29 August 2023

Contrary to appearances, Zed's not dead just yet. Is this really what ACT Liberals want?

| Genevieve Jacobs
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Mark Parton and Zed Seselja

Would ACT Liberals like Mark Parton welcome Zed Seselja’s return to politics? Photo: Cassandra Choake.

Senator Zed Seselja’s defeat at the last federal election was a major national story. It was a perfect fit with the narrative around the teals, with extra traction because he was defeated by former Wallabies captain David Pocock.

The yarn had it all: the Darth Vader of ACT politics, a master of the dark political arts, defeated by a charismatic, committed environmental campaigner who went on to hold the balance of power in the Senate.

For actual Canberra voters, the story went deeper. Senator Seselja had consistently voted against issues like same-sex marriage against the wishes of a large majority of voters. His influence at the local level pushed the Liberals hard to the right in a party room numbers game that seemed bizarrely counter-productive in the most consistently progressive electorate in Australia.

But to misquote Pulp Fiction, it seems that Zed is far from dead (baby).

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Media reporting and local contacts say Opposition leader Peter Dutton, himself a stalwart of the right, told party members at a fundraising function this month that Mr Seselja’s race is not yet run. The former senator retains the support of other factional stalwarts in the federal party room.

Separately, Region has been told that of the roughly 500-plus ACT Liberal Party members, Mr Seselja controls around 300. He also has strong support among Young Liberals who have fought bitterly over the party’s direction with outcomes like the great ‘corflute wars’ of 2020.

A low point in the party’s history, the incident resulted in an investigation, an apology to candidate Candice Burch whose signs were slashed, and two Young Liberals quitting the party, including President Ben Dennehy, who worked for Senator Seselja at the time.

This all takes on new significance as the Albanese government considers extending the ACT’s senate representation – an important move that would recognise the Territory’s significant under-representation in the States’ house.

While the ACT has only two senators, it’s less likely that David Pocock would be unseated by a re-heated Seselja. Pocock would face stiffer competition from a moderate Liberal better suited to local supporters who are disenchanted by factional brawling.

But moves afoot to bring the Territory’s senate representation to four open the way for Mr Seselja, currently working as a consultant, to exercise his political muscle and force through pre-selection.

In doing so, he could significantly dent the prospects of a more centrist candidate and would almost certainly take pole position on the Liberal ticket.

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There are plenty of other signs that the local Liberal Party’s deep rift has not healed.

Assembly leader Elizabeth Lee has made her intention to heave the party back to the centre very clear, but her deputy Jeremy Hanson continues to focus on light rail – an issue on which Ms Lee has shown little interest – and his strenuous opposition to the Voice referendum, where she is a committed Yes voter (along with Kate Carnell, the last Liberal chief minister).

Mr Seselja’s focus has always been on the party room and, no doubt, factional allies in federal parliament would warmly welcome his return to a disjointed and troubled Opposition laid waste by the teals in 2022.

But the ACT Liberal members must finally make up their minds because it’s they who must pre-select him, not his federal allies.

Does Mr Seselja accurately represent ACT Liberals’ interests? Would his return benefit ordinary Canberra voters? Will the factional wars he spearheaded ever be over?

As the Legislative Assembly’s Liberals look down the barrel of a quarter century out of power with an election looming next year, a Lazarus-like return from Mr Seselja does not seem like a helpful answer to their problems.

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Tony Mansfield1:22 pm 05 Nov 23

Great article, Zed is out for himself and only represents the extreme right wing; not a popular philosophy in the ACT.

Everyone here has said it already – the ACT doesn’t want Zed back, as he was only operating to progress his own ambitions rather than representing this Territory. We had the chance to vote him out and we did, and Pocock has done extraordinarily well in a relatively short time since.

But the elephant in the room is that he has support from other senior Liberals. The fact that the majority of the ACT doesn’t want him “representing” us anymore says much for how his party supporters (including Dutton) view the senatorial role for the ACT – it’s apparently not about the people, but about the party.

I wouldn’t underestimate Zed StuartM! Zed continues to have a very rabid and powerful right wing following here in Canberra. They were the voters who voted for him at successive elections and continue to support him. His supporters include members of the Federal Liberal party and their staff, the Canberra Liberals, the extreme right wing, church going voters who live in our suburbs and the ACT Young Liberals. Young Liberal members mostly work as party staffers and some worked for Zed. One of them was implicated in the “Corflutegate” affair in which she was fillmed destroying and slashing Candice Burch’s corflutes at the last ACT election. She now works for a well-known Liberal senator who once publicly threatened to spread sordid rumours about female Labor staffers. Yes I know, it is all rather unsavoury and it generated much media attention at the time and she is now about to marry into the Zeselja family.

Lefty Boomer10:59 am 30 Aug 23

Please, let Zed run…he’s the gift that keeps on giving!

HiddenDragon7:43 pm 29 Aug 23

Some aspects of Zed’s experience and corporate memory might be useful for a depleted federal Opposition, but running him again at the next election would proclaim, very loudly, a refusal to acknowledge that there was any sort of message in the 2022 ACT Senate result.

In a town very well supplied with political tragics, many of whom seem preoccupied with the forms and language of US politics, the ACT Liberals could do worse than running a local equivalent of a primary process – which should be made as genuinely open as possible (i.e. not restricted to people who have been going to branch meetings since they were in college) – to find candidates for the next Senate and House of Reps elections.

If such a process did produce plausible candidates (particularly for the No. 1 Senate spot) that, and the process itself, would serve as symbols of positive change on the part of the ACT Liberals.

Zed Seselja is far from dead folks! Labor’s recent decision at its national conference to triple the number of territory senators and increase the power of our votes in referendums is a no brainer. There is no doubt Zed is considering a comeback. Labor’s decision provides the perfect opportunity for him to make a return and why wouldn’t he?

Peter Dutton and other senior members of the party including Liberals Michael Sukkar, Senator Michaela Cash, former disgraced minister Alan Tudge and Nationals senator Matt Canavan have endorsed Zed’s return. They recently attended a major thank you dinner event held on his behalf where they made their views known. I presume this included thanking him for losing the party’s only ACT senate seat! Peter Dutton talked up a return informing party faithful “Zed’s race is not yet run”. Members of the Canberra Liberals were also in attendance including leader Elizabeth Lee, deputy Jeremy Hanson, Mark Parton and Peter Cain.
How much more support than this does Zed need for a comeback?

Senators Matt Canavan and Michaela Cash are two of Zed’s most loyal and significant supporters. They have used their powers more ably and joyfully than most to remove and undermine our Territory’s rights, assisted and enabled by Zed Seselja and Jeremy Hanson.

I have no doubts that party supporters and Zed’s young liberal toadies are working very hard behind the scenes, possibly underhandedly, to ensure a Zed Seselja return!

‘Currently working as a consultant’. Whenever someone loses their job and pops up again as a consultant, you know they are doing the only job they can. Clearly just being his time for a comeback for the only other job he can do.

If Zeds not dead then that seat is for the Liberals. This voter will put him last even if I vote for another Liberal member. I like filling in the whole ballot paper.

GrumpyGrandpa2:19 pm 29 Aug 23

I’m not sure about this article.

Sure, Canberra as a whole is left-leaning, but to suggest that the Libs candidates (be that in the Assembly or in the Senate), should be aligned with the interests of Canberrans, implies that the other view, should not represented or heard.

The ALP only have one more seat in the Assembly than the Libs. It’s not as if the Libs have absolutely no support.

That’s why we have an Opposition. To present an alternate view; to keep the bastards honest and to hold them accountable for the benefit of the broader community.

It doesn’t matter who is in Government, it’s important to have a strong Opposition (even if it’s someone like Zed or Jeremy).

Not The Mama3:19 pm 29 Aug 23

Even though I would like to believe I am a swinging voter, In the house of representatives I have always voted for Labour – and at times Green or Democrat – which I knew was eventually a vote for the Labour candidate.

The upper house in the ACT has always been a different story: When Gary Humphries ran for the Senate in the ACT I always voted for him because I respect him and because he always argued his best for the ACT’s interests.

I have quite the opposite view about Zed Seselja, and he has a long track record of betraying his constituents to advance his own political career – both at the ACT and Federal level. He will never get my vote. I think that many others others that have voted Liberal in the Senate as I have share my view.

So are you suggesting that he has no responsibility to attempt to represent the views of the majority of voters? I understand what you are saying about the minority needing a voice too, but the trouble is, the way Zed went about representing them, it left the rest of the electorate without a voice. You do understand what democracy means, don’t you?

I’m a considerably left of centre voter, but I’d consider voting for a progressive Liberal Party ahead of Labor simply to “keep the bastards honest”. A quarter of a century in power is too long. Time to flush the pipes. Having said that, I can’t bring myself to vote for Zed’s conservative brand of Liberal.

Not The Mama3:25 pm 29 Aug 23

ricketyclik – we’ve both said the same thing – but you said it better and with less words. Even so I think the candidate’s personal traits are important – we shouldn’t just be voting for one political party or another, and Mr Seseldja’s track record is appalling.

Balance needed5:40 pm 29 Aug 23

Ricketyclick speaks eloquently for me as well.

@ricketyclik
“A quarter of a century in power is too long. Time to flush the pipes.”
You do realise that Senators are federal not ACT politicians don’t you?

What has “Zed” every delivered, leave him in the dustbin.

The push for more ACT and NT Senators looks to simply be an attempt to get more left leaning/progressive representation into the Senate balance rather than any logic around “fairness”.

People who think we need more Senators always point to Tasmania’s population and representation as a reason but never seem to mention the other states. Nor the original point of the Senate’s numbers to prevent larger states dominating the smaller ones by giving them equal numbers.

On population %, NSW, Vic, Qld and WA all have worse representation per capita than the ACT. The NT is only worse than Tas.

Why exactly do we need more politicians?

@chewy14
You mention “representation per capita” as if it is relevant in the determination of Senator numbers, which unlike the HoR, it is not.
Your objection to increasing the ACT/NT Senate representation seems to hinge on your concern that it will lead to greater progressive representation – yet the article suggests that it would present a way back for the very conservative Mr Zed Seselja.
I’d be
Interested to hear why you think it’s logical for the Territories to have 1/6 of the Senate representation rather than the proposal to increase the numbers to 4 – which equals 1/3 of the states thus maintaining that clear delineation between states and Territories.

Justsaying,
I mention per capita representation because that’s typically what’s used to support such proposals, almost exclusively with reference to Tasmania’s representation. Perhaps you should answer the question at the end of my last comment.

“Your objection to increasing the ACT/NT Senate representation seems to hinge on your concern that it will lead to greater progressive representation “

Incorrect.

My concern is that it’s only being proposed specifically by left leaning and progressive people with the sole intention of helping their own side(s) of politics, rather than fixing some fundamental issue of mis or under representation from certain areas of the country or a governance problem for the country.

Yes, proposed increases would lead to a potential return of someone like Zed but would also benefit the Greens/ALP and other left leaning groups more. Surely you can see that based on historic voting patterns?

“Interested to hear why you think it’s logical for the Territories to have 1/6 of the Senate representation rather than the proposal to increase the numbers to 4 – which equals 1/3 of the states thus maintaining that clear delineation between states and Territories.”

The two territories aren’t states, so it’s irrelevant what percentage of state representation we have compared to them. We used to have zero senators and we clearly aren’t under represented now as I’ve shown, so what reasoning would you apply to give us more senators? How exactly would the governance of the whole country be improved by more ACT and NT Senators? And why wouldn’t the same reasoning not lead to more Senators from the states as well?

The original constitutional reasoning for setting up the states with an equal number of senators doesn’t apply to us and in reality doesn’t even apply fully to the states anymore. You don’t fix a problem elsewhere by extending the scope of that problem.

@chewy14
You answered your own question when you said the logic of fairness. While you reject the notion, many Canberrans are of the opinion that it’s fair and reasonable to increase Territory Senator numbers to address their perception of under representation. Obviously you don’t agree – we’ll surprise, surprise, the fact that you don’t agree doesn’t make their view wrong.
“ We used to have zero senators and we clearly aren’t under represented now as I’ve shown” How have you shown this? That you offer an opinion doesn’t make it fact.
You cling to the concept of the Territories not being states (well duh!!!! That’s why they are called Territories) as if that is some immutable rationale for not changing Territory representation. You do realise that the number of state Senators is governed by legislation just as the number of Territory Senators is legislated. The only thing the Constitution guarantees is equal Senate representation for each state – not the number.
So for all your huffing and puffing and the end of the day it comes down to your opinion that the number of Territory Senators should remain the same for no other reason than you attribute self serving motives to those pushing the change. No facts to support this just your opinion.

Justsaying,
That some people may think something is “unfair” isn’t a logical or evidence based reason though. As you say, it’s just an opinion.

“many Canberrans are of the opinion that it’s fair and reasonable to increase Territory Senator numbers to address their perception of under representation.”

OK, got a list of these “many” people? Has there been a poll?

Regardless, if the opinion of people who think this was to be respected, they should be able to call on some logical metrics as to why this is the case rather than just bluster and opinion? They should be able to provide actual evidence right?

I have specifically shown that on a population basis, we are over represented. Some proponents have tried to use the vast area of the NT as a reason, once again doesn’t apply here and I would argue is an extraordinarily weak argument for the NT as well.

Where exactly is the underepresentation?

What metrics are they going to use to define this claimed underrepresentation and how does it not apply to other states and territories?

“You cling to the concept of the Territories not being states (well duh!!!! That’s why they are called
Territories) as if that is some immutable rationale for not changing Territory representation”

It isn’t a “concept” it’s a fact. And it is the specific basis both constitutionally and in federal law why we are governed fundamentally different to the original federated states. The ACT only exists because of the need for a separate area for parliament. You may not like those facts but your opinion doesn’t negate them.

And why then if some “territories” need more representation, doesn’t the same logic apply to the other Australian territories? What exactly makes the ACT and NT special? Perhaps Jervis Bay and Christmas Island needs a couple of Senators to balance their underrepresentation?

If not, why not?

“You do realise that the number of state Senators is governed by legislation just as the number of Territory Senators is legislated”

And you do realise the reason why parliament can change Territory Senators by law independently of states is due to the fundamental difference between the goverancne of Territories and States within the Constitution? Thanks for pointing out the fact that I’d already made and agreeing with it.

And if you’re really dense enough not to understand the voting, let’s spell it out.

The ACT is heavily progressive. At present our Senate votes have typically voted in one ALP Senator and one Lib, with the Lib seat often challenged by the Greens or an Independent. Pocock is the first to win against the Libs, but that could easily switch back. An increase of Senators (4-6) would almost exclusively benefit the progressive side of politics, shifting the balance and locking in additional left leaning seats. Yes the Libs would get one seat, perhaps 2 with 6 Senators, but the progressives would gain more from the change.

The NT is more balanced but the next Senator voted in would have been a Green off recent voting, with another potential minor party gaining the fourth although it would be highly dependent on preference flows.

“So for all your huffing and puffing”

The irony here is burning. For all your huffing and puffing, you are yet to provide any reason why the ACT and NT need more Senators other than “some people have a perception of underepresentation”.

Perceptions aren’t reality. Logic and evidence should be supplied to support any change.

If you want to respond, actually answer the questions I’ve asked and provide some reasoning and evidence rather than your constant and deliberate avoidance.

My original question, why exactly do we need more politicians?

@chewy14
“I have specifically shown that on a population basis, we are over represented.”
Have you? You discount the state of Tasmania as not being relevant in the per capita analysis – yet it specifically proves the reality of per capita underrepresentation of the territories.

Nice straw man argument introducing the other territories … especially as Christmas Island is in the NT Federal electorate of Lingiari and Jervis Bay is in the ACT Federal electorate of Fenner. So thank you for confirming that those citizens are underrepresented – which will be redressed by in increase in the Senate representation for the two territories.

I didn’t realise that the determinant for the number of Senators in the territories is based on your assessment of the political ideology of the voters. Can you point me to the legislation under which this is covered please?

“Perceptions aren’t reality.”
Is that so, chewy? Don’t you mean “perceptions aren’t reality unless I say they are”. Chewy14 on 2023/05/25 at 4:48pm: “Perceptions are reality.” – in response to my comment “Perception often overrides reality … it doesn’t make it fact”.

Which is definitely true when assessing whether or not territories are underrepresented in the Senate, as there’s no factual basis for determining under representation in the Senate Unlike the HoR where electorates have some basis in population numbers, there are no metrics for determining the number of Senators for the states or territories. So, we don’t “need” more politicians, and the proposal to increase territory Senate numbers is somewhat arbitrary. As was the original decision to allocate 6 Senators to the foundation states – progressively increasing the number to 12. Similarly the It is and will always be, for both state and territory numbers, a matter for the Parliament to decide.

“Have you? You discount the state of Tasmania as not being relevant in the per capita analysis – yet it specifically proves the reality of per capita underrepresentation of the territories.”

Ha, yes I most certainly have, did you even read my original comment? Attempting to use Tasmania only is part of the exact problem I originally mentioned. And the fact that Tasmania is so overrepresented is not a reason to extend that some problem to other areas Once again, you don’t fix an existing problem by making it worse. Here are the current per capita figures for Senate representation:

NSW: 687k per Senator
Vic: 558k per Senator
Qld: 448k per Senator
WA: 237k per Senator
ACT: 230k per Senator
SA: 152k per Senator
NT: 125k per Senator
Tas: 48k per Senator

The national average is around 350k per Senator

As above, how can anyone look at those figures and claim that the NT and ACT are underrepresented at a national level for the senate? And that those areas should specifically be increased?

It’s delusional.

But happy to hear how exactly you want to justify it, with specific mention of how it doesn’t apply to NSW, Vic, Qld and WA too.

“Nice straw man argument introducing the other territories”

How on earth is it a strawman? Bringing up other Federal territories is a direct example of areas covered under the constitution and law in the same manner as the ACT. Also hilariously you then claim that because the Federal government has lumped them into different electorates for the HOR it somehow makes it better. When in reality it means those areas get even worse direct representation for their individual needs.

You also conveniently (again) ignored the question. Why should the ACT and NT receive additional senators and other territories not? Why are they different and need special attention?

“I didn’t realise that the determinant for the number of Senators in the territories is based on your assessment of the political ideology of the voters”

Speaking of strawmen, here is an actual one. I have never claimed this so no need to lie. I claimed that left leaning and progressive people are proposing this because it would specifically benefit their side of politics.

I backed this up with analysis of voting trends and once again, you’ve ignored it because it doesn’t suit you. Do you ever actually respond to the points made?

“is that so, chewy? Don’t you mean “perceptions aren’t reality unless I say they are”. Chewy14 on 2023/05/25 at 4:48pm: “Perceptions are reality.” – in response to my comment “Perception often overrides reality … it doesn’t make it fact”.”

Are you honestly trying to make my points? That comment was about individual opinions of bias, which has or needs no factual basis.

The allocation of representatives to a democratic parliament is not arbitrary, you can easily set and apply principles to determine appropriate representation.

For example: One citizen, one vote, one value.

Or do you believe some votes should be worth more than others?

“As was the original decision to allocate 6 Senators to the foundation states”

They didn’t just randomly decide to give each state an equal number of representatives. It was based on principles and detailed arguments to achieve the good governance of the country. The exact type of arguments I’ve said would need to be provided to claim an increase of ACT and NT Senators is a good idea.

As I’ve already stated and you avoided responding to:

How exactly would the governance of the whole country be improved by more ACT and NT Senators?

What current failure of governance would it be fixing for those areas?

And why wouldn’t the same reasoning not lead to more Senators from the states as well or promote a revamp of the constitutional provisions that set these numbers through a referendum?

The original constitutional reasoning for setting up the states with an equal number of senators doesn’t apply to the ACT and in reality doesn’t even apply fully to the states anymore. It’s an anachronism. You don’t fix a problem elsewhere by extending the scope of that problem.

So far your best efforts seem to be that some people have an opinion and that the setting of Senate numbers is somewhat arbitrary.

I completely disagree and have explained in detail with numbers and analysis why. If you want to present some principles and arguments that would lead to a support for more ACT and NT Senators, once again, I’m happy to hear it.

But repeating, because you seem to ignore everything written, if you want to make those arguments, you would have to explain how they don’t apply to other states or territories equally.

@chewy14
So the figures show that the ACT is ranked 5th in the per capita representation of Senators in states and territories – above Tasmania AND South Australia. Hardly an indication of over representation which you claim to have proven.

“But happy to hear how exactly you want to justify it, with specific mention of how it doesn’t apply to NSW, Vic, Qld and WA too.”
It’s fair to suggest that in comparison to the national average, NSW, Vic and Qld are underrepresented. However, that’s covered by the Constitution which mandates all states to have the same number of Senators. The same Constitutional mandate doesn’t apply to the territories, so there’s no absolute or rule for determining the number of territory Senators.

“Bringing up other Federal territories is a direct example of areas covered under the constitution and law in the same manner as the ACT”
What utter tripe. Christmas Island and Jervis Bay do not have their own parliaments nor do they enact legislation. So just stick to realities rather than engage in fantasy.

“I claimed that left leaning and progressive people are proposing this because it would specifically benefit their side of politics.
I backed this up with analysis of voting trends and once again, you’ve ignored it because it doesn’t suit you.”
You put forward your opinion of the rationale behind the Labor conference’s move to increase the number of territory Senators – yet you ignore the benefit it would present to Mr Seselja’s move to reenter the Senate (which is actually the theme of this article). It seems to me there’s benefits to both sides of politics in increasing the number of territory Senators, however you are just fixated on the left and your lack of objectivity is ample reason for me to ignore your point.

“The allocation of representatives to a democratic parliament is not arbitrary, you can easily set and apply principles to determine appropriate representation.”
If that’s the case in the Senate, chewy, perhaps you can detail the principles used to determine the appropriate level of representation for each state at 12 Senators and the territories at 2?

As for the original number of Senators allocated to the states, what “principles and detailed arguments to achieve the good governance of the country” were applied? Why 6? Similarly, why was it deemed the appropriate representation for the territories at the time, was 2?

“How exactly would the governance of the whole country be improved by more ACT and NT Senators?”
We are talking about representation of the territories which may reduce the influence of the states. It stands to reason that if there are more territory Senators then the opportunity exists for the citizens of the territories to have a bigger say in federal legislation. “Or do you believe some votes should be worth more than others?” Well you seem to be fine with the fact that in the Senate the votes of some states count for more than the territories – especially the ACT. But I guess that’s ok because it suits your narrative.

“And why wouldn’t the same reasoning not lead to more Senators from the states”
Ummm simply because we are talking about the territory underrepresentation. If you want to campaign for the states go for it – but not currently on the agenda.

“So the figures show that the ACT is ranked 5th in the per capita representation of Senators in states and territories – above Tasmania AND South Australia. Hardly an indication of over representation which you claim to have proven.”

Significantly higher representation than the national average and more than all but 2 states. Most definitely proven to anyone with even the remotest notion of sense.

“It’s fair to suggest that in comparison to the national average, NSW, Vic and Qld are underrepresented”

You then even agree with me, making your point above even stranger.

“What utter tripe. Christmas Island and Jervis Bay do not have their own parliaments nor do they enact legislation. So just stick to realities rather than engage in fantasy.”

Yes, of course you want to ignore the direct comparisons that show how silly your claims are. Ironic for you to use the fact that the NT and ACT already have significant representation as a reason for more.

“It seems to me there’s benefits to both sides of politics in increasing the number of territory Senators, however you are just fixated on the left and your lack of objectivity is ample reason for me to ignore your point.”

Well no, the data completely disagrees with your point as I’ve shown. And I would be saying the exact same thing if right wing politicians were trying to gerrymander the parliament for their own benefit. That’s what objectivity looks like compared to your lack of.

“If that’s the case in the Senate, chewy, perhaps you can detail the principles used to determine the appropriate level of representation for each state at 12 Senators and the territories at 2?”

The principles were set in the design of the senate and how federation occurred, perhaps you should read a book if you’re so uninformed.

The Senate is both a house of review but also designed to protect states rights from dominance by having equal numbers. Once again, I’ve already said some of this rationale is no longer relevant but you don’t fix an existing problem by making it worse as you continually ignore. The state numbers are set so as to be as close to half of the HOR member numbers. Basic stuff.

I will agree with you that giving the ACT and NT 2 Senators was arbitrary and reflected no real notion of improving governance. 2 was chosen to limit the bias, typically meaning there would be 1 Senator from each major party. As I’ve already shown, this was an overepresentation based on population.

“We are talking about representation of the territories which may reduce the influence of the states. It stands to reason that if there are more territory Senators then the opportunity exists for the citizens of the territories to have a bigger say in federal legislation.”

Yes, this is the point. You can’t talk about Territory representation without considering how it impacts the power balance at a national level. The Senate is meant to govern all Australians, not to be biased to benefit specific regions or political parties.

“Well you seem to be fine with the fact that in the Senate the votes of some states count for more than the territories”

You do love your strawmen don’t you? I’ve specifically said that the overrepresentation of places like Tasmania is a problem that leads to poor national governance outcomes. For the millionth time if you can read, you don’t fix an existing problem by making it worse.

“Ummm simply because we are talking about the territory underrepresentation”

Which I’ve conclusively shown doesn’t exist unless you want to ignore all the facts. It’s really not that hard but I suppose you’re welcome to your own opinion despite all the evidence showing it to be wrong.

@chewy14
You haven’t proven a thing … if you think using terms like “proven to anyone with even the remotest notion of sense” is meant to convince me yet again you are sadly mistaken.

You agree that the decision to give the territories 2 Senators was arbitrary yet you do no accept the same fot the decision to grant the states 12 Senators was also abitrary.

So, I’ll make it simple. Tell me what absolute measure or formula was used to determine the representation for the states?

Yes, but not what Labor want. But who cares what Labor want.

It has nothing to do with what Labor wants. It has everything to do with what the voters of the ACT want. They made it clear they were not happy with a representative who was not listening to them.

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