Does ANY cafe/restaurant in the ACT meet your service expectations?

Objective said :

DanRayner said :

Heya

Dan @ Bittersweet in Kingston here.

We do the first three without question, the last one you’ll have to be the judge of when/if you come in for a visit (personally, I love the coffee & food we serve – but I might be a bit biased)

Cheers!

The implication here being that your prices are higher to offset surcharges/penalty rates/etcetc. Unfortunately, that makes me less inclined to visit your establishment. Subsidizing people like the OT doesn’t sit well with me.

Hardly an objective comment as well as being erroneous.

I use Bitter Sweet regularly and their prices are no higher than any other cafe so perhaps dismounting off your high horse is in order?

DanRayner said :

Heya

Dan @ Bittersweet in Kingston here.

We do the first three without question, the last one you’ll have to be the judge of when/if you come in for a visit (personally, I love the coffee & food we serve – but I might be a bit biased)

Cheers!

The implication here being that your prices are higher to offset surcharges/penalty rates/etcetc. Unfortunately, that makes me less inclined to visit your establishment. Subsidizing people like the OT doesn’t sit well with me.

Most Canberra Restaurants meet my expectations – overpriced, poor service, disappointing food.
I go back to those that exceed this.

Heya

Dan @ Bittersweet in Kingston here.

We do the first three without question, the last one you’ll have to be the judge of when/if you come in for a visit (personally, I love the coffee & food we serve – but I might be a bit biased)

Cheers!

breda said :

The anti-business crowd here just can’t make up their minds.

I don’t think you’ve been reading the comments properly. It’s not anti-business sentiment, it’s customers getting sick of businesses being anti-customer service while asking for ever-increasing amounts of our hard earned money. The Australian retail sector is in the midst of learning this lesson the hard way. It’s not a surprise then that customers are also turning their attention to restaurants, cafes, etc.

The anti-business crowd here just can’t make up their minds.

On one hand, they say that the only “fair” way of doing business is to charge people for what things actually cost.

On the other, they want the costs averaged out over all customers – a kind of “business socialism.”

The conflict between these two positions seems to be beyond their grasp.

Here’s the thing. So far, it’s a free country as to where you eat/drink and what you buy. Just as with things you don’t like on TV, you have the option to choose. Either put up your own money and provide an alternative, or be consigned to the gutless whiners category.

I used to love Chequers… Was very pleased there.

Objective said :

This thread reeks of ignorance and self entitled people whinging about their oh so hard first world problems. If you can’t understand why restaurants take these steps then you really need to take a step back educate yourself.

I had a great laugh when the OP claimed an ‘astute businessman’ would never take such measures….when the reality is the exact opposite. Some people.

+1 what a joke. How entitled can some people be. “how dare they expect me to pay the true cost of a service, everyone else should subsidise me”

This thread reeks of ignorance and self entitled people whinging about their oh so hard first world problems. If you can’t understand why restaurants take these steps then you really need to take a step back educate yourself.

I had a great laugh when the OP claimed an ‘astute businessman’ would never take such measures….when the reality is the exact opposite. Some people.

Who charges weekend surcharges? I know most will charge 10% on a public holiday. Whoop de do. An extra $3 for the convenience of having somewhere willing to open on a public holiday is worth it.

I’m ok with what they do. If I go out with friends and there’s a single bill then we either all chuck in an approximate of our meal and make sure the total is enough. Or I’ll pay one time, they pay the next. If you feel the need to calculate down to the nearest cent then you probably shouldn’t be at a cafe anyway.

Brumbie_Jill said :

Re: the weekend penalty rates – how come all the shops don’t increase the price of what they sell on weekends? There isn’t a weekend or public holiday surcharge at the newsagents or the clothes shop etc etc! They factor in the increased cost at weekends or public holidays and spread the costs across the year. Really bugs me that I have to pay more to eat on a weekend than a weekday when no other business does this nonsense.
As for EFTPOS costs, again most businesses factor that into the standard prices for all rather than having to enter different prices based on different payment methods…

This!

You don’t pay extra for your groceries on weekends or after 5pm, so why at a cafe or restaurant?

Maccas/HJ/local takeaway don’t charge extra on weekends or after 5pm.

You don’t pay extra for a new appliance/computer/furniture/every other product that Harvey/Myer/Domayne/Good Guys/Bunnings etc sell on weekends or after 5pm, so why at a cafe or restaurant?

You don’t pay more for your petrol on the weekend or after 5pm, so why pay more for a coffee or a meal at a cafe or restaurant?

There is no minimum spend or CC fee at the supermarket, so why at a cafe or restaurant?

These places all need to pay their staff penalty rates too. They get charged the same bank/CC fees as cafes and restaurants do.

It’s just blatant profiteering by the cafe and restaurants.

devils_advocate said :

Brumbie_Jill said :

Re: the weekend penalty rates – how come all the shops don’t increase the price of what they sell on weekends? There isn’t a weekend or public holiday surcharge at the newsagents or the clothes shop etc etc! They factor in the increased cost at weekends or public holidays and spread the costs across the year. Really bugs me that I have to pay more to eat on a weekend than a weekday when no other business does this nonsense.
As for EFTPOS costs, again most businesses factor that into the standard prices for all rather than having to enter different prices based on different payment methods…

*sigh*

One reason is that food you buy at a cafe has a significantly greater labour component than food you buy at a grocery store or other retail outlet.

Also, it is far easier to change a menu price in a cafe* than to re-ticket an entire grocery store worth of merchandise. Therefore it is feasible to price-discriminate in a cafe to ensure the people using the higher-value inputs pay more, whereas in a grocery store they have to average out across the week.

*recent regulatory changes have been introduced to limit the compliance costs associated with changing menus for weekends – it’s now ok again to impose surcharges. It’s essentially an exemption from the ACL prohibition on component pricing ; Competition and Consumer Amendment Regulation 2013 (No. 3)

Well, it loses them business. I won’t eat out on public holidays, and often avoid weekends because of this price variation. I’d eat out more if they spread their costs over the year.

What hasn’t been mentioned in the discussion is that there are unique costs incurred by the business owner for the handling and banking of cash, yet you never see a cash surcharge in the same manner as a credit card surcharge. All those costs are already factored into the price of the good/service. So I question why the business owner feels its appropriate to double-dip when they charge a customer a surcharge for paying by card? We’re already paying for the cost of handling cash even though its not a cash transaction.

Most seem to have honed in on the electronic payment issue. My only comment on that is, why would a merchant have both a minimum limit AND a surcharge? If the customer is paying a CC charge, what’s the point?

Re the weekend/public holiday surcharge, it’s illegal, simple as. The venue should either compensate by charging higher prices during the week or have a weekend menu with accurate pricing.

Re service, I took the lad (4 yrs old) for a milk shake today, ordered a small one. Waitress said they only come in one size. I asked her if they did take away coffee, she said yes. I said, give it to him in a take away coffee cup. It comes in a huge take away milk shake container. Waitress says it’d be the same price no matter what the size.

At which stage during this process did I give her permission to think for herself?

Get it through your thick skull darling, I don’t give a toss about the cost. I care about my 4 yr old getting filled up with frothy milk. Just give the bloody customer what they ask for! It’s not that difficult.

As yes, that’s exactly what I told her.

BTW, at Woden, near the cinema.

This sort of thing seems to happen often. What is it about ‘service industries’ whereby they can’t think outside the square. Just give me what I ask for. I might even come back.

I’m with the catering trade on this. Their overheads are much more labour-intensive than most retail outlets and they have a constant juggling act to balance staff with patrons, especially on weekends. And, it is legal for them to charge extra on weekends, but AFAIK they need to spell out those charges clearly in advance, not put “surcharge for weekends and holidays” in 8pt type at the bottom of the menu.

As for allowing people to split bills, have to agree that waiting to pay for something while a work party of 10 people all pay separately is PITA. All the groups I eat out with work this out in advance, or at the table before paying the bill. It’s not hard. The restaurant doesn’t care if someone comes to the counter with a pile of cash and says “put the rest on this card” – what they object to is being every individual’s personal financial services provider.

If you happen to stop at Nimmitabel the bakery there now has weekend surcharges. You now have a choice though, there is a cafe directly across the road that doesnt do it & they do the biggest egg and bacon roll you have ever seen!

They dont charge extra for CC or EFt either.

& then there is the lollie shop/milk bar up the road. Quirky but worth the stop rather than bet butt raped at the bakery for second rate food.

The surcharge on public holidays is illegal. Check ACCC for details.

Brumbie_Jill said :

Re: the weekend penalty rates – how come all the shops don’t increase the price of what they sell on weekends? There isn’t a weekend or public holiday surcharge at the newsagents or the clothes shop etc etc! They factor in the increased cost at weekends or public holidays and spread the costs across the year. Really bugs me that I have to pay more to eat on a weekend than a weekday when no other business does this nonsense.
As for EFTPOS costs, again most businesses factor that into the standard prices for all rather than having to enter different prices based on different payment methods…

*sigh*

One reason is that food you buy at a cafe has a significantly greater labour component than food you buy at a grocery store or other retail outlet.

Also, it is far easier to change a menu price in a cafe* than to re-ticket an entire grocery store worth of merchandise. Therefore it is feasible to price-discriminate in a cafe to ensure the people using the higher-value inputs pay more, whereas in a grocery store they have to average out across the week.

*recent regulatory changes have been introduced to limit the compliance costs associated with changing menus for weekends – it’s now ok again to impose surcharges. It’s essentially an exemption from the ACL prohibition on component pricing ; Competition and Consumer Amendment Regulation 2013 (No. 3)

Snave81 said :

Fair enough on the splitting bill one, but if a business has higher overheads on a Sunday or public holiday, why shouldn’t they be able to charge a surcharge? Would you prefer the business to be a charity and absorb the higher costs on the day you choose to attend or increase the costs across all days of the week to cover the days with higher overheads? Similarly with credit card surcharges, should a business abosrb the costs of providing you with the convenience of paying by credit card or be able to recover costs through a reasonable surcharge.

So you go into Woolworths and Coles on a Sunday and you would be happy to pay a 15% surcharge because it costs them more to open on a Sunday? Yeah give me a break. At the end of the day you consider the cost of doing business for the whole week and set your price accordingly to cover these costs and make a profit. Sure some days will be less but others will be more. No need for weekend surcharges just because it is more expensive to operate.

Besides, and I may have my states mixed up, but I believe it is illegal to have surcharges like this anyway. What they should have is seperate menu’s with the ‘surcharge included’ price on them.

only Canberra restaurants have surcharges , I doubt it. Open up your man bag and pay cash

Re: the weekend penalty rates – how come all the shops don’t increase the price of what they sell on weekends? There isn’t a weekend or public holiday surcharge at the newsagents or the clothes shop etc etc! They factor in the increased cost at weekends or public holidays and spread the costs across the year. Really bugs me that I have to pay more to eat on a weekend than a weekday when no other business does this nonsense.
As for EFTPOS costs, again most businesses factor that into the standard prices for all rather than having to enter different prices based on different payment methods…

Mike Bessenger said :

I think you’ll find it hard in Canberra to find a cafe/restaurant to meet your desires, almost as hard as it is to find someone in Canberra that doesn’t whinge when things don’t suit them

LOL

We’ve found one that meets our expectations – MY (Vietnamese) at Cooleman Court (though they wouldn’t meet your definition, above). Sammy’s kitchen in the City is also pretty good.

We’ve generally been disappointed with restaurants in Canberra – supposedly the “Restaurant Capital” of Australia, with more restaurants per capita than anywhere else in Canberra. Pfff, emphasis on quantity of restaurants over quality of restaurants in my opinion.

Personally, no problem with restaurants not splitting bills if you’re paying by card (I don’t see why they should refuse to bill-split when everyone’s paying cash though), or even charging extra to pay by card – there are fees involved in paying by card, especially AMEX & Diners – why do you think so many places don’t accept them? If you (or even me!) are causing the restaurant (or other trader) to incur additional costs in doing business with you (eg. paying with a card that charges them fees), I don’t see why you (or I) could reasonably object to them passing on those extra costs. If they don’t do this, they will have to pass on those extra costs to every customer.

YeahBuddy said :

devils_advocate said :

I f**king HATE standing in line behind people that want to split bills or use credit cards for small transactions. They are essentially taking what is a private cost (carrying cash, obtaining cash from an ATM, dividing expenses among a group) and externalising it onto society in general (i.e. me).

You see it all the time – busy bar on a friday night, people shoulder to shoulder at the counter, trying to order a round, and some moron is buying two beers and wanting to pay for it on EFTPOS with a PIN or sign to avoid a $2.50 ATM fee. Paywave doesn’t appear to have been taken up in sufficient numbers to counter this.

Or you’re sitting in a restaurant trying to get the attention of the waitstaff and they’re at the counter processing individual transactions for people. It’s simply not straightforward to ascertain whether each person in the group has accounted in full for their purchases and that each transaction adds to the total payable.

All the points above about the additional costs to the business are mostly true, but the main point is that individual payments, especially by eftpos, inconveniences other customers. On this basis, I fully encourage cafes, bars, etc etc to impose a significant minimum purchase requirement sufficient to offset the liklihood of morons taking advantage and hold everyone else up (subject to sensible exceptions e.g. if you’re buying a round for 6 or more people at the pub, this is arguably faster than each person ordering separately in cash).

On that basis, to answer OPs question – the vast majority of cafes in ACT meet my expectations, with the caveat that minimums probably need to be set at $15 or higher in pubs.

kthnxbai.

Remember this rant next time you are at the ATM with a line of peeps behind you that YOU are holding up.

I will. And I won’t be worried about it, because the only purpose of the ATM is to provide access to cash, and they charge the market-clearing price for this. If the lines are too long or the cash machine runs out of cash, then the onus is on them to raise the transaction price until the market clears.

By contrast, it is the primary role of cafes to provide goods and services to their customers – all of their customers – and *not* to provide financial intermediation. If they choose to do this secondary function, then they should be free to apply whatever conditions they see fit, including those to ensure the convenience and satisfaction of the majority of their customers, not just those who can’t be arsed sorting out their own bill.

Cafes will and should continue to impose restrictions on alternative payment methods up to, and no further than, the point at which the aggregate inconvenience to those affected by the restrictions are outweighed by the inconvenience suffered by those waiting for the bill splitters (and any direct on-costs suffered by the business).

grump said :

oooh, Conan is a little tetchy this morning!

I thought part of the point of the merchant offering POS terminals was to increase custom and turnover and hopefully profit for their business, it’s a deduction after all – now they want it both ways.

If you charge a customer for the Credit card company;’s charge, then tell me you’re not also claiming this charge as an expense and pocketing the difference!

It would be both – the additional revenue gained through the surcharge is revenue, any costs would be deductible as a loss. In a perfectly competitive market, the consumer would only pay the after-tax cost to the business of that customer using the EFTPOS facility.

I think the problem is compounded by the fact that merchant providers generally charge a flat fee for the service, as opposed to a per-transaction charge (or it’s a flat fee plus some use fee). So as suggested above, small merchants are attempting to recoup a relatively large cost over a smaller number of consumers and a relatively unknown number of transactions. there’s also the cost of staff time for actually processing the transaction. This is consisent with the supposition behind why mcdonalds can afford to do eftpos transactions for free (high turnover/number of transactions and staff costs are truly ‘sunk’ in the sense that there is no capacity constraint/marginal cost to the additional processing time).

devils_advocate said :

I f**king HATE standing in line behind people that want to split bills or use credit cards for small transactions. They are essentially taking what is a private cost (carrying cash, obtaining cash from an ATM, dividing expenses among a group) and externalising it onto society in general (i.e. me).

You see it all the time – busy bar on a friday night, people shoulder to shoulder at the counter, trying to order a round, and some moron is buying two beers and wanting to pay for it on EFTPOS with a PIN or sign to avoid a $2.50 ATM fee. Paywave doesn’t appear to have been taken up in sufficient numbers to counter this.

Or you’re sitting in a restaurant trying to get the attention of the waitstaff and they’re at the counter processing individual transactions for people. It’s simply not straightforward to ascertain whether each person in the group has accounted in full for their purchases and that each transaction adds to the total payable.

All the points above about the additional costs to the business are mostly true, but the main point is that individual payments, especially by eftpos, inconveniences other customers. On this basis, I fully encourage cafes, bars, etc etc to impose a significant minimum purchase requirement sufficient to offset the liklihood of morons taking advantage and hold everyone else up (subject to sensible exceptions e.g. if you’re buying a round for 6 or more people at the pub, this is arguably faster than each person ordering separately in cash).

On that basis, to answer OPs question – the vast majority of cafes in ACT meet my expectations, with the caveat that minimums probably need to be set at $15 or higher in pubs.

kthnxbai.

Remember this rant next time you are at the ATM with a line of peeps behind you that YOU are holding up.

I f**king HATE standing in line behind people that want to split bills or use credit cards for small transactions. They are essentially taking what is a private cost (carrying cash, obtaining cash from an ATM, dividing expenses among a group) and externalising it onto society in general (i.e. me).

You see it all the time – busy bar on a friday night, people shoulder to shoulder at the counter, trying to order a round, and some moron is buying two beers and wanting to pay for it on EFTPOS with a PIN or sign to avoid a $2.50 ATM fee. Paywave doesn’t appear to have been taken up in sufficient numbers to counter this.

Or you’re sitting in a restaurant trying to get the attention of the waitstaff and they’re at the counter processing individual transactions for people. It’s simply not straightforward to ascertain whether each person in the group has accounted in full for their purchases and that each transaction adds to the total payable.

All the points above about the additional costs to the business are mostly true, but the main point is that individual payments, especially by eftpos, inconveniences other customers. On this basis, I fully encourage cafes, bars, etc etc to impose a significant minimum purchase requirement sufficient to offset the liklihood of morons taking advantage and hold everyone else up (subject to sensible exceptions e.g. if you’re buying a round for 6 or more people at the pub, this is arguably faster than each person ordering separately in cash).

On that basis, to answer OPs question – the vast majority of cafes in ACT meet my expectations, with the caveat that minimums probably need to be set at $15 or higher in pubs.

kthnxbai.

aussieboy said :

Conan of Cooma said :

You don’t seem to UNDERSTAND the point.

Electricity doesn’t cost more on the weekends, but people do. Hence the extra.

Cash doesn’t require a telephone line, terminal device, EFTPOS banking account or extra time to process, but cards do. Hence the extra.

If you want something for free you had better start stealing, or in future, inherit more coal.

1. People might cost more, but there are also lots more customers on the weekend to compensate. Any astute businessperson thinks in terms of profit margins, not absolute costs.

2. I don’t want anything to free. I want all costs to be included in the menu price, as is the law in every other industry (ever heard of component pricing legislation?). If this means that menu prices have to rise, so be it.

3. Your attitude is appalling. Businesses need customers, not vice versa. You’re right, customers aren’t “entitled” to anything per se. In a competitive market, however, businesses should be doing their hardest to accommodate their customers’ needs.

Also, the USA thing is a myth. Minimum wage in California is around $9/hr, which is around ~$12.50 after PPP adjustment – not too far from ours, and quite a bit more after tips are taken into account.

The business/customer relationship should be a symbiotic one, there is no market for a product or service without the needs of a customer..

aussieboy said :

1. People might cost more, but there are also lots more customers on the weekend to compensate. Any astute businessperson thinks in terms of profit margins, not absolute costs.

2. I don’t want anything to free. I want all costs to be included in the menu price, as is the law in every other industry (ever heard of component pricing legislation?). If this means that menu prices have to rise, so be it.

3. Your attitude is appalling. Businesses need customers, not vice versa. You’re right, customers aren’t “entitled” to anything per se. In a competitive market, however, businesses should be doing their hardest to accommodate their customers’ needs.

Since there are more customers, you need more people. Since you’re thinking in terms of profit margins, you want extra compensation in proportion to the extra salaries you must pay because you have more staff on board in order to serve more customers. This is compounded by penalty rates for weekends and public holidays. Either have separate weekday/weekend menus, or display the weekend/holiday surcharge prominently on the menu (such as in readable-without-a-microscope print at the top of bottom of the menu).

As a non-AMEX user, I don’t think it’s fair that my cash transaction cost should be higher to subsidise the 2% merchant fees charged by AMEX over an above the fees charged by other payment processing agencies. If you want to pay using AMEX, you can pay for the privilege. American Express? I’d prefer that you left home without it. In the meantime having surcharges for certain types of payment which cost the business more is perfectly reasonable. If you disagree, perhaps you should investigate how much each transaction actually costs a small merchant (take into account the cost of hiring the POS equipment, the telephone line required for that equipment since most POS systems don’t use the Internet yet, and the cost of simply having an account with the payment processor).

Splitting bills at the counter and paying separately by credit or EFTPOS is a pain in the arse; not just for the person taking your payment, but for all the people you’re dining with, and for those waiting behind your group for you to finish your federal court case to decide who is paying what. It’s probably your favourite way to pay when you’re out to lunch with me because I keep soaking up the expenses that you claim you didn’t incur.

If you’re going to lunch with a group and intend to pay separately, sort out who owes what before you head over to the teller. I have been in the ridiculous situation numerous times of someone having a more expensive meal with expensive drinks and dessert, who then claims (in front of everyone else at the table who saw them actually eat that dessert and drink that boutique beer) that this drink wasn’t theirs, or that their dessert didn’t actually cost that much. And please don’t complain about the minimum $10 on EFTPOS or $20 on credit per transaction: this reflects the cost of handling transactions using those payment processors. If your share of the meal was $15, don’t try paying by credit card when the minimum spend is $20. You are making my meal more expensive, and you could have avoided the situation by carrying a small amount of cash.

If you can split the bill at the table, then take a bunch of cards to the teller to then pay individual amounts from each card which all add up to the total of the bill while still being over the minimum transaction for each card, great. Just don’t go up as a group to debate who needs to pay what at the teller while other people are waiting to pay: that is rude and inconsiderate.

Ideally, carry a small amount of cash ($50 made up of a $20, 2 x $10 and 2 x $5 is great, ideally you’d split that last $5 in to 2 x $2 + 1 x $1, but some folks just don’t like carrying coins). Or whip out your smartphone and transfer the exact amount (including your share of the payment processing fee) from your bank account to your friend’s account, and have one person pay by EFTPOS or credit. Paying cash to the “table payer” is great because that helps reduce that person’s number of visits to the ATM (some institutions charge per ATM transaction, or for every transaction over the number of free transactions a month). Of course you will carry more cash than $50 if you are dining at a restaurant where the per-head expense is likely to be over $50. Don’t be a dunderhead.

Hopefully we can see the end of argumentative bill splitters taking fifteen minutes to sort out a $100 lunch bill.

Pay as you order are good. If you know you are going out to dinner just take approximate cash.

Places we go which are pay at the counter, split bills or my friends are smart enough to take cash for one bill and Hanle groups of 10 + easily

London Beer and Burger,
Hellenic club civic,
Asian noodle house, (I’m not sure if it’s because we go ther often enough though)
Dickson Tradies
Grill’d
Lemon Grass Thai
Labor Club

I think you’ll find it hard in Canberra to find a cafe/restaurant to meet your desires, almost as hard as it is to find someone in Canberra that doesn’t whinge when things don’t suit them

oooh, Conan is a little tetchy this morning!

I thought part of the point of the merchant offering POS terminals was to increase custom and turnover and hopefully profit for their business, it’s a deduction after all – now they want it both ways.

If you charge a customer for the Credit card company;’s charge, then tell me you’re not also claiming this charge as an expense and pocketing the difference!

Aside from all the valid reasons already provided, a minimum charge for cards also says “we don’t want our cafe filled with kids asking for tap water”, which I’d do too if I owned a cafe!

You sound like the biggest whinging jerk ever.

If having EFTPOS was profitable, they’d have EFTPOS.

Simple.

Yes you can get all this but obviously not in your price range. And your cheaper restaurants aren’t interested in paying for your credit card points or spending all day standing around while your party pays for one coffee each.

Conan of Cooma said :

You don’t seem to UNDERSTAND the point.

Electricity doesn’t cost more on the weekends, but people do. Hence the extra.

Cash doesn’t require a telephone line, terminal device, EFTPOS banking account or extra time to process, but cards do. Hence the extra.

If you want something for free you had better start stealing, or in future, inherit more coal.

1. People might cost more, but there are also lots more customers on the weekend to compensate. Any astute businessperson thinks in terms of profit margins, not absolute costs.

2. I don’t want anything to free. I want all costs to be included in the menu price, as is the law in every other industry (ever heard of component pricing legislation?). If this means that menu prices have to rise, so be it.

3. Your attitude is appalling. Businesses need customers, not vice versa. You’re right, customers aren’t “entitled” to anything per se. In a competitive market, however, businesses should be doing their hardest to accommodate their customers’ needs.

Also, the USA thing is a myth. Minimum wage in California is around $9/hr, which is around ~$12.50 after PPP adjustment – not too far from ours, and quite a bit more after tips are taken into account.

Caphs in Manuka

aussieboy said :

You’ve missed the point. There’s no surcharge for electricity, uniforms, or eating at any other unprofitable time of the week. Why should there be a surcharge for card?

And so what if the 30c base merchant fee means my $3 coffee makes no profit (although I find this incredibly hard to believe given the actual cost of making a coffee)??? If I like the coffee, I’ll probably come back later for lunch or dinner. Are businesses really that uninterested in attracting new customers?

The widely used argument that people paying cash are subsidising people using card is also crazy – profit margins for all items in a restaurant/cafe/bar vary significantly, so diners are subsidising each other regardless.

It comes down to two things – stinginess and laziness. ALL costs should be in the menu price. I’ve worked in hospitality for a long time, and am more than happy to spend the extra 1 minute splitting a bill on the terminal if it makes a customer happy.

You don’t seem to UNDERSTAND the point.

Electricity doesn’t cost more on the weekends, but people do. Hence the extra.

Cash doesn’t require a telephone line, terminal device, EFTPOS banking account or extra time to process, but cards do. Hence the extra.

If you want something for free you had better start stealing, or in future, inherit more coal.

ONA Fyshwick

Problem solved

I take it you guys have never worked on a counter before, or perhaps have any retail knowledge?

When you give a table a bill and they split it and come up in dribs and drabs to pay is total BS. It’s even more so when there is a disagreement on who pays what – The person serving you doesn’t give a shit about who pays what, just pay the fkn bill and sort it out where you’re not blocking a service area and taking up staff time (happens this way 90% of the time).

Cards that attract surcharges natively (like AMEX) are like that because that’s how the CC company works – THEY CHARGE MORE, YOU DUMMY! You want the cafe you are visiting to pay for part of your meal? Get stuffed. You want to eat there then you can pay for the entirety of the meal. You ordered it.

It’s true that some places have surcharges on all cards, and given that they have paid, and continue to pay, for the service they provide, then what’s wrong with them wanting a little remuneration for the costs? Is this something else you want for free, as well? perhaps you don’t understand that Mickey Ds can get away without charging because they make so much money. A corner cafe doesn’t make billions, so they need to charge for it. Suck it up.

Weekend/Holiday surcharges are a result of crappy industrial laws (in relation to the hospitality industry) but surely if you worked on a weekend you would expect more money? I know us Pubes DEMAND it.

Also, in the US they get paid almost NOTHING and live off tips, so anything to make the customers happy works fine. Perhaps if you tight arses tipped then the workers wouldn’t demand extra weekend pay, and then you wouldn’t have to pay extra for your food?!?

I don’t like banks, so I don’t leave my cash there. I’m not out of touch, I just don’t trust society and corporate greed.

Perhaps your standards are too high and you just need to move to Melbourne and be pretentious with all the pretentious people. I hear Brisbane is also getting pretty pretentious now.

You’re not entitled to anything bucko, suck it up.

Some of this may change, over time, with technology making electronic payments quicker and easier, and with competitive pressures perhaps encouraging more establishments to adopt the desired payment/billing practices. As to comparisons with the US, be careful what you wish for – do we want full-blown US-style wages and working conditions here? (they are, after, all part of the system which apparently produces customer-friendly standards of service).

AndrewB said :

Um…..

i) Credit Card schemes pass interchange costs to merchants. These merchants are allowed to surcharge customers to recoup the cost of card acceptance under rules set by the Reserve Bank. AMEX and Diners are particularly expensive cards for businesses to accept. (Note that the Reserve Bank has recently issued guidance to prevent this surcharging by merchants from being at usurious levels.)

ii) Weekend / holiday surcharge – thanks to the Labor Party’s Fair Work Act, businesses have no option but to pay a whole series of penalty rates and loadings when employing staff at these times. We don’t have a 7 day a week economy anymore – years of reforms to increase labor market flexibility (carried out by Governments of both political colours) have largely been unpicked by this Government under direction from the unions. One can argue about whether this is a good thing or not, but it is undeniable that the costs to businesses opening on weekends and holidays are now higher in real $ terms.

iii) Happy to split bills – I take your point, but partly this relates to i) above – accepting multiple credit cards within one bill means paying multiple interchange fees. The technology to split bills at point-of-sale is coming though – the Commonwealth Bank for one is now rolling out apps that will sit on merchant terminals to allow people to do this at the table.

You’ve missed the point. There’s no surcharge for electricity, uniforms, or eating at any other unprofitable time of the week. Why should there be a surcharge for card?

And so what if the 30c base merchant fee means my $3 coffee makes no profit (although I find this incredibly hard to believe given the actual cost of making a coffee)??? If I like the coffee, I’ll probably come back later for lunch or dinner. Are businesses really that uninterested in attracting new customers?

The widely used argument that people paying cash are subsidising people using card is also crazy – profit margins for all items in a restaurant/cafe/bar vary significantly, so diners are subsidising each other regardless.

It comes down to two things – stinginess and laziness. ALL costs should be in the menu price. I’ve worked in hospitality for a long time, and am more than happy to spend the extra 1 minute splitting a bill on the terminal if it makes a customer happy.

To answer the original question, many such establishments meet my expectations of service. But it does seem my expectations are a little…relaxed compared to the article.

I’ve been to a few places in Canberra and Adelaide where the restaurant has not wanted to split the bill. I’ve insisted they do, and they have then split the bill.

in an increasingly electronic society, there is nothing wrong with people not carrying cash arround with them.

ATMs are unfriendly at the best of times (slow) and you have to pick the right one to avoid the stupid $2.00 charge for using some other banks’ ATM.

I thought they banned things like public holiday surcharges. Don’t they have to provide a different menu ?

Also vendors are no longer allowed to “make a profit” when you pay via credit card and they charge a fee.. Eg if the bank only charges them 0.7% that’s all they can charge. Not the 1.5%

Or have both of these rules/laws already been overturned ????

i can not believe so many people pay cash. cash is annoying – i use card for everything. the OP has a total right to complain on this

if merchants are so small they can’t afford to absorb the charge for processing card payments, then they should offer the customer the option of paying that charge themselves – the reason they dont is cos they’re probably dodging tax on small purchases

we should abolish cash altogether and have electronic systems only…problem solved. and all the cash in hand tax cheats will suddenly be screwed (plus it will save us money not having to produce money…have you ever thought about how filthy the money you use is? eww)

hmmmm

Just pay cash – I always do – it’s not hard. In fact I rarely use my card for anything.

When cafe’s are busy the prospect of bill splitting must be a nightmare from the cafe point of view. It takes so much longer then and they want their staff more productively occupied rather than wasting their time with a group of people because the group couldn’t get their act together.

+100 000 000

Inability or unwillingness to split bills is one of my pet hates – especially for things like team lunches – hence why I make a note of venues that DO split bills, and therefore earn my repeat custom:

– Asian Noodle House on Northbourne in Civic
– Ka Sushi Ramen at the E&Y building (order at counter though, so that doesn’t really count)
– Mr Shabu Shabu near UniLodge
– PJs (also order at counter, but good lunch venue nonetheless)
– Noodle Cafe in Garema Place (next to Honkys)

Though I’m yet to find a venue that meets all your criteria. That said, I’m still happy to pay with cash. Weekend/holiday surcharges are ridiculous, though. I thought they’d banned them (though maybe only over the border)?

There are a few around but you will be hard pressed in Canberra to find one that does it all….. normally we get around it by one person paying and the rest either transferring the money owed across (which at most takes a few days from some banks) or if they have cash on them to hand it to the payee.

I think it is because of the cost of having a machine is so outrageous that they only have the option to say no or they pay big $$ in fees.

Um…..

i) Credit Card schemes pass interchange costs to merchants. These merchants are allowed to surcharge customers to recoup the cost of card acceptance under rules set by the Reserve Bank. AMEX and Diners are particularly expensive cards for businesses to accept. (Note that the Reserve Bank has recently issued guidance to prevent this surcharging by merchants from being at usurious levels.)

ii) Weekend / holiday surcharge – thanks to the Labor Party’s Fair Work Act, businesses have no option but to pay a whole series of penalty rates and loadings when employing staff at these times. We don’t have a 7 day a week economy anymore – years of reforms to increase labor market flexibility (carried out by Governments of both political colours) have largely been unpicked by this Government under direction from the unions. One can argue about whether this is a good thing or not, but it is undeniable that the costs to businesses opening on weekends and holidays are now higher in real $ terms.

iii) Happy to split bills – I take your point, but partly this relates to i) above – accepting multiple credit cards within one bill means paying multiple interchange fees. The technology to split bills at point-of-sale is coming though – the Commonwealth Bank for one is now rolling out apps that will sit on merchant terminals to allow people to do this at the table.

iv) IMHO you need to look harder – there is some great coffee and quality restaurants in Canberra!

Ultimately I agree with you that these things are all part of a competitive proposition that the restaurant / cafe needs to put forward if they are to earn your business in a competitive environment. However, I don’t dismiss the costs involved – they are real. I’m glad I don’t run a small business.

Welcome to life – and this is hardly a Canberra-only problem. What kind of a stand are you taking against cash? What did cash ever do to you?

It costs small businesses to rent card facilities, and costs them every time someone pays with a card. Therefore, for small transactions like a coffee, or a newspaper, or a packet of chewing gum, it’s literally not worth selling it to you with a card. (And yes, you can make very small purchases with your card in the supermarket because they’re less concerned about the fees).

Fair enough on the splitting bill one, but if a business has higher overheads on a Sunday or public holiday, why shouldn’t they be able to charge a surcharge? Would you prefer the business to be a charity and absorb the higher costs on the day you choose to attend or increase the costs across all days of the week to cover the days with higher overheads? Similarly with credit card surcharges, should a business abosrb the costs of providing you with the convenience of paying by credit card or be able to recover costs through a reasonable surcharge.

agree 100%…the policies of most restaurants/cafes are not customer friendly and are usurious charges

in answer to the question – no 🙁

Can I get an amen brother?