Huge solar farm for Bungendore

Am a huge fan of sustainable energy sources, but not of the fact that there is Natural Temperate Grassland (NTG) onsite that will be permanently damaged by the panel installations. NTG is an Endangered Ecological Community listed under the Commonwealth Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Act. Are the Feds going to say anything about its destruction?

OpenYourMind:

1. Baseload/storage:
Intermittent sources such as solar farms do require extra infrastructure and innovation to address baseload and storage requirements. Just ask California Energy Commission.
The “baseload myth” is not a myth; it is realistic consequence which is a lot more difficult to remedy PV/wind farms compared to coal/nuclear, etc. remembering we are discussing a PV farm.

2. Silicon PV:
True, the price of Si-PV has been dropping for some time as technology improves, however, PV grade silicon will run out and won’t be economical for too long. In fact, Si-PV doesn’t quite fit the ‘sustainable’ tag too well.

3. “Plastic solar cells” (OPV):
This is a nice idea, although a long way from grid useable power generation. The “7-8%” efficiency quoted in that article is of a cell smaller than your fingernail and would last no more than 10 minutes. Konarka sell throw away products.
We used to fabricate OPV cells in our lab and literally had to run the cell to the testing area before we lost any measurable power out of the device.

4. Oh those progressive Danes:
Some like to consider Denmark as a progressive country all wrapped up in renewables, etc, etc. But the truth is after the 1970’s energy crisis; they have placed energy security as paramount- which is why they import energy sourced from coal and nuclear.

I too think solar is exciting, which is why I have dedicated my research career to it. But I know that it would be silly to hedge our bets on PV (or simply ‘renewables’ for that matter) which are why I would like a mature debate on nuclear as a supplement.

No tin foil hat here, just a foot planted firmly in the future.

Screaming Banshee, the comments you make about power regulation/phasing apply to all power generation.

Costs of solar are reducing at an amazing rate for similar reasons to the size of plasmas in Charnwood increasing! Here’s an example of where solar is heading:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/01/21/plastic.solar.panel.revolution/index.html?hpt=C2

We’ve already made the switch to solar hot water and solar PV. Our household produces more energy than we consume. Even without any of the Govt enticements, our system is a great long term investment.

In terms of baseload power, here’s some articles that may help you to understand why, when the sun stops shining, we won’t be without power:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/12/02/3081889.htm?site=brisbane
http://johnquiggin.com/index.php/archives/2009/07/22/the-myth-of-baseload-power-demand/

Our bigger challenge will be storing excess energy. Fortunately there are a variety of options available, which, while expensive, would pale into insignificance next to long term nuclear power costs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_storage

Add in that in the future we are more likely to be buying rechargeable electric cars, and there is the possibility that our cars may one day in the future even form part of our storage grid. Denmark is trialling such a system on an isolated island.

An exciting future, indeed!

OpenYourMind said :

And before you start saying baseload or nighttime, do some research on molten salt solar plants, demand shaping, baseload myth and power storage. Coal faces a similar management problem in that the plant runs at 100%, but demand varies.

OpenYourMind: This is a photovoltaic installation, not solar thermal. Baseload, etc. is a concern.

And before you start saying baseload or nighttime, do some research on molten salt solar plants, demand shaping, baseload myth and power storage. Coal faces a similar management problem in that the plant runs at 100%, but demand varies.

Seems you have a well fitting tin-foil-hat there Open.

In reality, the grid operates as one with steam turbines turning in unison at 3000rpm to produce 50Hz. When there is a drop in load (consumption) the frequency will increase slightly until the steam injection is reduced a little, when there is an increase in load the frequency will drop slightly until the steam injection is increased. The result is that the frequency hovers all day long around the 50Hz mark by about 0.05Hz and the systems incorporate a long term (24 hr) frequency meter which displays the frequency to about 10 decimal points and adjustments are made to bring the long term frequency to a spot on 50Hz so that anything with a clock that relies on mains frequency is accurate.

As for nuclear power plants, the operation is identical except it is nuclear fuel rather than coal that heats the water to generate steam.

Think about a steam train, same process, coal burns to generate steam which provides momentum albeit piston rather than turbine. Somehow they managed to worked out how to stop a steam train, go up and down hills and so forth so your coal burning management problems are nothing but..hot air.

Several methods are in place to cope with day/night demand changes, one such is the generating capacity of the wivenhoe dam plant. During the nightime ‘excess energy’ is utilised to pump water up to a holding reservoir. During daytime peaks the water is released from the reservoir to provide extra generating capacity.

In order to deal with constant demands and the fluctuating output of the solar panels, you would require a hell of a lot more wivenhoe’s, or a substantial DC storage system.

When you factor in the cost to the environment and the sheer mass of solar generators that would be required to power a nation, I suggest it is you sir that should be doing some research.

dvaey said :

The only reason nuclear is getting expensive is because 99% of the cost now goes to legal challenges.

The reason nuclear is expensive is because they’re beginning to factor in the cost of waste disposal (if and when they ever work out how to do that) and decommissioning at the end of its life. Once you take those into account you can kiss return on investment tata.

dvaey wrote:

“The only reason nuclear is getting expensive is because 99% of the cost now goes to legal challenges. Just set it up in the middle of the continent and run some wires out that way.

I also have to wonder what the local airline pilots will think about a 100 hectare mirror sitting on the ground, reflecting the sun back up in their general direction? Has this even been considered?”

dvaey, it may be the legal costs, but they are still real costs.

Also, I’m not sure how much light is reflected back up to the pilots, considering that the electrical output of the PV cells depends upon as much absorption, and hence as little reflection as possible.

Felix the Cat said :

Good move. Don’t know why there isn’t some sort of legislation requiring new buildings, both commercial and residential, to have solar panels on them.

If the government was prepared to subsidise this cost, Id agree. Its one thing to force new buildings to install a $500 water tank or some double-glazed windows, its another to force new buildings to install solar panels which (even for a small house) could work out to 5-10% of the cost of the building.

OpenYourMind said :

Solidarity – nuclear is a crazy solution on every level. Solar is getting cheaper every year, nuclear more expensive. The financial risk in proposing a plant in Australia would be huge – no matter where you wanted to build it

The only reason nuclear is getting expensive is because 99% of the cost now goes to legal challenges. Just set it up in the middle of the continent and run some wires out that way.

I also have to wonder what the local airline pilots will think about a 100 hectare mirror sitting on the ground, reflecting the sun back up in their general direction? Has this even been considered?

Pandanus, it sounds like you need to learn a little more about solar.

Ha ha ha…

Pandanus77 said :

and after the first major hail storm it becomes an art installation!

And you think everyone with a solar hot water system needs to replace it after every hailstorm?