Renting in Canberra - nothing but trouble?

Grail, you sound like a brilliant landlord. Without going in to detail on a lot of what you said, I did want to respond to part of it…

I know there are agents treating good people like crap and I’m sorry that happens, but before you decide whether your agent is one of them, consider this:

About 95% of tenants think they are a better tenant than the ‘average tenant’ – this is statistically impossible and unfortunately leads people to think they are being mistreated when in fact they are reaping what they have sown. By and large it is the general attitude, cooperativeness and level of expectation that leaves a lasting impression on your property manager.

Many tenants manage to overlook that they are guilty of the same things that you accuse us of failing on – returning phone calls, keeping appointments and promises, general politeness, a willingness to cooperate and so on. It seems (at times) that you hold the property manager to a higher standard than you hold yourself to.

Paying the rent on time and caring for the property as if it were your own are a great start. Want to know how to be a great tenant though? Be a great person. Property managers have to deal with a lot of BS (bad landlords, bad tenants, bad contractors… I could go on for ages) so any time we can deal with someone that is pleasant and makes our day easier just through their attitude is an absolute blessing.

No doubt there are many agents that are so jaded and crusty that it won’t matter what you do, but assuming that your agent is as incompetant, lazy and rude as your previous encounters is as unfair as them treating you like a second class citizen just because you are a tenant.

“but show me an industry where there aren’t good and bad operators”… Suicide Bombers

#64: As was explained by Grail @#65, the reason you are expected to leave the bins empty and clean is the same as the reason why you are expected to leave the house in the same manner. Like most things requested at Final Inspection, there is a standard set to make sure everyone gets the same thing when they move in.

If you got to your new place and the former tenants left the bins full then you’d have nowhere for the packing materials that you’ve just unpacked. You got empty bins when you moved in, give the same back. Even though you HAVE TO do it, it really is a matter of courtesy.

I use a property manager to manage my property since I had been renting to friends. Having a greater-than-arm’s-length relationship on the property side meant that when stuff broke (eg: hot water service going pop) my friend could deal with the property manager, who was paid to deal with this type of situation.

I just pay 8%, and don’t lose time from my WoW raids 😉

On the flip side, some property managers treat tenants as children, mostly because so many tenants act like children. It seems that renting a property suddenly means you don’t have to care for it, and you can just abuse the landlord/manager every time the curtains break (because you used the curtains as a dog toy), the dishwasher breaks (because you didn’t scrape the leftovers off your plate before putting them in the dishwasher), or the floor floods (because you put a full dose of top loader detergent into your own front loading washing machine).

The worst people to rent to are the dual-income no-kids 20-30yo white couples, they seem to be the most “entitled” of the lot. They’ll spout about their rights at the drop of a hat, but perish the thought of reminding them of their obligations and responsibilities!

As for #64 — requiring bins to be emptied and cleaned — the moving-out rubbish is really the realm of skip hire or equivalent. Council bins are only intended for regular domestic rubbish. Leaving the household bins empty and clean is simply a health issue: you’d be a little upset if an agent wanted you to move into a place where the bins were full of rotting food and cockroaches, wouldn’t you? It can take more than a week to move new tenants in, which is time that you (whether you are the owner or the new tenant) don’t want the bins having rubbish in them.

I’ve moved house about every four years on average. I have no problems leaving the bins empty, even if I need to ask neighbours to put my rubbish in their bins for the week until the next council collection. In two cases I’ve taken my rubbish with me to my new place. There’s nothing that makes me feel like I’ve actually finished moving in to a new place quite like the first bin day.

TL;DR: what gives the property manager the right to demand empty bins? The same thing that gives you as a prospective tenant the right to expect a habitable property.

“All garbage bins emptied and washed clean”

I do not understand this request some agents list for the final inspection.
When a tenant moves out this is just the time when they most need the use of their rubbish bins, which is included in the rent they pay.
Another point I would like to make is that these bins belong to the council and not the property, so what gives property managers the right to demand empty bins?

Jurls: I’ve got to agree on that. The last time I was looking for a rental property, I stopped even considering any that were rented by LJ Hooker, because the personal details they were asking for just went beyond the pale.

When you ask for the make, model, color and rego of my car, you’ve crossed the creepiness line, and I’m not going to deal with you.

niknak said :

I would rather chew off my own arm that entrust a property manager with care and control of my investment property. I’ve used three different managers from three different agencies in the past, and all came up short. Somehow, in this very tight market, each manager managed to find questionable tennants for the property.

– Tenant 1 brought along a kelpie, which chewed the window coverings, ripped up the small courtyard garden and irritated the neighbours by barking incessantly. Although I had specified no dogs,the PM expected me to “show sympathy” for the tenant and the mangy mutt.

– Tenant 2 (supplied by PM2)lied about employment status and didn’t pay the rent for 6 weeks before the PM stepped in. And that was only because I insisted. Apparently it’s considered fair and reasonable to allow 8 weeks to lapse before chasing missed rent. Um, no. It’s not.

– Tenant 3 (supplied by PM3) turned out to be a student group of anywhere between 4 and 8 people (again, I’d specified no groups) who set up rice and noodle cooking facilities in both bedrooms. The person who signed the lease didn’t actually live there. Thank heavens it was only a 6 month lease.

I now manage both our investment properties myself. I choose my tenants and vet them to my satisfaction. I’ve had absolutely no problems at all. I’m a happy landlord, my tenants are happy in their homes. I charge below market rates to keep good tenants in place. I would never use a property manager again. I put property managers on a par with parking inspectors and used car salesmen.

Looks like the agents ballsed up and picked three bad tenants in a row, which I guess is much the same as you picking three shit agents in a row. If only those crystal balls worked you could’ve avoided all of this.

Why were the agents choosing your tenants anyway? Shouldn’t you have the final decision?

I would rather chew off my own arm that entrust a property manager with care and control of my investment property. I’ve used three different managers from three different agencies in the past, and all came up short. Somehow, in this very tight market, each manager managed to find questionable tennants for the property.

– Tenant 1 brought along a kelpie, which chewed the window coverings, ripped up the small courtyard garden and irritated the neighbours by barking incessantly. Although I had specified no dogs,the PM expected me to “show sympathy” for the tenant and the mangy mutt.

– Tenant 2 (supplied by PM2)lied about employment status and didn’t pay the rent for 6 weeks before the PM stepped in. And that was only because I insisted. Apparently it’s considered fair and reasonable to allow 8 weeks to lapse before chasing missed rent. Um, no. It’s not.

– Tenant 3 (supplied by PM3) turned out to be a student group of anywhere between 4 and 8 people (again, I’d specified no groups) who set up rice and noodle cooking facilities in both bedrooms. The person who signed the lease didn’t actually live there. Thank heavens it was only a 6 month lease.

I now manage both our investment properties myself. I choose my tenants and vet them to my satisfaction. I’ve had absolutely no problems at all. I’m a happy landlord, my tenants are happy in their homes. I charge below market rates to keep good tenants in place. I would never use a property manager again. I put property managers on a par with parking inspectors and used car salesmen.

The thing that pissed me off most of all when looking for a place to rent back in March, was the amount of information that was demanded of me with my application form. Copies of drivers licence, passport, birth certificate, payslips blah blah blah and also requests from some for copies of our bank statements.!! Now, I can understand that landlords want to verify their tenants identity. However, distributing copies of all my ID around Canberra for various agents to lose, leave laying around etc (yes I know there are strict regulations about how people’s information is handled) doesn’t sit well with me. Giving people my bank statements is a definite no no. I’ve never ever been asked for that before.

Perhaps I’d feel better about it if I had to provide this information after successfully becoming a tenant. But no, this information is all required on application, for each and every property. Which results in lots of copies of my ID floating around the place and 90% of the time we didn’t get the property anyway.

Needless to say, we ended up renting privately and are a lot happier for doing so! 😀

Mulberry said :

We put up with abuse from tenants, perspective tenants, landlords and everyone else in the community and get paid bugger all. Hence the large turnover off PM’s

quote]

So it makes sense that when you get a tenant who is reasonable, flexible, understanding and cares for a property better than their own (i.e.: making a PM’s worklife easier) that a PM would treat them like gold, don’t you think? I have done just that and have continued to be treated like I am a scumbag … so other than my own self-respect, where is the incentive to be a model tenant?!

I think alot of people are unaware that because the people who pay us are infact the landlords, we are obliged to conceed with their wishes of who they choose to let their properties, how much they choose to increase rent, and we STRUGGLE to tell some that they need to maintain their properties.

Property Managers also have a very thin legal line to walk on, and have to watch every word and every move thats made.

We put up with abuse from tenants, perspective tenants, landlords and everyone else in the community and get paid bugger all. Hence the large turnover off PM’s

I have been renting houses for 6 years and thought I knew it all as a tenant,
I have been a PM for 3 or so. and now know both sides.

I wont say a lot of tenants arent treated unfairly… I often wish that I could cross the line and use my empathy and be “un-professional” but i have bills to pay too, and need my job and I also need my house and choose to be a good tenant, pay my rent, put as much effort in for inspections as I can, and maintain the property as if it were my own!

My 2 cents 🙂

davecdp said :

We have decided to sell a rental property and the tenants lease runs out in February. How much notice am i required to give them? How much notice would you (or the rest of you) recommend i give them? i know availability is at its worst just before and just after Christmas and they have been great tenants so i’m happy to make this as easy for them as i can.

You dont have to kick them out… you can give them as much notice as you want that you intend to sell so that they can make a decision as to whether they want to move or not.
.
For all you know the buyer could also be after an investment.

You dont legally have to give notice until the house is sold, and then it is upto the agent after knowing the wishes of the new vendors.

But if you respect them as tenants let them know of your intentions but also let them know that they can take their risks to stay on incase the new owners choose to let the property

Property Manager, I’d suggest you not try to answer every single comment that is made on this forum .. you’ll go nutty. Instead, perhaps just take it all on the chin and take what you need from the useful comments.

Having been on both sides of the fence, I’d suggest a landlord friendly information service, which also provides property management as a feature would be a great service in the ACT. There are plenty of cashed up public servants in Canberra looking to make money in the investment property portfolio who are not interested in being ‘hands-on’ landlords.

Having been overseas when my rented property was subject to an external water leak causing all sorts of problems, I found the tenant moved out and the property manager went AWOL pretty quickly. Isn’t this the time when you expect the property manager to come to the fore rather than backing away. Being on the other side of the world only enhanced the difficulties with dealing with the body corporate (they were responsible for fixing the leak). It took many months and an intervention from my lawyer to get them to finally cooperate and fix it. Having a property manager who had deal with these problems rather than just sitting back & watching the $$ roll in with minimal input would be good. Having said that, we currently have our property managed by a local agency who appear to be doing a good job, and a great tenant who is doing all the right things.

Anyway, the other thing is having a source of local investment info. Knowing where/what is the best place to buy/rent/sell etc – future investment options etc. I’d appreciate a property manager/advisor who was able to answer questions without them having a vested interest in a particular property … it that too much to ask for? I know that I can find all this information for researching the market, asking accountants, financial advisors, property investment groups/mags/online etc.. and I do all that but its time consuming and having a one-stop shop from someone in the real estate industry with some ethics would be great :o)

returning now to la la land …

#46: Aurelius, for me to repeat the chant of “we’re underpaid, undertrained and overworked” is as tired as the “every property manager is a lazy/rude/obnoxious/incompetent b–tard” that is peppering the comments here. Both comments may have some accuracy, but repeating them ad-nauseum is not helping anyone.

I know there are agents out there who do all these bad things. I can’t correct their mistakes, only my own. Responding to a rant criticizing a property manager’s workload is futile – Woody has a strong opinion and nothing I can say is going to change it, besides which I have nothing to defend – I do plenty of work; let the lazy ones defend themselves. While I strongly disagree with Woody’s opinion of what a property manager ‘actually’ does, I am happy for them to hold this opinion and go about their life.

I’m not here to convert non-believers. I’m not here to preach. I’m not here to defend an industry. I was just offering to answer any technical questions. The rest is someone else’s issue (and I’ve mistakenly found myself responding to it – what can I say, I’m passionate and believe I am doing good work, sometimes I forget that the barbs are not directed at me but at my ‘peers’ that are making the entire industry look bad).

#52: I don’t really know what to say – I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

prhhcd said :

Here is some free advice, and no, unlike our Newbie “Property Manager” I will not be making money out of this sometime in the near future.

Select your tenants well, treat your tenants well and have open channels of communication with them and voila – you have yourself a happy relationship.

I look after a few properties for family members and have never had problems just by following that one little rule.
I think we just tend to forget that we need to treat tenants like people too, not like some sort of underclass!

[end rant]

I would absolutely agree with this. My last PM was an exception to the rule – she actually responded to calls and emails regarding issues with the property (even if the landlord refused to fix things). Her replies were respectful, considerate and straightforward. She spoke to me like a human, as though we both had equal parts to play in caring for the landlord’s property (unlike most that I’ve found that use a tone that implies they’re treating you with contempt and suspicion until you prove yourself to be considered otherwise … & even then … ). She made it clear she understood my time was valuable, and that while it was the property of the landlord, it was my home. The result – I went out of my way to help, to be understanding, to care for the property – so VOILA! she’s ensuring a quality service to the landlord who employed her and can say she earns her dollars. On top of that – she has a pleasurable working relationship every time we need to deal with one another.

The thing that probably offends me most, and answers the OP’s question on ‘what issues do you have’ is the attitude property managers give renters. I can only assume that its somehow stemming from the thought ‘you’re not successful enough to own your own home, and have to rent other people’s houses, therefore you’re sitting somewhere near the bottom of a social class pile, and deserve to be spoken to like a naughty 5 year old’. How do they know renting is not a conscious choice? How do they know you don’t own 16 properties of your own elsewhere? Or choose to invest your money in your business/superannuation/etc. Do they think you don’t know other property owners who may be seeking recommendations from you on professional and considerate property managers? It really seems to me to be an offensive attitude they take with renters based in assumptions, ignorance and prejudice. I understand that PMs are paid piddling salaries by our esteemed RE agencies, and often have 100s of properties to care for, but if they could perhaps treat people with genuine respect, perhaps they’d lessen their own headaches, as tenants might be more willing to go the extra mile to care for owners’ properties.

Or maybe I’m living in la-la-land. Here endeth the lecture.

#45: Caf, this is all fantastic advice, thank you. I like to hope that I am already doing most of this, but I will still take things from your comment that will help me to improve further. I attempt to be what you have described, but at times I am sure I fail.

Thank you for this brilliant description of how a property manager should act – I hope that this provides some insight to all agents as to how they might improve their businesses.

As el said a little earlier – not only are tenants ‘people too’ but they are future homeowners, future investment owners, and in reality they are your ‘clients’ too. If you are so jaded that you treat them all like dirt ‘on principle’, then get out of my industry – you’re making people hate me ‘on principle’.

#41: Exactly why I don’t act that way. There are places I will never return myself (across many industries) because of the way I have been treated in the past. You are right – anyone that acts in this way are scum.

#37: I’m not going to continue defending myself against accusations of astroturfing. Being anonymous I am not sure how I would be making money from this. What I am getting from this is the abuse and criticism of people like you. If that sounds like I am profiting then I think we are viewing the situation from different angles.

#35 & #36: I am sorry if you have encountered racism from our industry – it’s reprehensible and I hope that it doesn’t continue. I am also sorry that I can’t find any way to address that in this forum.

It feels like a really empty response, but I don’t know what else to say – but it is a comment that I didn’t wish to ignore. It honestly saddens that it happens.

#34: No, I don’t spend all week looking after just one house. The point is that I am focussed on the management of properties all day every day. A private landlord has their day job to contend with, meaning the management of their rental will often come a long way down the list after their job, their own home, their families and whatever else they’ve got going on. I know my personal time is jam packed, so adding the needs of a rental property into an already crowded schedule would see it prioritised much lower than it would be by an agent managing it 5 days a week.

While Property Manager criticises Woody @ 16 for his comments, I note they didn’t disprove anything Woody said. I do think, PM, if you’re going to come to a public forum talking about a controversial topic, you should wear a thicker skin.

Speaking for myself, I have had the worst experience I, or anyone I speak to, has had with a landlord recently. In that case, (trespassing & stealing is where it started, no idea where it will end, as the legal stoushes are ongoing) the landlord was so appalling it would have been an assistance to us, as tenants, and to the landlord if there HAD been a professional property manager involved. At least they would have had some idea of how to handle the situation without ending up in the courts, where it is now.

Property Manager,

Speaking as a previous tenant (now thankfully a homeowner, and out of that market): the key thing you can do if you want to be “part of the solution” is to treat tenants with respect. It really is an attitudinal thing more than anything else. I understand that part of your job is dealing with genuinely bad tenants, but please, make a real effort to not to treat everyone like a potential “bad tenant”.

My suggestion: print out a large sign saying “Always Assume Good Will” and put it above your desk. When you operate under the implict assumption that every tenant is a potential lease-breaking, non-paying, property damaging yahoo, it’s transparently obvious to the tenants you deal with; it leaves an awful taste and it sets up a confrontational atmosphere. On the other hand, if you’ve treated your tenants well, then they’ll be more likely to assume good will on your part too when you make a mistake.

Minimise the condescension, the officiousness & the combativeness and encourage a co-operative atmosphere (for example: if you need to tell the tenants not to park on the nature strip, first pick up the phone and remind them it’s not allowed – don’t just fire off a formal breach notice!)

The second thing I have to suggest, albeit far less important than assuming good will, is to remember to “manage upwards” your property owner. Some owners are incredibly lax about responding to maintenance requests, and as you’re the only channel between the tenants and the owners, you really do need to keep on top of the owners to give timely responses. (As a property owner, I’d also like to point out that this applies to requests from the owners of neighbouring properties too).

#33: In my experience the property manager will provide a market summary to the owner and possibly a suggestion of a rent increase if applicable. The final decision is with the owner. This may depend on the managing agency agreement between the landlord and the agent – perhaps some agents have standing authority to increase rents. Not what I’ve seen, but I’m sure it happens.

Stamp Duty is tax deductable in the ACT and it’s bloody hard to rent a good property.
Seems a good place to invest in my opinion. Keep it quiet b4 we all end up paying Sydney prices

#32: There are douches out there on all sides. Just like any agent who instigates a rental auction.

(on landlords)

Property Manager said :

If left to their own devices many would do no maintenance, try to increase rent every second week, and drop around for a surprise inspection whenever they felt like it.

These are all things that property ‘managers’ appear to be very, very good at.

What these scum need to realise, is that the tenant you’re intimidating and harassing today can and often will be the prospective home-buyer/investment property owner in need of a real estate agent’s services next month, in six months or several years down the track.

Dunno about anyone else, but I have a *long* memory when it comes to that kind of shit (Hello PRD Nationwide, Kingston.)

#31: The short answer is this – the owner (or agent or whatever) can advertise at an increased rent if the market suggests it is suitable; but they also have a ‘Duty to Mitigate’ any loss (compensation) you may have to pay – Section 38 of Residential Tenancies Act.

This means that if they leave the property advertised at an inflated rent and have not been getting any positive response from the market then they may be failing in their duty to mitigate. If the tribunal rules that this is the case they may in fact have to pay compensation to you.

Hope this helps.

#30: FD10, that truly sucks. I can’t defend the actions of agents who would treat you like that, there’s absolutely no reason to be so unprofessional. What I can offer is this:

Historically many houses have been damaged, and rents unpaid, by tenants in a similar demographic to yourself. It’s not fair that the rotten apples would ruin the bushell, but it happens.

The best advice I can offer is much what I tell most applicants – a landlord wants to know two main things when seeking tenants: will they pay the rent, and will they look after the property. Without a prior rental history it is hard to provide evidence that you have done so, and often students have lower incomes making it difficult to prove the financial stability.

Whenever you lodge an application make sure you add to it with good clear copies of photo ID, written references, letters confirming financial support from family etc. If all else fails, get a family member to apply as a co-tenant, giving the owner the security of knowing they can chase them in the case of any issues.

It’s not particularly fair, but as has been suggested by others there are a lot of problems with our current rental market, and when given the choice many landlords will make a decision that doesn’t favour you – give them a reason to think twice.

#27: On the contrary Jethro, while I won’t respond to the comments surrounding Ponzi Scheme as I can’t see how property investment is remotely like a pyramid scam, I’ll happily respond to your claim that Property Managers have contributed to the increasing pressure on renters through upward trends in market rent by saying this – you are right.

Property Managers are legally bound under the Agents Act to work in the best interest of their client, and part of this would naturally be to achieve the best possible rent return. While I understand that the value of rent as a proportion of income is becoming more and more difficult to manage I don’t think it is reasonable to lay the blame for this at the feet of the agent. By definition, an “agent” is simply working on behalf of their client.

I would suggest that the two main causes of this dilemma would be supply and demand across the entire housing market, which is largely caused by the local government’s land release policies; and the landlords’ inherent interest in achieving a decent return on the investment – which has cost them a small fortune in the first place, not to mention ever-increasing costs through general rates and land tax (again at the hands of the local government), as well as other statutory charges.

In response to your question of a property manager’s income to social value – without property managers you would have only private landlords, some better than others. Some are actually the nicest people you’ll meet. Let me tell you though, there are a lot of landlords who are actually kept in check by their property manager. If left to their own devices many would do no maintenance, try to increase rent every second week, and drop around for a surprise inspection whenever they felt like it.

Before you crucify me for shifting the blame, consider this: I do completely understand your point as I am a renter myself. Given my family’s personal financial position I am in a constant state of ‘panic’ (for want of a better word) that the rent is going to be increased (it’s been more than a year, so it could happen at any time) creating chaos on our already tight budget. I understand this financial predicament as well as any renter and it makes me sad, angry, frustrated and depressed all at once – I can’t see any realistic way that I can make the jump from renter to home owner with the way rents are. But I can’t see how blame for this massive social issue can be laid at the feet of property managers. Please see my response to post #33 as well for an explanation on how rent increases are calculated as it further illustrates that it isn’t the agent’s fault (in most cases).

Here is some free advice, and no, unlike our Newbie “Property Manager” I will not be making money out of this sometime in the near future.

Select your tenants well, treat your tenants well and have open channels of communication with them and voila – you have yourself a happy relationship.

I look after a few properties for family members and have never had problems just by following that one little rule.
I think we just tend to forget that we need to treat tenants like people too, not like some sort of underclass!

[end rant]

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

why would you question that cost to have someone spend their entire working week looking after your rental investment?

The entire week? Looking after my investment? You make it sound like you sit there watching the house on a hidden camera, fretting all the while. Well pull the other one, it plays Holiday in Cambodia.

1. Start of tenancy. Put ad in allhomes. Watch tens of applications roll in instantly. Pretend to undertake some sort of objective assessment of which is ‘best’ (ie, discard brown people, pick the white couple with the highest two incomes and no kids.)

LOL. good one mate.

Woody Mann-Caruso

Being a brown man, agree with You mate.
Well said.
😀

Question ?

Who sets the rent ? The landlord or the property manager !?

I’m only asking as recently someone advised me their rent increased by $30 p/w, turned out they were living in a mates investment property and they had no idea about the increase. They had set the rent 2 years ago, never increased it, but the tenants were paying alot more

Property Manager

You are right. I doubt however that there are that many people who would dig their heels in just to be a douche. More likely that given the tight rental market, it can take months to find a suitable home. Factoring in distance to travel to work, school & daycare etc.
I know that when I was looking for a rental an unnamed real estate took bids, but didn’t advertise the fact. So it was down to people just being desperate enough to start a bidding war on already overpriced houses.
My current rental is adequate, but I had to recently serve a notice to remedy repairs on the owner after he dodged the property manager for 5 months on a list of problems caused by the previous tenants.

I’d be interested in Property Manager’s thoughts on the following scenario.

I’m breaking my 12-months lease after 4 months. (Not an ideal situation, but can’t be helped.) I’m being held rent responsible until a new tenant is found, and I have no problem with this.

Up until May this year my rent was $390pw. When I signed the new lease it then went up to $400pw. The property is now being advertised at $415pw. That’s a $25 increase in less than 6 months and I’m concerned this higher rent rate is scaring prospective tenants away.

Does the tenant have any say in this situation? Or is potentially being held rent responsible for longer than if the property was advertised at the current rent rate just part and parcel of being a lease breaker?

What issues are you facing with your Canberra rental property?

Actually getting a property. As student first-time male renters, it seems the entire rental world is against us. I have had property managers tell me that “I don’t rent to people like you”, implying that myself and my friends would be a worst case scenario which I highly doubt would be true. Frankly, I find it insulting that they make those assumptions without knowing anything about us.

Also, I’ve had property managers through agencies lie to my face about our application, which makes me wonder if they’re just out to waste our time.

Give us a chance!

Property Manager said :

(…)The last thing I want is to push people away from professional management (I’ll be out of a job),

Oh well, you could always go and sell used cars. Both occupations require a similar skillset: bastardry, dishonesty and a complete lack of ethics.

#23: What you’ve described is the standard practice and in my experience would be supported by the tribunal. Essentially you’ve entered a contract and are seeking to break that contract. In doing so it is expected that you will leave the other party (the landlord) in no worse position than if you had fulfilled your contractual obligations. If applicable you are likely to also be invoiced for any advertising/re-letting fees that the owner has to pay the agent (up to one week’s rent). The Residential Tenancies Act (http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/1997-84/current/pdf/1997-84.pdf) supports such compensation in sections 62 and or 84 (depending on the situation), and this practice simply achieves the same result without forcing a pretty clear-cut case to the tribunal.

#25: Tough question. How do you get them to prove that they return phone calls, action requests, understand the tenancy legislation, can negotiate reasonable outcomes with tenants, be pro-active in caring for your investment and so on? It’s pretty easy to pay all that lip service, but so much harder to prove it. First, don’t be fooled by the one that guarantees a significantly higher rent – “buying” a management listing is illegal, but it still happens. Second, know what your expectations are and figure out some questions to see how they respond. In the end I can only suggest that you go with instinct. We’re all offering basically the same product at much the same price, so choose the agent you get the most workable rapport with.

OP: The problem people have with real-estate agents and property managers (and hence the antagonism being directed towards you) is that they really do seem to be people who offer very little to our world (some might say you have a negative impact on society – having helped turn housing from a necessity of life that most people on a wage could aspire to, to nothing more than a nationwide Ponzi scheme that rips of both investors who are going to be wiped out when the housing bubble bursts and renters who are paying $350 a week for a 2 bedroom townhouse in Gordon or $400 for a 3 beddy in West Macgregor – to choose two examples from the cheapest end of the scale…. unbelievable really when you consider that the minimum wage is only $570). Yet estate agents are making an absolute fortune off of the fact that people need to live somewhere and are not confident that they can handle the arrangements themselves.

Your income to social value ration is unfortunately very lopsided.

I am sure you will reply with some passive-agressive condescending reply, as you have to the other people who have reacted angrily to the reminder that we live in a society that supports a real-estate industry.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

What issues are you facing with your Canberra rental property?

Property managers who demand 7% of a weekly rent that’s more than double what it was ten years ago for doing less work.

you’re lucky to only pay 7%. the standard is 10% or so i was told 5 years ago – i negotiated down to 8% because i was buying at the same time off same real estate agent.

So what about advice on the best way to choose a property manager?

Property Manager said :

If I can achieve this while answering questions and offering assistance that is fairly thin on the ground, is that a bad thing?

Not at all, good on you for giving something back.

Ok. So as a tenant paying an above market rate (ie one bdrm in gunners 400wk). If I want to break lease 6 months early – landlord can charge difference between market rate (350wk) and what I’m paying, against me, for the next 6 months…. Assuming I find alternate tenant. Anyone know if this is legal? (fixed term 12 mth contract because no one in Canberra needs to be flexible?)

#19: As always Hutch, well constructed comments and all valid.

#20: Your information is fairly accurate, but the following should be noted:
– As explained above the owner can serve a termination notice during the fixed term as long as they provide at least 26 weeks notice and the end date is not within a fixed term.
– During a fixed term the owner may apply to the tribunal for a termination and possession order (eviction) on the grounds of significant hardship. They need to prove their hardship would be greater if the tenancy continues than the hardship the tenant would face if it were to end. Pretty rare cases to the best of my knowledge.
– You are correct, the tribunal is the only body with authority to evict a tenant. Digging in your heels and forcing a landlord to the tribunal for an eviction order after they have issued a valid termination notice is not going to help anyone though. Chances are you will end up paying the owner compensation for any loss they have faced through your unwillingness to cooperate with the termination notice, unless you can provide a substantial and valid reason for not cooperating.

When any party digs in their heels and tests the limits of the legislation any chance of a reasonable outcome is all but lost, whether it’s the owner, tenant or agent who digs in, everyone pretty much loses.

#15: Thank you for removing any ambiguity in your early comment.

#16: I understand that is how it may look, but the comments from people who have happily changed from self-management to a professional agent are suggesting the opposite. I am sorry that your opinion on the value of property managers is so diminished, I hope that if you find yourself as a property investor at some point that everything is smooth sailing for your self-management so as to prove your comments. In response to your last question – I am not Erik’s wife, I have not (and have no intention of) disclosed which agency I work for, and just quietly I was quite amused to see Jazz ripped to shreds for ‘turfing.

# 17: Because you’re a cynic like many of us that frequent this site 🙂 Fair question though, I would’ve been wondering the same. I have no intention of declaring which agency I am with, and I guess the primary motivation from a commercial sense is to demonstrate that there are agents with a clue who do their job well. If I can achieve this while answering questions and offering assistance that is fairly thin on the ground, is that a bad thing?

#18: Thanks Hutch. Davecdp could serve a Notice to Vacate on the tenants prior to the end of the lease, as long as he provides not less then 26 weeks notice, and provided the termination date is after the end of the fixed term lease. By this method he stands to have his house back maybe a month earlier. Of course you can market a property for sale with a tenancy in place and let the purchaser decide whether they need the property.

Another note on any notices (including termination notices) – make sure you allow 4 business days for postage, as per the Legislation Act. Without that your notices could possibly be declared void by the Tribunal.

Can the landlord evict me if they want to sell my home?

Fixed Term Agreement

If you are in a fixed term agreement the landlord cannot evict you. Like you, they are committed to the agreement.

davecdp
Once the lease is up, it becomes a periodic lease. You have to give 8 weeks notice, tenants only have to give 3 weeks. Here is the info from tenancy advice.

Periodic Agreement

If your agreement is periodic, the landlord is able to issue a notice to vacate under clause 96(1)(d) giving you 8 weeks notice to move. If you are unable to do so the landlord must seek an order from the tribunal. Only the Tribunal can order an eviction (see Tenancy Tips: Eviction in the ACT).

Without doubt there are a lot of bad property managers (and landlords)… but there are also a fair few bad tenants as well.

As a property manager (in a previous life), I found that most of the time when Tenants were unhappy, it was due to the Landlord being unreasonable… Although they might not have been acting illegally, they certainly didn’t want to act in a manner which most people would consider fair. This generally occurred when the landlord was too busy looking at short-term costs rather than the longer term benefit and won’t budge. On the flipside, when you get a tenant that is unreasonable, that also causes hell.

However, when you mix a good landlord (pro-active and reasonable), with a good tenant (pays rent, keeps the property clean & tidy) = life is good and you love dealing with those people. However sadly, there are a lot of people out there that shouldn’t own rental properties and people who can’t organise their lives in order to maintain a rental property (manage their money to pay rent etc)

In relation to property management, the main problems in the industry are that most agencies pay a pittance (hence miss out on good staff and have high turnover) and most agencies are run by sales agents who know nothing about property management, and if anything treat it with contempt (even though they need it). The other issue is the grey arears in legislation – where things are not properly defined.

Property Manager said :

davecdp said :

We have decided to sell a rental property and the tenants lease runs out in February. How much notice am i required to give them? How much notice would you (or the rest of you) recommend i give them? i know availability is at its worst just before and just after Christmas and they have been great tenants so i’m happy to make this as easy for them as i can.

You need to give them a minimum of 8 weeks written notice AFTER their lease ends, meaning they won’t necessarily be moving until some time in April, by which time the market is typically a little more tenant friendly.

Remember, they can leave at any time after their lease expires by giving you 3 weeks written notice.

I would think that 8 weeks formal notice is usually enough for a good tenant to find a new place, but you could give them the heads up a little in advance – as long as you can deal with them moving out before the 8 weeks is up if they find a great place quickly.

I was of the impression that you can provide notice during a fixed term tenancy as long as it expires after the fixed term tenancy is due to expire.

Property Manager said :

I am simply trying to assist all parties with professional advice.

That’s mighty altruistic of you… something in the back of my mind asks why… I’m not sure what that niggling feeling is though…

why would you question that cost to have someone spend their entire working week looking after your rental investment?

The entire week? Looking after my investment? You make it sound like you sit there watching the house on a hidden camera, fretting all the while. Well pull the other one, it plays Holiday in Cambodia.

1. Start of tenancy. Put ad in allhomes. Watch tens of applications roll in instantly. Pretend to undertake some sort of objective assessment of which is ‘best’ (ie, discard brown people, pick the white couple with the highest two incomes and no kids.)
2. Watch rent flow into bank account. If the little spreadsheet notices a two week gap with no money, print a form letter. F*ck it, automate it with a few lines of VB and get the receptionist to stuff envelopes.
3. Once every six months, walk through house and note that there’s dust on the laundry window sill, the oven could look a bit more like it was just installed and that the grass looks a bit brown. Send a notice first if you remember. Repeat at end of lease.
4. Every eight months or so, try to hit the tenant up for a rent increase. The worst that can happen is they know their rights and say no, so what’s to lose? Just hit them up on the anniversary of the lease with an enormous increase instead, and hope they can’t find the relevant CPI figures.
5. Go to 1. Lookit, I didn’t even have to start counting on my other hand, which is free to count all the money.

None of this has changed since 2001, except it’s easier than ever thanks to allhomes and a vacancy rate tighter than a fish’s bumhole. However, property managers’ fees have doubled in the same period, because they take a percentage. The job isn’t twice as hard. You’re not adding double the value. You’re just taking double off the top, trading on fear, uncertainty and doubt that some tenant will trash the place or skip town without paying rent – which you’re utterly powerless to stop until it’s too late anyway.

And just to make sure we’re all above board here – you’re not Jazz’s missus, are you? Because if there’s one thing Rioters love, it’s astroturfers.

@ #12. I will try again.

My relevant insight is that property managers, in my experience, take up valuable oxygen that other people could breathe.

My constructive comment is that if we deprive them of oxygen there will be more to go around.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Property managers who demand 7% of a weekly rent that’s more than double what it was ten years ago for doing less work.

Which property managers are quoting 7%??? I recently had one quote me 11%!

#9 – Colourful Sydney…:
Your attitude is indicative of the broader problem that I am trying to provide assistance with. I don’t disagree that there are lazy property managers out there who bully and do little to assist – but show me an industry where there aren’t good and bad operators. I’m sure you could offer some thoughtful and relevant insights to the issues faced by tenants that would help everyone understand things better, but instead your comment offers nothing constructive – you really are missing an opportunity to add something of value.

#10 – Enrique:
I agree with all of your comments, but while an internet forum is not substitute for either being properly informed as a self-manager or engaging a professional, I am simply trying to assist all parties with professional advice. The last thing I want is to push people away from professional management (I’ll be out of a job), but trying to minimise the incidence of unnecessary conflict doesn’t seem like a disservice to anyone. Further, I want to demonstrate that there are professionals in the industry who know what they are doing and aren’t afraid to actually do some work.

#11 – Trix:
Probably true, but there’s plenty of reasons why investors choose to self manage – many of these reasons revolve around numerous bad experiences with previous agents. I too believe that owning an investment property is in fact a business; but it’s worth remembering that on the other side it is someone’s home.

Property Manager said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Assuming you already have a full time job, why would you question that cost to have someone spend their entire working week looking after your rental investment?

Now I don’t think you would spend your whole week looking after my property for $150, I am almost sure you would devote some of the week to looking after one or two other peoples properties.

After years of managing our property ourselves we have switched to a manager and it is worth every cent to do away with the hassle of monitoring rent, etc

To be honest, if you are a landlord and you have no clue how much notice you should be giving your tenants, you should probably get out of the game.

Too many people think they can make a quick buck, or it’s an easy form of investment. But you do have to follow the law. Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can be a company director – you have fiduciary obligations, and ignorance is no defence. As far as I’m concerned, owning rental property is no different to running a small company.

LANDLORDS (i.e. davecdp)

If you’re a landlord and you’re coming to a public internet forum/chat room for legal advice then you deserve all the trouble you end up with.

First, read this… http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/1997-84/default.asp

If it’s too much for you to understand then get a property manager.

If your property manager isn’t able to deal with issues/problems for you then why are you paying them? Get a new property manager.

If all else fails, pay a solicitor.

Why mess around when you’re dealing with investments worth hundreds of thousands of dollars?

TENANTS

If you think you’re being “kept in the dark” don’t sit around and do nothing…

First, read this… http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/a/1997-84/default.asp

And the stuff here… http://www.ors.act.gov.au/rentalbonds/WebPages/rentalbonds_publications.html

These people are here to help… http://www.tenantsact.org.au/

ALL

Tenants and Landlords are both parties to a legally binding agreement. Take a bit of time to inform yourselves of the terms & conditions of your agreement and your rights & responsibilities. Read the legislation. If it’s too hard to understand seek professional advice.

In my experience as a tennant property managers do not “spend their entire working week looking after (a) rental investment”.

They do the absolute minimum. They are A grade bullies to tennants and take up valuable oxygen that other people could breathe.

Genie said :

Based on your example of 7% a property that takes in a rent of $2712.60 per month ($500pw)

I think your maths is off.

Wasn’t aware of a month being 5 1/2 weeks.

Sorry, a typo – $2172.62 is the monthly figure.

Based on your example of 7% a property that takes in a rent of $2712.60 per month ($500pw)

I think your maths is off.

Wasn’t aware of a month being 5 1/2 weeks.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

What issues are you facing with your Canberra rental property?

Property managers who demand 7% of a weekly rent that’s more than double what it was ten years ago for doing less work.

I pay 10% and have no problem with it.

Thanks for the advice.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

What issues are you facing with your Canberra rental property?

Property managers who demand 7% of a weekly rent that’s more than double what it was ten years ago for doing less work.

Based on your example of 7% a property that takes in a rent of $2712.60 per month ($500pw) would cost a tick over $150/month in agent fees; a cost which is tax deductible. Assuming you already have a full time job, why would you question that cost to have someone spend their entire working week looking after your rental investment?

If you don’t think that’s value for money you need to find an agent that is actually worth the money they are being paid. I’m not going to target any particular agents, but there are good and bad as in most industries. The bad ones make it harder for the rest of us to impress – and some of us relish that challenge.

davecdp said :

We have decided to sell a rental property and the tenants lease runs out in February. How much notice am i required to give them? How much notice would you (or the rest of you) recommend i give them? i know availability is at its worst just before and just after Christmas and they have been great tenants so i’m happy to make this as easy for them as i can.

You need to give them a minimum of 8 weeks written notice AFTER their lease ends, meaning they won’t necessarily be moving until some time in April, by which time the market is typically a little more tenant friendly.

Remember, they can leave at any time after their lease expires by giving you 3 weeks written notice.

I would think that 8 weeks formal notice is usually enough for a good tenant to find a new place, but you could give them the heads up a little in advance – as long as you can deal with them moving out before the 8 weeks is up if they find a great place quickly.

What issues are you facing with your Canberra rental property?

Property managers who demand 7% of a weekly rent that’s more than double what it was ten years ago for doing less work.

We have decided to sell a rental property and the tenants lease runs out in February. How much notice am i required to give them? How much notice would you (or the rest of you) recommend i give them? i know availability is at its worst just before and just after Christmas and they have been great tenants so i’m happy to make this as easy for them as i can.