Advice on renovating Narrabundah worker's cottage

cchampion88 said :

“The distance to the front boundary can be as close as 4 metres if you have a wide verge in the street.”

I did read this on the ACT planning website, but was a bit confused- is this 4m calculated from the street? Or is it calculated from further back (I couldnt quite work out how to determine this).

Front of house facing street to property boundary for an RZ1 zoning. Don’t forget there are also requirements for off-street parking.

ACT Planning’s rules and regulations are all over the place, with conditions set for age of the property and all sorts of bizarre caveats. Don’t work simply from what I have told you, go through the applicable regulations as they apply to your property.

“The distance to the front boundary can be as close as 4 metres if you have a wide verge in the street.”

I did read this on the ACT planning website, but was a bit confused- is this 4m calculated from the street? Or is it calculated from further back (I couldnt quite work out how to determine this).

cchampion88 said :

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for your comments. I’m sorry I didnt offer much information on my plans!

The particular house I was looking at is next door to the house we are currently renting. We will be renting for the next year or two, so renovating from next door would be pretty convenient. The model we are looking at buying is a 3 bedroom Bega. I would obviously get a building report done before I considered buying it but from my understanding this particular house is a steel frame so rearranging internally wouldnt be too much of a problem because in the steel frame houses/truss roofs, none of the walls are structural. So my plan would be to knock down all the internal walls seperating the kitchen/dining/laundry had have a big open plan living/kitchen area (exactly what they have done in our current house). If the walls aren’t structural I could do this work myself (from the comfort of our house next door!!!).

As far as the asbestos goes, the external asbestos board can be removed pretty easily. I have done an asbestos course which allows me to safely remove asbestos (through my work), and i know in the ACT you can remove 10sqm per week yourself and dispose of it at the tip for free. As long as you wear the appropriate PPE it’s not really a huge risk to your health. So my plan would be to slowly remove sections of the asbestos cladding and have the walls insulated and then reclad in weatherboard. This is what they have done in the house we are currently living in and it looks great. The house has corrogated iron roofing so this would not need to be replaced (although I would want to replace it eventually).

As far as renovating the kitchen/bathrooms, I was planning on utlizing the newly opened IKEA to buy a kit kitchen and install ourselves. A really nice IKEA kitchen only costs around $10,000. A bathroom can be renovated for $10,000 pretty easily if you are savy. I have found an amazing wholesale tile place in Sydney that sells nice tiles for pretty cheap- my girlfriend just bought all the tiles for her bathroom reno for about $1,000 and her and her mum are doing the tiling themselves- they are amazing and have offered to help me!

I would prefer to extend forward because as some people have mentioned, the blocks in Narrabundah are on average only 465sqm. I would rather keep as much of the backyard as possible.

Architecturally, the extension would just be an exact replica of the current facade, just brought out a few extra metres- enough to fit an extra bedroom. This would give more room in the middle of the house (where one of the bedrooms is currently) to add to the open plan dining area. Perhaps I am being nieve, but I can’t imagine this would be too difficult???

I really appriciate all your comments!!

Sounds like you have a good plan, but just be aware of the cost of holding a property empty. If your reno takes 6 months, for example, that’s half a year of mortgage interest lost.

Good luck with purchasing and renovating the house. I have seen some good renovations of these houses, and after they are finished they can look much better than many of the basic, bland, uninteresting brick houses that replaced some.
Re $1,000 for tiling. I can’t remember the exact figure for tiles, except I bought tiles for my bathroom for much less than that at a clearance sale for old stock. They were nice Italian tiles too; not rubbish tiles.

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for your comments. I’m sorry I didnt offer much information on my plans!

The particular house I was looking at is next door to the house we are currently renting. We will be renting for the next year or two, so renovating from next door would be pretty convenient. The model we are looking at buying is a 3 bedroom Bega. I would obviously get a building report done before I considered buying it but from my understanding this particular house is a steel frame so rearranging internally wouldnt be too much of a problem because in the steel frame houses/truss roofs, none of the walls are structural. So my plan would be to knock down all the internal walls seperating the kitchen/dining/laundry had have a big open plan living/kitchen area (exactly what they have done in our current house). If the walls aren’t structural I could do this work myself (from the comfort of our house next door!!!).

As far as the asbestos goes, the external asbestos board can be removed pretty easily. I have done an asbestos course which allows me to safely remove asbestos (through my work), and i know in the ACT you can remove 10sqm per week yourself and dispose of it at the tip for free. As long as you wear the appropriate PPE it’s not really a huge risk to your health. So my plan would be to slowly remove sections of the asbestos cladding and have the walls insulated and then reclad in weatherboard. This is what they have done in the house we are currently living in and it looks great. The house has corrogated iron roofing so this would not need to be replaced (although I would want to replace it eventually).

As far as renovating the kitchen/bathrooms, I was planning on utlizing the newly opened IKEA to buy a kit kitchen and install ourselves. A really nice IKEA kitchen only costs around $10,000. A bathroom can be renovated for $10,000 pretty easily if you are savy. I have found an amazing wholesale tile place in Sydney that sells nice tiles for pretty cheap- my girlfriend just bought all the tiles for her bathroom reno for about $1,000 and her and her mum are doing the tiling themselves- they are amazing and have offered to help me!

I would prefer to extend forward because as some people have mentioned, the blocks in Narrabundah are on average only 465sqm. I would rather keep as much of the backyard as possible.

Architecturally, the extension would just be an exact replica of the current facade, just brought out a few extra metres- enough to fit an extra bedroom. This would give more room in the middle of the house (where one of the bedrooms is currently) to add to the open plan dining area. Perhaps I am being nieve, but I can’t imagine this would be too difficult???

I really appriciate all your comments!!

Southmouth said :

I have done 4 renos in the last 12 years. My advice is:
Buy a place that you won’t have to extend, don’t think about living in it until it is finished ( especially if you have kids), spend your money on kitchen and bathroom (s) and don’t think that you can do a trade quality job of any appearance tasks like tiling or plastering. Renos can be a good stepping stone but you lose a lot of years of your life if you try to work and do the weekend reno thing

Good advice.
I could add that condition of the floors should be examined, especially levels.
The cost of levelling a slab floor to facilitate tiling or wood (solid or engineered) is horrendous.
Also, if water pipes are located under a slab get them re-routed through the roof-space. It’s heart-braking to do a new floor only to jack-hammer it up to locate and repair a leaky water pipe later on.
Ensure quality wet sealing is done in appropriate areas.
In the kitchen, get good quality high performance exhaust hood over the hot plates.

I should have said, after living in one of these houses, is that they are very much lacking in insulation, unless a previous owner has rectified this. The government put some thin bats in the ceiling, but that’s all. If you buy one of these houses, do open it up on the northern side as rubaiyat suggested, but then insulate the walls, under the floor and add more in the ceiling. I never bothered to do more than the basic renovation (kitchen, bathroom, carpet and painting), as I was saving for a solar house, but ideally have the outside asbestos cement removed, stuff the walls with insulation and then re-clad the house. Don’t be stupidly ‘fashionable’ and pull up the carpet and polish the floors (the old floors in these old houses do polish up well) and then leave it at that. Carpet with good underlay is insulation. When I put down carpet with good underlay it made the house warmer. I didn’t, but should have, also insulated under the floor. If money is tight you could do this yourself, but do wear a good mask, as it’s dusty under there. I always wondered, to save money, if I should have collected the polystyrene boxes from the market and layered them under the floor boards as free insulation. This would have taken time, collecting enough, but eventually it would have been done.
I didn’t double glaze the windows, but went the cheaper route of using ‘winter windows’; a plastic layer over the windows. The old wooden window frames (these old windows give character to the house) gave a good gap between the plastic layer and the glass. Unfortunately, a previous owner had replaced some of these with aluminium windows which let the heat out faster than the original wooden framed windows, and there was no gap to add the plastic film layer, without building another frame first. If you open up the northern side of the house you could consider double glazing, and here wooden frames offer the best insulation, and go with the era of the house. Don’t use aluminium frames, unless there is something to stop the thermal bridge between the inside and outside. I have been told and was given the figures to back this up, insulation wise, that a single glazed wooden framed window is better than a double glazed aluminium window without something to stop the flow of heat through the frame. I bet most builders that supply double glazed aluminium windows (likely the cheapest as standard) won’t tell you that, or that the gap between the glass in their units might not be enough. If you can’t afford double glazing, get very good windows covers, such as honey-combed blinds or thick curtains with a good backing plus pelmets. Even with double glazing, another layer is necessary. It’s difficult to have too much insulation.
If I were buying another of these houses, I would prefer to buy a Bega rather than a Mallee, as they have less asbestos cement. The Begas have plaster walls in the bedrooms and loungeroom, while the Mallees are all asbestos cement. Also, the Begas have a metal roof, while I think the Mallees are asbestos cement. They both have asbestos cement in the wet areas and outside walls. Some of the houses have hardwood frames and some have metal frames. My Bega had hardwood frames, so I’m guessing you were looking at a Mallee style house.
However, without insulation, at least the rooms are small and it’s not much area to heat. Because of this, and that I only heated the room I was in, my heating bill was still less than most people’s. But it would be more comfortable to insulate. As per example of this, my new house, with it’s good insulation, takes less to heat the much larger living room than the tiny loungeroom of the Narrabundah cottage I had. However, compared to most housing out there, the Narrabundah cottage living space, being small, stacked up well, but considering most housing out there, this wasn’t difficult.

I have done 4 renos in the last 12 years. My advice is:
Buy a place that you won’t have to extend, don’t think about living in it until it is finished ( especially if you have kids), spend your money on kitchen and bathroom (s) and don’t think that you can do a trade quality job of any appearance tasks like tiling or plastering. Renos can be a good stepping stone but you lose a lot of years of your life if you try to work and do the weekend reno thing

rubaiyat said, “One thing I tell everyone is find the sunny wall and open it up to Canberra’s excellent climate”
That’s why I eventually sold that house and had a solar house built. I now let the sun warm my house for free.

rubaiyat said :

Finding a competent carpenter is not easy but key to these projects. I had one for my Dulwich Hill house and he was a gem to work with, but doubt I could get him down to Canberra even if I paid for his accomodation. Locally I have had more disappointment with tradespeople than satisfaction and it is an endless source of concern.

Finding decent trades in Canberra is difficult. We’ve used lots of different tradies, and found a few good ones, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

I cannot believe the way so many tradies seem to have multiple jobs going, and seem to need to travel from one end of town to the other to keep checking and working on their jobs.

When I find a tradie who does what they say they will do, when they say they will do it, for the quoted price and to a decent standard I hang on to them.

Maya123 said :

rubaiyat, most plot sizes of Narrabundah fibro cottages are about 450sq metres. There are the rare larger blocks of land of over 600sq. metres, but not many. The Bega three bedroom house I had was about 99 sq.metres. There is usually room for extension back and front, and possibly on the sides, depending how the house is sited on the block. Some of the houses have been extended. The original kitchens were separate rooms, and mine was squarish in shape, so unless major renovations are done, such as knocking down walls, the cheapest renovation would be to stick to this shape, rather than a gallery kitchen. Even, as was done in my house, if the wall is knocked down between the kitchen and loungeroom, the basic kitchen shape is still square. In my house this wall was plaster, so it was easy to knock down. More complicated if it is asbestos cement.
I agree with Aragornerama, that the most cost-effective route would be sticking with the existing structure.
dungfungus, I gave you actual costings, although the kitchen was done a number of years ago, and even if it cost three times that now, it is no-where near your guess of $100,000. The kitchens are small.
“Based on those costings, a brand new house (with garage) is possible then?”. This was not structural work, so no comparison. My new kitchen involved removing the old cupboards, replacing with new and using the old sink, which was still in good condition. I used Laminate bench tops, as they were the cheapest option at the time. I bought the cheapest tap-ware I could. On top of the new kitchen, I also replaced the stove (a budget one, nothing fancy) and replaced the old lino on the floor with vinyl. For the cabinets I used a recommended carpenter rather than a kitchen company, as he was a LOT cheaper, and very likely did a better job. I did get a quote from a kitchen company and they drew up a plan for the kitchen. But as they were very expensive I didn’t use them. They didn’t give me a copy of the plan, but I memorised the plan and drew it out to show the carpenter, and he had his ideas too. I think many features are standard sizes anyway. After the kitchen was replaced I had a separate person in to lay the vinyl and a tiler to lay tiles on the walls. Nice tiles, but again nothing very fancy. They might have been on special. I painted the kitchen myself. I could have saved money by doing the tiling too. Apparently cabinets can be bought ready made too to save money. This would have been another option. Although cheap materials were used my kitchen did not look shoddy, as the job was well done.
My bathroom involved replacing tiles, and a new vanity. Also some carpentry to replace a rotten bench at the end of the bath. We did this. The painting was also done by us. The large cast iron bath was still okay and didn’t need replacing. In renovation, not everything needs to be replaced. The laundry was never renovated, except when after many years living without plumbed hot water, this was added. This was also why the bathroom was renovated for a second time, as tiles needed to be removed to get pipes in behind the wall.

Finding a competent carpenter is not easy but key to these projects. I had one for my Dulwich Hill house and he was a gem to work with, but doubt I could get him down to Canberra even if I paid for his accomodation. Locally I have had more disappointment with tradespeople than satisfaction and it is an endless source of concern.

I also agree that keeping things simple not only makes your life easier and cheaper, usually it produces better results. Remember the house that simplicity is itself.

One thing I tell everyone is find the sunny wall and open it up to Canberra’s excellent climate and you will manage something that perpetually evades Canberra’s planners, architects, builders and house owners who will consider you to be a freak, possibly a witch and attempt to burn you at the stake for trying the black arts of the “bleedin’ obvious”. 😉

rubaiyat, most plot sizes of Narrabundah fibro cottages are about 450sq metres. There are the rare larger blocks of land of over 600sq. metres, but not many. The Bega three bedroom house I had was about 99 sq.metres. There is usually room for extension back and front, and possibly on the sides, depending how the house is sited on the block. Some of the houses have been extended. The original kitchens were separate rooms, and mine was squarish in shape, so unless major renovations are done, such as knocking down walls, the cheapest renovation would be to stick to this shape, rather than a gallery kitchen. Even, as was done in my house, if the wall is knocked down between the kitchen and loungeroom, the basic kitchen shape is still square. In my house this wall was plaster, so it was easy to knock down. More complicated if it is asbestos cement.
I agree with Aragornerama, that the most cost-effective route would be sticking with the existing structure.
dungfungus, I gave you actual costings, although the kitchen was done a number of years ago, and even if it cost three times that now, it is no-where near your guess of $100,000. The kitchens are small.
“Based on those costings, a brand new house (with garage) is possible then?”. This was not structural work, so no comparison. My new kitchen involved removing the old cupboards, replacing with new and using the old sink, which was still in good condition. I used Laminate bench tops, as they were the cheapest option at the time. I bought the cheapest tap-ware I could. On top of the new kitchen, I also replaced the stove (a budget one, nothing fancy) and replaced the old lino on the floor with vinyl. For the cabinets I used a recommended carpenter rather than a kitchen company, as he was a LOT cheaper, and very likely did a better job. I did get a quote from a kitchen company and they drew up a plan for the kitchen. But as they were very expensive I didn’t use them. They didn’t give me a copy of the plan, but I memorised the plan and drew it out to show the carpenter, and he had his ideas too. I think many features are standard sizes anyway. After the kitchen was replaced I had a separate person in to lay the vinyl and a tiler to lay tiles on the walls. Nice tiles, but again nothing very fancy. They might have been on special. I painted the kitchen myself. I could have saved money by doing the tiling too. Apparently cabinets can be bought ready made too to save money. This would have been another option. Although cheap materials were used my kitchen did not look shoddy, as the job was well done.
My bathroom involved replacing tiles, and a new vanity. Also some carpentry to replace a rotten bench at the end of the bath. We did this. The painting was also done by us. The large cast iron bath was still okay and didn’t need replacing. In renovation, not everything needs to be replaced. The laundry was never renovated, except when after many years living without plumbed hot water, this was added. This was also why the bathroom was renovated for a second time, as tiles needed to be removed to get pipes in behind the wall.

You haven’t mentioned the zoning or plot size so really it is all moot.

The distance to the front boundary can be as close as 4 metres if you have a wide verge in the street. Less otherwise.

Most of your questions can be answered by reading the relevant downloadable ACT Planning codes which are fairly comprehendable even by non-professionals. Read it through section by section after finding out your zoning, which you can quickly get from All-Homes.com or the ACT maps website.

Best to totally gut the kitchen and bathroom and go for simple kit solutions installed by yourself and perhaps a professional tiler. Work to kit sizes and use large tiles where possible. You can get 600 x 1200 tiles cheaply which are brilliant splashback walls for kitchens, with few jonts and doable by amateurs as there are usually only a couple of joints to grout.

Galley kitchens are quickest and simplest to build in especially if they have a free end. All you do is butt them up to a wall at one or no-ends and line them up horizontally and vertically.

Get at least some professional help, even if it is quick sketch drawings with specs if you are not confident and have not done this before. It is very easy to lose the money you are trying to save, or be overcharged trying to create a personal vanity piece gone wrong.

All those eyesore properties being sold at a loss or below par, started as Do-It-Yourselfs only to end up as object lessons as to why your day job is not in building/design. Unfortunately as a nation we have not learnt that lesson.

I’m far from an expert, but it seems like the most cost-effective route would be sticking with the existing structure. Replacing lighting, flooring and curtains, along with upgrading the kitchen, bathrooms and garden would be a significant improvement and probably not too expensive. Maybe repaint the walls and add or enlarge a window or two and you’ve got yourself a nice house!

Judging by your questions it appears this will be the first renovation you guys will do.

And as such it is a huge risk. To buy a small old place that needs a Reno, without any contacts or experience, or any idea whatsoever on how much things will cost is a recipe for disaster.

The other issue is, once you have bought it you are kinda committed to renovating and the tradies will smell that out a mile away and charge to the hill.

Also because it’s a small place, you won’t be able to live in it whilst it’s done. So that complicates things.

In all honesty I would give it a miss and just look for something already done albeit for a higher price.

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

You are dreaming.
$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry and the rest of the place will look shabby then.
Knock it down and rebuild.

I used to live in one of those houses. Admittedly quite a few years ago, but I had a complete new paid for kitchen put in for about $3,500. Not through a kitchen company – they wanted a LOT more – but through a carpenter who was recommended to me. About two years ago the bathroom was renovated by us. New tiles (old stock, sold cheap) and new vanity. I can’t remember the cost, but likely under $2,000. However, I paid extra to get some asbestos removed. Costs for the kitchen would be more now, but $100,000 is a made up fantasy figure.

It’s certainly possible to renovate on the cheap if money is the biggest issue. For me, though, I was more concerned about getting a quality result in a sensible period of time, and didn’t have the time or inclination to do the work myself.

Most people won’t have the time, skills, patience of skill to achieve a renovation for bottom dollar.

I would think Kitchens would be quite an expensive upgrade – if you are factoring in demolition, custom cabinetry, plumbing + gas fitting, tap ware, appliances, flooring etc. It’s a case of how long is a piece of string and what your perception of a ‘new’ kitchen is. Are you happy with a kit kitchen? cheap tap ware? Second hand items? I would have to agree that 100k isn’t going to get you much unless you are going to do this yourself, or have some very good friends capable to carry out the work for you.

I would suggest getting a few measurements and calling around to a few places and getting a ballpark figure before you dive into the deep end.

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

You are dreaming.
$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry and the rest of the place will look shabby then.
Knock it down and rebuild.

I used to live in one of those houses. Admittedly quite a few years ago, but I had a complete new paid for kitchen put in for about $3,500. Not through a kitchen company – they wanted a LOT more – but through a carpenter who was recommended to me. About two years ago the bathroom was renovated by us. New tiles (old stock, sold cheap) and new vanity. I can’t remember the cost, but likely under $2,000. However, I paid extra to get some asbestos removed. Costs for the kitchen would be more now, but $100,000 is a made up fantasy figure.

Based on those costings, a brand new house (with garage) is possible then?

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

You are dreaming.
$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry and the rest of the place will look shabby then.
Knock it down and rebuild.

I used to live in one of those houses. Admittedly quite a few years ago, but I had a complete new paid for kitchen put in for about $3,500. Not through a kitchen company – they wanted a LOT more – but through a carpenter who was recommended to me. About two years ago the bathroom was renovated by us. New tiles (old stock, sold cheap) and new vanity. I can’t remember the cost, but likely under $2,000. However, I paid extra to get some asbestos removed. Costs for the kitchen would be more now, but $100,000 is a made up fantasy figure.

Sorry, that was unclear. I have now read the original question. I replied too quickly. The fantasy comment was directed at dungfungus’ comment, “$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry”, not the cost of the whole project. I am sure a bathroom, laundry and kitchen makeover could cost $100,000 for the Rolls Royce version, but from experience it doesn’t need to cost anything like that. These rooms in the Narrabundah cottages are small remember.
I don’t know how close to the front boundary extensions can go, but my neighbour’s house went further forward on the block than mine.
My Narrabundah house had hardwood frames. There are basically two styles of the old Narrabundah houses, Bega and Marlee style houses, and they each come in two and three bedroom versions. The Bega was the slightly better version, in my opinion, and the house I had, with an inside toilet. The Marlee had the toilet on an outside verandah, but most of these have now been covered in and made part of the house. The Bega houses have plaster walls with straw in the bedrooms and living room, while the Marlee have fibro in these walls (asbestos cement). You can see the vertical strips in the Marlee. Both houses have fibro in the wet areas and outside walls, although originally the Marlees had three ply outside. The Begas have metal roofs, while I think the Malees have asbestos cement roofs.
Asbestos removal is not cheap. I had the asbestos walls removed from a garage for about $2,000 (I think, from memory).

You won’t get an extension for $100k.

I’ve renovated a few places now, and would suggest you replace wet areas (ie bathroom, kitchen, laundry) with simple but modern tiles, furniture and fittings, making sure you get it wet sealed properly, replace carpet and living areas floorboards/tiles (as applicable), repaint and replace window dressings.

Done sensibly, with reasonable fittings and proper attention to quality, this should cost somewhere between $40-50k. Combined with a tidy up of the garden and perhaps a lick of paint on the outside and you can add a decent amount to the value of the property, as well as making it much nicer to live in.

Once you start moving internal walls you will need to deal with structure, not to mention removal of bonded asbestos. This can get really expensive very quickly. For a decent extension and internal renovation you are looking at upwards of $200k for a proper job. You will also have to deal with the issue of rebalancing the living space, so things like your kitchen and living areas are appropriately sized for the number of people potentially living there.

I can’t imagine you’d get what you describe for $100,000, especially when you’re dealing with asbestos, and i wouldn’t be surprised if you encounter unforeseen structural/electrical/other problems given the age of the house.

Even if you were to undertake the renovations you described, everything would be a compromise, and you’d still probably end up with a pretty awful old house.

If it was really run down, you’d probably be better off knocking it down and rebuilding. At least then you’d end up with a modern home.

dungfungus said :

You are dreaming.
$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry and the rest of the place will look shabby then.
Knock it down and rebuild.

Really!!
On a budget you should be able to do kitchen & bathroom for under 30k. They’re not talking marble finishes and hi-end appliances!

dungfungus said :

You are dreaming.
$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry and the rest of the place will look shabby then.
Knock it down and rebuild.

I used to live in one of those houses. Admittedly quite a few years ago, but I had a complete new paid for kitchen put in for about $3,500. Not through a kitchen company – they wanted a LOT more – but through a carpenter who was recommended to me. About two years ago the bathroom was renovated by us. New tiles (old stock, sold cheap) and new vanity. I can’t remember the cost, but likely under $2,000. However, I paid extra to get some asbestos removed. Costs for the kitchen would be more now, but $100,000 is a made up fantasy figure.

You are dreaming.
$100K will get you a new kitchen, bathroom and laundry and the rest of the place will look shabby then.
Knock it down and rebuild.

Renovation budget looks too skinny for the works you describe.

You should clarify whether you are doing the work yourself, contracting out individual tasks or contracting out the whole job, as these will change the final cost by an order of magnitude.
Also ACTPLA tend to be a bit more sensitive about changes to the front or street-facing façade of the house compared with extensions to the rear.