, council services, GPs, dental care, pharmaceutical benefits, civil infrastructure, recreation facilities, police protection – less of everything. Because pretty much none of that SIBS expenditure is extra – it’s just separated. Which kind of makes you argument look like a limp, sad little joke.

Next time you want to talk about Indigenous affairs, try to come prepared with something better than a single Google search and an arseload of thinly-veiled prejudice.

Perhaps you could have read post#44 before putting in all that effort.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

As I just said, yes, they’re available to all – hence, your claim that welfare is somehow the cause of criminal tendencies has no merit whatsoever, otherwise there’d be no difference between Aboriginal people and other Australians.

Can you quote where I’ve said or indicated that welfare is the cause of criminal tendencies?

Because in your rush to lie about what I have said reply, you seem to have made up a whole load of bullshit imaginary things which you have implied I have said.

The rest of your childish insults I’ll ignore.

sepi said :

PB – are you seriously suggesting that removing funding from Indigenous programs would improve the lives of Indigenous people in Australia, and reduce their numbers in Gaol?

Nope, never said anything of the sort. You must be reading the same imaginary prose that WMC is hallucinating.

I do wish people would quote what I have said when they are disagreeing with me, it may help them to reply without having to make up stuff…

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Pommy bastard said :

Jim Jones said :

How many services for indigenous people are there in Canberra? (Hint, I’ve just got off the phone to one now.) How many “whites only” services?

There is also disgustingly few services for people without disabilities, for people who are not elderly, for people not escaping from domestic violence, people who haven’t been victims of rape and for people who are not poor.

This disgraceful discrimination must stop – who is going to stand up for ‘the rest of us’? PB you could be out there fighting the good fight for all of us, quick, I will meet you at the Welfare Rights and Legal Centre, together we’ll shut them down. Man the baricades comrade.

Middle class white men are the most oppressed people in Australia today. Troof.

What’s next, complaining that men don’t get access to all the free medical service that women get when they’re pregnant?

Pommy bastard said :

Jim Jones said :

Referring to ‘reverse discrimination’ is pretty unambiguous.

Ok, lets disagree then, it’s far more fun than agreeing 😉

Reverse discrimination, is a well known and accepted phenomena, where a minority gets entitlements/services/ that the majority do not have access to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_discrimination (I know. It’s Wiki.)

Mentioning it, and putting it up as a possible for debate, is not “beating up”. In fact you attempts to limit what can and cannot be debated here, or introduced into debate, buy crying “foul” at the very mention of it, is far more overt “beating up”. 😛

How many services for indigenous people are there in Canberra? (Hint, I’ve just got off the phone to one now.) How many “whites only” services?

There are damn good reasons why we have services that are only for a certain sector of the population. As the link you’ve cited states “This discrimination may seek to redress social inequalities where minority groups have been denied access to the same privileges of the majority group. In such cases it is intended to remove discrimination that minority groups may already face.”

Fine – no problem. In which case, the only question that’s left is: what’s your point? Aboriginals don’t want to better their situation because they’ve got it so good?

Pommy bastard said :

Jim Jones said :

How many services for indigenous people are there in Canberra? (Hint, I’ve just got off the phone to one now.) How many “whites only” services?

There is also disgustingly few services for people without disabilities, for people who are not elderly, for people not escaping from domestic violence, people who haven’t been victims of rape and for people who are not poor.

This disgraceful discrimination must stop – who is going to stand up for ‘the rest of us’? PB you could be out there fighting the good fight for all of us, quick, I will meet you at the Welfare Rights and Legal Centre, together we’ll shut them down. Man the baricades comrade.

PB – are you seriously suggesting that removing funding from Indigenous programs would improve the lives of Indigenous people in Australia, and reduce their numbers in Gaol?

At the risk of incurring The Wrath Of Woody, don’t poor people get the benfits you’ve listed too?

Yep, though access can be a problem. Which makes me wonder why somebody would think receiving government benefits would be a determining factor in whether or not you turn into a criminal. We all get them – white people more than black. So why aren’t there more white criminals per capita than black? Because it’s a bullsh*t argument, that’s why. Let’s see why.

Are those services, funding and welfare exclusive to “middle clas white people” or are they avaiable to all. Are you seriously suggesting that indigenous people do not have extra services provided? Because a quick Google search should soon disabuse you of that notion.

As I just said, yes, they’re available to all – hence, your claim that welfare is somehow the cause of criminal tendencies has no merit whatsoever, otherwise there’d be no difference between Aboriginal people and other Australians.

But let’s turn to your primary school-level analysis of Indigenous expenditure:

517,000 people, $3.3b. That’s a whopping $6,383 per person. Now, take off a billion straight away for CDEP, the Aboriginal work-for-the-dole program that’s been around since 1976 and is offset against mainstream income support entitlements – that is, it’s just income support Aboriginal people are entitled to like any other Australian, but separated from the rest to make it easier to monitor. Now we’re down to $4,448 per person. Now take off the value of mainstream programs that have Indigenous-specific components for ease of tracking and administration. For example, there’s an Abstudy, but if there wasn’t the bill would just go to Austudy. There’s another $157m in 2006-07, and we’re down to $4,157. Indigenous Education (Targeted Assistance) Act 2000 payments for Indigenous equivalents of mainstream programs like tutoring? Another $333m, and we’re down to $3,517, or a bit more than half of what we started with, and that’s just three programs.

And so on, and so forth, factoring in big ticket items like Aboriginal medical services in towns that don’t have mainstream medical services anyway, or child care services that have their funding segregated because they’re for Indigenous kids, or capital for council services – no duplication, just shifting money every Australian gets anyway, so there’s no ‘extra’. And soon enough you’re somewhere near zero, but you’re not done yet.

Now you’ve got to look at the programs Aboriginal people are supposed to get, but don’t – like pharmaceutical benefits, or bulk billing GPs, or mainstream child care in urban areas. Eventually you come to the truth that Jim Jones pointed out above: that not only don’t Aboriginal people get more than other Australians, or even the same, but they don’t or can’t access the stuff we all take for granted, so they end up with less. Less access to schooling, transport, hospitals, libraries, public housing, council services, GPs, dental care, pharmaceutical benefits, civil infrastructure, recreation facilities, police protection – less of everything. Because pretty much none of that SIBS expenditure is extra – it’s just separated. Which kind of makes you argument look like a limp, sad little joke.

Next time you want to talk about Indigenous affairs, try to come prepared with something better than a single Google search and an arseload of thinly-veiled prejudice.

Jim Jones said :

Referring to ‘reverse discrimination’ is pretty unambiguous.

Ok, lets disagree then, it’s far more fun than agreeing 😉

Reverse discrimination, is a well known and accepted phenomena, where a minority gets entitlements/services/ that the majority do not have access to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_discrimination (I know. It’s Wiki.)

Mentioning it, and putting it up as a possible for debate, is not “beating up”. In fact you attempts to limit what can and cannot be debated here, or introduced into debate, buy crying “foul” at the very mention of it, is far more overt “beating up”. 😛

How many services for indigenous people are there in Canberra? (Hint, I’ve just got off the phone to one now.) How many “whites only” services?

Jim Jones said :

georgesgenitals said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Ah. That explains why white middle class people commit so many crimes. It’s all the services, funding and welfare they receive. Family Tax Benefit Part A, Part B, a stimulus cheque, baby bonus, paid parental leave, child care allowance, subsidised public transport, free schools, hospitals, libraries – next thing you know, they’re taking your television and beating each other up in the park.

At the risk of incurring The Wrath Of Woody, don’t poor people get the benfits you’ve listed too?

Why not visit some Aboriginal communities and see if they get: tax breaks, stimulus cheques, paid parental leave, childcare allowance, subsidised public transport, a decent quality of education, hospitals, libraries, etc.

It was actually a troll, but thanks for commenting. On a more serious note, I understand that many remote communities struggle to access services many of us take for granted.

georgesgenitals said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Ah. That explains why white middle class people commit so many crimes. It’s all the services, funding and welfare they receive. Family Tax Benefit Part A, Part B, a stimulus cheque, baby bonus, paid parental leave, child care allowance, subsidised public transport, free schools, hospitals, libraries – next thing you know, they’re taking your television and beating each other up in the park.

At the risk of incurring The Wrath Of Woody, don’t poor people get the benfits you’ve listed too?

Why not visit some Aboriginal communities and see if they get: tax breaks, stimulus cheques, paid parental leave, childcare allowance, subsidised public transport, a decent quality of education, hospitals, libraries, etc.

Pommy bastard said :

Jim Jones said :

Can I also say that, as a member of this forum who’s developed a fairly cordial relationship with you, it really does sadden me when you fall back into the ‘beating up on minorities’ mindset. It’s not an endearing personality trait.

Jim, that relationship would only flounder if you took my honest debate /positing ideas for discussion, as “beating up on minorities.”

To avoid me falling into that trap again, please point out the “beating up” bit mate? Or are you compounding my posts with other, dare I say, less open and thoughtful posters ideas? 🙂

Referring to ‘reverse discrimination’ is pretty unambiguous.

Jim Jones said :

For the Australian Government schemes of Medicare and the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS), total benefits paid per Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person were 59% of the amount spent on non-Indigenous people (Expenditure on health for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people 2006-07, AIHW). This is despite the fact that Aboriginal people as a whole suffer significantly poorer health than white Australians.

Because you don’t get a benefit from medicare if you don’t go to a doctor. And you can’t go to a doctor if you don’t live near one. Also, the sooner you die, the less visits to the doctor you make.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

*gives georgesgenitals a cigar*

They were handing these out at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding, but nobody seemed to want them, so I took a box. Score!

Thanks for that! It tastes a bit funny, though. (And not ‘haha’ funny, more funny like ‘this milk tastes funny’).

Jim Jones said :

Can I also say that, as a member of this forum who’s developed a fairly cordial relationship with you, it really does sadden me when you fall back into the ‘beating up on minorities’ mindset. It’s not an endearing personality trait.

Jim, that relationship would only flounder if you took my honest debate /positing ideas for discussion, as “beating up on minorities.”

To avoid me falling into that trap again, please point out the “beating up” bit mate? Or are you compounding my posts with other, dare I say, less open and thoughtful posters ideas? 🙂

Pork Hunt said :

What would happen if the term

“Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander”

was removed from all Government forms, guidelines, statute books and statistics etc etc ?

+1

There are a lot of good posts above, you know, Aboriginals are in gaol cause they steal shit, beat people etc. etc. They only do that because they were repressed etc. etc.

Unfortunately for most indigenous persons around Australia they come from families that have also not been well off. It is the same for the poorer families, as said there is a direct correlation between socio-economic status and criminal behavior, but there is always the exceptions to the rule.

The kid from a poor family with 3 generations of criminals, goes to school, gets a degree, gets a good paying job or the indigenous family that work for a living and never come to the attention of Police, except when they become a victim. Adversely the kid from the well off family, goes to a private school but decides to spend his Friday and Saturday nights going around, bashing drunk people and stealing their phones.

The unfortunate thing is that people out there commit crimes, why? That is they only way they THINK they can survive in life. They get to a point where they don’t care about other person’s morals or principles, they don’t value personal possession as they don’t have anything of their own, why else would they continue to break the law?

There is also A LOT of people in the ACT, probable Australia, that identify themselves as Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander, when there is no real proof of the fact and no real way of proving or disproving them. They don’t get it easier in custody, but there are more rules to holding a person who identifies themselves as ATSI.

I am going to say, the only way to stop the “over representation” of ATSI people in custody, is finding out why anyone goes out and commits a crime. Is it because they get away with it, which enables them to break bigger laws? Is it because that is the only way they know how to survive, can you realistically re-educate someone with that mind set? Is it because as I’ve already said they don’t value what personal possession means to the average Joe citizen?

When I see this type of dribble in the media it does annoy me, while yes, it appears they are “over represented”, there are still a lot of people locked up in Australian gaols. I believe the focus should be in reducing and preventing crime as a whole, not just targeting one group who commit crimes.

Jim Jones said :

Pommy bastard said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Anyone who thinks that living on ‘the dole’ is some sort of luxury would do well to try it for a while: you’ll rapidly be disabused of any notions of ‘reverse discrimination’.

Don’t live on the dole then – get off your lazy arse and get a job – stay in school and get an education (it’s free) – make some cash buy a TV instead of stealing one etc – should I go on.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Ah. That explains why white middle class people commit so many crimes. It’s all the services, funding and welfare they receive. Family Tax Benefit Part A, Part B, a stimulus cheque, baby bonus, paid parental leave, child care allowance, subsidised public transport, free schools, hospitals, libraries – next thing you know, they’re taking your television and beating each other up in the park.

At the risk of incurring The Wrath Of Woody, don’t poor people get the benfits you’ve listed too?

Pommy bastard said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Oh please. The reverse discrimination myth. “Them Aboriginals get free bikes, them illegal immigrants get free cars. It’s true, it’s a fact, I saw it on Today Tonight”

Well if that’s the best rebuttal you can come up with for what is a serious point, maybe I’m on the right track.

Can I also say that, as a member of this forum who’s developed a fairly cordial relationship with you, it really does sadden me when you fall back into the ‘beating up on minorities’ mindset. It’s not an endearing personality trait.

Pommy bastard said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Oh please. The reverse discrimination myth. “Them Aboriginals get free bikes, them illegal immigrants get free cars. It’s true, it’s a fact, I saw it on Today Tonight”

Well if that’s the best rebuttal you can come up with for what is a serious point, maybe I’m on the right track.

Nope.

Per capita, Aborigines receive proportionally less government spending than anyone else in the country by a significant amount.

For example:

For the Australian Government schemes of Medicare and the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (PBS), total benefits paid per Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander person were 59% of the amount spent on non-Indigenous people (Expenditure on health for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people 2006-07, AIHW). This is despite the fact that Aboriginal people as a whole suffer significantly poorer health than white Australians.

Then you’ve got transport, housing, infrastructure and amenities, etc.

Anyone who thinks that living on ‘the dole’ is some sort of luxury would do well to try it for a while: you’ll rapidly be disabused of any notions of ‘reverse discrimination’.

Pommy bastard said :

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Oh please. The reverse discrimination myth. “Them Aboriginals get free bikes, them illegal immigrants get free cars. It’s true, it’s a fact, I saw it on Today Tonight”

Well if that’s the best rebuttal you can come up with for what is a serious point, maybe I’m on the right track.

Okay then, tell me what this ‘reverse discrimination’ is. Please include some factual examples.

Are those services, funding and welfare exclusive to “middle clas white people” or are they avaiable to all. Are you seriously suggesting that indigenous people do not have extra services provided? Because a quick Google search should soon disabuse you of that notion.

At 30 June 2006, the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) preliminary Indigenous estimated resident population of Australia was 517,200 or 2.5% of the total population.

The Australian Government’s Single Indigenous Budget Submission strategically targets resources through coordinated, whole-of-government proposals that leverage mainstream programs, as well as providing options for flexible funding. In 2006-07, total spending on Indigenous-specific programs was $3.3 billion

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Previousproducts/1301.0Feature%20Article9012008?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=1301.0&issue=2008&num=&view=

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Ah. That explains why white middle class people commit so many crimes. It’s all the services, funding and welfare they receive. Family Tax Benefit Part A, Part B, a stimulus cheque, baby bonus, paid parental leave, child care allowance, subsidised public transport, free schools, hospitals, libraries – next thing you know, they’re taking your television and beating each other up in the park.

colourful sydney racing identity said :

Oh please. The reverse discrimination myth. “Them Aboriginals get free bikes, them illegal immigrants get free cars. It’s true, it’s a fact, I saw it on Today Tonight”

Well if that’s the best rebuttal you can come up with for what is a serious point, maybe I’m on the right track.

Pommy bastard said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Why do you think this is the case? Let’s say you’re right, and it has nothing to do with land or oppression or discrimination.

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Oh please. The reverse discrimination myth. “Them Aboriginals get free bikes, them illegal immigrants get free cars. It’s true, it’s a fact, I saw it on Today Tonight”

Maybe Govt should be looking at what the link is between the indigenous 10% and the other 90%. Maybe there are some similarities there that would assist society as a whole and not just focusing on one group.

Capt RAAF could be both – what if he/she was a Captain in the RAAF and then became a cop – or just came up with a user name like the rest of us.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Why do you think this is the case? Let’s say you’re right, and it has nothing to do with land or oppression or discrimination.

Mybe it’s something to do with reverse discrimination, maybe having services, funding, special dispensation, lessened expectations, etc leads to lack of respect for the society which hands over the goodies?

Jim Jones said :

georgesgenitals said :

I suspect it’s less of a race thing, and more of a poor thing.

The two are inseparable (with education and employment providing the links) – have a look at the stats.

Do you mean poor and over-representation in the justice system, or poor and indigenous, or both?

I based my opinion on some experiences of a place I lived when I was younger. It was a very poor neighbourhood, and skin colour had nothing to do with who got busted. A lot of the guys (and many of the women) were unemployed and/or alcoholics (or both), and drunk people with nothing to do all day find some very creative ways to get into trouble.

georgesgenitals said :

I suspect it’s less of a race thing, and more of a poor thing.

The two are inseparable (with education and employment providing the links) – have a look at the stats.

Jim Jones said :

There’s buckets of research waiting to be read: from an Australian perspective, from American perspectives (on both Native American and African American over-represenation), from New Zealand … hell, even Japan has research on this (the Ainu).

Does that explain the number of Scousers in UK jails?

(Is it a cultural rather than a race thing?)

*gives georgesgenitals a cigar*

They were handing these out at Chelsea Clinton’s wedding, but nobody seemed to want them, so I took a box. Score!

georgesgenitals said :

I suspect it’s less of a race thing, and more of a poor thing.

ok now I am scared. I think this is the first time I have agreed with one of your posts…

Why do people respond to anything Captain RAAF posts? Don’t feed trolls.

“la di da di da I am Captain RAAF, I kill cats, I hate poor people, I hate Aboriginals…I post to get attention.”

Captain RAAF said :

…was committed by Aborinal people.

They live in trees?

Captain RAAF said :

….they will never accept the white mans law, that’s why they will always be over represented in the justice system because they don’t give a toss about our rules.

You raise the exact reason why, as Jim Jones said, *all* indigenous populations of the world are overrepresented in prison populations. The fact that even after 200+ years of trying to force a culture to change, it hasn’t, might just prove it isn’t as simple as that.

I suspect it’s less of a race thing, and more of a poor thing.

Aaargh, Cap’n RAAF – I be calling your bluff. Are you an air force captain or are you a copper? Or neither? You certainly haven’t been a copper in Katherine, that much is clear! “Little Nigel”? “idiginous”? Your writings are standard white-upper-middle-class-Tory-High-Anglican rants about the the welfare state (badly) modified to fit an argument about Indigenous over-representation in the justice system.

This seems to be going about as well as I expected. Jim Jones with a bottle of Kool-Aid and some inconvenient facts, and the two-beers-away-from-burning-a-cross crowd hurling their own faeces.

Maybe it has something to do with aborigines deliberately choosing to commit crimes out of proportion to everybody else

Why do you think this is the case? Let’s say you’re right, and it has nothing to do with land or oppression or discrimination. Why do you think Aboriginal people commit so many crimes? Is it genetic? Some special sort of chromosome that disposes people to break and enter? What makes an Aboriginal person wake up one morning and, in a world where nobody discriminates against them and they’re not oppressed or poor, decide to knock over a shop or get into a fight? Please, do share your wealth of knowledge with us all.

Jim, them’s the facts! I’ve dealt with law abiding indiginous individuals with access to all the great things this country provides, from seemingly upright families intent on fitting in yet, invariably, I would end up at thier house because little Nigel has stolen a car, smashed a window, raped a girl, assaulted someone and each and every time, at some point of the whole sorry affair they will say the same thing;

“You only grab me cos’ I’m a black man” or “Wouldn’t be here if I was white!”

Rubbish, your’e here because your a criminal, makes no difference to me, I’ll lock anyone up, with equal treatment and disdain for thier place in society that they alone have chosen!

It’s called accountability, it applies to all of us regardless of our upbringing. If the over represented indiginous in our Justice system had no concept of right or wrong then yes, I’d grant them a significant measure of understanding and tolerance, but they know what they’ve done and that’s why they are where they are.

+1 Captain RAAF

And it is very much the government’s role to investigate these issues and try to do something about it.

If enormous numbers of people with red hair were filling the prisons, or half the suburb of waramanga, for no apparent reason, we would expect the govt to do a bit of research into the reason why, and try to prevent the trend continuing.

Some people are just criminal, and nothing can be done, but in many cases, people could have chosen a better path, and lived a better life, and it would save us all money and heartache if these people’s lives were improved and they stayed out of gaol.

What would happen if the term

“Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander”

was removed from all Government forms, guidelines, statute books and statistics etc etc ?

Would the world stop turning?

Or should all nationalities/races from Afrikaner to Zulu be added to the above?

Captain RAAF said :

Katherine Police Station, when I was there in the late 90’s, 95% of all criminal activity was committed by Aborinal people. Prior to that, and since, millions upon millions of dollars were thrown at these people via grants, handouts and programs and they just tossed it back in the faces of those that would seek to do these people good!

As a wise old man once said, you can’t f*#k sense into a statue! While the aborigine continues to walk around with that monumental chip on their shoulder because Australia was ‘invaded’ over 200 years ago and ‘them whites done steal ma land an dat’, they will never accept the white mans law, that’s why they will always be over represented in the justice system because they don’t give a toss about our rules.

I expected that from you. Ignorance and bigotry are so much easier than research and independent thought.

And here are some stats that demonstrate that, yes, race very much has a hell of a lot to do with it:

http://www.johnwalkercrimetrendsanalysis.com.au/Indigenous.htm

ConanOfCooma said :

Jim Jones said :

Waiting For Godot said :

Don’t you just love the orthodoxy of right wing groupthink: “Aboriginals are all lazy criminals” – so much easier than thought and analysis (let alone trying to fix any ‘problem’).

Wow, you sure showed him, with your constructive criticism and infallible solutions. We need people like you running the country! Oh wait…

The specific individuals are in gaol for a specific reason, race has nothing to do with it. If the government has issues with the population of ethnic levels in the system, perhaps they should stop tallying them by the colour of their skin?

Yes, because we are all on a level playing field aren’t we? If you did any research, which as a troll you won’t, you would notice that coming from a disadvantaged background is a predeterminate for criminal beahviour.

To start you off: if race has ‘nothing to do with it’ as you say, then why are *all* indigenous populations of the world overrepresented in prison populations?

ConanOfCooma said :

The specific individuals are in gaol for a specific reason, race has nothing to do with it.

Dude – if you took the time to do the barest amount of reading on racial representation in prison populations then you wouldn’t be making that statement.

There’s buckets of research waiting to be read: from an Australian perspective, from American perspectives (on both Native American and African American over-represenation), from New Zealand … hell, even Japan has research on this (the Ainu).

Go have a look. This whole ‘people are in gaol just because they’re bad people and race has nothing to do with it’ schtick is the territory of illiterate right-wing radio hosts.

Katherine Police Station, when I was there in the late 90’s, 95% of all criminal activity was committed by Aborinal people. Prior to that, and since, millions upon millions of dollars were thrown at these people via grants, handouts and programs and they just tossed it back in the faces of those that would seek to do these people good!

As a wise old man once said, you can’t f*#k sense into a statue! While the aborigine continues to walk around with that monumental chip on their shoulder because Australia was ‘invaded’ over 200 years ago and ‘them whites done steal ma land an dat’, they will never accept the white mans law, that’s why they will always be over represented in the justice system because they don’t give a toss about our rules.

Jim Jones said :

Waiting For Godot said :

Don’t you just love the orthodoxy of right wing groupthink: “Aboriginals are all lazy criminals” – so much easier than thought and analysis (let alone trying to fix any ‘problem’).

Wow, you sure showed him, with your constructive criticism and infallible solutions. We need people like you running the country! Oh wait…

The specific individuals are in gaol for a specific reason, race has nothing to do with it. If the government has issues with the population of ethnic levels in the system, perhaps they should stop tallying them by the colour of their skin?

Waiting For Godot said :

Don’t you just love the orthodoxy of left wing political correctness? There are aborigines in jail so that’s the result of police and the justice system discriminating against aborigines. Either that or it’s the result of white oppression or having their land taken off them. Maybe it has something to do with aborigines deliberately choosing to commit crimes out of proportion to everybody else, as well as hanging out with gangs and other low lifes, and refusing to assimilate into the wider community. But we’re not allowed to say that, are we?

Don’t you just love the orthodoxy of right wing groupthink: “Aboriginals are all lazy criminals” – so much easier than thought and analysis (let alone trying to fix any ‘problem’).

Don’t you just love the orthodoxy of left wing political correctness? There are aborigines in jail so that’s the result of police and the justice system discriminating against aborigines. Either that or it’s the result of white oppression or having their land taken off them. Maybe it has something to do with aborigines deliberately choosing to commit crimes out of proportion to everybody else, as well as hanging out with gangs and other low lifes, and refusing to assimilate into the wider community. But we’re not allowed to say that, are we?

that’s part of the idea… it takes in to account the underlying cause of criminal behavior

Isn’t the best way for them to stop being “over represented” in the justice system, having them stop committing crimes? I dunno, seems like the best way to go about it to me?