State Circle route still the best bet for light rail to Woden

The difference between 70kph and 80kph for the roughly 6 1/2km involved of road at the present 80kph limit is less than 3/4 minute. And even that will mostly disappear if intermediate stops, as proposed a while back for the buses, are introduced.
Further, the often quoted travel time of 15min is only under excellent conditions. My recent peak hour journey City to Woden on the R4 bus took 21min with green lights and no delay before the bridge!
The reality is the Light Rail travel time will not be much different to present peak commute times, and likely be considerably more reliable. As Canberra grows and traffic increases and the adjoining road speed limit probably reduces, the reliable Light Rail time could be expected to be the best available.
(The same would apply to buses on a separated right-of-way, but buses versus light rail is not canvassed in this reply.)

Roger,
You disappeared on the other thread when called out on this stuff yet here you are repeating it again.

The light rail will not be remotely equal to the equivalent bus trips now.

“(The same would apply to buses on a separated right-of-way, but buses versus light rail is not canvassed in this reply.)”

So once again, you want to compare a theoretical light rail system that benefits from fundentally changing the operation of the road to suit itself but don’t want to apply the same lens to buses.

If you want to play that game, the benefits of light rail only accrue through land development, so necessitates that a number of additional stops must be created to support that development, significantly slowing the travel time. And express routes can only be created by building even more infrastructure to allow passing locations for the light rail vehicles.

And the buses are only limited to 80km/hr because of the roadway speed limits. If we are changing things to suit, give them right of way and make the limit 100km/hr.

Quoting 21 minutes as the bus travel time from the City to Woden to justify the speed of LR is really stretching the truth, because that allows for disruptions caused by LR 2a.

The argument about how “IF” TC had added additional stops on the R4 route it would have resulted in comparable travel times as LR, doesn’t really support your case.

Given that it was decided NOT to proceed with that option, tells you that it wasn’t considered a good public transport option.

When LR first commenced, the ACT Government implimented a series of Loop services in Tuggeranong, to simulate how services on the North fed LR.

The Government realised that people weren’t prepared to accept longer commute times and more frequent getting on and off buses to connect to R4s and R5s. They abandoned those Loop routes and those services now travel to Woden.

‘You disappeared on the other thread…’
No, I expressed some views which you in particular chose to try and rubbish, using what seemed to me to be misinterpretation, spin, focus changes, etc . So polished, I am starting to wonder which polly or party you are involved with. I have expressed my views, and do not have the time or motivation to enter an endless debating competition.

‘The light rail will not be remotely equal to the equivalent bus trips now.’
You are quite right. Using the techniques you have subjected me to, ‘Obviously Light Rail will be so much better it cannot be remotely equal to buses’ …

Roger,
No I used logic and facts to rubbish your opinion. Because your comments were full of mistruths and spin that are easily countered.

You are perfectly entitled to that opinion of course but if you want it to be respected, perhaps work the logical reasoning behind that position and provide better arguments.

The evidence around travel times, engineering or economics don’t back you up.

‘Quoting 21 minutes as the bus travel time from the City to Woden to justify the speed of LR is really stretching the truth, because that allows for disruptions caused by LR 2a.’
You missed ‘green lights all the way and no delay till the bridge’.
The current works had no noticeable impact on that particular trip. It was an extraordinary smooth run to the bridge, thereafter not so good.

‘The argument about how “IF” TC had added additional stops on the R4 route it would have resulted in comparable travel times as LR, doesn’t really support your case.’
Are you suggesting that as development proceeds, this won’t happen? The remark about the stops was an added comment. My main point doesn’t hinge on this.

A complete side matter. Is there any concern about buses without seat belts (except the driver), airbags, etc, and standing passengers, belting along at 80kph ?

“You missed ‘green lights all the way and no delay till the bridge’.
The current works had no noticeable impact on that particular trip. It was an extraordinary smooth run to the bridge, thereafter not so good.”

So you agree the bus route currently has no delays until it reaches the part of the trip which has been slowed by the raising of London Circuit for Light Rail 2A project because of the road limitations in that area and increased traffic being redirected to that route through closures?

“Are you suggesting that as development proceeds, this won’t happen?”

As previously advised, the development along this route is only being proposed to support the light rail and won’t occur for many years regardless. As also previosuly advised, it would make far more sense to plan for future upgrades when and if the demand exists rather than spending billions of dollars on something that “might” happen.

Existing developed areas or smaller redevelopment in the adjacent suburbs won’t really benefit because most of it is too far from the light rail route for people to walk easily to these future stops. Similar to Light Rail stage 1, some of these areas will suffer worse public transport outcomes by being funnelled back to the light rail, with increased travel times baked in.

“A complete side matter. Is there any concern about buses without seat belts (except the driver), airbags, etc, and standing passengers, belting along at 80kph ?”

Far more people standing on a light rail vehicle by design if a crash was to occur. With appropriate separation from other traffic, the risk of either bus or light rail safety is very low.

‘So you agree the bus route currently has no delays until it reaches the part of the trip which has been slowed by the raising of London Circuit…”
And there you go again, deliberately misinterpreting. In the threads I made it crystal clear that the trip out of the City had no delays to Commonwealth Ave bridge. Even the traffic lights were green. Re-iterating, the works were not an issue.

If you looked properly at my comment about standing and unseatbelted passengers you would note that I wondered if this was a concern, nothing more. You have chosen to spin it as being an argument presented in favour of Light Rail. Even then you equate bus and Light Rail risk and ignore the difference that buses have to be steered and thus reliant for directional control on the driver. And yes this last remark can be spun by claiming the driver of a bus may be able to steer out of trouble.

Roger,
The lights aren’t the only thing that cause the additional impacts of the road work although they factor in to it. For example, there is more traffic on the route now because of the road closures, particularly in peak hour in those close city locations. Which is why the updated bus timetable ranges the trip from 15mins in low traffic periods through to 21minutes in peak periods. Although this argument is pretty meaningless because any future system bus or light rail wouldn’t have to deal with the problems forced by the roadworks at both ends and isnt really conparable.

“If you looked properly at my comment about standing and unseatbelted passengers you would note that I wondered if this was a concern, nothing more.”

And I provided you with an answer, nothing more.

Although your claim that you only raise it as a “concern” is extremely transparent, with your selective raising of certain topics whilst ignoring the far larger ones that don’t support your position.

Both Light Rail and Buses are significantly safer than the equivalent road trips in private cars. Most of the danger of both is not for the public transport users but rather pedestrians and other road users, risks that are then reduced again by better controls like separation and right of way provision. They are both extremely safe for users.

Quite right, public transport is inherently safer.

As to concern, you are inferring an ulterior motive. No, I want to know if there is concern. If it turned out there was, then that would then be a discussion point. I must say, having experienced violent stops in both local modes, that it is not good. The Light Rail driver came through to check no-one had been injured, and in the bus I ended up injured. I think it reasonable to ask about concern.

Do I read you correctly, no Light Rail = no development? Hard to believe.

It seems that we are now agreed that the oft quoted 15min between Woden and City Interchanges is, at best, only under ideal and fortuitous (green lights) conditions. Thus comparing Light Rail forecast travel time to 15min is exaggerating the difference.

“Do I read you correctly, no Light Rail = no development? Hard to believe.”

Yes, it is hard to believe because no one said it.

I said the development along the route is only being proposed now to support the light rail project. ie. The government is looking for specific developments on open space and recreational areas along the route to exploit for medium/high rise development. These sites would not be developed in the near term if not for the government needing to find development opportunities to cover some of the enormous costs of the light rail capital. As previously stated, this is a solution looking for a problem.

Development is and will continue happening around the government’s densification policy, but that doesn’t justify building an enormously expensive public transport white elephant well before it’s needed on a route that is already well serviced by public transport. Particularly when it makes that service worse.

“It seems that we are now agreed that the oft quoted 15min between Woden and City Interchanges is, at best, only under ideal and fortuitous (green lights) conditions.”

Ah no. 15mins is the standard time that has been achieved on this route from buses over many years and is now only being delayed due to the road changes being made to support a future light rail and development in the City and Woden areas. It’s the base case for current users. If the government supported an express bus on this route in the future, that type of timeline would be easily achievable again. But hey, lets add a few minutes and a range and say 17-19 minutes throughout the day if it makes you happier.

Which is the thrust of the issue here, light rail is already slower and requires additional stops and development to occur directly along the route to support it, but this necessarily will significantly delay travel between Woden and Civic. Residents in those South Canberra areas who don’t live close to the light rail route will also be disadvantaged because their buses will be funnelled back to the light rail as has occurred on Stage 1. It is also very difficult to provide an express light rail trip between the two end points without creating even more additional infrastructure to allow the light rail vehicles to pass each other.

So the construction of light rail necessitates a significant increase in travel time on this route, when currently there is little demand for it. So what’s the point in spending a few billion dollars to solve a problem that currently doesn’t exist?

This part of the the thread has now regressed to the 2nd ‘View more conversations’ level. Whilst I do wonder if you were able to stop the Light Rail, what your vision is for the alternative in the short and longer term for public transport between the relevant interchanges and integration with the wider network, there seems little point in continuing the debate in this thread.

Roger,
I’ve already outlined what the government should do both short and long term on this issue.

Properly assess alternative options for the public transport network as a whole as well as individual routes and how upgrades to that network can/should be staged over time.

They should also not forget that the public transport network isn’t just the main trunk routes, as the recent degradation in suburban bus service has significantly impacted people who don’t live in central city areas.

From the government’s own assessments on Stage 1 and the current city structure and transport needs, it’s highly likely that a bus based system is far more cost effective to meet public transport needs on the Stage 2 route.

It’s also highly likely that a higher capacity transport mode will be needed in the future based on the government’s growth strategies. The government can plan and adequately protect future alignments for when/if that mode (rail or other) is needed.

The expenditure of public funds should always be made in the most efficient way possible to provide essential services. The Light Rail project has been far too infected with politics and the ideologues refuse to reconsider their position despite the large and ever increasing body of evidence showing that the expenditure on light rail at present doesn’t make any sense.

Referring to your last two points. Canberra is growing. The Parkway is already dubbed the ‘Crashway’ and Adelaide/Commonwealth Ave is the main alternative. It seems inevitable that traffic (private, commercial, public) will need more lanes and consequently, that extra bridge. The (reportedly old age) trees seem doomed no matter what, just a question of timing.