11 November 2007

Police minister endorses use of lethal force to subdue offenders

| Jonathon Reynolds
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The ABC have several reports on the shooting that occurred in Phillip yesterday. The first one was ‘Knife-wielding man’ shot by police, and a follow up article appeared today ACT Police Minister defends shooting.

Whilst the individual was not killed by the shooting, it sends a scary message

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More spending on mental health facilities and services might prevent some of these situations from occurring.

Ingee, if you’d read the media, old mate was going nuts before police arrived. So who was incompetent prior to their arrival? I can hear you saying “Not him, no way…”
The cops arrived and dealt with what they were presented with.
You are an naive, claustrophobic, ‘bad things shouldn’t happen’ fool.
You are exactly correct, however, when you say “desperately clutching at the last thing left”. That’s the time when a firearm can, and should be used. If you want to second guess the decision, get some balls and go and try it out.
By the way, they did use capsicum spray to no effect. And again, if you read the media and the document released to the public relating to tazers, you would realise that these are not general issue, only to the tactical team. This might be hard for you to believe, but a higly intoxicated person with knifes who is threatening to kill police is not often going to wait for the appropriate resources to turn up before getting impatient.
For christ’s sake, get out of your own bizarre reality, and come and experience what everyone else can obviously sees.

This situation was hardly run of the mill! So please, enlighten us as to how you would competently resolve this situation!

Perhaps instead of shouting incompetence from behind a computer screen, you should have a go at the job?

Deadmandrinking8:30 pm 16 Nov 07

Ingee…the officers themselves weren’t incompetent. The guy was coming at them with a knife and capsicum spray was ineffective. What would you have done in their boots?

Ingeegoodbee8:25 pm 16 Nov 07

You would imagine that getting on top of a situation that included a knife wielding psycho might involve controlling the chap with the knife – there’d be a bunch of ways to manage that – remember all those things like capsicum spray, tasers, etc that we were told would be vital tools that the police could use to avoid shooting some wired tool with a knife! You should – they were your taxes the Government was spending.

It just seems like a pretty obvious conclusion that when you bust a cap in some loons butt you’re pretty much desperately clutching at the last thing left. We shouldn’t be paying taxes to have people screw up badly enough to have to nail a chap because they cant manage a run of the mill disarm-and-neutralize situation.

The Ministers support id just a bit of spin designed to sound like a hard-man, get all the lame brains nodding in approval and distract from the fact the whole thing happened because the police are incompetent – the logical outcome of under training and under resourcing.

Deadmandrinking1:16 am 16 Nov 07

Too silly? For Riot-Act?

Now you’re just being silly

Deadmandrinking9:42 pm 15 Nov 07

But I’m batman!

You needn’t worry about my safety DMD, you wouldn’t get within 5 paces before MiniMe shot you fair in the leg 🙂

Deadmandrinking7:28 pm 15 Nov 07

*shuts ears with fingers and sings as Dr Evil speaks, for the latter’s safety*

Yes, Ingee, it would be worth having a lot into this lad’s mental history. In the article, he is quoted as saying ‘I’ve been sprayed before’. That indicates that the police have had dealings with him before.

However, the cops are not shrinks. They are there (supposedly) to ensure the safety of citizens and the maintenance of law and order. If there was a conceivable way of predicting and preventing this incedent, it should have been done by someone else at an earlier time. The police did the best they could.

(Sorry about the threats, doc, but you see Lord Maelinar taught me well. Threats of violence on the internets always make you correct, and they make your dick bigger. Btw, Maelinar, if you read this comment {I haven’t seemed to be able to have an online tussle with you this week}, I’d like to inform you that I’ll be at the Pot Belly Bar in Belconnen on Friday night. I think I’ll make a habit of informing you and other internet tough-guys of my weekend outings, just in case they want to snipe me down ;))

Ingee – with your seemingly infinite wisdom, please enlighten us as to how you would best manage the situation?

I’ve noticed you’re more than willing to suggest the Police were incompetent, but please put yourself in their shoes and tell us! We’re all ears (well eyes).

Ingeegoodbee5:34 pm 15 Nov 07

Trolls aside, is there any point in debating the idea that shooting someone as a point of last resort reflects a failure to manage a situation? If they chap with the knife is getting into a situation where he can do damage, dos’t that suggest that the situation is out of control?

Mr Evil – not lesser at all. Clearly your evil-ness is well regarded around here as you seem to have already upset DMD long before I arrrived.

I can however say that to be truly credible and better than everyone else, one must have a PHD :p

Now let’s see who that upsets……

Deadmandrinking1:24 pm 15 Nov 07

Well, we see eye to eye then. All good.

Deadmandrinking1:16 pm 15 Nov 07

Well…questions all answered then…

Except the bit about expecting everyone to function the same way you do. What’s the go with that, huh?

(I’m taking this site less seriously by the minute. Hopefully, it’s just a mood.)

Deadmandrinking1:08 pm 15 Nov 07

If you read my post, you would notice that I said…
“I’ve no qualms about the actions of the police in this case. The young man breached the last line of defense before lethal force and it’s only a miracle he didn’t get killed.”

That pretty much pre-answers your question, doesn’t it?

I’m talking about what happens in terms of consequences now he’s survived and going through the courts.

Deadmandrinking12:48 pm 15 Nov 07

You stopped me from double-posting you evil bastard! This relationship is over, honey!

Deadmandrinking12:47 pm 15 Nov 07

Oh, and sorry to double-post, but I hadn’t finished before I said ‘say it’. Thumper – it’s not an ‘excuse’ per se, but it’s a reason – and an indication that the young man was not in his usual frame of mind, therefore it is a problem that can be addressed and the young man can move on to do something better with his life. You don’t respond to extreme stress (and I mean extreme, usually caused by additional mental illnesses as well) the way he does, Thumper? That’s good. Real good. But don’t expect everyone to function exactly the same way as you do. If you do, then society is not for you. Go live in the desert or something.

(and honestly, who reads sigs in detail?)

I love you DMD!

Deadmandrinking12:35 pm 15 Nov 07

I honestly thought you were Mr Evil with a new sig. There can’t possibly be two ‘evils’ in this town that are just as idiotic, can there?
There are? Shit! Canberra fails.
I hate you too, Mr Evil, so my comment’s still valid.

(anyone got a better way to save face?)

“Geez Mr. Evil? Too hard to read? I had not trouble. It might have been an intellegent post. On Riot-Act? No way!
Perhaps comments should be divided into two sections now, the Mr Evil section, with only one syllable-words used, and the person-with brain section. I’m going to kick off this trend….

******************Mr Evil Bit*********************

You are stoo-pud

****************No read more Mr Evil**************”

I am the lesser of two Evils!

I’m not a cop, but the explanination is based on my time in the military


Its not about shoot to kill or shoot to wound. Its about shooting a person to stop their course of action/s. To do that you shoot at the centre of seen mass. Why? Because you try and shoot someone in the leg or arm (deliberatly) when they are moving, runing etc. Its a smaller target area. It you shoot for an arm and miss you get a knife in the chest or worse hit a bystander.

I’m still interested to know if the police really do have a policy of shoot to kill at all times as indicated above (centre of seen mass etc).

I thought that had been revised, so that when dealing with unarmed raving loonies they could shoot them in the arms or legs to stop them without killing them?

Mr Evil? MR Evil?? HAHAHAHA

Perhaps comments should be divided into two sections now – for people who can and can’t read.
I guess the words Doctor and Mr are practically identical.

Now who is stoo-pud?

Here’s your sign……

Deadmandrinking6:00 pm 14 Nov 07

Geez Mr. Evil? Too hard to read? I had not trouble. It might have been an intellegent post. On Riot-Act? No way!
Perhaps comments should be divided into two sections now, the Mr Evil section, with only one syllable-words used, and the person-with brain section. I’m going to kick off this trend….

******************Mr Evil Bit*********************

You are stoo-pud

****************No read more Mr Evil**************

Anyway, that Uber guy has a point. There’s no need to get all gungho about this. It’s a tragedy, like most crimes tend to be.
I’ve no qualms about the actions of the police in this case. The young man breached the last line of defense before lethal force and it’s only a miracle he didn’t get killed.
What I’d like to know is, what drove this man to do it? Did he have a history of mental illness? Or was this a case of too much stress? Even if we never find out, I hope the answers are found in the courts…
Of course, then you’ll all think he’s ‘getting off lightly’, won’t you?

Unicornbarbieprincess12:01 pm 14 Nov 07

I seriously doubt that the police officer who shot the guy was in the kind of jocular high-fiving and arse-slapping kind of mood that is evident here.

If he was he would be psychologically unfit for duty.

I think it actually means Big Head…..

That’s not sadism, that’s right wing. The big difference being the taking pleasure bit. A lot of Rioters think that people should be responsible for their own actions – like running in front of policemen with knives has ramifications.

I’ll add, as perhaps one of the few Rioters who has actually fired a pistol, I would presume that the officer was aiming at centre of mass. A bullet fired from a handgun does not travel in as straight a line as CSI might have you believe. It’s all to do with rifling and the length of the barrel, and of course the subsonic nature of the 9mm round.

Wow, was that as hard to write as it was to read?

As long as YOU were impressed by your high-horse ramblings, I guess that’s the main thing….

To all of the hard-line, redneck and retributive Sadists on this forum (and I’m actually amazed that Canberra, of all places, has so many): what disturbs and actually disgusts me more than anything else about your gun-hoe ramblings is the fact that you seem almost to be taking pleasure in the fact that this guy was shot. Many of you have gone as far to suggest that insofar is this guy is “a waste of society’s space”, it is a ‘just and deserving’ thing that he was shot. Perhaps you should, in order to remain consistent, advocate a policy of rounding up all of Canberra’s ‘loonies’ and anyone that might at some stage in their lives become violent, in order to send them off to the firing squad? Perhaps then these people wouldn’t take up any more of ‘our’ precious space?

Quite simply, in your hast to comprehend this situation through a highly juvenile and retributive set of eyes, you seem to have completely overlooked the TRAGEDY of the situation. Of course, police are often involved in situations that are extremely tense, difficult and dangerous, and it is more than likely that this police officer did all that he could have done in this particular situation. But to celebrate the fact that the knife-wielding man was shot with pathetic ‘Wild-West’ style cries of “well done mate!” is just absurd, and is likely only to lead to further stereotyping of the police as trigger-happy, macho thugs who thrive on the thrill of violence (and are therefore no better than the violent criminals). Just like the two World Wars, where there were obvious antagonists and defenders, this shooting is nothing to get excited about: the death or serious injury of any person or group is tragic, and there are certainly no winners (but usually always loosers). If we as so-called civilised people are going to remain at all sensitive to violence, suffering and cruelty, then the hard-line Sadists amongst us better start growing up fast.

Ingeegoodbee10:59 am 13 Nov 07

Like I said – the usual string of wet farts lining up to posture on what hard-arses they are. Get a life you fools

I suspect some of you base your comments on what you have seen in movies. I feel for the copper who was placed in such a position as to have to use his firearm to save his own life. For those of you who have never faced an angry man or had to put yourself on the line wont understand this. But for those who have know and understand you know what I am saying. You make ill thought out comments like “centre of seen mass” etc. Just for one second put yourself in that officers postion of having a knife wielding sicko bearing down on you yelling threats to kill you. Its easy to criticise things you dont understand. Its easy to knock those who do put themselves on the line whilst you sit in your safe little world. Put yourself in the same situation for just a second and truthfully answer this…..would you have done whatever possible to save your own life. So how about thinking before just making comment for the sake of comment.

The article states that the offender was two metres away stating “I’m going to kill you.”

Anyone doing that with Police aiming pistols at them are some kind of psychopath and society is better off without them. Yes he was someone’s child but so was Ivan Milat and Adolf Hitler, doesn’t make them any more deserving of sympathy.

I feel sorry for the Police officer who had to make that awful decision as he may be stood down from the job (taking a good officer off the streets) whilst some committee speculates for hours on a decision he had a split second to make.

greatbigfeet10:08 pm 12 Nov 07

Dont worry…he wasn’t actually shot…he was only allegedly shot… http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/12/2088709.htm

But aside from that…WIN news had a quote from one of the coppers that said police were aiming for the centre of his body…not his leg..

I repeat what I said earlier…Well Done Fellows…any shift that you get home alive from is a good shift…You have done your duty well.

One shot from two metres is really waiting until the last minute. One shot won’t stop a determined attacker from slicing you from arsehole to breakfast time. They nick a femoral artery and you get a whopping 30 seconds until you bleed out.


Here is the latest news story. From reading this I’d say the Cops waited to the absolute last minute to shoot. 10 meters is more than close enough for me if someone has a knife

And so are all the police Pandy, along with every member of the public that this person may have come near if the police didn’t do their job.

Joe Canberran5:52 pm 12 Nov 07

Pandy as are all the other people, including the police, that he threatened.

From my understanding use of a firearm is still only an option of last resort and only when there is a threat of death or serious injury and “centre of seen mass” is still the target of choice.

If this is the case (and anyone who actually knows and isn’t speculating please correct me if I’m wrong) then unless there is some sort of enquiry (like there is after every use of a police firearm) then I’m guessing that someone’s life was at risk. Given that there was a cordon for what? 45Min? then I’d guess that it was a police officer’s life (just a guess but a reasonable one).

Knife welding loony (KWL) is lucky he is alive, the copper probably shot early while rushed (leg shot might indicate shot fired while the firearm was still being raised).

If KWL was a loony I hope he gets help while recovering so he never puts anyone’s else, including his own, at risk.

And I hope the Mr Plod who pulled the trigger is getting support from his work and friends as if almost being stabbed and/or killing someone isn’t stressful enough in these times of mass media/internal scrutiny he’s having a pretty bad time of it.

MRB, please think that the offender was someones child.

Absent Diane5:03 pm 12 Nov 07

i should be made to sh*t myself at that lovely spelling of embarrassment

Absent Diane5:00 pm 12 Nov 07

A sub cannon would do the trick… preferably something that could get as low as the ‘brown’ note. Not only will they be subdued but they will also suffer the embarrasment of having shat themselves.

Maybe in future they should whip out the book of Vogon poetry….

The Police should use other means of non-lethal disarming techniques, like playing a Celine Dion cd near the offender; or is that just too cruel and unnatural to even consider?

I think ingee must have been given a ticket at some stage. He’s a little cranky. Next time you’re in the poo, do call the Police. They’ll help you out anyway because that’s what they do.

phasered – gold – beam them up to the watch house.

Stupid people should be made to wear a sign that just says “I am stupid”.

Ingee – here’s your sign…..

I say “well done lads”. Going to run at cops with a knife? Expect to be shot…& rightly so.

barking toad12:20 pm 12 Nov 07

The sad thing about this, apart from the fact that the hit in the leg wasn’t fatal, is that the filthy waste of space will be out on a bond in the blink of an eye to perform the meth driven insanity again.

Growling Ferret11:34 am 12 Nov 07

Lets check this story.

A knife wielding nutjob has the cops called out to him. After resisting multiple requests to drop the weapons over a period of time, does not submit after getting capsicum sprayed (a non-lethal technique), and gets shot in the leg after a lengthy seige, finally dropping the weapons – and its the coppers fault?

Some of you clowns are kidding yourselves. It wasn’t a London Police/unarmed Brazilian situation. It was a situation putting AFP officers and the general community in significant

I reckon the bloke is lucky he wasn’t in Victoria.

Shooting 2 people in the last 10 years aint really that bad.

barking toad8:52 am 12 Nov 07

A hit in the leg is as good (bad) as a miss

Police generally don’t want to shoot anyone because they get commentary like this and then they have horrendous amounts of paperwork and then, often, some sort of inquiry. Shooting at anything in a populated area is a risky activity and I’m pleased the alleged nutter stopped the bullet.

Anyone who has seen somebody who is really on a bender being tazered, knows that it doesn’t stop them cold, if at all.

Sometimes I wonder why so many police are prepared to put themselves in harm’s way. It can’t be the pay, the glory or the gratitude.

I think shooting in the leg is the right response in this sort of situation.

I think the police have moved on from shoot to kill in all cases, since those few killings in victoria a few years ago of unarmed nutters.

The CT article states that the tazer crew was elsewhere at the time. And they followed him around for a while, they didn’t just march up and shoot.

barking toad8:27 am 12 Nov 07

Should be demoted until he can shoot properly

Christ, there are some really bizarre comments on here. Pandy obviously has never set foot outside in the real world – and ingeeWTF is obviously the sort of person who has no grip of reality.
I can only hope that they are in the minority of the “the cops did bad…” as opposed to “a person brandishing knifes ran at a police officer, who was left with no other option”.
As betty said….”merely weilding a knife”. Are you for real pandy? Ever been stabbed you
f%$#&$g moron?
How about next time the cops don’t attend these types of jobs, and the gentlemen in question goes about his business threatening the lives of the public. I’d hate to think that your sensibilities are offended…

Did the guy actaully run-up to the police threatenin to dice-and-slice? Or where the coppers too lazy to think of some other way to subdue the bloke:Like using phazers.

‘Merely wielding a knife’.

WTF? If I wandered over to you ‘merely wielding’ a knife in each hand, you would…hug me…kiss me…make me feel like a princess…?

Vandam, help. Explain how f#$@ed up this is



Do the Liberals 9Troy? Jonathon?) believe that non- lethal force should be used to subdue a crazed nutter who merely is wielding a knife (not actailly attacking anyone)?

Betty I totally agree with your comments. Ingee, what is your issue with the Police? If you work, I’m sure your company has imperfections. It just isn’t publicised like Police.

The Police do a hard job, every one hates them and the media slams them.

When will all those people that nothing better to do than complain realise that if the cops went on strike, this whole city would turn to s**t.

Just because they don’t wear the yellow suit, save people from burning buildings, or transport sick old people to hospital, doesn’t mean they should be treated like fools.

It’s people like you that no matter what Police do, no matter how good a job they do, or how much they go out of their way for you, it’s not good enough.

Maybe you should go back to school and write on the blackboard 1000 times:

‘treat people how you would want to be treated’

Ingee – First up, learn to spell.

Second, get a life you wanker. I guarantee that if one of your nearest and dearest was stabbed by a knife wielding fool, you would be the first to say “Why didn’t the cops just shoot him…!!!”

Go back to your desk job and leave the hard work to the people who wake up each day not knowing how it is going to end.

Please promise me that if you are ever in need of police assistance, you won’t call them. You don’t deserve it.

Build a bridge.

I thought all cops had tazers now…if they can use them against drunk punters at the races, then what’s the point if they’re not used against knife-wielding maniacs?

Ingeegoodbee9:30 pm 11 Nov 07

I guess our slack jawed plods should have the option of shooting troublesome people – it saves the hassel of bringing them back to the watch house and giving them a squirt of capsicum spray.

I love the way that every perp is now some extreme never before in the history of policing example of how it should juyst be more conevenient to shoot the guy because were too dumb, fat, stupid, retarded, under-trained, inexperienced, useless (choose one – that dosnt apply) to slap a good case together that will get through the courts.

Simply another case of police incompetence and just a string of spastic apologists trying desperately to look tough on crime but having nothing to add but the usual wet fart.

A scary message, indeed … if you’re the sort of douchebag who tends to attack cops.

The man was shot after capsicum spray failed to subdue him.

Sounds like a procedure was followed, no gun toting panic to be seen.

What was that Butthole Surfers song?
“Paulie caught a bullet but it only hit his leg
While it should have been a better shot got him in the head “

Just another option to confuse them as to what to grab for first causing them to second guess themselves in these situations. Everytime something happens these days they have a big enquiry into them just doing their jobs.

I have no problem whatsoever with the police shooting people in these situations, the life of that one offender is most likely worth less than the numerous others they may hurt while in possession of these weapons.. but then people are up in arms about tasers killing people too, I’m sure a bullet is more likely to kill someone than the taser.. these idiots run the risk either way when doing these things. It’s time for the whingers of the world to shut the hell up.

Makes people think the Police should all start carrying tasers huh.

Just another option before you get a bullet.

greatbigfeet6:59 pm 11 Nov 07

I think the title of this post should be changed to “Police Minister supports Police whose lives were in danger from a knife wielding drug fiend- Well done fellows.”

What is the scary message???? Dont run at Police with a knife.

I dont think he was trying shoot him in the leg and I know Police are trained to shoot at the centre of mass. I couldnt imagine how much pressure is in this sort of situation. Its probably nothing like being a range shooting at a cardboard cut out.

What happened to centre of seen mass? Shooting in the leg gets police killed when they then have to try and subdue someone still weilding a knife and now really pissed off and willing to use it.

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