LifeCity responds

Isn’t the name LifeCity a bit unfair for those from the bush. Or is it that city people think that they are the only ones worth being saved? Is Canberra considered a city?

He might have been an admiral a sultan or a king
and to his praises we shall always sing
Lord look what he’s done for us he’s filled us up with cheer
Our Lord bless Charlie Mops the man who invented Beer beer beer jibbily beer berr beer.

That one was from memory as well.

when the lordeth beer cometh all of ye worries will be taken away.. including ye vomit.

Sheer, Just as well the wife is now officially a demonstrator then.

Anyone want to do a party?….

Thumper, Evil, you’re both wrong.

Everyone knows that when the day of reckoning comes, only those of us who have been truly faithful to Tupperware will be admitted through the gates of organised, colour coded, stackable and labeled Heaven.

Really Thumper?

I thought it was
Stage 1: Collect Underpants.
Stage 2: ???
Stage 3: Profit!

You’re attacking THIS church because you believe that its ‘marketing’ approach is bordering on predatory and because they are marketing themselves on myspace – which by all accounts you believe is a haven of paedopilia – hence the paedohpilia analogy…
Is this a correct surmise from your comments or have I mis-understood something ?

Mr Evil, you obviously have not been touched by HIS noodly appendage…..Arrrr!

AMWAY is the only true religion anyway.

What is LifeCity expecting in return from people in exchange for their music and services? – I guess an analogy is hard to find that relates to LC specifically.

Estimated percentage of the world’s habitable land owned by major religious groups: 7 [The Alliance of Religions and Conservation (Manchester, U.K.)]

I daresay that even the largest of corporations, even a combination of several multinationals would not even take up 1%

What do they want ?

Who knows. They will only get my land for 99 odd years.

I can see JB’s house by looking out my window at work – there’s no scary sparks of lightning attacking it yet…

Photo? You seem to be mistaking me for someone else.

JB, I get the feeling you’re going to be on fire in a spontaneous combustion kind of way, a little like that story about a tree that speaks.

Cool, double post…

Seems kinda cold because of a photo you don’t like.

Seems kinda cold because of a photo you don’t like?

And if they were running off anything other the the pedo magnet that is Myspace I would agree with you completely.

Snahon I’m not attacking “the church”, I’m attacking THIS church.

As opposed to several books and revisions that sum up the whole philosophy of life ? How is that exploitation ? Some people may take a simplisitic view of the whole of life philosophy, others may want a more complex meaning but neither is inherently wrong or right.

Why do you assume that they “hope” it will mostly be seen by kids without supervising adults ? Perhaps, just like tv, radio and magazines, the internet is just another avenue ? – kids can hide magazines in the bedrooms from parents just as easily as they can surf the net without their parents knowledge.

“Selling the idea that something as complex as a whole philosophy for life can be summed up in a second rate pop song and expressed in text-speak?”

Is that really what this is about? Or do you feel somehow wronged by ‘the church’, so now your using your blog to persecute them? This is a real turnaround from your staunch support of the Muslims last week!

“And what is the exploitation that is going here ?”

Selling the idea that something as complex as a whole philosophy for life can be summed up in a second rate pop song and expressed in text-speak?

Going out of your way to pitch it in places where you hope it will mostly be seen by kids without supervising adults getting in the way?

“As I said, there’s a huge difference between selling your product and exploiting your customers”

And what is the exploitation that is going here ?

Well, I was singing as I was typing. Don’t know about Thumper.

That’s partially why I didn’t type any of Gesthemene – I can’t sing that high!

What’s the quote from “Thankyou for Smoking”?

“These things are cool and they’re addictive. They practically sell themselves!”

I guess the repeat sales look after themselves with cigarettes…

I too have a serious concern about their music soul harvesting body ownership strategies.

They aren’t playing Stryper!

Soooolllldierrrrrrss Uh-oh-uh-un-der, Gods holy COMMAND! *thrash head*

That one I wrote from memory.

As for all you JC superstar quoters, you can quote it, but can you sing it?

And none of those companies expect they can convince everyone of the virtues (such as they may be) of their products. Finding the right people to sell to, and how to reach them, is the hardest part of marketing.

As I said, there’s a huge difference between selling your product and exploiting your customers.

Tell that to companies like Philip Morris (cigarettes), Coca Cola Amatil, Sony, etc.

Noone really wants something that takes their attention from other important things, affects their health, and costs them money. But that’s what the products of many large companies do. People buy them because they think they want or need them.

It’s worth thinking about what is being sold here, if anything. What is LifeCity expecting in return from people in exchange for their music and services?

Oh bollocks, a good salesman does not sell something the customer doesn’t want or need, it kills repeat sales.

You might want to make a compelling case for the benefits of your product but that is far from exploitation.

Advertising is NOT about fining people who may want to buy what you’re selling – it’s about convincing people that they need/want/desire what you’re selling.

Marketing 101.

“Isn’t that what marketing is all about ? exploiting peoples vunerabilities – be that vanity, conformity, etc ?

Only if you’re evil.

Otherwise it’s about finding people who want to buy what you’re selling (again not appropriate for a real church but not a bad bet for a wannabee hillsong)

“… attempting to exploit the vulnerable and I personally don’t like it.”

Isn’t that what marketing is all about ? exploiting peoples vunerabilities – be that vanity, conformity, etc ?

often without strings attached (eg recent summernats example)

I think you’ll find that strings were attached to the Summernats money.

For instance, the money had to go into the Summernats revenue stream, not — as some might think — into Chic’s pocket.

Should have footnoted – heard about Peter D and YouTube on ABC Radio’s ‘The World Today’ program.

re: youth marketing, Peter Debenham is apparently going to promote himself on youtube for the upcoming NSW State election!

MySpace, YouTube, what next?! These strategies are clearly the hip and happening way to go dude . . .

There is a general acceptance that when marketing to youth more care needs to be taken than when marketing to adults.

By whom? Not meaning to be facetious, but I’ve seen very little care in marketing to youth at any time in the past couple of decades?

Yes, I think you need to be careful because ill-advised attempts to reach youth often end up alienating your target audience, but given that you’ve gone on to suggest it’s similar to the behaviour of paedophiles, I’m assuming you’re reading something more than mere stupidity into this.

La mente, that’s a fair comment – they avoid scrutiny that way. I understand this is due to their ‘charity’ status (though I am no tax expert and will bow to greater smarts).

Mind you, many other organisations also benefit from generous handouts, often without strings attached (eg recent summernats example) and bailouts (eg Mitsubishi).

There is a general acceptance that when marketing to youth more care needs to be taken than when marketing to adults.

For mine their youth centred marketing is attempting to exploit the vulnerable and I personally don’t like it.

Only religious song I like is Creeping Death by (the then real) Metallica.

So let it be written
So let it be done
I’m sent here by the chosen one
So let it be written
So let it be done
To kill the first born pharaoh’s son
I’m creeping death

Die by my hand
I creep across the land
Killing first-born man
Die by my hand
I creep across the land
Killing first-born man

\m/

Miz,
if a tax exempt status for ‘churches’ is not a government handout, what is?

Snahon makes a good point here, JB. Last week you were banging on about how a word in a newsletter might offend someone because of an event some thousand or so years ago, and now you’re openly bagging a different religious group. Not real consistent, buddy!

Oh, religious groups definately have their hands out to the government. It’s pretty much understood that, if you’re running a social welfare program that’s getting government funding, a religious connection is a positive advantage at the moment. Including stuff like Job Networks, and the Australian Technical Colleges.

Okay, it’s probable that the LifeCity mob (dear god, that’s a ridiculous name – feels like a ripoff of SimCity) aren’t involved in that kind of stuff, but a lot of religious movements are…

Nor do I see them with their hand out to the government.

Ultimately, If they are promoting positive values in society then really whats the issue ? So what if they market themselves to the youth of today by doing what youth like – geez sounds like marketing 101. Most organisations change with the times and this example of a church is doing just that.

JB, you criticise this religious group for their methods of attracting members and yet you mock a sports related newsletter for potentially excluding and offending a different religious group purely based on the title – You can’t have it both ways….

I am surprised JB that you are criticising this marketing strategy. Marketing techniques that are used by everyone these days. I would say that’s fairly savvy, and responsive to the way we operate within our society.

And of course it’s how JC worked, out amongst it, unlike most churches, who expect people to come to them. Are people flocking to the old denominations? No.

there is no god.

all preachers are shysters.

organised religion is disguised multi-level marketing.

even jesus chased priests from the temples.

He used music as an example of their approach and you laid down a challenge and accused them of intellectual hubris.

If you’re only concerned about their marketing techniques, lay off the irrelevant and unnecessary criticisms of music choice, and stop talking yourself up at their expense.

The choice of music is merely unfortunately limited. (leaving aside the unfortunate “can’t cut it in the mainstream” nature of most god-rock)

That’s something they brought to the party, not me.

Can you explain to me how someone’s preference for modern over traditional music is an example of grooming?

it’s their decision to use the same grooming methods as pedophiles that concerns me.

(Note: I am not saying they are pedos, just using similar methods)

A church’s decision to match its language and music to its audience “creeps you out” so much you personally attack the man who provides its voice?

I think there are people out there a lot more deserving of RA’s criticism than someone who is, from all evidence, an unoffensive and forgiving man trying to run (and market) his church the way he wants.

That he chose not to run his website past you for clearance before going live is something you’re just going to have to learn to live with.

There are worse things that impressionable youths could be doing than falling in with the happy-clappies. And since their marketing reveals to you and me that, yes, they are indeed that stupid, I don’t find it creepy, merely dopey.

What he does in his own church is his own business, the way they’re marketing it is what creeps me out.

Then of course, you’ve got Simon Zeolates on crowd manipulation:

There must be over fifty thousand
Screaming love and more for you
Every one of fifty thousand
Would do whatever you asked them to

Keep them yelling their devotion
But add a touch of hate at Rome
You will rise to a greater power
We will win ourselves a home
And you’ll get the power and the glory,
For ever and ever and ever…

Yep, it’s as much about religion as a means of public manipulation, as about spirituality. It’s kind of ironic that two blokes as conservative as Rice and Lloyd Webber came up with something as thought-provoking, incisive and radical as Jesus Christ Superstar…

VY, I think one just has to look at the damage the church has done versus how much good it has done, you would find that damage would well and truly be leading the way.

Targeting churches is a very good practice – especially the ones that preach that the earth is only 6000 years old..

Geez JB, how about you just back off a bit and let LCC have their own opinions about what sort of music they should play in THEIR church? It’s not like their christian pop vs classical music was being forced upon you, aside from a three-line ad on a website – and to be fair, you choose where you click (on your own site, no less).

It would be one thing if they came in here assaulting your sensitivities by talking in txt and preaching the benefits of a regular Christian pop-rock ho-down, but last I checked they were minding their own business.

As Josh said, different strokes for different folks. If this isn’t your thing, don’t go.

Are you telling me that:

Every time you look at me I don’t understand
How you let the things you did get so out of hand
You’d have managed better if you had it planned
Why’d you choose such a backwards time in such a strange land

If you’d come today you could have reached a whole nation,
Israel in 4BC had no mass communication,
Don’t you get me wrong…

Isn’t a profound christian message, Thumper?

(and sadly enough, yes, I did do that from memory)

I’m with the full-text crowd. Why should I bother to learn a derivative, corrupted, less succinct language, when I already know a perfectly good one?

The real problem is that kids who use that kind of abbreviation don’t just use it in txt messages. I’d suggest that by encouraging this horrid corruption of our language, LifeCity is directly contributing to… uhh… the horrid corruption of our language. (I wanted to put “the fall of modern society”, but just couldn’t stretch it that far based purely on poor communication skills.)

Josh – good on ya for responding. People bag the church because it seems to be an easy target, but most people don’t see the work it does. Keep doing what you’re doing.

As for the knockers, no one is forcing anyone to go to church. If you want to go, then go. If you don’t want to go, then don’t.

Not garbage – it’s an oxymoron

christian music is garbage.

LifeCity, who was she ?

Are you still together ?

Make your own conclusions.

“2 Sacred 2 Sanctified”

Any music can be used in church – choices are usually based around what is culturally acceptable though, so the conduit doesn’t actually become a barrier. In Aust ‘cultural’ differences in church music preferences generally outworks in terms of generational preferences (older people liking hymns and more formal styles). It’s OK to use pop tunes/ beats – I have been told that some of the Psalms were based on popular tunes (eg one is set to something called ‘Lilies’, apparently a well-known ditty in OT days).
Hey, I think we should just be appreciative that this country has freedom of religion. And I dips my lid to any org (religious or not) that gets out amongst it with the needy ones. There are plenty out there with a hard row to hoe. Good on ya.

lolz, lik omg datz so sad! (i actually know what your talking about!!!)

rly, lik no one uses txt shorthnd nymore! soo lik lst yr.

(AHHH! HOLY SHIT IM NEVER GOING TO WRITE LIKE THAT EVER AGAIN!!)

delate? i think you mean “d-1337”

i can’t remember the last time i received or saw a message in txt shorthand

If any of my acquaintances sent me an SMS featuring ‘2morrow’ or ‘l8r’, i’d show it the respect it deserves, and hit the ‘d-L-8’ key.

i have only ever used full words in my text messages. none of my friends use “txt speak” unless they are being ironic or attempting it.

in fact, i can’t remember the last time i received or saw a message in txt shorthand. 1998 maybe?

I have long been of the opinion that there is much more interesting and challenging spirituality to be found in non-declared-Christian pop/rock/contemporary/whatever music than what’s on offer from a lot of evangelical and Pentecostal churches that have a focus on youth. I couldn’t “worship” to the self-centred “Jesus is my boyfriend” lyrics found in the vast majority of such and frankly I find the music really uninspiring. If you (collective-you) like inoffensive pop-rock and pre-digested words, well, great, but I certainly hope you eventually mature in taste.

And perhaps you might take a few moments to learn about ‘traditional’ church music – you could discover a lot of things that explain a lot. Those 500-year-old hymns by Martin Luther? They were originally pub songs. The hardcore garage band songs of their day, if you will. 🙂

I resent the implication that classical music is tame or boring. If you bother to understand just a little bit about it and the times in which it was written, it’s a damned sight more challenging than most of the bland crap around today. (Which is not to say there wasn’t bland crap around in 1801 or whenever, it just didn’t get played much any more.) But hey, learning’s hard.

Frankly the best pop music I’ve heard that’s been obviously Christian is from ‘Jesus Christ Superstar’ (before Andrew Lloyd Weber went bland). Catchy music, lyrics that don’t presume you have the intelligence of a rock. Good one there.

Anytime you want to go head to head in a new music quiz I’m more than happy to give you a go.

I’ll wager I’ve done a lot more to promote original music than your church ever will. I crave the new.

Having said that, to think that you can overnight re-invent 2,000 years of inspirational music is stunning hubris.

And thanks for the offer but where and when I worship doesn’t need a happy clappy who uses myspace through incompetence to intercede for me.

Thanks for the comment – each to their own I guess.

I know some good traditional churches that you might like if you are interested. I could even chat to one of the ministers personally if you are interested in going to one.

I don’t listen to ABC classical personally so I don’t sing alot of classical european based music in church (we do have a little by not alot)

You can of course can hold whatever opinion you want – that is the great thing about diversity in all sections of life. It gaurantees survival and even a a thriving landscape.

I think spring is actually here – but if you like winter? fair enough

That’s cool for you then – however as I am sure you are aware the vast majority of people do not.

I guess you are more of a traditional anglican guy (that goes very occassionaly) rather than a LifeCity sort of fella and that is fine.

I guess when you text you use full words?

Actually yes, I do. I like my text messages to be comprehensible.