ACT Light Rail Meeting - Thursday 5 February

PS I’m a Belco Boy, not a Gungahlinite.

Pandy, are you bagging out ACT Light Rail just because your preferred version of light rail isn’t preferred by everyone else? Either hop on board constructively or don’t bother.

I am a supporter of the idea of light rail in Canberra but also a realist. I think a frequent major-route system would benefit Canberra enormously but it has to incorporate and recognise valid mass people movements between residential, educational, and commercial centres, and I have not seen too much thought in any of the proposals I have seen to date, including the ‘sample’ on the website, other than emotional attachment to where one lives in Canberra. As Pandy infers #32 you need to be objective and realistic in appraisal of options and routes.

I am not sure running a light rail to Bungendore (pop. ~2,000) is feasible nor intelligent and objective thinking (regardless of HQJOC), especially when you forget centres such as Queanbeyan (other than the railway station at the top of the city) and Jerrabomberra, Googong, Lanyon Marketplace, Kippax Centre, plus you have not appeared to consider a direct route from Woden or Fyshwick across Kings Av to service Barton (ie. AFP when they move to EBB, PMC, etc), or a direct route from Molongolo to the city along Cotter Rd, etc. Also, the staged approach in the ‘sample’ proposal is essentially unworkable as commuters will simply not drive out of their way to change modes of transport on a ‘work-in-progress’ system that doesn’t take them all the way to their destination. Stage 1 must include the ‘Y’ or at the very least the left branch, ie. Belconnen to City to Woden to Tuggeranong.

Anyway, I can’t attend the meeting as it is in Belconnen and I live south like more than half of Canberrans but I am happy to contribute my thoughts to the cause outside of this forum 🙂

p.s. I think selling the cause using the Griffin Legacy is the way to go! The NCA and ACTPLA get off on hearing that!

To ACT Light Rail the person: No

You are being far too sensitive to think I was
attacking you, rather than your organisation that you are a member of. I think you should separate ACT Light Rail the person from ACT Light Rail the organisation.

ACT Light Rail, is still linked to the Yahoo group, or was when it resurrected itself in 2007. The piece I pulled out was from 5 years ago. Many of the players then are still players of the present incarnation. You are one of the moderators of the group?

Secondly, the second figure is a not fact twist; it is there on the website.

Oh I have other examples too now, more recent. 🙂

If you personally do not wish to respond to my pointing holes in your organisations arguments, that is up to you. Frankly I don’t care.

my sensible arguement has always been that Molonglo should be a model show case for light rail. But your organisation is too stacked with Gungahlinites to ever advance that seriously. If you personally change your tune, well………

Have a nice meeting.

Pandy – I dont post here to be called a liar. I do not post lies, i do not make facts bend to suit my case. I think you know that pulling some obscure part of an email from a previous incarnation when it was the ACT Light Rail Coalition, going back what 8 or 10 years now, is a bit, well, twee. The second figure you quote is once again another fact twist.

If you wish to engage in healthy public debate, you should refrain from personal attacks. Several people you have baited in the past have suggested that i should just ignore you and your comments. I would prefer to answer your criticisms of public transport. However, unless you apologise, i will have to ignore your comments from now on. This will not be onerous on my part.

To others interested in light rail and public transport, i invite you to our public meeting tonight. If you are a member of a school or community group and would like someone to talk to your organisation on light rail and public transport, please contact me through our website.

Damien Haas

Chair, ACT Light Rail

Again Al, OLD Canberra was built for electric street cars and heavy steam rail and some motor cars. The Y plan was built around the motor car for an expanded city.

ACT Light Rail have never offered a cost figure for light rail

A lie.

From the ACT Light Rail Coalition yahoo group:-
b) Provide our own costing estimate of $70M for a Civic to Gungahlin light
rail link;
Mark Loney
Spokesperson
ACT Light Rail Coalition

And from the ACT light rail web pages:-
FAQ: Isn’t light rail too expensive for Canberra?
While early studies claimed exorbitant costs, recent figures indicate that costs of between 3 and 6 million dollars per kilometer would be comparable to or cheaper than alternatives such as additional or enlarged roads or dedicated bus-ways.

The question is, can any politician be brave enough to commit to building it. In electoral cycle politics, few are.

I fervently hope that the example set by Barack Obama could inspire some local politicians on the value and electoral acceptance of someone prepared to display vision and leadership, to inspire hope, to treat opponents with respect, and the population not as simplistic morons. I have not yet been inspired by our MLAs who call themselves the Government, but I remain somewhat hopeful.

City-wide mass transit is a big picture solution, and requires a leader with vision. Not blinkered individuals mindlessly reciting the “Canberra was built for the car” mantra (especially when it wasn’t…) or parroting unsubstantiated back-of-an-envelope-and-grossly-inflated-for-political-purposes costings.

Gungahlin Al is correct – ACT Light Rail have never offered a cost figure for light rail, and we question every figure which comes forth whether it be from the Chief Minister or Pandy, on how the figure was arrived at.

I know the figures from the PTFFS were not based on Australian figures, and used US Heavy rail costings. No one apart from TAMS Transport Policy public servants, PWC and (perhaps by now) the Chief Minister have seen the figures which were provided to Infrastructure Australia. Any claim to know the true cost is a mischievious furphy.

Any infrastructure project will cost some hundreds of millions of dollars. Light Rail will offer significant benefits to Canberra that may not be realised immediately, but will in time when the opportunity to guide development in a meaningful way, and alleviate the requirement for more roads, more parking and more cars becomes apparent.

The aim with mass transit public transport is to get the 80-90 percent of Canberrans who use cars as their ONLY form of transport to use public transport. This is achieved by offering an attractive, comfortable and reliable alternative which can take you from where you live to where you work or are educated. Buses are not a mass transit solution, but will be integral to the success of light rail by serving as feeders to light rail hubs/stations.

The argument for light rail is essentially a political one. The cost of light rail is an infrastructure cost which can be borne by a government. The question is, can any politician be brave enough to commit to building it. In electoral cycle politics, few are.

Damien Haas

Chair, ACT Light Rail

Take a look at the Northbourne median strip, then go take a look at the Limestone one. The latter has a lot more room (and has significantly less aesthetic value).

Caf – look down the middle of the trees – great big wide empty corridor – for a reason: it was always the intended route, right back to Burley Griffin himself. So the trees were planted out to the sides deliberately so they (mostly) wouldn’t need to go.

I’m sure the Ainslie residents would love to see Monash Drive resurrected though. Because there’s less elbow room down Majura/Limestone.

Gungahlin Al: I reckon you’re on a hiding to nothing pushing for it to go down Northbourne Av. There’s a lot of people that aren’t going to want those median strip trees knocked down for a light rail.

Much better to go via Ainslie Av / Limestone Av / Majura Av (widened) / Cowper St (on-road) / Antill St.

What every 2 metres in the grass?

What is missing from the video is the mandatory safety barrier to protect people and animals from a very silent train hurtling towards them at 80km/h.

Crikey – better get Northbourne Ave fenced off quick smart.

Nah, just paint “LOOK ?“ on the road.

Warm fuzzy images, are just more spew. Better to have shown how it would truely looked like.

What is missing from the video is the mandatory safety barrier to protect people and animals from a very silent train hurtling towards them at 80km/h.

Crikey – better get Northbourne Ave fenced off quick smart.

Sure thing Jakez, and your request for evidence – rather than blind and unsupported rebuttal – is appreciated.

Check out any of the hits you get from searching on Peter Newman and Perth rail – start here.

In particular, note this bit:

Initially support from consultants favoured a bus way, however this was successfully overturned when a study, again involving Professor Newman, highlighted greatly over-estimated costs for a new rail line, and warned of future CBD road and passenger congestion if a bus way proceeded.

It goes on to mention the recently completed line to Mandurah, but neglects to mention that the ENTIRE project was paid for from developer contributions – before it was even finished.

In much the same way, we rebuilt the entire streetscapes in the Mooloolaba foreshore and in Marochydore’s Duporth Ave and Ocean Street using predominantly developer contributions.

For rail, toss in all the savings from deferred or unnecessary road construction, and the sums look even brighter.

Hence the need to give this some urgency – the logical first leg of a staged implementation is up Northbourne to the Gungahlin town centre, where vast tracts of vacant land can sell for slightly increased values and therefore offset the rail costs. But the land is selling rapidly, and the opportunity to kick this off inexpensively is thus disappearing.

There’s an old rule in maintaining political messages, about continuing to repeat them until you feel like you are going to vomit if you hear yourself say it again – at that point perhaps people are starting to hear your point. Well I’m close to spewing on this need for a proper cost-benefit analysis on this – is anyone close to hearing it?

The desire o build it for one.

GCC which is a lobby group, said in May 2007
“Current ACT Government consideration of light rail is based on unsubstantiated costings that are estimated to be inflated by 300%.”

This is when the Government was saying light rail would cost $1 billion. What makes the GCC such an expert then on costs then?

Does anyone see anything wrong with this video?
http://www.consact.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=326&Itemid=36
What is missing from the video is the mandatory safety barrier to protect people and animals from a very silent train hurtling towards them at 80km/h.

Gungahlin Al said :

Every time light rail is discussed some git adds another billion to the supposed cost.

Including in numbers put forward by certain members of the ACT Assembly. If I were cynical, I might think certain members might be trying to inflate the numbers in order to kill it off…

Unfortunately these stupid numbers then grow lives of their own to the point where other gits starts parroting them like they are fact. (“I read it on the internet so it must be true.”)

Whereas the reality is that the increased revenues and decreased costs to the ACT Government are quite likely to result in an actual net cost to the taxpayer of next to stuff all. Without even factoring in the vast improvements to Canberrans’ quality of life (whether or not you use it or drive)…

So how is this PWC cost-benefit analysis going? Or were the people doing it among the thousands around the world PWC laid off the other day?

I have a simple philosophy in life Al, if it sounds too good to be true, it most assuredly is too good to be true.

…this philosophy is often mitigated by my shocking curiosity. Do you have something that I could read that would back this claim up?

I think this Dilbert sums it up.

PM: Caught out on what? Are you placing words in my mouth? Very clearly I said it was on their website: see the Media Release on their front page. You may choose to twist my words to suggest that they agree with the cost. [shakes head]

Hax: LOL

Gungahlin Al said :

ACT Light Rail reporting in a website article that the ALP reckons it’s a $3B project does not mean that ACT Light Rail agree it is.
Important difference.

Gungahlin Al : ‘next to stuff all’
ACT Light Rail : $1B
Stanhope : $3B
Actual Cost : ..Priceless

Going by track record, it would probably end up blowing out to at least $5B

Pandy – I can confirm that Stanhope is a git.

Gunghalin Al is correct in his comment #10, too – you were caught out.

Who said ACT Rail has to agree with it?

My question was about Stanhope. Is he a git for bandying about that light rail is now hoing to cost 3 billion? By implication from what you said……..

I really can’t resist, I had to listen to it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAk2BBhQm1o (is this allowed? sorry newbie).

Perhaps the best stragety ist o suggest it be built in Queanbeyan, Canberrans are at least twice as smart right?

ACT Light Rail reporting in a website article that the ALP reckons it’s a $3B project does not mean that ACT Light Rail agree it is.
Important difference.

Lady from Holt – i urge you to join the light rail email dist at http://www.actlightrail.info

Sadly the PWC submission and any numbers contained within it are at present a state secret. The greens asked a question in the assembly in late 08 asking about the PWC business case. Stanhope said he hadnt seen it, before it went to Infrastructure Australia.

Im hoping TAMS were happy with the report provided to them by PWC. Despite asking for it, we’ve never seen it.

3 Billion is a large ask, but Im assured the business case does also recommend a phased implementation of routes. This was also stated in the business case tender documents.

regards

Damien Haas

Al, are you saying Stanhope is a git?

These costs are what has been widely reported as the governments submission costs. Oh also staed by ACT Light Rail

http://actlightrail.info/

Every time light rail is discussed some git adds another billion to the supposed cost.

Including in numbers put forward by certain members of the ACT Assembly. If I were cynical, I might think certain members might be trying to inflate the numbers in order to kill it off…

Unfortunately these stupid numbers then grow lives of their own to the point where other gits starts parroting them like they are fact. (“I read it on the internet so it must be true.”)

Whereas the reality is that the increased revenues and decreased costs to the ACT Government are quite likely to result in an actual net cost to the taxpayer of next to stuff all. Without even factoring in the vast improvements to Canberrans’ quality of life (whether or not you use it or drive)…

So how is this PWC cost-benefit analysis going? Or were the people doing it among the thousands around the world PWC laid off the other day?

3 billion dollar wish list.

Light rail in Canberra sound to me (and others obviously), like the perfect sort of thing for the Gubmint to be funding in these days of “economic stimulation”.

It’s that or a monorail…

I’ll miss it unfortunately, but can we get an update on how it goes?

I’ll be there. They’re always good meetings.

Very Fast Train. Now there’s an idea that should have an organisation behind it.

The ACT Light Rail network will be built just after the Very Fast Train and the Multi Function Polis.