Inaction Buses.

Aha! Cf qualifier about time and energy being available! Maybe walking from Jerra to a gig at The Front in Lyneham is not viable. You’d get damn fit, though.

Walking?? From Jerra? Hmmmm 🙂

Virgin Blue vs Qantas Lounge. I’ll reserve comment given my four-day-a-week bread-winning job. I’ve used both this year and both have their good and bad points.

I’ll just say (and have said before) that my visit to the Virgin Blue lounge recently cost me $35 from my own pocket and I considered it money well spent when compared to sitting for a comparable time in the airport’s other waiting areas.

Back OT, if you have the time and the energy, walking is a damn good alternative to the car or the buses. (Just observe some consideration when competing for space with bikes and roller-bladers if you use the bike paths.)

Yeah, I like the airport public transport services whether we are talking Sydney, Brisbane or Adelaide. Even Melbourne has a great Skybus.. very nice and affordable too. Whenever traveling alone, these sorts of services are a great money saver. Cabs are good when there are more than one traveller.

Speaking of Virgin Blue lounge – out of interest, how do you rate it versus the QANTAS club?? Thinking of swapping carriers…

Comment at #98 was about trains from airport to Sydney CBD, btw.

I’m big raps for Sydney’s airport service when I’m working in the CBD, but I will NEVER, repeat NEVER again contemplate trying to use trains to go airport to Parramatta and/or return. Involuntary shudder, only mitigated by 2.5 hours in the Virgin Blue lounge.

Overheard said :

I still think cutting out the changeovers at hubs would entice a few more people to the buses.

Classic problem of Discrete Mathematics – how do you ensure that all points on the digraph are reachable utilizing the minimum number of routes (i.e. buses) within a set timeframe? Same thing happens at major rail hubs. Change trains to get to the Airport line.

Speaking of which, I was very pleasantly surprised that in Adelaide, they have a normal suburban bus service too and from the aiport. It’s fantastic!

bus wars… its the sequel to public holiday wars. stay tuned for the thriling conclusion to this epic saga…(i’m spoiling for a fight on the hospitals thread by the way)

i’m sick of this argument though.

i fundementally believe that public transport is a necessity in canberra due to the relatively high number of disadvanteged people in canberra.

i beleive the system could be better, but i’m also a realist and a pragmatist. i realise that while very frequent off peak routes might be deisrable they are just not feasible when the govt has to make decsions on what to spend limited public funds on; i beleive that extending funding on off peak buses services that are rarely used anyway would be inappropriate when there are schools and hospitals and roads that need the money.

i believe that the bus system is being run pretty well considering the realities of the situation. most users of the buses get to school and work and have no dramas.

feel free to tick off what you agree with and not what you dont.

i’m out.

Yeah, fair point, radonezh. I just have bad memories of standing (sans shelter) in Kambah for many years when the voice on the radio has just told me it’s minus five. And I too have gone the other way and stood with the sweat pouring down when catching a late bus in the morning or escaping in the afternoon.

(But you’re dead right about experiencing weather. I’m about to spend four nights in a tent in what I suspect will be quite a lot of rain, but that’s minor inconvenience for me and a great result for the part of the world I’ll be in. (Oh, and if Mutley’s lurking, I’ll be having lots of baked potatoes, a few sausage sandwiches plus a vat or three of Coopers.))

I still think cutting out the changeovers at hubs would entice a few more people to the buses.

Overhead: Freezing platform – I used to have the opposite problem in the Brisbane summers. Nonetheless, good shelter design (not necessarily expensive design) can do a lot to overcome such problems. It’s not a bad thing to experience the weather occasionally.

tom-tom.

He loves me really, but we’re having bus wars!

*chuckle*

@ Granny #91. Who was that aimed at?

Oh, please!

You’re the one who is damning the people who need buses. I don’t need them. I have a car which I’m about to pick up and drive so I don’t have to use your abysmal ‘Claytons’ transport system – hopefully ever again. Never would be too soon!

Anyone who really cared would be grateful to find out what problems people were experiencing so they could actually improve the system and make it better.

You just want to shut people down so you can pretend that it’s being managed so wonderfully.

Well, it isn’t.

I might have mentioned in a related thread that the reason I don’t catch buses now is that happily I live within a 20 min walk to the city, so no need. Some days I need the car as the Campbell to Manuka (early morning) to Civic, or Campbell to City to Manuka (returning late night), sometimes adding in a side trip to Turner/O’Connor before or after work, is just not viable on the buses without an interminable (that word again) wait or waits.

When I was living in Kaleen (much as I detested living there), the bus service at the time was more than adequate. If I stuffed my times, I only had to walk about 200-300m down the road to hop onto another route. But then, I was only one bus into town from there and I was living temporarily in Hawker when the change came that meant you couldn’t just grab the one bus into town.

Call me old-fashioned and just a bit self-serving, but waiting on a freezing platform in the middle of winter is not the way I want to start or end a day.

I reckon the “it worked in the 80s” reminisces are about 50% wishful hindsight, 25% due to the lighter traffic in those days and 25% due to the larger pot of (Federally financed) funding available relative to the city size at that time.

Things indeed were better when the Feds picked up the tab for everything – but they don’t do that anymore.

i give up. you win. i agree 100%. buses should be at your beck and call whenever you need them, damm the expense and damm the other people who need them as well.

Actually read the thread. It worked in the eighties. It sucks now.

Only if people are willing to give up the convenience of their cars, which they won’t.

I am not sure that is true. For one thing, it assumes that Canberra people believe cars to be more convenient than light rail in all situations – particularly the situation of the daily morning commute.

For another thing, it does not take into account that fact that many commuting families maintain a second car just so they can do the whole “morning juggle” (kids to school, dad and/or mum to work etc). The cost of ownership for cars is always greater than the cost of utilizing public transport – regardless of which city you happen to live in.

If I lived near an ACTION bus route, I can tell you now that I would certainly use it. $35 a week for a round public transport commute sure beats the loan repayments, petrol, maintenance, rego and insurance costs on a second car. That’s not to mention parking fees if you happen to work in a pay-parking area. And if public transport were an option for me, I could go to the pub after work for a couple of drinks with the workmates and get home without having to worry about drink driving. The local businesses benefit from the increased patronage!

actually read what i’ve written.

limited resources; unlimited desires.

the bus schedule cant please everyone, they try and please as many as possble. simple as that.

(bangs head on brick wall)

Why would I comment on the buses when I gave up on the hopeless service years ago and bought a car?

It has nothing to do with me.

I am quite capable of reading a timetable. Pity they’re not capable of turning up. Or running them at such times that I wouldn’t have had to leave two hours beforehand to get to Civic.

But why should you care as long as it meets your needs?

Talk down to me all you like. I don’t have to prove my intelligence to anybody least of all someone as arrogant and patronising as you.

Why don’t you just send the red army around to arrest me, comrade, then you can silence any criticism of the ‘party’ once and for all ….

Why are we harping on about light rail in a city of 300K? People don’t use the buses, why would they use light rail?

There are more pressing matters such as hospitals, health, schools, dams, etc.

And besides, light rail down Northbourne avenue would seem to me to add to the congestion.

I hope this doesn’t come across as a rant, but here goes…

My understanding (I could be wrong) is that the median strips for most of Canberra’s wide boulevards/avenues/roads were intended to be a corridor for light rail (since the city was designed at a time when motor cars were only just starting to become a practical option for transport). It shouldn’t add anything to the congestion.

The reasons why people would use rail when they might not use buses is manifold:

a) Modern light rail is more spacious and comfortable than buses – the vehicles do not jolt around, they are air conditioned, they a low-floor designs that easily accommodate wheelchairs, prams and elderly people. You can sit on a light rail vehicle reading a book without being jolted around like you would on a bus

b) For relatively new public transport users, there is a psychological factor around being able to see the route which the tracks take – meaning you are less likely to get on the wrong tram and end up somewhere completely different as you could if you catch the wrong bus.

c) The existence of light-rail only sections (such as the median strips, and the existing rail corridors that run from Tuggeranong to Queanbeyan and Kingston) mean that you can completely avoid traffic because the light rail has a dedicated track.

In terms of hospitals being important, I absolutely agree. However, one way to improve funding steams to hospitals is actually to keep people out of them in the first place. Annually in the ACT, there are about 20 people killed on the roads, and approximately 420 serious injuries requiring treatment. About a third of the latter are lengthy hospitalizations related to serious life-threatening injuries. All of this can be avoided.

Conversely, the annual fatality rates for rail are much, much lower. For most years in Australia, we can expect to have zero passenger deaths (discounting deliberate self-harm and deaths due to natural causes. The biggest rail accident in recent Australian history (Waterfall) resulted in just 7 passenger deaths. A mere blip in comparison to the road toll.

It seems strange to me that we as a society can tolerate 1800 people a year nation-wide losing their lives just traveling from point A to point B on the roads, yet when it comes to investing in infrastructure projects that can contribute to safer, cleaner, more livable cities, we always baulk at the cost. We seem able to blot out the slaughter taking place on our roads annually. Why?

One articulated light rail vehicle can easily take 300 cars off the road. Its safer, cleaner, greener and more comfortable (the commuter can read a book or have a conversation instead of concentrating on the road).

ACT Light Rail said :

Canberra was designed for cars, this is true, but it was not designed for the volume of congestion it now has. Ive seen figures (that the ACT government is using) that congestion will double by 2030. Would we be better off with light rail then ?

Ultimately light rail in the ACT will be a political decision, and thats where im focussing my efforts.

Damien, I thought I read somewhere that the Burley-Griffin plan did include consideration of light rail (hence the wide centre-strips on most of the boulevards and roads)??

A very large cost in retrofitting light rail is working out where all the sewerage, power, water and comms cables are and ensuring that there is a means of accessing them for maintenance when the track is laid over the top. In older cities, this is a major issue, because most of the time no-one knows where all the pipes actually are. In Canberra, I would think that this would be less of an issue, particularly if it is true that the streets were designed with this in mind.

The other thing we have is an exist (albeit crumbling) piece of rail infrastructure that already connects Tuggeranong to Kingston via Jerra, Queanbeyan and Fyshwick. This is a major daily commuting corridor.

The cost of rail never looks attractive on paper, but it will always be more expensive in future, so it is best done now.

I applaud your efforts in lobbying government for a light rail solution.

Inner north buses are woeful.

I’ve also read that bus drivers spend a bit of time sitting around waiting for the next route to start. So I’ve got a radical idea.

Bus starts off with a huge, slow spiral of one suburb – this allows the elderly, those with prams and little kids, lazy people not in a hurry etc, to hop on close to their house. Then the bus goes to a suburb centre point (or maybe two or three of them), and then proceeds in short order to civic.

It could stop at only the intervening suburb’s main stops – two or three of them.

This would make commute type trips quicker, while also allowing for the grannies etc to get access to busses without a long walk.

WMC, I’m talking about fixed routes that leave within 2 minutes of each other – plus you need to remember the reason all of these things have to be factored in is because bus routes in Canberra tend to go from one suburb in one district to one in a completely different district (and before you start, this model really doesn’t cut traveling time for those who just happen to be traveling between those two unlikely ends of a journey). What I am asking is – why can’t all the buses begin and terminate at the district center of the suburbs they cover, which I’m sure, if my herculean intelligence that smashes little bunnies and laughs is to be believed, could allow them to have more flexibility with the routes and plan them so they have half-an-hour to 15 mins intervals between them.

And what’s wrong with Lithuanian Lesbians?

And JC, I’m kind of inner-ish eastern melbourne – it takes about 25 mins by train into the city (which is acceptable considering the physical distance). I’m only saying innerish because there’s few more districts east of here, but I don’t know what this suburb is considered to be in terms of general location. It should be noted too, that I moved here from the inner-north, where the buses are woreful.

I had no car, so I had no choice, but London is certainly a place where public transport works quite well, excusing the annual summer tube strikes.

Perhaps things have changed dramatically over the last 10 years. I recently moved back after about 5 years over there, and London has the same problems we have here to a degree. Buses not turning up for 45 mins, then 3 of them come within 5 minutes, none of which are the route number you want. The amount of people packed into Tube carriages in plain inhumane (they would certainly not allow cattle to be that densely packed into transporters). The public transport in London is coming close to breaking point – and it will be interesting to see how they cope with the 2010 Olympics. Keeping in mind that cash fares for one trip, be it 1 stop or 15 is around 4 pounds (over $9 Aussie) on the tube. Granted it is cheaper using a pre-paid “oyster card”.

We have our own public transport issues here too. I don’t understand arguments that a light-rail would have been useful had it been built 50 years ago. Then people grant that in 30 years time from now it might be useful?! I believe we should keep looking at all transport options. Those who choose to drive, will always drive. The public avoidance of public transport will continue to work against improvement, rather with it. If we want a working public transport system, we need to use what we have, support it and push for improvements. If we all start using it, and improvements do not happen, they will very quickly miss the income. My wife catches the bus and has no complaints. I choose to ride, which I enjoy. And we occasionally drive when the weather sucks or we need the car during the day.

Do what suits each of you, you will anyway. All I am saying is support public transport, rather then bag it. We have what we have, let’s start using it, then hope for improvements along the way.

eh?, my opionion not the labor party’s.

and by the way in future dont suggest i’ve said things i havent.

most users dont comment on riotact granny.

and your needs are not being ignored, you still get a bus service. if you were organised enough to read a timetable then this wouldn’t be a problem.
i do think its important to provide a bus serivce for disadvantged people, i have never said otherwise.

i’ve just said that there are more important things to spend public money on then your convinience. I think we have a fundemental disagreement on this.call me crazy but i think there are some issues that aren’t just about you.

now beore you respond, go back and read over what i’ve said then form a logical argument as to why the govt should spend millions of dollars, at the expense of other people, just to make you happy.

and by the way you havent answered my question from before; when action was consulting about new bus services what did you tell them? because right now it just looks like your sooking when you didn’t take the oppurtunity to have your say.

They certainly have money for anything they want to buy. And as for most users … have you even been reading the thread?

If you think providing services for employed commuters is what a bus service is about, that it is acceptable to ignore the needs of the usually more disadvantaged daytime users such as pensioners, the unemployed and the carers then I feel sorry for you because I always thought the Labor Party was supposed to be about the little people, the battlers and equality, and I think you’ve lost your way.

But whatever … do something, don’t do it. I’ll have my car back soon enough.

granny; first of all bringing up the grassby statue and so on is irrevelant; they are relatively small one off purchases while the bus system is a large ongoing cost. you’re not comparing apples with apples.

you assert that we dont have a decent level of service, i disagree and i’d think most users would agree with me. (most users catch peak services along busy routes)

to get the half hourly off peak services in the suburbs you desire either drivers would have to be moved away from peak services where they are needed more or the number of drivers would have to be increased, (by roughly a third i would guess)

now beside the fact that these new drivers can’t just be magicked out of thin air they’d also be quite expensive. Now the govt doesn’t have an unlimited supply of money so an increase in funding here means a decrease elsewhere and i just dont think it would be a smart decision to divert funds away from schools or hospitals just so a few buses, that will be close to empty most of the time anyway, can make your life easier.

@Damien #72

Damien, yep, you got me, and fair enough too. I’ve caught one ACTION bus in the last 10 years I’d say.

Good on you for attempting what you believe to be positive change, you may well be right. Certainly the longer term view (ie. 30 years +) is your strongest point. If you’re focusing on political change, then I’m sure you’ll be familiar with the somewhat shorter term view many pollies tend to immerse themselves in.

As to your question, what would it take for me to use regular public transport? That would be the point at which public transport becomes more convenient than driving my car, be that financial or time wise. I accept that mine is a selfish and singular view.

The only time I’ve used public transport regularly was when I lived in London around 10 years ago. I had no car, so I had no choice, but London is certainly a place where public transport works quite well, excusing the annual summer tube strikes. Clearly it is a largely a moot point comparing London and Canberra in regards to public transport with such vast population differences, but I’m just giving an example of when I have used public transport in the past.

I have also lived in Melbourne, but my drive to work was 10-15 minutes and in the opposite direction to the main traffic flow. I also had free parking and part of my salary package at the time included a fuel card. So, again, there was no convenience factor to using public transport, even though the train network would have been a perfectly suitable option for me.

I have found that the strongest objection to light rail is from people who never use public transport. At a recent forum associated with preparing the ACT governments light rail business case, one prominent Canberran (who i will not name) said ‘I dont understand why we even need public transport, I’ve lived in canberra for 38 years and I’ve never caught a bus’. I was stunned, especially since this is one of the people involved in determining Canberras public transport future, but its important to capture all sides of the argument as well.

I would like to ask people on this forum who dont use public transport ‘What would it take for you to use public transport to replace your car for everyday commuting to work/school ?’

regards

Damien Haas

Try getting a bus from Ngunnawal to get you to work in Civic at 0700… Impossible.

The buses that can get me there before 9 (Count 2 of them) are either crowded or compacted.

Incentive ?

and in the mib 80s people actually used the service. It was probably the zoning exercise that drove (literally)away

I havent caught a bus, ever since…early september, after my original bus got cancelled, next one was too full to pick me up, and then i had to wait for ANOTHER bus. so, 1 and a half hour wait.
I then gave up, and just drove to school/work/.etc

(Not to mention, even in peak hour, it takes only 10 minutes at most. Compared to half an hour bus trip. Time is money gosh darn it!)

I agree. They’ve done it before. There’s no reason they can’t do it again.

JC I agree totally. In the 80’s (being pre driving age) it was cheap and easy to get around using Action. I still say, why doesn’t another bus company come in like what happened with the taxis and even Virgin with Qantas???

ACT Light Rail said :

I dont live in a light rail wonderland, but I have been to cities where integrated public transport serves the community properly. Unlike the many keyboard bound whingers, i am trying to bring about change in a positive way. Im happy to debate anywhere, anytime on the benefits of public transport.

Im also trying to look 10-20 and 50 years into Canberras future. Public transport can be used to guide development and reduce the amount of greenspace used for carparks, housing etc.

Canberra was designed for cars, this is true, but it was not designed for the volume of congestion it now has. Ive seen figures (that the ACT government is using) that congestion will double by 2030. Would we be better off with light rail then ?

Ultimately light rail in the ACT will be a political decision, and thats where im focussing my efforts.

regards

Damien Haas

All light rail could hope to do is replace the existing intertown service. The population density of Canberra cannot justify running it futher out into the suburbs and our inner suburbs are well (and better) served by the frequent busses that pass through them.

In reagrds to replacement of the intertown the reason why the 333 was replaced with the through running we see now is so people do not have to change modes, which is considered a dissinsentive to public transport use. Sadly though only 1/3rd of the routes through run so it is a moot point.

Personaly I would like to see what we had back in the mid 80’s. Back then buses from interchanges to the suburbs left every 30 minutes. Half at 03 and 33 past the hour and the rest at 18 and 48 past (Belconnen anyway). All inbound buses connected with a 333 and all 333’s connected with a suburban bus. The max wait you would have on a connecting 333 was just over 15 minutes. If an inbound 333 was late they would hold the outbound buses a few minutes so they could connect (ever noticed the traffic lights at each platform in Belconnen?) It all started to turn to mud when they did away with 50/50 departure timing.

Since Canberra is designed around cars, why not build an electric car factory making affordable and cheap to operate cars 😀

I dont live in a light rail wonderland, but I have been to cities where integrated public transport serves the community properly. Unlike the many keyboard bound whingers, i am trying to bring about change in a positive way. Im happy to debate anywhere, anytime on the benefits of public transport.

Im also trying to look 10-20 and 50 years into Canberras future. Public transport can be used to guide development and reduce the amount of greenspace used for carparks, housing etc.

Canberra was designed for cars, this is true, but it was not designed for the volume of congestion it now has. Ive seen figures (that the ACT government is using) that congestion will double by 2030. Would we be better off with light rail then ?

Ultimately light rail in the ACT will be a political decision, and thats where im focussing my efforts.

regards

Damien Haas

It’s not a decent level of service. I would frankly rather give up statues of Al Grassby and ugly spikey things that no-one wants at Gungahlin marketplace. Or heated floors in the new superschool.

Frankly I don’t think half-hourly should be beyond the realms of possibility. Amazing what is in the coffers before an election. How quickly things change ….

Now I must choose between schools and hospitals and transport. I’m surprised I don’t have to give up garbage collection as well.

Thank you for the new bus shelters though. They are cool. I’m very excited about them.

: )

Lenient said :

Light rail probably won’t be the answer. It sounds good and would even be nice. But if only does an intertown service it isn’t really needed, because this is the only place the bus service actually works. And works well at that.

I think my friend Ed Zachary came to the same conclusion. Hence my point that rail could have been a good solution if it was set up 50 years ago, or at such time that inter town infrastructure was being built. Sorry to Mr Haas if my “logic” had to be spelt out.

I have no problems conceding that ACTION has its issues, but I still can’t see how adding a new “solution” to the mix is going to make anything better (considering the costs involved) when the new “solution” merely relieves the part of the current bus network that does seem to function quite well.

Once upon a time in Canberra there was only Aerial Taxis, now there are other taxi companies. What is there stopping another bus company filling in the Action gaps???

uh huh i’ll fix it, do you want to give up schools or hospitals?

there is a decent level of service. its not perfect and you might be inconvienced by it but really, the system works well when its needed most and okay the rest of the time. when the people running it need to make decisions on what gets funded you’ll have to excuse me for thinking its more important to spend the money on schools and hospitals than on making things easy for you.

No wonder you’re scaring the customers away in droves! Keep up the good work ….

A bus service with no buses is like a pub with no beer.

It’s not about my convenience, it’s about providing a half decent service to those who can’t afford private transport.

Hourly buses are frankly what I’d expect of a one-horse town not the capital city of a western nation.

Pathetic!

excellent to see that youve resorted to logic in your whine. actually look at what my point was before responding next time, its just not possible for a bus to be
scheduled just for your convienece, they are scheduled for the greatest good for the greatest number.

there is a bus schedule, either work around it or get a cab.

i’ll tell you what though, i’ll stand for the assembly next time, for the ‘fanatasy land where feasibility doesn’t matter party”
my core promise will be buses that arrive on your doorstep whenever you need, damm the cost (by the way it’ll be your preschooler who bears the brunt of it when i close all the schools to pay for this)

and just for the record exactly what did you say to action when they widely consulted about new bus routes? (i’m assuming your not just whinging on here and didn’t bother having your say when the option was available)

What’s the point in having one then?

It costs me a fortune to take taxis – $30 as opposed to $3 when I need to go somewhere.

And why? Because I’m a stay-at-home-mum and my preschooler and I need to use the bus during the day.

Well, sooooooory!!

I didn’t mean to exist or anything ….

granny my point here, you there

the bus doesn’t run specifically for your convinence; if you need that catch a cab.

its just not possible for a bus system to be able to be there whenever anybody needs it, thats why they consult with people, then set a schedule so it can be as good as possible for as many people as possible.

now to rant about light rail

i like the idea and in a perfect world we’d have it, but we dont so i have several reservations about the idea

firstly cost;
act light rail has quoted figures of 250-350 mill for a link between woden and civic etc, while i think these figures are very much on the optimistic side, i’d be putting it closer to the billion dollar mark, lets just for arguments sake take them as gospel. thats 250 million each for a link between tuggeranaong and woden, woden and weston creek, woden and civic, civic and belco, civic and gungahlin, (probably between these centres, russell offices and the airport aswell, but i wont include these in my costings) thats 1.25 billion already.
To put that in perspective, paying for that would mean giving up either the health or education systems or face at least another 10 ‘horror budgets’ complete with school closures and selling off of civics remaining carparks. i think this is too much to pay for a glorified trainset. i havent even mentioned ongoing costs and given that light rail would be running parralell to action between the two systems these costs are likely to be very high.

secondly; need.
action already runs good services along the routes light rail would cover and while light rail would free up buses for other routes so would buying ten more buses. (it would also cost a lot less.)

finally, nimbys
there will be a lot of people whinging about northbourne avenue having power lines and tracks down its centre and alot of people who dont like having a train over their back fence and i cant say i blame them

Do you want people to take the bus or not?

It’s not a whim. It’s every time I try to use the bloody thing with the crappy hourly service.

firstly i personally dont think there is a major problem with action, whenever i need the bus its pretty reliable and effeicent, that said i mostly use buses during peak periods on busy routes so my impressions may be skewed somewhat.
it irratates me however when people get upset about buses not fitting into their schedule because i think that these people miss the point of buses, they provide for the greatest convinence possible for the greatest number, if you have specific requirements that are outside the schdule this creates then you need a taxi, its just not feasible to run a bus service just on the whim of one person.
my impression is that action does a pretty good job for most of its passengers, school buses are pretty reliable and peak routes are well serviced, its not perfect but these users are doing pretty well.
action certainly could be better though, if i were king i’d push for more services to west/north belconnen for starters but then again if were king i’d be able to magic up some drivers to cover these routes and money to pay them, a skill i dont think the govt has.
I think that any problems action does have are due mostly to a lack of customers. triple the number of passengers and per passenger costs would be low enough to allow for the kind of improvements that would lead to a tripling in passenger numbers. its a cyclical problem and one that wont be solved until petrol costs so much that driving is not an option or money rains from the sky. (and just quietly i’d rather that money went on schools or hospitals)

There is no reason to have buses that leave 2 bloody minutes after each other, leaving an hour stretch between them.

You mean apart from the fact that it’s all mind-numbingly complicated? Given x suburbs, each serviced in two directions by bus routes of length y, calculate optimum departure times for town centre a linking route b to suburb c, then do the same for the other end, for all other connecting routes. There are many, many different values of a, b, c, y and z and you haven’t factored in other heavily and sometimes randomly fluctuating variables like traffic, passenger numbers etc yet.

But no, it can’t possibly be that difficult. It must be easy, and everybody else must just be idiots, cowering midgets to your colossal intellect, and as soon as you’ve finished your half-skim soy decaf lattecino and adjusted your beret in an art deco mirror you’ll get right on to solving the problem.

Have fun in Melbourne. You’ll fit right in with all the other black turtle-neck-wearing sooks. Maybe you can get Damien Haas to go with you so he can live in a light-rail wonderland and you can look at lesbian Lithuanian fringe art from a tram window together.

For me the bus service in Canberra was very good until December 2006 when Stanhope decided to slash funding to ACTION resulting in less frequent services. Passenger numbers declined and complaints increased so another attempt was made earlier this year to improve the service somewhat. This change came with a very expensive ratepayer funded promotional campaign to try and recoup passenger numbers. Numbers did increase but that was probably more to do with the oil price spike than anything else.

The number of buses passing my bus stop has declined with each of the last two network “upgrades” to the point that I almost never catch a bus simply because there isn’t one available even remotely when I need it.

Don’t even get me started on the pathetic excuse for a public transport system we have on weekends!!!

Lenient said :

Light rail probably won’t be the answer. It sounds good and would even be nice. But if only does an intertown service it isn’t really needed, because this is the only place the bus service actually works. And works well at that.

QFT

Light rail would just be another ongoing expense, and I still fail to see the benefit vs cost. We’re a small town.

Light rail probably won’t be the answer. It sounds good and would even be nice. But if only does an intertown service it isn’t really needed, because this is the only place the bus service actually works. And works well at that.

“1. How much is it going to cost to set up a light rail network linking Canberra’s major population and employment centres?

2. Is the current road network suitable for carrying an effective bus system between Canberra’s major population and employment centres?

3. After answering Q1, how far could that money go to fixing any deemed inefficiencies in Q2 and also assisting an improvement in bus services in the suburbs?

I think light rail would have been a great idea if it was set up in Canberra 50 years ago. Now, I just don’t see the point, when, surely, the money required to build such infrastructure would go a bloody long way to fixing ACTION’s current short falls???”

1. Recent government figures I saw had 54km of rail at 1-10 million per km. Id suggest a total network in one go solution beyong territory financial resources, but a link from say woden to civic, or gungahlin to civic could realistically cost 250-350m.

2. Clearly not. The government has been fixing the bus system since I arrived. is it any better ? It is being asked to do the wrong job. It is not a mass transit system, and thats what the passenger capacity requires. Passenger figures will never grow while they tinker with more buses. Light rail offers that solution and frees up the buses to service teh suburbs with greater frequency.

3. Buses arent the answer, the ACT should look to the future. A problem with ‘bus rapid transit’ is that govt treasuries inevitably try to economise and eventually the same problems that we have now continue.

You concede light rail is the solution, but want to persevere with a flawed model ? I have no answer to that logic.

regards

Damien Haas

Action must be pretty bad if Melbourne’s “it’s better to cancel a train than have it run late so it doesn’t make the ‘on time %’ look bad” trains get a good rap…

I actually got my driver’s licence specifically after a bus didn’t show up leaving me in the freezing cold another half hour, but it wasn’t a constant thing…

The best idea is for the govt to spend more on buses and collect less in fares. Painful in the short term, but eventually they get to save on roads.

I’ve rarely had a problem with Action under the new timetable and I commute daily. Sometimes buses are late, but ususally this is a regular thing and everyone who takes that bus knows about it. I’d miss the bus if it came on time. The expresso buses are a boon.

I’ve caught buses in Melb a fair bit. The thing I’ve found they do better are after hours services arriving at more regular intervals. I wouldn’t say they are any more direct than Canberra, just the nature of their route design sometimes makes travel quicker because they feed into train stations. Everything is more spread around – Canberras like a tower of funnels.

Also, the ticket inspectors in Melbourne look and act like bouncers. No wooly jumpers there.

We are already tipping in about $1.2 MILLION dollars PER WEEK for ACTION to provide the abomination of a service we endure.

How much is required to provide a decent service?

Surely somewhere in this world is a bus service comparable to ACTION (population, distance, density, peak use, etc) which comes close to working properly. ACTION management need all the help they can get.

Holden Caulfield said :

lion said :

Actually, Canberra was designed to be car-orientated.

How is that counter productive to the city catering for an efficient bus network?

Because it means we have relativly direct routes between places which is great for a car, but unless you have 10 bus routes in each suburb going different places the bus doesn’t work as well. So we end up with a situation where the bus needs to make a more convoluted route to go round and pick-up the passengers.

For example it takes me 25 minutes to drive to work even in “peek hour”. If I get the bus it takes 25 minutes just to get to the first interchange because it has to (shock horror) stop and pick up passengers and then another 30 minutes or so to get to my final destination.

Clearly the OP is in the inner area of Melbourne. Head out into the suburbs and you will find a service just like ACTION, same too with Syndey or any other major city.

Bottom line to have a good reliable service (like we had years ago) it needs to be subsidised by the government much more than it currently does and they need to expect that most of the time the buses will be running around with 10-15 people. Peak hour excepted of course.

So are we as the ACT tax payer willing to pay through taxes?

Hey, Mr Grammer, nice spelling. Path is spelt with a P not an O.

It’s (note apostrophe use) the fault of those who don’t (again) patronise the bus service. I’m (once more) talkin’ (look) ’bout (see, again) motorist, cyclist (who are really to blame for everything) and, the scum of the earth, pedestrians (as in ring-ring get of the oath, you don’t pay GST on bikes, lycra and inner tubes, get off).

The bus service was really once good. I didn’t even use a timetable, but now it is rather sad. If more people used it would be OK, but people don’t use because it isn’t. What a Catch-22. Don’t worry The Greens will have a solution. Pity the AMP didn’t get, at least they would have euthanased the cyclist which would have helped (somehow).

I’ve been without a car nearly four weeks now and I can’t count how many times I’ve had to get a lift or take a taxi because the hourly buses just won’t fit with my scheduling needs.

“Actually, Canberra was designed to be car-orientated.”

Too bloody true! The cardie-clad pencil-pushers who run the town seem to have only recently realised that this thing called an oil shock came along a generation ago — and that there have been a couple since then.

They also made all the car trips we have to take longer by making sure e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g w-a-s s-p-r-e-a-d o-u-t. That makes the trips more expensive — and road construction more expensive too.

This town is unnecessarily large. Too large for such a small population, let alone such a small revenue base, to be able to have an efficient and effective bus network.

Just got back from Brisbane, refusing to catch a single taxi I was quite impressed by the public transport there. Buses, Trains, Ferries it was great.

Canberra should be a dream to setup for buses..

lion said :

Actually, Canberra was designed to be car-orientated.

How is that counter productive to the city catering for an efficient bus network?

ACT Light Rail said :

The average time for an action service is 53 minutes. It is because action has a great deal of area to cover, and a limited number of buses.

The best solution would be light rail mass transit between major population and employment centres, with an integrated bus service operating at increased frequencies in the suburbs.

regards

Damien Haas

1. How much is it going to cost to set up a light rail network linking Canberra’s major population and employment centres?

2. Is the current road network suitable for carrying an effective bus system between Canberra’s major population and employment centres?

3. After answering Q1, how far could that money go to fixing any deemed inefficiencies in Q2 and also assisting an improvement in bus services in the suburbs?

I think light rail would have been a great idea if it was set up in Canberra 50 years ago. Now, I just don’t see the point, when, surely, the money required to build such infrastructure would go a bloody long way to fixing ACTION’s current short falls???

“The state of buses in this city really blows my mind. Canberra is a city where public transport should work. It has several well-defined urban centers. It’s basically an ideal bus city! “

Actually, Canberra was designed to be car-orientated.

stray said :

yep, getting the bus to belco from dickson and ainslie is a dream…oh thats right, it doesnt exist…its pretty terrible considering the amount of student share houses in that area too, and they cant get to UC…??

Yes there is, the 7.

http://www.action.act.gov.au/Weekday-2008Network/Route_7.html

The average time for an action service is 53 minutes. It is because action has a great deal of area to cover, and a limited number of buses.

The best solution would be light rail mass transit between major population and employment centres, with an integrated bus service operating at increased frequencies in the suburbs.

regards

Damien Haas

Deadmandrinking said :

Well, it’s great to hear everything’s good for you. Meanwhile, there’s over 300,000 other people in Canberra…

No wonder city parking is a problem then if they all work in Civic. :p

jakez said :

Ahh yes the 333, good memories.

Public transport in Melbourne is an absolute dream. Despite supposedly serious problems, I personally haven’t had a problem in Sydney either.

Canberra, it’s never a good experience and frequently an awful one.

I thought the good citizens of Sydney were just having a whinge at the state of the trains, but on my last visit there a few weeks ago it was horrendous. I thought I was an extra in a scene from Dr Zhivago, waiting for interminably (no pun intended) long times on platforms and then herded onto an overfull cattle wagon. Getting through crowds is always a hassle because 4 out of every 5 people (young/old) are on Planet iPod.

I think I’ve used ACTION buses as infrequently as to use one full ten-ride bus card so far this year, and am grateful for that small mercy.

I think that one of the problems is that various suburbs are wealthier than others, alongside smaller populations per suburb. An example is Hawker. It’s probably not cost effective for ACTION to really cater or care much for Hawker. I agree that the bus service is crap at best, but the average wage in Hawker is above average, and I bet that a lot of Hawker residences who wouldn’t bus it even if there was a good service.

I live in Hawker, but I catch the bus by driving 5 minutes to Cook. Cook has a frequent and reliable bus service. Every 15 minutes, usually crowded.

Well, it’s great to hear everything’s good for you. Meanwhile, there’s over 300,000 other people in Canberra…

Syntax error, haha.

Deadmandrinking said :

Until the ones about fuel prices and city parking come along…

I have free parking at my work, which isn’t in the city, so no care on that point. Fuel prices are a pain, but my “zippy” little 1.6 is good for reasonably economy if I behave.

amarooresident said :

As eh steve pointed out, Melbournians hate their public transport, particularly the trains. Barely a day goes by without a story in the Herald Sun about how crap the trains are.

Melburnians are spoiled by one of the greatest cities in the world.

IF not I

I you Harden up, you’ll find yourself in Murrumburrah.

As eh steve pointed out, Melbournians hate their public transport, particularly the trains. Barely a day goes by without a story in the Herald Sun about how crap the trains are.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

This is Canberra. Harden up and buy a car.

Harden up and drive it properly, then.

This is Canberra. Harden up and buy a car.

stray said :

we cant all move to melbourne.

Oh, but don’t we wish we could.

Why…is anyone earning over $100,000 crying poor? Only one boat? 🙁

Deadmandrinking said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Posts like these ease my conscience at driving myself to work each day.

Until the ones about fuel prices and city parking come along…

No, Rudd can give all the car owners a one off payment to help them through…….just so long as they aren’t earn over $100 000/annum.

It’s called the great Aussie handout, don’t ya know!

yep, getting the bus to belco from dickson and ainslie is a dream…oh thats right, it doesnt exist…its pretty terrible considering the amount of student share houses in that area too, and they cant get to UC…??
oh and i could go on, but we all know it, they know it, the govt knows it…so whats left to do…we cant all move to melbourne.

Holden Caulfield said :

Posts like these ease my conscience at driving myself to work each day.

Until the ones about fuel prices and city parking come along…

Posts like these ease my conscience at driving myself to work each day.

I think the biggest isssues with buses is with the services outside of the ‘intertown’ routes. This obviously needs to be looked at, but it seems Action like to turn a blind eye to it all.

20 Minutes is a luxury compared to Canberra’s waits.

The trains from where I am (a decent way out of the city) are fine, though.

As a reader of The Age, I can tell you the timing stinks on this article!

‘Train Chaos after Timetable Change’

TRAIN travellers have told of “chaos” and additions of up to 20 minutes to morning trips caused by new Connex timetables for three of the city’s busiest lines.

Full article at http://www.theage.com.au/national/train-chaos-after-timetable-change-20081110-5lq9.html

Action’s not so bad.

I don’t think it was ever very good.

Getting from anywhere to anywhere else took many hours and a return trip was basically a day gone.

And the weekend service!

Ahh yes the 333, good memories.

Public transport in Melbourne is an absolute dream. Despite supposedly serious problems, I personally haven’t had a problem in Sydney either.

Canberra, it’s never a good experience and frequently an awful one.

And sadly, the bus system here in Canberra some ten or so years ago used to be very good.

Back in the days of the 333? (was it?)

We had exactly the same response during a recent trip to Melbourne. Not only do the buses, trains and trams show up, but they also run frequently and the transfers are nicely timed.

It was quite amazing. The locals thought we were odd. tehy don;t seem to realise just how bad they could have it.

Sorry to hear about your missing buses. In the early days of Gungahlin, buses turned up only if they felt like it. It was nothing to be an hour late for college because the bus failed to show. I’d say nothing has changed.