28 March 2013

Fed up with emergency service vehicles behaving like morons

28 March 2013 | M

Recent travels home from work have revealed what I consider abuse of resources by emergency service vehicles.

Within the last 7 days, I have had 2 emergency vehicles – one a 4WD Police Truck, and one a Fire Truck – using their lights and sirens to clear peak hour traffic only to turn them off once past traffic and continue on as normal. The Police truck was traveling southbound on Athlon Drive last Friday, using lights and siren to clear the right hand lane (he even mounted the median strip to get through an intersection). Once he was clear of the traffic he turned off the signals and carried on his merry way at normal speed, even stopped at the next intersection. Exactly the same happened with a Fire truck on Yamba Drive tonight – using siren and lights to move heavy traffic out of the way before killing the lights and stopping at the next intersection.

This kind of behaviour is dangerous as people are actively moving out of the way of these vehicles, and could cause an accident if someone wasn’t paying enough attention. Frankly emergency services need to be patient an wait in traffic like the rest of us unless they are genuinely attending an emergency.

Has anyone else had similar experiences to this around Canberra?

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BimboGeek8:55 am 09 Apr 13

Henry82 said :

Nobody has ever done anything against company policy right?

I work in hospitality so I can safely assure you that nobody has ever done anything naughty ever.

Of course nobody ever got sacked for drinking cocktails on duty. They just put on an innocent face and claim it was training.

Henry821:05 am 09 Apr 13

BimboGeek said :

It’s been made clear that emergency services staff can be sacked on the spot for using lights and sirens without permission

…. Sticking to your guns won’t make you win the argument, it will just make you look like you can’t be educated.

Nobody has ever done anything against company policy right?

OPs idea is possible… unlikely, but possible. He should follow Johnno222’s advice, then get on with his day.

BimboGeek11:39 pm 08 Apr 13

Not everyone is an arrogant tool trying to get ahead of the traffic.

Apparently OP takes such behaviour, real or imagined, as a personal insult. I’m guessing he’s around 17 or has a very controlling mother.

It’s been made clear that emergency services staff can be sacked on the spot for using lights and sirens without permission (or in a perceived emergency where they can expect to receive permission).

If they are sitting at a set of traffic lights they have nowhere to go so it doesn’t matter how long they sit there. If they suddenly go to sirens and lights they have received a callout. If they then turn off those sirens and lights the callout has been downgraded, possibly while the person is still explaining the nature of the emergency to the 000 person.

Things happen that you don’t understand. They have been explained to you. You have two options: live and learn or look like an idiot. Sticking to your guns won’t make you win the argument, it will just make you look like you can’t be educated.

This applies more to those of you chiming in after the fact. OP seems to have got the idea and piped down.

Sandman10:42 pm 08 Apr 13

gazket said :

it’s true . I see Fire trucks using their siren to get smoko. Happens at the same time every morning around 10ish

Where there’s smoko, there’s fireo?

Johno22210:21 pm 08 Apr 13

As one of these supposed abusers of power, if we go past you with the lights and sirens on and then turn them off after getting through the lights it is because a unit has arrived on scene and we are either not required or the situation is in hand and we may still be required but not in hurry. So instead of causing problems we then proceed at road speed, following the road rules so yes stopping at the next set of lights etc. driving under lights and sirens is a heavy burden because if something goes wrong we wear the responsibility, however if you believe that the vehicle has no reason for using lights and sirens the ring the responsible agency with the details of when and where they can soon tell you if they were responding to a job or not, it’s a sackable offence to drive with lights and siren on without reason.

IrishPete8:59 pm 02 Apr 13

gazket said :

it’s true . I see Fire trucks using their siren to get smoko. Happens at the same time every morning around 10ish

Responding to a smoke sighting back at the station?

IrishPete8:57 pm 02 Apr 13

KeenGolfer said :

IrishPete said :

KeenGolfer said :

IP, the pursuit and urgent duty guidelines are freely available on the AFP website for all to read.

Thank you – I quote:
” 14 c. The performance of urgent duty driving will be notified to Police Communications (with the
exception of that associated with a routine traffic stop) at the first available opportunity.”

I rest my case.

IP

So? What you said is still wrong. They are not asking for permission to go lights/sirens, they are simply notifying communications as to what they are doing. Completely different animal.

To quote myself “and you call in and get permission for what you are already doing”. Which is in effect what the police are required to do. It’s not like they are calling in and saying “We’re in a pursuit and we’re not going to take any notice if you tell us to stop”.

zorro294:50 pm 02 Apr 13

i actually have seen this a few times and have been kind of in disbelief. there are times when people don’t respect the rules and move to the side of the road for emergency vehicles (which is obviously terrible), but when they do this, it just astounds me. it’s for emergencies and i can’t figure out why they do it.

i have seen people have to drive off the road onto footpaths and nature strips to get out of the way only to have the vehicle return to normal traffic after that.

bizarre and i think it’s a misuse of the system…big time. also makes it less likely that people will respect the rules when it’s needed (boy who cried wolf anyone??)

Bosworth4:44 pm 02 Apr 13

magiccar9 = elaborate troll?

Pork Hunt4:01 pm 02 Apr 13

gazket said :

ScienceRules said :

gazket said :

it’s true . I see Fire trucks using their siren to get smoko. Happens at the same time every morning around 10ish

Well if you did see that, you’d be able to report it and the driver (and Station Officer) in the vehicle would be disciplined under the Emergencies Act, or Road Traffic Act or even just ACTFB policy. But since you didn’t see it and you just made it up, I guess you wont.

I will take a video next time Bozo. I work on sites all around Canberra and I hear the sirens. It happens same time every day for a few days in a row, then there’s a lul then back again same time a few days later.

why would I report it ?

So this video will be of you listening to the sirens? I am quivering with anticipation…

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd11:18 pm 29 Mar 13

Ozi said :

CeeBee said :

What, you think they don’t like traffic and need to get to the shops quicker?

I suggest that you are only seeing a small part of the picture. The ‘morons’ in the fire truck would have been going to a fire call – something that they do day in and day out. Every call is different and the nature of the call dictates what resources go and from which stations. For example, a house fire may have up to five different trucks going depending on the information received (as well as ambos, AFP). These trucks generally come from multiple stations.

What you saw tonight was the second / third / fourth truck downgrading from ‘urgent duty driving’ to ‘roadspeed’ – that is, to drive at normal road conditions. This happens when the first truck arrives on site, investigates the incident, and finds that the risk at the incident is minimal. They may still require the other truck to come along (manpower, specialist equipment) but the risk is less that putting others at risk by incoming trucks driving with lights and sirens. An example of this may be a small fire in a house that has been extinguished with all occupants outside, but they still need to get rid of the smoke etc).

Being downgraded happens every day. I can’t tell you how many times this has happened whilst I have been going through an intersection, or as I have just come out of an intersection. Downgrades happen to all services.

I have been employed in emergency services for some 12 years, attending more than 500 a year. I have never been in a vehicle undertaking urgent duty driving when not going to a ‘Priority 1’ job. I have never forced myself through an intersection because I was sick and tired of the traffic and wanted to get out of there faster. Every red light or speed camera activation gets investigated too to make sure that the truck was going to a job. GPS tracking and job data allows this.

Urgent Duty Driving can be dangerous, and that is why coppers, firies and ambos do the driver training that they do.

There are still a lot of muppets on the road who drive on autopilot and can’t think or think it’s all a game – or want to believe that red and blue light Maccas and donut runs do happen…

Brava, CeeBee. As a similarly experienced emergency services worker (6 years) I can confirm that the single most dangerous task we do is not when we get to the job but the getting there.

On countless occasions we have been lights and sirens at speed to an urgent job when further information comes in, making us stop a “305 run” (rule 305 of the Australian Road Rules) and return to road speed and de-activate lights and sirens. Yes, I sometimes feel dumb when the cars we have just passed at speed pull up next to us at the next red light, but ultimately it is part of the job.

It is commendable that they are returning to road speed when it is no longer needed: both safer for them and for other drivers.

Obviously, the only time EVER you activated lights was when your take away was getting cold 😉

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd11:15 pm 29 Mar 13

DavidL said :

Interesting to see the assumptions and assertions of the various replies. Wonderful explanations (some pertinent and valid but by no means all) as to WHY this might be legitimate, followed in some cases by abuse – always a good way to avoid logical thinking. Anyone is entitled to raise the question as to whether a misuse of legal process has occurred. Many of the critical (to put it politely) replies fail to use logical processes but use assumptions instead.

We always hope that abuse of process is limited to a small number of individuals in any profession but we should not assume it doesn’t occur – whether you are in the emergency services, the police, the medical profession and real estate – examples of all of this occurring can be found in Canberra newspapers and other media for the last three professions mentioned above. Go wider on the web and you will find lots more examples.

Most cases (an assumption here) will be what CeeBee has described – due to standby situations. But CeeBee mentioned something interesting “Every red light or speed camera activation gets investigated too to make sure that the truck was going to a job. GPS tracking and job data allows this.”

So what if – no assumptions here – I wanted to get through the traffic due to impatience. If I had a brain in my head and used my emergency lights and sirens, I would stop before I reached the next intersection so I wouldn’t get caught by red light or speed camera activation. Then do it again when I next encountered a traffic block. Whilst there might be very few who do this you would never be able to claim it doesn’t happen. Makes you think (I hope) doesn’t it?

Again, tin foilers not thinking.

Why would they? Can you give me a single reason why a emergency vehicle would be out just cruising, in a rush to get somewhere that is not a job, that they need to hit sirens and lights to save 5 seconds them just pull up at the next lights?

Again, I hope you never need these so called abusers of authority…

Ozi8:53 pm 29 Mar 13

CeeBee said :

What, you think they don’t like traffic and need to get to the shops quicker?

I suggest that you are only seeing a small part of the picture. The ‘morons’ in the fire truck would have been going to a fire call – something that they do day in and day out. Every call is different and the nature of the call dictates what resources go and from which stations. For example, a house fire may have up to five different trucks going depending on the information received (as well as ambos, AFP). These trucks generally come from multiple stations.

What you saw tonight was the second / third / fourth truck downgrading from ‘urgent duty driving’ to ‘roadspeed’ – that is, to drive at normal road conditions. This happens when the first truck arrives on site, investigates the incident, and finds that the risk at the incident is minimal. They may still require the other truck to come along (manpower, specialist equipment) but the risk is less that putting others at risk by incoming trucks driving with lights and sirens. An example of this may be a small fire in a house that has been extinguished with all occupants outside, but they still need to get rid of the smoke etc).

Being downgraded happens every day. I can’t tell you how many times this has happened whilst I have been going through an intersection, or as I have just come out of an intersection. Downgrades happen to all services.

I have been employed in emergency services for some 12 years, attending more than 500 a year. I have never been in a vehicle undertaking urgent duty driving when not going to a ‘Priority 1’ job. I have never forced myself through an intersection because I was sick and tired of the traffic and wanted to get out of there faster. Every red light or speed camera activation gets investigated too to make sure that the truck was going to a job. GPS tracking and job data allows this.

Urgent Duty Driving can be dangerous, and that is why coppers, firies and ambos do the driver training that they do.

There are still a lot of muppets on the road who drive on autopilot and can’t think or think it’s all a game – or want to believe that red and blue light Maccas and donut runs do happen…

Brava, CeeBee. As a similarly experienced emergency services worker (6 years) I can confirm that the single most dangerous task we do is not when we get to the job but the getting there.

On countless occasions we have been lights and sirens at speed to an urgent job when further information comes in, making us stop a “305 run” (rule 305 of the Australian Road Rules) and return to road speed and de-activate lights and sirens. Yes, I sometimes feel dumb when the cars we have just passed at speed pull up next to us at the next red light, but ultimately it is part of the job.

It is commendable that they are returning to road speed when it is no longer needed: both safer for them and for other drivers.

ScienceRules8:24 pm 29 Mar 13

magiccar9 said :

Clearly most people have missed the point of what I was saying.
It wasn’t the fact that they turned off the siren and continued their hurry to the emergency. They turned off everything and slowed back down, stopping at the next set of lights in front of the queue.
Secondly, sure there’s the possibility they were dispatched and then cancelled – but then I ask the question, why is a dispatcher cancelling the call after 20 seconds (conveniently enough time to get through a traffic queue)? Surely they would do a little more checking before assigning a call.
To those who actually read and understood the post, thank you. Obviously other people have had similar experiences. To the rest, don’t come crying to me when someone drives into you trying to move aside for one of these vehicles on a false call.
And finally, YES I am having a whinge, which I’m entitled to if if these vehicles aren’t following the rules like the rest of us do

Maybe when you’re this far in the hole you should just stop digging.

Calls to emergency services (let’s just use the ambos for an example) are prioritised and dispatched based on the first thing the call taker hears. If someone rings up and says “mum’s having breathing difficulties”, that’s a Priority 1, lights and sirens call. As you’d expect it to be, surely. The ambulance is dispatched on the job during the first couple of sentences made by the caller.

Then as the call taker asks more questions and they find out “yeah, she’s had this chesty cough for a couple of weeks now and we reckon she should go to the doctor but we spent all our dole money on VB and Winnie Blues and need a lift to the hospital”. The job is then downgraded to a lower priority and the crew switches off the noise maker and christmas lights and drops to road speed. Why is this so difficult to understand?

When they don’t have the lights/sirens on they are subject to the same road rules as everyone else so of course they stopped at the next traffic lights. Why would you expect them to do anything different? This happens ALL THE TIME. So yes, you would have seen it over and over. It’s more frustrating for the crew than for poor little you.

Ambos, firies and coppers are paid by the hour, not by the job so it doesn’t matter one whit to them if they get to blast through the next set of lights. If they aren’t on a job they are still at work and their time is the governments anyway.

And finally, they are following the rules, you numpty. Which has been explained to you carefully and on multiple occasions.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd9:14 am 29 Mar 13

JimCharles said :

markbuzz said :

You sound like you have an issue with them turning off sirens as they head to emergencies and presume that they use the lights and sirens just to avoid the inconvenience of traffic.

The purpose of the lights and sirens is to make traffic etc aware that they are trying to get somewhere urgently, and that they will be exercising their ability to drive in a manner that might contravene standing laws and thus need the attention of drivers (I am sure there is a technical expression for this driving). They use the lights and sirens to clear an intersection or area of traffic and will turn them off when not needed, indeed it will be common to kill the sirens in urban areas or as they approach an accident scene.

With the lights and sirens off, proceeding at normal speed would be entirely appropriate and indeed expected – travelling well above the limit would call for the lights and possibly sirens.

The OP even says they stopped at the next intersection, so they obviously weren’t on a job or a rush to get anywhere, they were using the work vehicle to get out of a traffic jam because they didn’t fancy sitting in it with the rest of the proles.
I don’t know of any country (that isn’t a banana republic or Italy) where that’s morally acceptable.
Police and emergency must follow the same rules as the ones they’re appointed to manage, otherwise how do they expect to retain the authority and respect for what they do?
They work for the people and are appointed by “the people”, it’s not an authority issue at all.
Isn’t that a cornerstone of Australian philosophy…where you eliminate the bias of groups expecting special treatment for doing the same thing as everybody else?

… Yes they did not want be be stuck in traffic so they turned on their lights so they could get to the next set of lights quicker so they could(wait foooorrrrrrr iiiiiiitttttt…….) get stuck in more traffic.

Makes perfect sense, genius.

CeeBee11:36 pm 28 Mar 13

What, you think they don’t like traffic and need to get to the shops quicker?

I suggest that you are only seeing a small part of the picture. The ‘morons’ in the fire truck would have been going to a fire call – something that they do day in and day out. Every call is different and the nature of the call dictates what resources go and from which stations. For example, a house fire may have up to five different trucks going depending on the information received (as well as ambos, AFP). These trucks generally come from multiple stations.

What you saw tonight was the second / third / fourth truck downgrading from ‘urgent duty driving’ to ‘roadspeed’ – that is, to drive at normal road conditions. This happens when the first truck arrives on site, investigates the incident, and finds that the risk at the incident is minimal. They may still require the other truck to come along (manpower, specialist equipment) but the risk is less that putting others at risk by incoming trucks driving with lights and sirens. An example of this may be a small fire in a house that has been extinguished with all occupants outside, but they still need to get rid of the smoke etc).

Being downgraded happens every day. I can’t tell you how many times this has happened whilst I have been going through an intersection, or as I have just come out of an intersection. Downgrades happen to all services.

I have been employed in emergency services for some 12 years, attending more than 500 a year. I have never been in a vehicle undertaking urgent duty driving when not going to a ‘Priority 1’ job. I have never forced myself through an intersection because I was sick and tired of the traffic and wanted to get out of there faster. Every red light or speed camera activation gets investigated too to make sure that the truck was going to a job. GPS tracking and job data allows this.

Urgent Duty Driving can be dangerous, and that is why coppers, firies and ambos do the driver training that they do.

There are still a lot of muppets on the road who drive on autopilot and can’t think or think it’s all a game – or want to believe that red and blue light Maccas and donut runs do happen…

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