Creation of a Marist Ex-students and Families lobby Group - Interest sought

No worries JB – I think I just made myself a hypocrite on another thread! D’oh!

Thanks Mick.

Skid – you are quote right. I go out of my way not to personally attack people on this forum.

Jb:
I think the “stupid old fart with disgraceful dribble falling out of his mouth” he refers to is actually the Brother from the news, not Canberra Gardener.
Unless either I’m missing something, or you can see something I don’t, such as CanberraGardener being brother.anthony.fisher@vatican.va

You must have misread – I have not insulted anyone personally.

I think you are referring to my response to Canberra Gardener where I am saying Bishop Anthony Fisher is a stupid old fart?

Mick,

I’m asking you to desist from insulting other commenters personally.

Canberra Gardener,

Discraceful dribble falling out of the mouth of a stupid old fart.

Obviously this guy thinks Kostka is a victim, much as was my perception 30 odd years ago.

clueless70,

Yes, agreed, the media is looking to gain ratings points by focusing on the pedophilia. It’s what sells and it sells lots. I’d be inclined to hope we can exploit this to the nth degree and get to a point where we can get a quicker and fair resolution to the civil cases in order to get it out of the media. If the media wants to help that outcome then fine.

The issue of the violence is a different kettle of fish. Should it be? I can’t say I have come to a definite conclusion on that question but I lean towards no, abuse is abuse (is abuse). Abuse should probably be measured in outcomes and that get difficult.

A friend of mine from Marist in that heyday of violence sought legal advice re suing the school for the beatings he received from teachers there. The lawyer he spoke to explained that the first hurdle is that hitting kids was legal, and accetible back then. You could argue extremities but apparently you would need a case where the victim was hospitalised to get close to having a worthy legal suit.

So is there another alternative? I’d surely like to see the church (or just Marist, or whomever) form an enquiry into these violent actions and at least seek victims and apologise to them.

Are ther any lawyers reading this who can shed more light on the legal implications of the teachers hitting kids at Marist? How about the example above of the PE teacher strangling a student?

Did anyone see the news about Bishop Anthony Fisher’s insensitive, ill informed disrespect for victims of clergy abuse? Is the Catholic Church trying to further abuse and inflict more pain on victims?

ABC Online
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/16/2305964.htm

“On Wednesday afternoon Bishop Anthony Fisher expressed his disappointment that the issue had been raised during World Youth Day.

“Happily, I think most of Australia was enjoying delighting in the beauty and goodness of these young people and the hope – the hope for us doing these sorts of things better in the future – as we saw last night, rather than, than dwelling crankily, as a few people are doing, on old wounds,” he said.”

DWELLING CRANKILY…….it this idiot kidding himself.

He is upset that we should dare ask for answers for decades of child sexual abuse, a cronic culture of child rape and coverups within the Catholic Church just because the boss is in town.

Who does he think he is. If the Australian Catholic Church leaders dealt with this properly in the first place, or at the very least allowed fair and justifiable recompense, we wouldn’t need to DWELL ON OLD WOUNDS.

This is further proof that the Catholic Church believes that Child rape and sexual abuse is ok within their walls.

Dominic, thanks for your further opinion, and I appreciate the later reappraisal.

Your account of being attacked with a baseball bat in Year 6 appalls me. I find it throws a great deal of light on your attitude to what I have so far said about violence. I am astounded that this is a detail that you felt you might ‘just add’ – it transforms the meaning of what you said earlier, at least in my eyes.

I now understand why you would be sceptical of claims of wrongdoing that were of less than baseball-bat intensity. However, the bar for your tolerance of violence was set very high by that incident, and, I expect, by others like it. How do you suppose these experiences have affected your views about adult-child violence?

I don’t see the point of trying to match you with war stories blow-for-blow. What would we be aiming at – to excuse one wrongdoing by appeal to another? I never got the baseball bat, am heartily glad of it, and I am sorry it happened to you.

I’d like to restate a few things, I hope entertainingly and informatively.

First, my public comments have been directed to the media handling of abuse cases. Sexual misconduct at Marist is definitely a story, but it isn’t the whole story. The media has been selective and cheaply emotive, if not hysterical, in its reporting. It has played into a tendency for people’s brains to shut down at the mention of ‘child’ and ‘sex’, or ‘child’ and ‘pedophile’, in the same sentence.

I haven’t criticised people who were manipulated, lied to, threatened and physically assaulted on any part of their bodies by staff at Marist. My argument is that bashing and related violent conduct should have parity with dick-fondling and related unconsenting sexual conduct. My personal opinion is that this is putting the case kindly for the kiddy bashers and I am suspicious of the absence of interest in adult-child violence in the media. I have never said one form of misconduct excuses another form of misconduct.

Second, I have argued that Kostka/Lyons is a creature of specific, complex social circumstances. The designation ‘kiddy fiddler’ or ‘petafile’ is diagnostically useless. Not one interesting or useful thing can be learned from it. Kostka/Lyons will continue to appear in schools and other institutions until we change the practices of our culture. I identify the forces at work in the creation of a Kostka as: sexual ignorance; shame and guilt focussed on sexuality; parental absence or neglect; masculine identity built around homophobia and trial-by-violence; institutional group-think and intellectual conformism; and religious dogma.

Finally, I believe that it is not a fact of nature that young people have no autonomy, individual will or powers of discrimination, making them uniquely vulnerable to sexual predation. The most proper and poetic response to Kostka’s hand down one’s pants was to kick him in his fat gut and ridicule his pathetic actions. Why did this never happen? If a young high school student could not have kicked Kostka in the guts or in the elephantine balls, gouged his eyes, or taken any other evasive action necessary to give the loud and clear message that Kostka’s attentions were unwanted, what forces stood in that boy’s way? See above and note the extent to which those forces were already at work inside the victims’ heads.

There is a tangled web of bullshit to unweave before clear thinking about Kostka and his like begins to be possible. We can start by avoiding anti-petafile rants since they are so easy and so pointless. We can describe our boyhood experiences as accurately as possible. They are a great source of information. It would already be a better world than this in which a man could relate his childhood experiences of chronic fear, paranoia, and dread uncertainty as to when the next punch, whipping or worse was coming without feeling obliged to use tones of chirpy chumminess, or to imply with a false grin on his face that these experiences were not only normal, but funny.

The only cost of telling the truth about such things would be our habitual hypocrisy about childhood, schooling, manhood and other fundamental elements in social life.

I guess that’s the point I see both of you making:

(1) that was standard;

(2) it never should have been.

Yes, it was more “accepted” than the kiddy fiddling. However, the more I think about it, the more I believe the kiddy fiddling was also accepted, condoned, and swept under the carpet with the people who knew what was going on deciding (in some cases) “He deserved it”. I am keeping an open mind here that I might be wrong but it’s how I feel at the moment.

No, but I well remember him striding onto the playground and blowing his whistle. Woe betide anyone who didn’t instantly freeze! The dreaded finger, the sentence “Room 10”, and then two, four or six of the best (depending on how good his mood was!). And you didn’t forget it in a hurry, Jerome was probably the hardest caner I ever came across.
It didn’t particularly bother me, for one thing I was well used to the cane by then, but for some kids who weren’t, and really hadn’t done anything wrong, yeah it could be pretty bloody hard for them.

Dom: Was it Brother Jerome who did that?

Can I just add that the worst beating I ever knew of at Marist was inflicted upon myself by a teacher with a baseball bat when I was in Year 6.
I also came very close to falling into Kostka’s clutches, though I didn’t realise it at the time.

Dominic said :

I just think for the most part we should stick to what was, and still is, illegal and punishable.

I’m with Dominic…
As a student of an entirely different era, the ‘culture of violence’ (which I don’t see as an issue in the same league) issue should be seen as entirely seperate to that of Marist being a rockspider’s retreat for the better part of two decades.

Maybe something worth following up on at a later time, but not really related to the one at hand (unless you can prove it).

Dominic: That’s cool, I understand. I think you and Clueless both have valid points and I really can see where you are both coming from. As far as going against the grain, I don’t have any problem with that. I just hope you and Clueless can see you both have valid points and come to a respectful existence.

To a point, the real issue here is that we be respectful to each other and don’t personally attack people. It’s obvious this is a highly emotive topic and people are going to vent. I’d just ask that we play nice.

Mick1965, let’s just say 70’s and 80’s. If I told you exact years it wouldn’t be hard to figure out exactly who I am and as this is a contentious issue, and I am seemingly going against the grain here, I don’t particularly want abusive phone calls in the middle of the night etc.
Not suggesting you would, I’ve read your postings above and I completely sympathise with you and your fight for justice and closure.

Berraboy68, again fair comment. I saw things just like you’ve described, even copped some myself, but again I question whether they constitute a culture of violence, whether they were restricted to Marist, and whether they’re worth rehashing twenty years later.

Clueless70, on re-reading my postings I’m sorry if I’ve come on a bit strong. Your sentiments are your own and as such entirely valid; I just don’t agree with all of them, or some of the conclusions you’ve drawn.

I just think for the most part we should stick to what was, and still is, illegal and punishable.

Dominic – Caning is one thing but it can be argued that some teachers took even that way too far (mostly Brother’s and nuns in my experience). I have to ask is it acceptable for a PE teacher to choke a student by placing his forearm across the students throat and pushing him up against the wall so he can’t breath. Or a female member of staff publicaly ridiculing a primary age student who has both a pronounced stutter and a lisp and making him feel so bad he never again speaks in class or goes to the tuckshop until leaving yr 12? Or a teacher grabbing a boy by the neck and forcing him to the ground just for refusing to pick up a piece of paper put there by the teacher in the first place?

I witnessed these events but even in the context of being a kid in the the 70’s and 80’s I knew it wasn’t right. Give me a caning any day. If Clueless wants to apologies for not helping those he now feels he should have, so what? Personally, I say good on him.

Dominic – what years were you at Marist?

You’re living up to your name, Clueless, by completely missing the point. 90% (probably more) of people DO think that physical abuse of young people is unnacceptable. But they didn’t in the 1980’s, which is my point. Corporal punishment was an everyday occurrence, not only at school, but in many homes as as well.

You write of “brutal violence”, and “knocking a boy’s lights out”. Presumably you mean beating a kid into unconsciousness? Did you really see that happen? How many times?

Of course there were some mad bastards at Marist. ‘Mad’ Mal Dixon and ‘Mad Dog’ Br. Patrick come to mind immediately. Mal Dixon was sacked. Br. Pat didn’t last either, at least not at Marist Pearce.
I repeat, there is a big difference between a losing your temper and belting a kid, and calculatedly, methodically and cynically sexually abusing a kid. If you maintain that they are the same, and so presumably warranting the same punishment, I will stand by my question – What planet are you living on?

I completely dispute that there was a culture of violence at Marist. Yes, there were violent incidents. But a ‘culture’ implies some pre-planning and organisation – I never saw it, and I was there 13 years, getting caned with the best of them. What went on was no different than at any other school.

“the melodramatic focus on sexual abuse” YOUR WORDS. I don’t think it’s melodramatic at all. The sexual abuse is and should be the proper focus of all the attention. I repeat – what you’re apologising for is trivial (or melodramatic, if you like). You didn’t even do it, you just saw it! In your apology, which is what I’m criticizing, you cite a big three instances of ‘brutal violence’ in eight years at the school. Oh, I forgot – you also succumbed to peer group pressure and teased someone – you really are a horrible person aren’t you. Get over it.

You write that you “witnessed the pleasure” of Marist Brothers inflicting corporal punishment (you’re calling it “correction”). I’ll agree that if they did feel pleasure, that was a very wrong feeling. But again, in the context of the times, it was not illegal or unusual to inflict corporal punishment. Therefore, whilst admittedly strange to enjoy inflicting the punishment, the enjoyment is not illegal – or punishable – either. Your assertion that they enjoyed it is also entirely subjective.
On the other hand, sexual abuse is, and has always been, illegal and punishable.

“extremely violent fight between a senior student and a younger student” – What is your definition of ‘extremely violent’? Was there a knife or other weapon used? Was one of the combatants seriously injured? And if so, did the perpetrator really go unpunished? Perhaps we should be chasing the parents of seriously injured boys as well, for obviously neglecting the welfare of their children.

Speaking of which, seeing as there were some parents who knew that sexual abuse was occurring (from the complaints of their own children), why hasn’t someone come up with the bright idea of suing them too? Surely, if we follow some of the reasoning I’ve read, they are just as culpable as any teacher for not making sure the behaviour was stopped.

Are you starting to see where some of your (and other) arguments and suggestions lead?

I’ll stick by my opinion that you’re trivialising the REAL abuse – that is, the calculated sexual abuse of students by staff – by introducing lame crap and laughable twaddle.

Of course the above is only my opinion, and I stand ready to be corrected by any reasonable argument or example.

Dominic, thank you for your opinion.

Your statements are a good example of the attitudes I criticise. If 90% of the population were to recognise physical abuse of young people as socially unacceptable, then I would have no reason to complain in the first place, or to apologise to anyone.

You must be naive indeed, or perhaps blind and deaf, to believe that teachers at the time I attended school did not hit students for their gratification. I witnessed the pleasure with which this form of correction was carried out by more than one Marist brother numerous times. I have posted about such incidents already on this site.

Your suggestion that I ‘trivialise abuse’ is doubly outrageous given your inability to recognise what abuse actually is.

Clueless70, the only thing I can say is I’m surprised they used your quote at all, and the fact they did shows how desperate they must be for stuff to use.
Are you seriously apologising, or taking the piss? So you saw some kids get belted, witnessed a couple of schoolyard fights, and you teased someone. Mate, what planet are you living on? You’ve got to put those things into the context of the times. What you’ve described sounds like an ordinary, everyday late 20th century school life to me. But since someone did tease me one day, and you didn’t stop him, I’ll accept your apology.
Can anyone name a single school where in the 1980’s or earlier the cane wasn’t used, teachers never slapped kids or pulled their ears (shock!), and students never fought or teased each other?

“knocking a boy’s lights out is as horrific and lastingly traumatic as fiddling with his penis without consent” What a load of crap! Sorry, but someone has to say it! Just to put it one way, you’re seriously insulting a lot of people who might have hit someone once, to put them in the same class as a peodophile!

There’s a BIG difference between a teacher/brother belting a kid for doing something wrong, or sexually abusing them for no reason other than their own gratification.

You’re trivialising the real abuse that went on when you introduce stuff that 90% of the population are going to recognise as everyday, socially acceptable happenings for the time.

clueless70 said :

I was not impressed to find in the Stateline story a quotation of mine published out of its context and in a misleading way.

Clueless70 – I have to admit when I watched the Stateline episode I was surprised the ABC didn’t pick up on the specific issues you raised in your post on Facebook (i.e. Physical as opposed to sexual abuse). I agree wyou were taken out of context. I read you post on Facebook a while ago and felt it a very noble and even courageous thing to say. I am sorry though that you obviously felt so bad after all these years you needed to say something – that alone speaks volumes of the schools culture. I actually chased down a guy a few yaer younger then me a few year ago. I’ve never forgotten going to Bro Terence (Heindrich) to complain about this kid (about 2-3 years younger than me) being a pain on the bus after school. I told Heindrich this kid made me feel like I wanted to smack him in the head and I was told “it’s probably what he needs”. I was left in no doubt I could do what I liked to this kid and wouldn’t get in any trouble. That afternoon I did hit him once (in the head) and regretted it ever since.

I have no doubt the specter of the physical abuse that formed part of the culture at Marist will come up as a major point in the current case.

I was not impressed to find in the Stateline story a quotation of mine published out of its context and in a misleading way.

The words that appeared on the Marist Facebook site were as follows:

‘On the school’s 40th anniversary I would like to apologise to a number of students, who cannot be named for legal reasons, for my failure to act, as a fellow-student, when they were abused. I did not complain to staff or make any attempt to stop the abuse despite knowing it was wrong. These incidents took place in the period 1981-1988. In one incident, a fellow student was thrown to the ground by a Marist brother. In another incident, a student was beaten, hauled by the ear and thrown into furniture by a Marist brother. In a further incident, a group of students forced another to be violently pushed and shoved within a circle formed by the group. In numerous incidents, I ridiculed a fellow student whom I hardly knew in order to seek approval from a number of my friends. In a further incident, I did not intervene in an extremely violent fight between a senior student and a younger student. I deeply regret the pain and harm that my inaction caused to these and other fellow students.’

This was reduced to the following on the Stateline story:

‘On the school’s 40th anniversary I would like to apologise to a number of students… for my failure to act, as a fellow-student, when they were abused. I did not complain to staff or make any attempt to stop the abuse despite knowing it was wrong.’

I understand the reluctance of a current affairs program even to reproduce statements that might have legal implications. However I resent the co-opting of my comments for a sexual abuse hysteria agenda. The clear meaning of my original comment is that I am sorry for failing to intervene in, or complain about, or avoid taking part in, violent behaviour between students, and brutal violence inflicted by Marist brothers against students. I maintain my view, on the basis of common sense, that knocking a boy’s lights out is as horrific and lastingly traumatic as fiddling with his penis without consent.

Because both this forum and Facebook provide for some anonymity, there seems little point in complaining to Stateline. However, that the central meanings of my original statement were completely elided in the Stateline story, and then distorted to fit the melodramatic focus on sexual abuse in the story, does illustrate the point I made in my longer post of some months ago: the media is obsessed with sexual misbehaviour and, like the rest of Australian society, is unable to see violence against children and young people as abnormal, much less legally actionable.

Mick1965… Josef Fritzl. Sorry, but there are dangerously twisted people everywhere.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/josef_fritzl/2280980/Josef-Fritzl-going-stir-crazy-in-cell.html

Many similar, and worse crimes against children have occurred, and continue to occur, elsewhere. Why the focus on events which happened at Marist years ago?

Because:

(1) I went to Marist;

(2) I was abused.

At Eddie’s, when the notorious Bob became Principal, he gathered the teachers and essentially said to the “screw the reputation of the school – if you have sexual relations with the kids here you will very lose your job and the police and the newspapers will be told by me how to spell your surname”. Apparently that year, and the following year, a few teachers left St Eddie’s (guess where they went?).

That’s why the other schools are not highlighted – because these sick bastards were NOT offered a safe haven in which to choose their 10-17 year old homosexual flesh-covered toys. WAKE UP!

This is the actual problem – not that these guys existed, but that they were SAFE FOR 10-20 YEARS!!!!!

Look all over the world and come back with ANYTHING that compares to Kostka’s abuse!

The school needs to grow a moral backbone, and do what is right, not what the Catholic Church and the Catholic Insurance Office wants them to do…..because of financial risk.

What is more important, money (for the Catholic Church), or the mental stability of the victims, their original families, their new families and the community that surrounds them.

The school is chosing to side with what is convenient for them, not what is right for the victims they created.

The perpetrators of these crimes have paid the penalty. Now the hunt is on for someone else to blame: for former staff who ‘must have known’, or current management who have failed to fall on their swords and admit that they are all part of some evil cover-up.

The perpetuators HAVE paid the penalty? REALLY? I don’t think so. A lot of them are still free and you don’t think Kostka and Lyons could have been stopped earlier? Not through any wild magic – but simply through other teachers DOING THE RIGHT THING!

It’s not a hunt – it’s a call for the admission of a FACT. It happened.

Another fact is that all the records were destroyed under suspicious circumstances.

Nobody is gathering for a witch hunt here – it’s the pursuit of TRUTH.

What is the current staff at Marist expected to do? Stand out the front writing cheques for everyone who turns up with a story? Would that be ‘justice’?

I think what they are actually expected to do is choose what’s right, and not what is “best for the reputation of the school”.

There is still undoubtedly a tendency for the staff at Marist to opt for a COVER UP.

One way or another they need to see this is just going to turn out very badly for them in the long run. Sorry, if seeing the building slide down the hill and into the bowels of hell will assure they never turn their heads while kids are abused, physically, mentaly and spiritually, then so be it.

Yes, that’s extreme but if you had to put up with what I did from year 4 – year 8 and live with the consequences every day, you would understand.

Another forum mentioned a guy named Robert Speare who, it seems, went on to become a Marist Brother. Bob Speare watched me being brutally bashed in Year 8. When it was over I asked him why he just stood and watched and he said “You had it coming”. This is indicative of their attitude and I’m sure it’s what they were thinking while I spent hours on end in Kostka’s office. And it’s WRONG. I didn’t have it coming and nobody deserves that. I was 13 years old FFS.

BerraBoy68, there are other people besides the Marist Brothers that need to be open and honest. There must be more than a few lay teachers involved as well and some of them may not even be Catholic. So even if Marist as an organisation are true to their standards there are still going to be gaps. I really hope that they will be true, but I won’t be holding my breath.

I think the current administration at the school are probably doing the best they can, but unfortunately for them they are in the position of having to clean up someone else’s mess.

Fully agree with your BTW.

Dominic said :

Berraboy68, I disagree with your last sentence in comment #40, only because it is a practical impossibility. We will never get complete openness and honesty from all those involved.

Dominic, sadly you may well be right – but seeing as it is a Catholic Order that we are asking to be open and honest don’t you find that a bit odd? If you are right, the Catholic Church may as well shut up shop now as what they are preaching would be against their own actions, pretty much a ‘do as I say, not as I do’ attitude. However there is no harm in trying to get them to meet their own standards. This is also the case at the School. Marist’s own Website states they foster an educational environment where they teach students to be honest, open and fair. I fully support this as an educational goal and again, no harm in trying to hold those at the Marist order to this.

BTW: I understand the current Headmaster at Marist is very good person and he must be under a hell of a lot of pressure. He certainly has my respect.

Guys,

I’m not against a lobby/support group per se, or further investigations. Part of what I’m saying though is to wait for the outcome of the current court cases and then go from there. I think a lot of questions will by then already have been answered.

Berraboy68, I disagree with your last sentence in comment #40, only because it is a practical impossibility. We will never get complete openness and honesty from all those involved. At some stage, to get closure, people have to let go, even if there are still unanswered questions or ‘what-if’s’. Still, closure in this case is very subjective and I acknowledge that everyone has to find it in their own way.

I have a close relative who was sexually abused as a teenager. The perpetrator eventually faced charges, was convicted and did time in jail. Did it provide closure or satisfaction to the victim? No – he is still affected and his life is a mess. The only way he’ll get closure is if he forgives and lets go. Again, everyone has to find closure in their own way but to think that a court case will do it is not right.

Interesting comments #40 captainwhorebags, and #42 imhotep. In recent discussion with another old boy who is closer to some of the victims than I am, I commented that Kostka used to give me a hug now and again. His joking response was that I should jazz my story up a bit, get on the bandwagon and make a complaint, as Kostka had abused so many kids that he doesn’t remember them all. Any sort of accusation of ‘innappropriate touching’ was a damn good chance of a compo payout!
This is NOT to suggest that there have been any illegitimate claims or accusations made, but an illustration that an open chequebook compensation policy is open to abuse and could even bankrupt the school.

Crazyfish, #39 is fair comment and I take it on board. I’m a little confused though as to your embarrassment comment – surely the easiest way to avoid embarrassment would be to make under the table payments rather than face public accusations in a court.

I’m curious to see what the outcome of the suits against individuals brothers will be. These guys are supposed to have taken a vow of poverty, so it’ll be interesting to see if they have amassed any assets that could be claimed as a result of a civil matter.

Mind you, some saw fit to ignore a vow of chastity so perhaps the poverty bit is out the window, too.

Jason Parkinson on Lateline last night.

Link to the transcript below.
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2298206.htm

What is the current staff at Marist expected to do? Stand out the front writing cheques for everyone who turns up with a story? Would that be ‘justice’?

The perpetrators of these crimes have paid the penalty. Now the hunt is on for someone else to blame: for former staff who ‘must have known’, or current management who have failed to fall on their swords and admit that they are all part of some evil cover-up.

Many similar, and worse crimes against children have occurred, and continue to occur, elsewhere. Why the focus on events which happened at Marist years ago?

Is it because Marist is a big catholic school, seen by some as part of a fabulously wealthy but corrupt system? Is it because this case is a lightning rod for all those who hate private schools, clergy, catholics or organized religion in general?

Is it ‘justice’ you seek? Or is it vengeance.

Dominic

I think its fair to say we all want the victims to be able to move on. Unfortunately counseling in some cases isn’t enough. Many of these guys have had their lives ruined through no fault of their own. If it takes legal action for them to be able to live comfortable life (some of them can’t work, hold a relationship etc.) then yes it has to go through the courts. The group that has been created is for those involved, their families, friends etc.. to come together in a single forum to discuss issues. As your new to RA you’d have to troll through several Threads to get the full picture of issues being discussed. Teachers names are being bandied about, incidents are being discussed, calls have been made for the schools closure, etc.. Several of us thought it best to get all this on a single issue specific forum than discuss these issues on-line in a range of forums, sites, whatever…. so we formed a group. We’ve already had people come forward not seeking money etc.. but who are intimately involved who just want answers or someone to talk to.

In relation to Lyons leaving Marist it’s fair to say there are people in Dara who want to know why he left.

Keeping an open mind is what it’s all about. I’d be surprised however if anybody involved didn’t want to know the truth of what happened. After all, people putting their heads in the sand didn’t work out too well in the past. You’d also be surprised to hear that many in the group want the school to regain its good name and move forward proudly knowing all this has been cleared up to everybody’s satisfaction. After all, the majority of students that have gone through the school have done very well. That shouldn’t mean we just leave those that were abused behind. If anything I think we have a duty to help those who are suffering – another lesson we were taught at the school! We are not there to run the school down or get involved in the legal action. We just want honesty in the process and those responsible to stand up. Isn’t that the christian way?

As for being a proud ‘Old Boy’, I was and to some extent still am. In fact you’d be surprised how proud I once was of the school and the hours I spent for years working for them in my spare time. W’d all like that pride to return and the only way that can happen is if honesty and openness prevails – wherever it leads is OK.

Unfortunately those involved won’t be able to get any closure unless everybody involved in this case is open and honest about what they knew/know.

crazyfish, when you say “pay the bill” do you have a dollar figure in mind? Is there something specific that’s required for victims and sympathisers to consider the matter sorted in a fair manner?

“I would think that there would be dozens of ex-staff not mentioned” – you would think that, but lets check it.

“some of your other points certainly seem reasonable questions and as such I would think they are already subject to judicial investigation” – many of them aren’t unfortunately and due to the way our legal system works some won’t get explored. That’s neither a good or bad thing, just the way things are, still, someone needs to raise the questions I think.

More happened that needs to come out, a full accounting is required and I see a lobby group of some kind as the best way to do this. Why isn’t an apology from the Marist brothers and the principal enough? Because neither represents any kind of accounting and until the totality of this wound is laid bare it will never be healed, it will continue to be healed. They only apologise for what has been proven in court and they fight tooth and nail against that (as is their right). You talk about forgivness Dominic? In the context of the totality that is in the public record think about what we were taught about forgivness and the lack of courage, honesty and understanding evident in the behaviour of the school and the Marist order. Why do they fight the civil claims on technicalities having virtually admitted in the court submitted statement of facts in the criminal case that they knew what was happening? Surely, if the order or the school was really sorry they would simply admit responsibility and pay the bill, wouldn’t they? Unfortunately the ideals of the church aren’t as strong as the power of the dollar or the perceived threat of embarrassment. If Christian ideals were paramount here the Marist order would open itself completely and publicly to a full accounting of everything it knows and has done relating to cases of sexual abuse and empower itself through asking for forgiveness. Instead it fights every disclosure, every case and hides behind the legal system as best it can.
Dominic, please let me know when you identify the experts who can make this happen. I’d sorely like to meet them.

Why do I get the feeling that there is a certain amount of voyeurism (for want of a better word) in this? People who were abused – certainly a support group for and including them would be great; the point of it should be to help them get over the hurt and move on. People who were on the periphery (like myself) getting together to share ooh-aah stories and discuss conspiracy theories will only muddy the waters. I have to ask what are you hoping to achieve? Destroying Marist as it stands now is not going to help anybody from the past. As interested parties, not victims, the best you could hope for would be a general apology from the school – one that has already been issued by the current headmaster. If you are a victim, and/or have information that has not yet come to light, by all means bring it forward – to the police. If you are an interested party with no facts but only second-hand stories, rumours or theories, they’re probably best kept to yourself.
Without wanting to offend anyone, I strongly agree with VicePope, especially his last fact.
Berraboy68, whilst I’m sure your heart is in the right place, some of your initial points/queries seem just outright speculation. And you’d have to think that they will always remain speculation. For example, how will anyone ever really know why Paul Lyons left Marist? The bloke is dead, and he’s the only one that can tell us. Another example – how do you ever expect to collate figures on suicide rates? And how would you know if the suicide had anything to do with their schooling? Again, you can’t get into the mind of a dead person. Third example – does anyone know that Ray Lyons did anything wrong? The sins of the brother should not be visited on him. Until he is accused, who gives a rat’s whether he has been omitted from the schools official history? Does someone have a history that mentions the Lyons brothers, then a later version that doesn’t? Where’s the ‘rewriting’? I would think that there would be dozens of ex-staff not mentioned in the ‘official’ history, and most of them would be horrified to think that just because they missed a mention, that might make them suspect.
Berraboy68, some of your other points certainly seem reasonable questions and as such I would think they are already subject to judicial investigation. Let’s leave it to the experts for the moment. Perhaps if the outcome of the current court cases are considered unsatisfactory in terms of answers to your questions, then that would be the time to agitate for answers. Too much speculation at this point may actually harm ongoing cases.

I appreciate that this is an emotive issue and I certainly hope I haven’t offended anyone with my current opinions. They are posted in the spirit of open and frank discussion. Yes, I am an old boy who was there at the time. No, I wasn’t abused. Yes, I have friends that were, that still struggle with it today. I’m trying to keep a balanced and open mind.

Lastly, I gather from the above contributions, and from the other activities of Old Boys, that there is still a lot of pride felt in having been a Marist boy. Presumably then, some of the Christian values we were taught remain. So let’s not forget the value of forgiveness.

The article states that “A letter from the Church’s lawyers suggested that for legal reasons the ABC should not reveal the documents.”

Good to see the church is openingly trying to coverup the truth, wouldn’t want them to be deceptive about that now would we.

It appears that Cardinal George Pell is in the news again with another Catholic Church coverup.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/08/2297082.htm?section=justin
ABC News online article “Pell letter misled sex abuse victim”

You know the thing I never understood about those who lie and decieve for a living, is that they never think that people that have been lied to don’t talk to each other.

Pell is as guilty as the rest of them……..

Skidbladnir said :

Bonus points if you can get them to air the name of the site you found out about it from…
(There is no shame in a shameless plug)

I specifically named RA when I spoke to ABC news on Friday – but they cut that bit out when it was aired. I’ll keep trying though, dagnabit….

Don;t forget all, the e-mail address for the now Marist/Daramalan ex-students and Families Lobby group is timeforhealingmc@gmail.com please be patient if it takes me some time to respond to you though. We’re getting quite a bit of interest from RA readers alone.

ABC have put the Stateline story online:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/07/07/2296250.htm

Mick1965 said :

Did anyone get that STATELINE on VHS or DVD?

Not me, but once Stateline puts up a transcript, they will always link to the video stream for the piece on the same page.

But, you did say like me – who would stand in front of a news camera…
If you tell your local ABC that you’ll do exactly that for ACT Stateline if they can provide you with a copy, you’ll probably get one…
Or try giving ACT Stateline a call on Phone: (02) 6275 4504 Fax: (02) 6275 4683.

Bonus points if you can get them to air the name of the site you found out about it from…
(There is no shame in a shameless plug)

Did anyone get that STATELINE on VHS or DVD?

BerraBoy – just emailed you….

Lobby group recognised on ABC Online.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/06/2295598.htm?section=justin

Berraboy posted the email address ” timeforhealingmc@gmail.com ” for people to contact him about the lobby group idea on another post.

Your support will be welcome, but we will also understand if individuals are not ready yet…….

Canberra Gardener said :

I will happily support anything that enables the TRUTH to come out of this mess.

Although not an ex Marist student, I would like to provide support from the Daramalan victims side. I believe we all stand together on this one.

That we do, CanberraGardner, that we do. The support/lobby group will gladly welcome Daramalan victims, students, families and supporters!

I will happily support anything that enables the TRUTH to come out of this mess.

Although not an ex Marist student, I would like to provide support from the Daramalan victims side. I believe we all stand together on this one.

Oh watch ABC news too! They tell me thay have something on that now too.

Skid – contact me pls!

I’ll be watching…
The non-action and unwillingness from Marist and its Trustees to actually follow through with their promise of an internal inquiry has been both interesting and damaging, especially to the public goodwill they were trying to muster…

Those interested in the progress of the Marist case are urged to watch Stateline tonight on the ABC at 7:30.

Stonefish – your comments are noted. However, if the group can influence victims in feeling supported and unashamed etc. than great. The school needs to understand that elements the ex-Marist community (or the Canberra Community for that matter) is very disappointed in its past and ongoing behavior. If the school or order admitted its actions then the healing can begin and it could actually move forward, but no, it continues to try and avoid responsibility.

In truth, if I was/had been a teacher at the school I’d be horrified to find out that ex-students are putting their names forward as ‘potential’ pedophiles in websites, discussions in clubs, pubs etc… If every teacher mentioned in RA alone as being ‘suspect’ by an ex-student was actually sexually abusing children we’d have had at least 15 pedophiles at the school! How is this fair to the majority of teachers who are most likely innocent? It’s as much to end all this that the school/order has to say enough is enough! Only then can the school etc. draw a line in the sand and move on with a clear conscience.

Berra – I’m glad to hear that you intend raising the matter with Mr Parkinson.

“I think a lobby group of this type would increase the pressure on the school to come clean during the civil case.” (from your initial post on this board) could be interpreted as trying to effect the way that one or more witnesses give evidence.

I’m not accusing you or anyone else of anything – it’s just that anyone found to be attempting to influence witnesses could find themselves seeing Chute again sooner than they think!

Again, I don’t condone Chute or criticise your sentiments. Just be careful!

Jason Parkinson has now been consulted on the creation of this Group as discussed in the original Thread. When I spoke to him this morning that he advised he believes this to be “an excellent idea” that he will “support 110%”. I hope that allays anybody’s concerns.

Anybody interested in coming to an initial meeting of a small group, to exchange ideas, a few of us will be at the Burns Club at 7pm Monday evening. Please let me know if you’ll be attending so I can keep an eye out for you. I’ll also have a dedicated e-mail address created by this time tomorrow so please check back on this Thread for the address.

Mick1965 – please contact me at the address to be advised tomorrow so I can give you my contact details. I said it once, I’ll say it again, no ex-students need feel ashamed or embarrassed about this. And trust me, you and all involved have more support in the community than you could possible know! Other victims and their families, as well as just concerned ex-students and their families have also been in contact and have advised their support and interest in creation of a group.
Cheers

Hi BerraBoy68,

I am also out of Canberra – I am now living in Brisbane. However, I would like to be involved and to stay in touch.

Funny how it goes….when I found out about Paul Lyons I said to my mother “I wonder when Kostka’s dealings will come out?”. At the time I was not ready to face what Kostka has done to me. After reading this forum, on Riot Act, I decided to try to face what has happened but I did not want to join in the legal action against Marist.

Having heard more from victims here, I have now added my experience to Jason’s enormous list of Marist teachers and their wrong doings.

My memory of Kostka and Paul Lyons is that Paul HATED Kostka. It’s interesting to read here that Kostka taught him, and that there are those who feel they were friends, and even could have worked in cahoots. It is this clarification, and open discussion, after all these years of bottling it up, that is so very therapeutis to me. I feel I could even sit amongst a group of victims and share “war stories”. It juse seems so important to me (after all this time trying to supress the past and even trying to wipe it out) that it IS real. For me now, it NEEDS to be real, and you know what they say about talking about things.

Anyway – I can only guess that there are others like me who need to be involved. I am also very close to taking away my anonymnity and wonder if there are a few others like me – who would stand in front of a news camera and say: “My name is xxxx and I was abused by xxxx. If you were abused you should speak up now”. I wonder how many more victims would se encouraged to step up then?

Thanks everyone for helping me get through this so far…now let’s try to do something that really makes a difference.

Mick

Stonefish – I always say, everyone is entitled to their view. All I know is that I’ve been approached by ex-students outside the RA Forum (including some of those invovled in the civil suite and their families) interested in getting together to discuss what’s happening. There is concern that the school is trying to have it both ways – look at their website. It talk about being an environment that fosters honesty, fairness, and justice and yet when it comes to it, they are acting in a manner contrary to their own stated ideals. If they want to run a business, fair enough but at least they should admit that rather than sucking in families by going on about fairness, justice, being a caring community for ex-students, etc. Take yesterday for example, the victims now have to sue individuals rather then the organsiation. Now there’s an automatic out for the order (“it wasn’t ‘Marist’ per se that was at fault just individuals”).

I will speak to Jason on this matter. I have had several conversations in the past and I trust his advice(despite his being a laywer!). Call me skeptical but I also doubt the legal system gets it right in all/many cases – whether it does in this case is yet to be seen. I’ll watch with interest what is happening but there is more to this issue than is being said or will likely come out in court.

As a mate (another old-boy) said yesterday, there is nothing wrong with those with more than just a passing interest in this case getting together to discuss what is happening, and if necessary, letting the school know they are not happy with its ongoing cover-up. I’ll continue to listen to ex-students and act accordingly.

Further, I’m not suggesting that being a lawyer is any great thing, but is anyone on this board honestly surprised that the Marists have put up arguments such as the ones described by previous posters? This class action is shaping up to be a hard fought case, and I suspect that the gloves are yet to come off. As I’ve said elsewhere, a quick settlement does not appear to be on anyone’s agenda!
It’s only the beginning ….

BerraBoy68: Re your post:
“Vicepope – while I understand what your saying, you seem to be saying that its better just to leave it alone and get on with life.”
You and I have agreed to disagree (my term!) about context previously. I read VicePope’s post to mean that those minded to act should feel safe in the knowledge that something is being done (ie: the class action), put their hostility away and look ahead. While your intentions are “spot on”, and I understand your attitude fully, I think VicePope is right.
Also, as a lawyer (I keep saying that!) I noted you said this:
“Finally, as already stated Jason Parkinson will be consulted prior to any meeting to ensure nothing is done to jeopordise the civil action”.
Please ask him first. I know what my answer would be, and I don’t know the man!

Groundhog, Crazyfish, Mick1965, and anybody else interested, I’m proposing a small get together at the Burns Club next week, at this stage say 7pm Monday to get the ball rolling. I’ve also been contacted by an-ex student interstate who is part of the civil case and also by a father of a victim, also living interstate. Both have contacted me independently and are keen to get involved in this group but can’t make it to Canberra this week. I think this is a good nucleus to see how such a group could best work before moving to advertising a broader meeting in the press. I think we’d get a lot of interest. I’ve already been contacted by one media outlet seeking to discuss this idea following my original posting of this thread on RA.

Please let me know in this forum if you can make the meeting at the proposed time and place or propose other arrangements that could suit. I intend to set up an e-mail address for the group and will advise details as soon as I can.

Cheers

VicePope – really appreciate your clear logic. And the voice of experience. I’ll likely be contemplating it for some time as a counter balance to my own reactions to this case as an ex-Marist Canberra student (“old boy” just doesn’t sound right to me!)

For now, however, I’m leaning to the healing-process interpretation that OpenYourMind2, BerraBoy68 and crazyfish have pointed to: all resting on the necessity of response in the face of the fact that Marist, through its direction of its lawyers, are trying to completely dissolve themselves of any responsibility whatsoever. In Br Alexis Turton’s press release last week the comment was something like “sorry for the embaressment to the Marist community.” What about saying sorry, and demonstrating it, to the victims of child abuse first?

That’s the part that boils my blood. I have a damn lot of dust on my school shoes at present, and I can think of a lot of satisfying ways to get the dust off that don’t involve patience. And sometimes, righteous rage is appropriate IMO.

But hopefully, I’ll also sleep on it and come to a far better plan of engagement to support the victims, their families and friends and to aid in ensuring that the Marist school culture changes irrevocably, for the better. Hence, I’m in support of BerraBoy68’s proposal.

What OpenYourMind2 said is spot on for mine.

re: Vicepope’s: “the best way of ensuring it doesn’t happen in the future”, I think that remains to be seen. I can’t help but believe there are many better efforts that could be made that aren’t being made for a large number of complex reasons. Why did it take so long for Chute to get the help he reportedly asked for over such a long period? There’s a systemic rot somewhere that still isn’t being addressed.

The argument going on at the moment at the heart of the civil cases isn’t about whether the school knew and should have done something to prevent what they knew was going on, it is over a technicality as to whether a Marist brother is a legal agent of the school or order. What a crock. While the school and the church continues to have the attitude they are displaying currently then every child who attends there is at risk. They’ve had chances to go public, arrest the damage and begin the healing but now they’re stuck aren’t they? There’s no way they can say anymore than they have with legal action pending, so instead the whole thing is going to be played out over the long term via painful language and interpretation that does nothing to expose or remedy the central themes of what has happened nor better reveal the truth.

All that said however, I believe you are correct Viceroy in what you say about those who come out of these things best. But I also believe that the attainment of the peace of which you speak is a process that can sometimes take a lot of work and that all that is happening now is a part of that process for everyone involved.

Vicepope – while I understand what your saying, you seem to be saying that its better just to leave it alone and get on with life. Personally, I want the school to come clean and going from the feedback I’ve got to date both on this forum and from other discussion with various Old Boys, so do they and their families. For me, and for many others I’ve spoken to, it’s important for the school to know that we are not happy with what’s been/is happening. Also, there is far more to this story than just Kostka and Lyons. I am informed by a very reliable source that there are more teachers to be named yet in the civil case, so there is a lot left to run in this. The Marist Order ‘appears’ to have been involved in covering up this and other abuses (sexual and physical) for years. They were allowed to to some extent because people felt it better to try and move on with their lives rather than make a fuss. This obvioulsy hasn’t worked judging by the growing level of interest in this case. Lets face it, the Order has been less than honest in its dealings with its community. It can seek to protect its money all it likes but as a product of Marist Canberra, this flies in the face of all the ‘this is all for the benefit of the boys’ claptrap they’ve been spouting to us for years. If they are seeking to protect the money at the expense of honesty and fairness to students (past and present) then the school is just a business, nothing more. What we are talking about here is a religious Order placing thousand of students at-risk by disregarding complaints by parents merely to protect the good name of their Order.

Finally, as already stated Jason Parkinson will be consulted prior to any meeting to ensure nothing is done to jeapordise the civil action.

Getting peace is the best outcome – having the school acknowledge its past failures is a step in the right direction – at present it appears to be covering itself to such an extent that knowing what failures occurred will never be possible because of the alleged dishonesty and failures of the various Headmasters – in which case the same errors can and will likely be repeated. Many Old Boys from Marist Canberra are expressing remorse and shame for not speaking up about the abuse (sexual and physical) they witnessed earlier. All ex-students need to know that the shame in this matter isn’t theirs. If a meeting helps one or two Old Boys to understand that this is the general feeling in the ex-Marist community – then all the better. Oh, and it was again mentioned to me today by an that the suicide rate at the school is apparently significantly higher than other school in the ACT – again something to be verified and discussed.

Again, this isn’t about anger. It’s about getting answers and understanding. When the school is more open and honest with its own community, I’m sure everybody will feel more at peace.

VicePope, the big difference is that Marist’s actions (or lack of) were abhorent then and they are still in damage control now. They still appear to be more interested in protecting the interests of the school than in the interests of the victims. That was the case 25years ago, 15 years ago and is still the case today.

What better example than the ludicrous claim recently by Marist’s legal representatives that the school had ‘no duty of care’ as Br Kostka wasn’t a directly employee.

Well said.

I was thinking someone has to provide a counter voice, and elected myself. To declare an interest, I’m an old boy of another Marist school (where there was at least one paedophile on staff) and have a family connection to Marist Canberra.

Facts – Marist had two teachers who can be confidently said to have been paedophiles. One is dead. The other is an old man who is in prison. He confessed and, while that (and the death of the other offender) saved the victims from the ordeal of giving evidence, it also prevented them from airing their accounts of his miserable actions.
Facts – paedophiles aren’t exactly unknown in any education system. The clever ones proably still generally pick their marks well and stay below the radar. But their chances of getting into schools and staying there are probably getting thinner.
Facts – after a number of allegations and cases, the Catholic Church inquired and changed a number of processes. (See Bishop Robinson’s book). Antiquated and naive ideas that confused religious confession and forgiveness with a resolution of criminal culpability, civil responsibility and the persistent underlying inclination to paedophilia are now recognised as badly mistaken. They have been discarded in favour of a low-risk approach that encourages the criminal prosecution of offenders who victimise the vulnerable. Not much comfort to those affected in the past, but the best way of ensuring it doesn’t happen in the future.
Fact – there’s civil litigation on foot. Marist and, moreso, its insurer would be irresponsible if they surrendered to any claims as would be the inevitable result of the kind of opening up that is proposed.
Opinion – for most of my working life, I have dealt with conflicts between individuals and between individuals and institutions. Those who come out of those conflicts best are invariably those who close the door after them, or shake the dust of anger from their shoes. As with the bushfire victims still seeking more inquiries and more answers to events so long ago, the ultimate answer is not consequences for the perpetrators or compensation for the victims, but to find some kind of peace. I hope the victims of Chute and Lyons will someday be able to put the hostility away, recognising that the events have caused damage but looking ahead to the rest of their lives.

Groundhog agreed, although I think interest in such a group is substantial, perhaps a small planning meeting is in order first.

I’m suggesting a few of us meet early next week at a venue to be arranged. I’ll contact those who have responded so far but more interest from the ex-marist or even Dara RA community and their families and friends is most welcome.

You might only need a small group of active people to make it work. From there, others can lend their support via online, petitions, donations etc….

I’ll support 100% – just let me know how this progresses.

Berra,
I’d be more than happy to share my experience (in trying to hold an order accountable) with you even address your group if you like.

The order that ran amok when I was at school was totally disbanded and had all of its assets stripped and liquidated by the Bishop. The school name was changed and history rewritten in a manner that would have made Pol Pot blush.

This is why I wished you luck. You are up against some bloody intransigent forces.

O, and get in touch with ‘Broken Rites’ They are based in Melbourne.

I agree with all teh above but I suppose, we need a first meeting of interested parties to see if:
A) there is enough support for this cause within the ex-marist community (I think there is);
B) what can we do without hurting the civil case (Inviting Jason Parkinson to a first meeting would be good);
C) What can we do to increase pressure on Marist within the bounds of our abilites under(B); and
D) Scope the structure and Terms of Reference for the group.

All for not putting the cart before the horse, but I’m just keen to get a first meeting up and running where we can get the above issues sorted out so we can move ahead fruitfully.

That said, I’d be looking to run the first meeting to discuss the above in the next two weeks with an advert in the paper soon. I just need to organise a venue first, etc..

Crazyfish – Many Thanks. I also thought about the impact on the current civil case but I think at the very least the creation of a group would send a signal to the school, and the Marist order that “THE MARIST COMMUNITY IS WATCHING – WE WANT THE TRUTH TO COME OUT”.

I’ll certainly let you know how things progress.

As a Marist old boy I echo crazyfish’s comments. Some robust thinking required before hanging out a shingle – the proposal needs to feasible, based on accepted practices and made attractive to the wider community of parents, friends and old boys. Perhaps we could also ask the advice of RA lawyers? anyone?

A website would be needed, a public list of real names / spokespeople, process for approving statements, likely a formal structure of association if bank account is to be set up to receive funds for any particular activities, some high profile Marist old boys perhaps as patrons (or something similar)… I could go on…

There is also a significant opportunity with the forthcoming ACT legislative election to put forward some policy/legislation recommendations that would support the civil cases/enquiry/related laws, and boot-strap the issue into the election media coverage. Adopt our policy, get endorsed etc.

Suffice to say, count me in.

As a Marist old boy and someone peripherally involved in recent goings on I think you have the basis for an excellent idea. I think that the question of pushing for an enquiry needs to be considered carefully however as I wonder what effect it would have (maybe none) on the current and forecast civil cases. Maybe they should be left to play out first? Dunno. It would be worth a call to the lawyer in question I think.
Regardless of that issue, I think some form of lobby group is an excellent idea as a way of presenting a coherent and stronger front to the school and the order generally. Count me in!

Mike, thanks for the advice and support. I don’t for one minute think Marist (as a school or the Order) will support this idea. Which in a sense is the point of the lobby group. The Order is doing their own thing regardless of the their actions being opposite to doing the right (and christian) thing.

Again, Thank for the good wishes!

I suggest you contact the Old Boys network at Parramatta (NSW). They had a Brother Lister (to name nut one) who was a multi-generational Paedophile who ran the attached St. Vincents boys home. Don’t expect any co-operation from the order on this one though, they spirited him away to the USA and had him working under an assumed name. Took the NSW Police ages to track him down and extradite him.

I wish you all the good luck in the world.