11 November 2008

The sex industry comment wars rage on - Tess Ryan has her say

| johnboy
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Front page browsers will be fascinated to learn that the loquacious sex worker Tess Ryan has waded in to the raging inferno that the death of Janine Cameron has kicked off.

So here’s what Tess had to say:

    Given that I spent eight years working in Canberra’s studios and still know many Canberra studio workers, I hope that my experience will lend me some credibility when engaging in this enormous discussion.

    There is really no point in saying that I’m different because I’m independent. I worked in studios for a long time, and I enjoyed it and found it to be empowering, fun, interesting and positive. Some haven’t had that type of experience, and I acknowledge that each individual has led their own life and their experiences are valid whether they are similar to mine or not. However, to say that the only experience a person can have as a sex worker is negative, whether in a studio or elsewhere, is painting with a broad brush to your own agenda.

    Of course I realise that there are people whose minds are made up, and can always find some way of justifying their own position despite any evidence to the contrary. The argument that my experiences must be different to everyone else’s is a common one, although it never seems to correlate that a negative experience also isn’t everyone’s. It’s so much more comfortable to acknowledge that which meshes with your own beliefs. Cognitive Dissonance wins again.

    Sex workers who work in studios are not forced to. They can choose where they want to work and if the conditions, rules, receptionists, other workers or general environment aren’t to their liking they can go to a different one.

    Some studios have strict rules, some have almost none. Some have a policy against drug or alcohol use, some take the view that it is the workers’ choice. Those who say that the sex industry in general, or the Canberra industry in particular, is ‘rife with drugs, underage girls, organised crime and violence’ are indulging in a rather twisted fantasy.

    Why they are choosing to indulge in it is something that I’m not sure I want to explore, but it’s quite common for people to eagerly repeat stories of sex slavery and other sexualised violence against women with a lascivious gleam in their eye while mouthing disapproval. There are times when I can only shake my head in astonishment.

    What happened with Janine Cameron is a tragedy, but it would be no less of a tragedy were she to have died elsewhere.

    There are drugs all through society, at every level. Please note that when I refer to drugs I really mean drugs and alcohol. Some people use them, some don’t. Some use them for a lifetime without any negative impact, some use for a day and everything falls apart. Sometimes it ends in death, and I would hope that everyone would feel regret at that outcome.

    Some people seem to think that cracking down on drug use will stop these problems. Despite the evidence that countries which have a no tolerance policy on drug use and no NSP have negative health and community outcomes.

    What happens when drug users have to hide their drug use because of increased harassment? It becomes more dangerous. It increases the risk that if they overdose they won’t have anyone to help them, that they will be rushed and damage themselves while using, that they will take less time and be less careful about how they use. That can result in increases in incidents of death from overdose, Hep C infection, endocarditis and vein problems.

    I applaud Simon Corbell for taking the time to get informed about the Canberra sex industry before speaking out, for meeting with sex workers to discuss the current issues, speaking with the police about their interactions with the industry, and for not jumping on the political bandwagon. He’d be much more popular if he was making uninformed statements about the industry needing to be more heavily regulated, but he didn’t take that easy route. Before any conspiracy theorists start, he is not a client of mine and I disagree with some of his past actions, but credit where it is due (sorry dexi, but I know you’ll still love me in the morning, no?).

    The Canberra Times should be ashamed of that article. Their inclusion of Julie was unnecessary, not to mention irrelevant to the death of Janine Cameron, as was most of their unrelated incidents that they threw in like a dog’s breakfast. Because Julie was a sex worker her death is in some way related to the industry? How rude. Given the plethora of information floating around Canberra about that court case the Times would surely be aware that it was not. It makes such good copy though, doesn’t it?

    For the feminists: please stop reading the likes of Sheila Jefferies, try some Roberta Perkins to even out the perspective.

    Those who seek to control our sexuality through feminism are ignoring our right to autonomy and are in fact more insidious and damaging than the worst sexist male, who can be dismissed easily as a relic. A woman saying that the sex other women engage in should be controlled and certain types eliminated is respected as though she is somehow free from bias or cultural conditioning. It is wise to remember that feminists are subject to the same influences as everyone else in society.

    I’m still not sure why people assume that regular exposure to male genitals and money would cause a reduction in intelligence, autonomy and strength of character, who knew that that the penis was so potent?

    Many sex workers, myself included, are feminists but we tend to form our own opinions on the rhetoric. We could perhaps be described as some of the most radical feminists, in as far as we are distanced even from the feminist movement by those who should be our strongest supporters. Xenophobia manifests in many ways.

    The well intentioned ignorant do more damage to the rights of the individual than any regime.

    I know there are studies which say that sex workers experience high levels of assault, mental health issues, drug use, etc. I’ve seen them. Most of those studies tend to be from countries which have criminalised or heavily regulated industries, with few exceptions. There are often problems in their methodology including interview techniques, testing protocols, collation and statistical analyses. You should never believe everything you read in a study, you should carefully check their methodology, their critics, their publishing history, the type of journal it was published in, whether the journal is peer-review, their references, whether the study passed an ethics committee and which one, whether it was academic or privately funded and the background and qualifications of those who ran it.

    Try looking at the Australian studies that show a very different picture of the industry to those cited by anti-prostitution campaigners, which show high levels of education, job satisfaction and autonomy amongst Australian sex workers. If you can go to the effort of finding the negative studies, then finding the positive ones should be just as easy. If you are confident in your assessment of the industry then you shouldn’t be afraid to look at the other side of the coin.

    As for the Swedish model, everyone loves that one except the sex workers in Sweden who have to live under it.

    A short excerpt from Petra Östergren, ‘Sexworkers Critique of Swedish prostitution Policy’ says:

    “…sex workers in Sweden experience difficulty in finding accommodation and constantly worry about being discovered. Consequently, they are either forced to move or pay exorbitant rents. They cannot increase their level of safety by working in pairs or groups and find it difficult to have any sort of domestic or family life as they are considered to be unfit parents. Östergren writes that sex workers find the law paradoxical, illogical and discriminatory. ‘It further obstructs their work and exposes them to danger.’ The better clients have gone away but the more dangerous and perverted ones remain and when apprehended are likely to deny that they paid for sex, if indeed they have. Greater competition leads to lower prices, but this only means that women take risks and are more likely to perform acts that they would have refused previously. Sex workers feel hunted by the police and dare not report abusive customers. However, they still feel stigmatised as weak, dirty and mentally ill, or as having drug problems. Some of the sample interviewed by Östergren reported that they felt used by politicians, feminists and the media who brag and tell lies about the beneficial effect of the Swedish law in comparison with other countries. They are only listened to if they say the politically correct thing.”

    More can be found here for those that are interested:
    http://www.nswp.org/laws/self-sweden-20061211.html

    I’m afraid that it’s true, many people choose sex work who have other options. The studies I mentioned earlier show that sex workers come from all walks of life, and that’s consistent with the range of people I have met through the industry. Does the choice of a woman without a University education have any less validity than that of those who are qualified as nurses, teachers, academics, lawyers and social workers? I tend toward the view that each individual has the right to make their own choices without needing to justify them to others, and certainly not to strangers who persist in referring to them as victims.

    Some people have asked why sex workers don’t tend to discuss our work with friends and relatives (or strangers on websites), and then go on to say that we must be ashamed, and that shame is what we should be feeling. Those attitudes are precisely why people don’t discuss it. Why should we expose ourselves to such unwarranted vitriol? Is it our responsibility to have that fight every single time we meet someone new?

    You can’t win an argument with an ignorant person.

    There are some here (and everywhere) who won’t listen to a word I say, because they don’t want to. It’s better to remain ignorant, because ignorance is bliss, I can see that and even sympathise a little. It must make life a lot easier, god knows mine would be if I believed everything I read in the Times. Why should we publicly proclaim ourselves sex workers and then defend our choices? It just can’t stack up against evidence like ‘What some bloke down the pub told me’, ‘What I saw on A Current Affair last night’ and the all time classic ‘Everybody knows that…’.

    Thank goodness there are those who are willing to listen to all points of view before forming an opinion, and who have the moral strength to reassess even their most treasured opinions whenever new information comes to light.

    Several people have pointed out that I, and those other sex workers who have commented here in a positive way about the industry, do not answer questions about our personal lives, relationships and partners. When we choose not to discuss it, because it is in fact no one’s business but our own, they jump to the immediate conclusion that the real reason for not telling complete strangers everything about our personal lives must be because our relationships are flawed or non existent.

    For the record, the majority of sex workers I have known have been in relationships while working. They tend to break up, make up, fight, love, have children, be romantic and all the other things involved in a relationship just as much or as little as everyone else. The only real difference is in the ‘type’ (god help us we just can’t escape the stereotyping) of partner they have. The partners are men, women, trans, het, bi, gay, young, old and every conceivable variation on human you can think of.

    The one thing they aren’t though, is people who judge us for our work.

    So to the whole ‘all sex work is wrong.. wrong.. WRONG’ gang, please feel free to MYOB. I don’t need your respect, I have my own.

    …and that of my family, friends and coworkers. 😉

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dexi said :

Haven’t we done this all before. You sound like you need to talk to someone. Bringing back a dead thread after being asked to let another die might not be the best option.

If the treads still here, people are still reading it and if I’ve got something to say, I will, whether it be here or somewhere else!

Haven’t we done this all before. You sound like you need to talk to someone. Bringing back a dead thread after being asked to let another die might not be the best option.

Mr_Shab said :

Purenpretty – I’m sure you’ve got something to say here; but if you don’t elaborate, then you’re pretty much leaving us in the dark. What do you mean by “addictive”? What tactics to brothel owners use to “lure a young girl” into working for them?

For whatever reason people enter the sex industry, the main reason is obviously the money. With this money brings a new and more extravagant lifestyle, what you couldn’t afford before is suddenly possible. Maybe “The Party Lifestyle”. An addictive lifestyle, and more money than an average young girl is going to make in a majority of other employment areas. I have seen brothels written advertising notices outside shopping centres and have seen brothel owners flash $$$$$ around to get new faces into their establishments.

But is, what you do as a sex worker (escort) whatever you want to call it, when you enter that room and close that door, forever long the booking may be, really worth that extra money. NO WAY, your selling yourself short. Even, if you see a client and sit and talk to them the whole booking and don’t have sex, its not worth your dignity and reputation in society. Your not going to try and tell me your going to walk down the street with any self respect.

PurenPretty said :

How many hookers have a cent to their name.

Oh yes “PurenPretty”, I can see how that statement would be a powerful way to “lure a young girl into working in the sex industry”. How insightful you are, brilliant.

How many hookers have a cent to their name.

Purenpretty – I’m sure you’ve got something to say here; but if you don’t elaborate, then you’re pretty much leaving us in the dark. What do you mean by “addictive”? What tactics to brothel owners use to “lure a young girl” into working for them?

Watching a brothel owner in action, trying to lure a young girl into working in the sex industry is particularly digusting.

PurenPretty

So if you know its an addictive, dangerous lifestyle could you shed some light into your own personal experience into the working industry? You do have alot of comments on different sites so one would think you are a ex worker or one that visits these places often?

I-filed said :

I know four former sex workers who delivered the same spin as Tess while they were ‘working’ – and believed themselves at the time. They have done a complete turnaround since giving up the work and don’t even allow their closest friends to mention their time in the trade. Cognitive dissonance indeed …

Well, heres another former sex worker that agrees with this statement.

If you really have to do it/try it, dont stay too long, an addictive, dangerous lifestyle.

Sepi- “Currently girls like Jeanine can walk in off the street and start work. And once they’ve done it once they may as well keep going.”

I agree sepi, Janine Cameron should never have been allowed to work as she was underage. She died of a drug overdose, not prostitution. If we want to save lives, then we need to address the addiction.

Its an interesting idea about a cooling off period. My experience is that girls that haven’t done sex work before, come to a brothel and look around. They spend some time talking to the girls, then come back the next night or or during a quite shift. Some don’t come back. Ive worked in a girls rooms where the older workers would spend time training the new girls about what was expected in the rooms as far as health and safety. There was never any pressure, its not for everyone. The procedure of brothel work isn’t as simple as you would expect.

Finding another financial solution. Sex work is the only solution that pays that well, in cash, at the end of the shift. As for the drug world, when you have a serious habit, you sell everything you own first, then you have three option, steal, deal or hock your box. The honest ones, hock their box. However, there is a cheaper solution. Get off the gear. It can be done, but only you can do it. Consider yourself financial counseled.

Poptop, A single paragraph turn on…….. “Wanna argue”

Arguing on the internet is like . . .

RA not a restaurant. There is no need for dishing. Its a forum to express Canberra views. Some one who’s been here a while might better explain. Its an exchange of views. No one has to accept whats written as being anything but a personal view or experience. This is meant to be fun and educational. As you should know as your worked in the industry a while, the world is full of wonderfully diverse people.

FC

“Nice backtraking Martin – however it hardley seems as though your posts were meant in jest.
I didn’t know whether to be offended or just feel sorry for you.
I will got with the latter.
Although I could not be bothered even reading your last two posts, because from reading all the other posts you have put up, quite frankly I couldn’t give a damn what you have to say on the topic anymore.”

That would be a post to be expected from you afterall you did dish out your insults to people in the working industry & feel that is ok to do but cannot handle it when a comment is made back about about yourself. Your are simply uneducated about the whole industry.

Holden C

“From now on I’ll send all my light-hearted replies to Martin’s email for his prior approval, seeing as he’s the only one he thinks is allowed to comment in jest. :p

There’s a lot more I could choose to say in reply too, but this isn’t the time or place for a pi55ing contest with some no-name I’ve never met.”

Feel free to forward all your replies no worries – As per above you dished it out further above & got it back & obviously didnt like it when a degrading comment was put foward about yourself. If its ok for you to be degrading at times towards the industry shouldnt you stand like a man & take some flack back.

As you know this site is easy to change names on here – One will disappear, a new person will appear no-one really knows who is talking to who on here. People log on from all places, ids etc.

And indeed I was genuine in my apology to John Boy but not for your others just should have worded it abit better.

Once confirmation is received from the persons to the email aedress it will ce changed & a new one exchanged,think you were abit behind on that one there.

I don’t have all the answers to the sex industry.

I do have one suggestion.

A two week cooling off period should be required for those signing up to work in brothels. During this time they should be offered financial councelling, to perhaps find another option.

Currently girls like Jeanine can walk in off the street and start work. And once they’ve done it once they may as well keep going.

Indeed, kudos to the Granny.
Like, free glass of wine or whatever it is she drinks at the next RA thingy kind of kudos.

Tess Ryan can have one too.

Whilst there has been no inspections in the last four years, there has been some great work by SWOP who run an outreach program. They visit brothels and private workers with information and support. Its programs like this that have a huge impact on health outcomes and should be encouraged.

Holden Caulfield9:06 am 14 Nov 08

FC said :

Nice backtraking Martin – however it hardley seems as though your posts were meant in jest.

From now on I’ll send all my light-hearted replies to Martin’s email for his prior approval, seeing as he’s the only one he thinks is allowed to comment in jest. :p

There’s a lot more I could choose to say in reply too, but this isn’t the time or place for a pi55ing contest with some no-name I’ve never met.

Well – this thread has generated some of the more interesting comments I’ve seen on RA in the last four or five years.

Granny – that was an amazing post. Your writing is outstanding at times, if scarily revealing. I’m not sure I’d be keen to lay the torrid details of my sexual history on barrelhead like that – even anonymously; so kudos.

If we’re to draw anything from this thread, perhaps it’s that sex and sexuality is waaay too complicated to pigeonhole; and that the sex industry is just another element of that tangled web.

Sepi – I’m still waiting for a suggestion. The system as it stands needs enforcement; but it’s a hell of a lot easier to enforce in a regulated environment than in a criminal one.

And Granny,
I also found your post to be an excellent and inspiring read. So thanks 🙂

Nice backtraking Martin – however it hardley seems as though your posts were meant in jest.
I didn’t know whether to be offended or just feel sorry for you.
I will got with the latter.
Although I could not be bothered even reading your last two posts, because from reading all the other posts you have put up, quite frankly I couldn’t give a damn what you have to say on the topic anymore.

Granny – please consider this a virtual hug. I really enjoy your company on RA, You rock.

Sorry I forgot the paragraph about having a person from the sex-association on shift at these industries to ensure workers are well looked after, not exploited & the monitoring of drugs in these places. Someone the workers can talk to, trust, ie how they feel working & be given all support & having a plan in place & getting the support they need to re-enter the workforce and work a normal 9-5 job again. As it is easy to get caught up in the industry & the longer one is there the harder it is to leave.That is for the ones that are there because they are lost & need to work to survive due to personal circumstances, on the other hand you will have workers who know why they are there, keep to themselves & dont share their private lives with the workers as they are in for the money & those ones you will find leave the industry when they have made the money they were there to make.

Sorry for the extra post I thought this would be a good piece to add in.

Hi All,

I did make a suggestion in a previous post, for those that didnt read it I will post it on this site. Surely making the industry a safter environment is the way to go, bannit it our upping the age will only lead to more people working privately.

I do care for the girls/ladies in this industry. Its not all about filthy mugs, some clients are genuine & do treat working girls/ladies nicely.

Here was my earlier post, I have only re-posted it due to come comments about the industry.

” What I would suggest in the ACT is that they look more into the owners of each brothel, such as M**** who has always had a bad reputation. Do police checks on their backgrounds & make it harder for them to obtain a business as such. But as I mentioned in another post by making the legal age of working girls older is not going to change anything, they will find other ways of working. They will only take their clients with them & work privately. Its reality and anyone who thinks its not is wearing purple coloured glasses. There will be more illegal prostiution on going in the ACT. I certainly would hate the fact that any young girls may start walking the streets & entering into a car with a complete stranger to do a job as anything could go wrong.

I could & would never judge any working girl/lady as being so close to one I know all the ins & outs of the business, all the tricks & trades. Only those that have been there or close to those that work there will ever understand that way of life. They are human, mothers, daughters, sisters, relatives and could be the person living next door to you or the nurse who takes care of you whilst you are in hospital, same with addicts they dont walk around with signs on their heads advertising what they do in their personal lives.

Some are lucky & succeed in the business & dont get involved with the drugs as they tend to keep to themselves not speaking to any working girls/ladies about their personal lives or where they live, yet others sadly do get involved with drugs before working or when they start working & remain close friends with those in the industry going through the same situation as themselves. Most people working in the industry know they will be judged easily if anyone finds out sadly.

Also lets not forget the men that use these services – they dont tend to be judged. Some are married men, in relationships or on the other hand lonely and looking for female company either due to a deceased wife/partner, no body wants to have sex with them or they are just lonely and want to chat. “

These are just my thoughts, some may agree & some dis agree but we all have different views. Knowing someone to me that was so close & worked in this industry I do have first hand information of what it is like to be a working girl/lady & often had met many of them over the years. They are human like all of us.

JohnBoy

My apologies for my earlier post I was joking towards you in relation to your comment to Sepi with the rent boys. No offence was meant to you.

As for the other posts I shall word them better in the future, but do find the first comment from realityskin after Tess’s insight to us all was quite a slap in the face to Tess.

Mismoniker

Sorry the addy is martin19731973@yahoo.com.au
Did a few tests myself & it bounced back due to me not entering the au at the end.
I will only answer to you & by saying that you will know particular details when you contact me.

Sorry all for my earlier post if offence was taken – To Johnboy it was in relationi to his comment not to be taken personally. I have learnt from my mistake.

Thanks, guys.

: )

You make me feel very safe and very humble.

(It’s sure not often that happens!)

I just really wanted dexi to know what was on my heart. If you haven’t already then one day your eyes will lock with someone who wants you because you are you.

Thanks for sharing Granny. Your considered description of an emotional experience was intriguing to read. Much like the OP’s was. And unlike much of the other reactionary dross this thread generated.

Kudos to Granny and Tess Ryan.

From the other Tess Ryan, I only wish I was as coherent and seemingly balanced about my own sexuality and sense of self as this Tess Ryan is, regardless of her profession.

Having just come through one of the most difficult times of my life (and believe me, I could write ten books of it!), and starting to rebuild it, I share some similarities and views with her.

Right now I prefer not to go into detail about all of this, only to say that we all have choices, and she is happy with hers as I’m sure other sex workers are. I don’t judge anyone.

I hope you keep writing here Tess.

Hi All & Johnboy

I get the impression that Martin wasnt being serious to you just having a joke to lighten the posts after some of the degrading posts & comments that were made by others.
I think the comment referred to your post ‘ How do rent boys fit in your world view Sepi?’
and it was lighthearted.

In fact I find it most appropriate a comment to realityskin after what was written after Tess’s post, she was genunie & giving some people out there a good insite to the industry, & I got the impression Martin was giving realityskin a hint to find out for himself.

Many on riot posts appear to have personal attacks on each other including personal attacks on working girls too degrading them, perhaps they too should get warnings.

Thanks for the interesting read everyone 🙂

Love is a strange and wonderful thing. Thanks Granny it was a beautiful story.

I’m gobsmacked Granny. I’ll never look at your posts the same way again. You’re wasted here on the riotact!

tylersmayhem3:53 pm 13 Nov 08

Wow Granny. Thank you for sharing such a special moment of your life. I very memorable piece of writing which I won’t forget for quite some time. 🙂 Thank you!

For me, sex is worshiping somebody else with my body – whether that is only one time or a lifetime.

There are men I have loved that I hardly knew.

The most special one was in California, I guess. I looked up from writing a poem and he was standing there watching me. He asked me out for coffee. We talked. I hardly knew him. He asked me out again. I wasn’t supposed to go, but I did.

He was part scam artist, part gigolo. Women were his work, his livelihood. I had no money. I had nothing. He didn’t need me, but he wanted me.

I went back to his apartment, and we enjoyed each other all night. His housemates walked in on us and we hardly noticed.

The next night, I was in trouble and I needed help to get back to Australia. He wasn’t home but a neighbour let me in and put a note on his door. When he found the note he came for me and we spent the night lying next to each other holding hands. Both were just as special to me.

Next morning he helped me get to the airport and I was back in Australia. He would have come out here, but he would have been bad for me and I couldn’t risk it.

It took me six months to get over him, and we used to write to each other and talk on the phone.

I still can’t hear Me and Bobby D or certain songs by Simon & Garfunkel without thinking of him. Goodbye, Joe also reminds me of him – Joe was his real name.

I suppose you could say that I cost him two lattes and a slice of cake, but if anybody else had offered me that for sex I would have told them to get lost.

The fact is that something in me responded to something in him and I wanted to give him something of myself. I don’t know. Something. For me it is a free gift. Always.

I was offered a thousand dollars once to sleep with somebody and I just couldn’t. We were really poor. He looked around the house and said, “You don’t have much money do you?” He didn’t smell bad, but he just smelled kind of wrong and he didn’t get that if I could have had sex with him it would have been given freely and he tried to take it by force. Well, how could he? It wasn’t possible for him to take what he really wanted. That is something that can only be given.

After fighting for a while I knew that I couldn’t win. I told him, “You’re stronger than me. You can force your way into my body, but I don’t have to stay. After you go I will kill myself. I’m out of here,” and then he broke down and cried and I held him.

I don’t know if I would have suicided, but I meant it at the time and he knew I did. I guess it was fairly fortunate that I’d been reading ‘The Rape of Lucrece’ not that long before. Who knew that Shakespeare could be so useful?

So I can’t speak for other women, only myself, but I am sorry you feel that way about us, dexi. Women can be rejected too, you know.

Holden Caulfield1:43 pm 13 Nov 08

What about a woman who openly says she wants to marry a man on the basis of his financial wealth, which could be described as selling both her body and her heart to the highest bidder she can tempt … where do they fit into our let’s-label-everyone-society?

dexi said :

The issue of safe working conditions for prostitutes, is the challenge that presents itself and it is woman like Tess Ryan, that are working towards this goal, by setting an example for other women.

Oh touche dexi, you are SO right.

“Objectification of women occurs far more often than objectification of men.”

Purely from a objectified male perspective.

Male sexuality seems to be bound up in how a man can pay for the affection’s of the opposite sex. This is not an invention of the male side of the equation. This is dictated by women, and in the case of prostitution, openly. If anything, prostitution reinforces that sexual contact implies an exchange, greater than the shared experience. What may be at stake with women’s opposition to prostitution, is market share and the ongoing payment of restitution. This is about ensuring that women set the agenda and price to exploit male sexuality. Prostitutes accept a one off payment that implies a direct exchange. Whores give men the wrong impression, yes.

Men’s attitudes to women may stem from the constant denial and humiliation of male sexual expression. Whores create the illusion of acceptance, but will indulge in the same put downs as soon as they amongst the other girls. Whores are just women too.

Banning prostitution, you ban a safe form of male sexual expression, even if it is just an illusion. You won’t stop men wanting to express themselves sexually and you won’t stop woman exploiting it. Men if you want sexual expression, free of material exchange, then I suggest finding another man. If you want sexual expression with a woman then be prepared to pay for it.

If you want love, happiness, and a family then you might like to forget the whole sex thing for a while.

Sorry, I don’t buy in to the whole exploited woman thing. I just don’t see it in real life. When I do see it, there are usually drug and alcohol issues.

The issue of safe working conditions for prostitutes, is the challenge that presents itself and it is woman like Tess Ryan, that are working towards this goal, by setting an example for other women.

You just need to use a few ‘goshes’ and ‘darnits’, AngryHenry! Try it, it’s fun ….

*hehehe*

johnboy said :

If your foul mouth trips a language filter you don’t get a warning.

In future I suggest you discuss queries on editorial policy via the contact form as doing it here really gives us the gears.

But consider that martin is being threatened with blanket moderation and you just lost one spray.

Hey sorry, wont happen again! You make me feel like a petulant child sometimes JB.

If your foul mouth trips a language filter you don’t get a warning.

In future I suggest you discuss queries on editorial policy via the contact form as doing it here really gives us the gears.

But consider that martin is being threatened with blanket moderation and you just lost one spray.

Martin1973 said :

Holden Caulfield & Fc

Pay top dollar and see what you get for your moneys worth – Love to hear the feedback from you both in the room, more like you bot would be like a dead donkey pair of sacs in the room after paying top dollar!

realityskin – No working girl would fuc*k you in the back of your ute, mate you have not class, lower than a drunken 60year old on the banwagon!

Realityskin – Gp pay your top dollar then come back to all of us & tell us it it was worth it rather than you wank*ing to some Pamela Anderson Video! Ans for the rest of you that put down the prostitution industry, shame on you all.

Johnyboy – I get the impression you pay for the male services not the female ones, can you please shed some light to us all how your services are, well experienced??

Christ I just wish Chantalle was her with her opened minded heart and soul and to answer all the questions on this site as no doubt she would and without shame. One thing you owe to her is her honesty and integrity!

Dunno how some of my comments on a previous post ended up moderated after reading this spray… Why’d you even allow this shit to be published?

Im pretty sure that I’ve never taken this action before on this site, but Martin you are really beginning to give me the shits.

Martin, your behaviour is not acceptable.

Cease the personal attacks on other readers or be no longer heard.

This is a final warning.

Holden Caulfield & Fc

Pay top dollar and see what you get for your moneys worth – Love to hear the feedback from you both in the room, more like you bot would be like a dead donkey pair of sacs in the room after paying top dollar!

realityskin – No working girl would fuc*k you in the back of your ute, mate you have not class, lower than a drunken 60year old on the banwagon!

Realityskin – Gp pay your top dollar then come back to all of us & tell us it it was worth it rather than you wank*ing to some Pamela Anderson Video! Ans for the rest of you that put down the prostitution industry, shame on you all.

Johnyboy – I get the impression you pay for the male services not the female ones, can you please shed some light to us all how your services are, well experienced??

Christ I just wish Chantalle was her with her opened minded heart and soul and to answer all the questions on this site as no doubt she would and without shame. One thing you owe to her is her honesty and integrity!

Tess Ryan is an incredible woman. Eloquent, insightful, passionate and inspirational.

Fight the dominant paradigm, Tess, burn it to the ground! 😉

Well, for starters we could try enforcing the system we have ….

sepi said :

Everyone says things would be so terrible if prostitution was driven underground. But something is not right if a 17 year old dies of a drug overdose in a regulated workplace.

I don’t think you’re going to get many arguments on that score, sepi.

But it totally fails to answer Mr_Shab’s simple question that has many complex, and no definitive, answers: ‘what are we to do about it?’

It’s only so good to rail at the problem without suggesting viable options.

I for one cannot think of one single, damn idea. (I also have no inside knowledge of the industry. The only time I’ve paid for sex was my property settlement. And yes, I’m being totally flippant, but I did pretty much have my testicles yanked off through my wallet, thank you Robin Williams.)

I just have to concur that driving it underground would bring a world of hurt and ill to those who choose to stay in the industry. I realise that the current system is unworkable if it’s been four years without any proper inspection, but can you, sepi, suggest a better system? I know I can’t.

True, the regulation is crap.

Everyone says things would be so terrible if prostitution was driven underground. But something is not right if a 17 year old dies of a drug overdose in a regulated workplace.

Sepi – if prostitution is a bad thing, what are we to do about it? Ban it?

Well and good, but when you ban anything you simply drive it underground, thereby making damned sure that the only women who work in the industry are the damaged, brutalised and broken. You’ll not see any of Tess’s ilk advocating for better conditions or wider knowledge.

How else do we rid the world of prostitution? “Re-educate” men? Pharmacologically restrain libidos?

I hear criticism, but I’m yet to hear any alternatives. Wooly motherhood statements about “respect”, “changing attitudes” and “embracing women’s rights” needn’t apply. None are going to happen; and even if they do happen, they have consequences we can never grasp in the beginning.

A pretty damned substantial percentage of the sex industry is exploitative; but pretty much all paid work is exploitative at some level. People get treated like crap and brutalised everywhere; not just women and not just in the sex industry. People working in areas outside the sex industry feel “cheap, used and objectified” after work. The world is an ugly and frequently interesting place.

sepi said :

And justbands – if you noticed the gender stereotyping and objectification of men on Sex and the City, and it bothered you, then why are you surprised that objectification of women bothers me?

I think the point is that the denigration of men is endemic, but we don’t whinge about it. Life is too short to quibble about this sort of meaningless drivel.

sepi said :

Objectification of women occurs far more often than objectification of men.
Check the front page of the Daily Tele online for boob and bums, unattached to actual women. Also the bulk of tv, movies and advertising.

Big deal. Men have a visual fixation. Women evalaute and ‘objectify’ men on a whole different spectrum of equally arbitrary and superficial criteria.

Really–what is the problem with having hot girls on the tv? Feminism is all well and good, but go focus on real problems and stop being so bleeding humourless.

Wow, that makes the original post about wannabees so…. totally irrelevant!

I’ll have what seekay’s been smoking.

Travis Bickle tried to save Jodie Foster from a world of prostitution by attempting to assassinate Ronald Reagan, and went on to be a raging bull deer hunter.

Analyse that.

seekay said :

Jeez! There really are a lot of Travis Bickle wannabees on this site.

Are you talkin’ to me?

I mean, Trellis Bicycle.

seekay said :

Jeez! There really are a lot of Travis Bickle wannabees on this site.

Care to expand? Or should we know who Tellis Bicycle is?

Jeez! There really are a lot of Travis Bickle wannabees on this site.

AngryHenry said :

sepi said :

I think a lot of you are treating Tess differently – quite patronising really the way everyone is so keen to tell her how well written her article is – gee – she is a prostitute and she can spell – well done dearie.

A big f^&ck you for that comment.

The article is clearly well written, researched and constructed – better than any I’ve seen here previously, regardless of what you think of the content or the writer.

Accusing people of being ‘patronising’ for recognising this demonstrates little more than the fact that you have some serious problems. I’d suggest going somewhere quiet and dealing with them (maybe Utah), rather than inflicting them on everyone here.

any excuse for Bill Hicks quote is a good one 🙂

I’m starting to think that a few people here have a major problem with sex. All this blather about it being ‘inherently demeaning’ and ‘seedy’.

Sands said: “But don’t glorify an industry and attempt to delude others about what is essentially a seedy business.”

Mate, nobody is glamourising prostitution – but there are a lot of people in here who seem dead set on demonising it, no matter what anybody actually involved in the industry says.

As for Sands’ comment that “She is not the norm. And if she thinks the prostitution industry is a balance of 50% damaged, abused young girls and 50% of women like her, then she is deluding herself.” For gods sake, did you not even bother to read the post, which addressed precisely this kind of comment?

If you have a long history of personal involvement in the industry, why not write a lucid exposition of your experiences. Given the interest in this thread, I’m sure it would be welcomed.

If, on the other hand, you’re bullsh1tting and have no knowledge beyond what ‘some bloke at a pub told you’ or ‘everybody knows that …’, you’re more than welcome to hold your piece (pun intended).

sepi said :

I think a lot of you are treating Tess differently – quite patronising really the way everyone is so keen to tell her how well written her article is – gee – she is a prostitute and she can spell – well done dearie.

sepi, if you’re inferred that from what I’ve written above then you’ve reached that conclusion all on your own and you’re going to have to own that one yourself. That’s more a reflection of your own prejudices and you’ve read stuff in there and jumped to some conclusions that just weren’t there to be read or jumped to.

The fact that Tess has written a superb post has got nothing to do with her profession other than the material she has at her disposal to draw on.

I have to agree that you’re being more patronising here with your comments than many of the commentators you’re railing against.

I’m starting to tip the balance of the number of your comments that I respect. Shame.

sepi said :

Rentboys are not on my radar at all. I don’t have to read them advertising their services next to the baby announcements every saturday, or drive past their parlours when I go to buy furniture in Fyshwick and Mitchell. And as I understood it, they are mostly for men, yet again, anyway. Are you trying to say that prostitution is a 50/50 men to women industry. Or just finding the exception that proves the rule (much like Tess).

I think a lot of you are treating Tess differently – quite patronising really the way everyone is so keen to tell her how well written her article is – gee – she is a prostitute and she can spell – well done dearie.

And justbands – if you noticed the gender stereotyping and objectification of men on Sex and the City, and it bothered you, then why are you surprised that objectification of women bothers me?

For the record, I never said that her article was ‘well written’ but I did find it extremely interesting and quite enjoy being exposed to things I’m not all that too familiar with.

Because she’s a sex worker I can’t give her a compliment without looking like some guy who’s ‘falling over himself’ or ‘turning to mush’??? It would seem you’ve got your assumptions about males too. How are yours more correct than anyone elses?

You want patronising?

– Don’t assume what I’m thinking, DEARIE!

> whoa just bands. I don’t think sepi is confusing the two.

Maybe not. I just needed a lead into my Hicks quote really….& I have to admit to perhaps stirring sepi up, just a little. 🙂

whoa just bands. I don’t think sepi is confusing the two.
The objectification (and sexualisation) of women and girls is a big issue and it occurs often.
A lot of it is so second nature to most of us that we wouldn’t even identify it as objectification anymore.

> Objectification of women occurs far more often than objectification of men.

Don’t confuse an interest in sex & sexual images as the objectification of women (although I won’t argue that that never occurs). To quote the late, great Bill Hicks… “When did sex become a bad thing? Did I miss a meeting?”.

Objectification of women occurs far more often than objectification of men.
Check the front page of the Daily Tele online for boob and bums, unattached to actual women. Also the bulk of tv, movies and advertising.

> And justbands – if you noticed the gender stereotyping and objectification of men on Sex and the City, and it bothered you, then why are you surprised that objectification of women bothers me?

See my comment above yours.

This is ridiculous. Surely we should appreciate both men and women? Both can be treated badly at times. We need each other. It isn’t a war. Vive la difference!

Rentboys are not on my radar at all. I don’t have to read them advertising their services next to the baby announcements every saturday, or drive past their parlours when I go to buy furniture in Fyshwick and Mitchell. And as I understood it, they are mostly for men, yet again, anyway. Are you trying to say that prostitution is a 50/50 men to women industry. Or just finding the exception that proves the rule (much like Tess).

I think a lot of you are treating Tess differently – quite patronising really the way everyone is so keen to tell her how well written her article is – gee – she is a prostitute and she can spell – well done dearie.

And justbands – if you noticed the gender stereotyping and objectification of men on Sex and the City, and it bothered you, then why are you surprised that objectification of women bothers me?

It was just an example FC. Actually, you’ve proven the point I was trying to make quite well. That is, that men & women are both often objectified in one way or another & that we could all post examples either way until the cows come home.

I hardly think that the purchasing of a dildo and the purchasing of a woman for intercourse are really the same thing.

And Sex and the City…. puhlease!
that is one TV series.
Wanna talk about television show/movies, how about the majority of mainstream films over the past, say, twenty years where the man is out there ‘battling and saving the world’ and the woman is merely at home with the children ‘nagging’ or upset about suck trivial things as the man not spending enough time with his family when the hero of the story obviously has bigger, “real” issues (like saving the world) to deal with. But we wouldn’t want to worry the wifes “pretty little head” now would we.
Or how about most of the american sitcoms on TV. I always wonder why the men in the shows always looked varied (fat, tall, short, bald, unnattractive, occassionaly attractive), but the women always seem to look the same (attractive).

Or should we bring into it newsreaders?

Obviously things are changing, but I think it is a silly argument to bring up against ones point that the existance of prostitution can be detrimental to the treatment of woman… “Well in sex and the sexy the men don’t have names…” It just has no relavence to the argument..
And actually most male characters in that show do have names anyway…

MissMoniker said :

FC said :

I missed where sepi painted everyone with the same brush.
I read that they wrote, “Some” men and “other” men.
Not “all” men.

LMAO, yes, sepi is learning not to generalise.

But not that quickly.

I actually have the greatest respect for many of sepi’s comments on this site, but there’s an unfortunate lack of qualifiers on some of her comments above.

As a man, nay as a human, I don’t appreciate being lumped in with general comments about ‘all men’ or ‘you all’.

And even if you’re going to use terms like ‘most’, you’d better have some good hard (no pun intended) data to back it up with.

> You can also objectify us men…….

Not to mention “Sex and the City”. I particularly love how the men in that show never even got to have names. Just nicknames based on the size of their genitals, or their sexual abilities (or lack thereof).

sepi said :

Whereas for women, the existence of prostitutes makes men treat women badly – what on earth is in it for women?

You can also objectify us men by using dildoes, reading ‘romance’ stories and ‘bodiceripper’ novels, or heaven forbid, one of those ‘heartwarming films about modern relationships’ where all the men are simply shadows of one isolated aspect of whatever experience the writers want you to feel something about.
You could also reduce sex into a commercial transaction by finding yourself a discreet gigolo.

Or conversely, you can do like you’ve done again here, and just come across as an irrelevant feminist appealing to basless stereotypes by simply opening your mouth and explaining how all men are -exactly- like realityskin.

FC said :

I missed where sepi painted everyone with the same brush.
I read that they wrote, “Some” men and “other” men.
Not “all” men.

LMAO, yes, sepi is learning not to generalise.

Yes, it was a well written article. Well done Tess and I couldn’t care less what she does – nor do I judge her. But don’t glorify an industry and attempt to delude others about what is essentially a seedy business.

She is not the norm. And if she thinks the prostitution industry is a balance of 50% damaged, abused young girls and 50% of women like her, then she is deluding herself.

Prostitutes ‘fcuk’ clients – and (possibly) ‘make love’ to their partners. There’s the difference. They don’t ‘make love’ to their clients – although by the sound of some of these posts you would think some clients would believe it. realitybites is just asking if she wants a job! Use of the word ‘fukc’ shouldn’t be an issue and I can’t believe some people are offended by its use in this context! Are you deluded enough to ask her if she wants to make love?

You meet one articulate prostitute with a brain and you’ve gone to mush.

Get a grip. But good article.

> I missed where sepi painted everyone with the same brush.

“the existence of prostitutes makes men treat women badly”

“Yep. You’re all falling over yourselves to be impressed by Tess. You get to be broadminded and think about sex all at once.”

Excellent question johnboy, you beat me to it. Seems to me that sepi has a pretty dim view of men as well as women, sex workers, their clientele or otherwise!

Oh and would it surprise you too much sepi if I mentioned the fact that many of my clients were in fact women?

I missed where sepi painted everyone with the same brush.
I read that they wrote, “Some” men and “other” men.
Not “all” men.

neanderthalsis2:36 pm 12 Nov 08

I’ve often wondered why some people have such a problem with people plying their trade as “working girls”. They are working with a marketable commodity, they have a service they are willing to provide to customers willing to purchase it.

Anyone in the workforce is selling themselves for personal gain; Some sell their bodies, some their intellect. Whether it be flipping burgers at MacDonalds or a Department Secretary you’re just human capital. (I could never get anyone to pay for my body, so I had to sell my brain instead)

Some posters here claim that it puts you into contact with the dregs of society and the workplace is rife with drugs. How does this differ from a legal firm? Or even Centrelink for that matter…

How do rent boys fit in your world view Sepi?

> Whereas for women, the existence of prostitutes makes men treat women badly – what on earth is in it for women?

A VERY long bow to draw that one. I’m sure there are many varied reasons why SOME men treat women badly. Personally, I treat all people the same.

Er, speaking solely for meself, my comment about being impressed with Tess’s post is about the way she expresses herself and her obvious intelligence and knowledge of, or at least consideration of, a broad range of subjects.

I never mentioned anything about her chosen profession nor her approach to the same.

Once again sepi, your comments say more about your attitudes (to women AND to men!) than it does about mine. The first comment was by a known troll on the site, you can’t tar us all with that brush.

OF course.

Because men get to ‘sleep with’ prostitutes and get told they are great – what’s not to like.

Whereas for women, the existence of prostitutes makes men treat women badly – what on earth is in it for women?

OF course.

Because men get to F*ck prostitutes and get told they are great – what’s not to like.

Whereas for women, the existence of prostitutes makes men treat women badly – what on earth is in it for women?

Hmmm, yet as a male, its your comments that make me feel less of a human sepi. Because that’s so how I think about women. Then again, a lot of the women I know are whores and madonna’s figure is hot.

Strangely, Ive always found women most critical and openly hostile to prostitutes.

Yep. You’re all falling over yourselves to be impressed by Tess. You get to be broadminded and think about sex all at once.

The very first comment in this thread shows the levels of admiration and respect shown to prostitutes like Tess by some men.

> Being a prostitute at all contributes to many men’s vile attitudes to all women (see comment 1), and to other men’s perceptions of women as either whores or madonna figures.

Seems to me that the men show nothing but admiration & respect to a woman like Tess, regardless of her chosen employment. Perhaps being a prostitute at all contributes to many womens vile attitudes to other women?

One of the most balanced, informative and interesting pieces of prose I’ve read in ages.

Kudos, Tess.

well said sepi.

You don’t have to be an arch conservative to wish that your family members weren’t involved in prostitution.

Being involved in an industry disliked be feminists doesn’t make you a radical feminist, it makes you a self interested female.

Being a prostitute at all contributes to many men’s vile attitudes to all women (see comment 1), and to other men’s perceptions of women as either whores or madonna figures.

Both are unhealthy and don’t contribute to making the world a better place.

What a fantastic post, thanks Tess.

Many of the comments on this thread remind me of the letters to the editor contributions you see around the country from a Roslyn Phillips.

Mrs Phillips has been a long-standing and high ranking member of the Festival of Light for many, many years, but very rarely identifies herself as such in her letters. They are designed to create the impression of a groundswell of support for the arch-conservative positions she holds.

It appears that she has some very vocal RiotACTer friends.

This isn’t a war… It’s a pissing contest!

Thanks for the insights Tess. Personally I don’t think you’d win an argument with the majority of contributors here based on your words about ignorance. Most of these comments are just plain sad, juvenile, slow-witted and don’t really do any justice to the point of view you’ve offered us or the time you’ve taken (which is pretty valuable from what I can gather).

I’d really only assume that regular, frequent exposure to their OWN genitals perhaps DOES cause a reduction in intelligence, autonomy and strength of character (also possibly hairy palms and eventual blindness). Wether or not they just can’t leave ’em alone or they’re overcompensating I’ll leave to you to decide.

Whilst you don’t need my respect I’d like to say you most certainly have it.

Tess, you’re probably one of the fortunate ones.

Obviously not everyone in the industry uses drugs etc. I know people who have seen the seedy side – those vulnerable overseas students etc. Drugs are rife in some brothels. It is not a nice industry for everyone. Regulation exists for a reason (and I’m generally against regulation of almost everything). Inspectors are required to ensure all workers can experience what you’ve been fortunate enough to have experienced.

She would be happy with that, I think it’s $400 and the discussion lasts an hour.

dexi said :

I know we have been told not to feed the trolls, but really how strange to be turned on by the first paragraph.

It was probably the bit about “engaging in this [i]enormous[/i] discussion”, if you know what I mean.

I’ve got a discussion she can engage any time.

I know we have been told not to feed the trolls, but really how strange to be turned on by the first paragraph. Frustrated pervert me thinks. With the “wanna” line its obvious he hasn’t in a very long time so I guess he’s a wanker too.

madocci said :

Yeah lets normalise the industry and trivialise the pain it causes to people taken advantage of by it. Sounds like a good idea to me!

I am sure you all hope and pray that your daughters one day grow up to be just like Tess! Bravo!

From the very start you’re assuming that prostitution is evil and debasing, and that the people in it are being ‘taken advantage’ of … and then the classic “Won’t somebody think of the children”.

Did you not bother to read the article?

I’d infinitely prefer to have an intelligent, self-confident and socially-involved daughter like Tess than some narrow-minded, self-righteously pious person without the ability to engage in intelligent discussion.

well said dexi!

ps.: i stopped reading after the first paragraph

Madocci “Yeah lets normalise the industry and trivialise the pain it causes to people taken advantage of by it. Sounds like a good idea to me!

I am sure you all hope and pray that your daughters one day grow up to be just like Tess! Bravo!”

Lets see the industry for what it is. Lets work to reduce exploitation in all its forms. Lets pray that all our daughters grow up and challenge the world we live in, without the blind ignorance of past generations.

> I am sure you all hope and pray that your daughters one day grow up to be just like Tess! Bravo!

Would I want my daughter to be a prostitute? No. Would I want my daughter to be intelligent, articulate, educated & sensible? Absolutely. I don’t see how the two things are mutually exclusive.

FC, some of my closest friends and family members have made life choices I would not have made personally. If asked, I gave my opinion or advice as honestly and gently as I could. In the end, they made their own decisions as everyone must. I loved and supported them anyway.

I am glad that Tess is happy with the choices she has made. Why would I want her to be miserable and suffering? Anybody who knows me even slightly knows that it is not a choice that would suit me, and would almost certainly be destructive for me.

I don’t agree with everything Tess says, nor should I have to. I think she is an intelligent, kind, beautiful lady and I would hope that she would accord me a similar respect.

Not trying to have a go at you Granny, but if you re read your post above you will note that you are comparing prostritution with smokeing, drugs, loser boyfriends. All things that are seen as negative or bad.
I would agree with this comparison.

“realityskin

Its persons like yourself that degrade & use prostitutes – perhaps if it were a family member of yours working in the industry you may have more respect and realise that working girls are human beings with hearts.

Shame on you.”
I would suggest that degradation comes from selling your bodies and sex for money. If you are in a proffesion and get treated with crap it is your choice to either accept that (ie. putting up with a rude customer if you are a tradesman), or choosing that the money isn’t worth the degradation.
And what else would you expect someone to do if they are seeing a prostitute than to ‘use’ them. They are paying for and ‘using’ a service…

come on guys. its was kinda funny. albeit innapropriate

No, to be truthful it is not a choice that I would like them to make. Same with smoking, drugs, loser boyfriends and many other things. But I would hope I would still show them love and respect, and be there to help pick up the pieces if necessary.

I believe that you should love people, not control them.

Yeah lets normalise the industry and trivialise the pain it causes to people taken advantage of by it. Sounds like a good idea to me!

I am sure you all hope and pray that your daughters one day grow up to be just like Tess! Bravo!

Brilliant post Tess, a terrific read

Thanks

realityskin is a goose, best not to concern ourselves with the likes of him/her.

Tess has once again blown apart the stereotypical image of a sex worker, nice one Tess. I wish you’d contribute more generally to this site actually, it could use more intelligent & informed comment.

Holden Caulfield11:39 pm 11 Nov 08

johnboy said :

Realityskin is our most noted troll and best ignored.

I was going to say “furry muff”, but I suppose, under the circumstances I’ll just say “fair enough” and be on my way…

Realityskin is our most noted troll and best ignored.

Is there anything sensible you wish to add…..or just dribble ????

Martin1973 said :

realityskin

Its persons like yourself that degrade & use prostitutes

Well derr, what else are they there for ?!

Spideydog said :

Wow, you have made us all stupider for having read it ??

In your case, i’m unsure that’s possible…..

what the world needs now………… is more Holden Caulfields ! 😀

Holden Caulfield11:25 pm 11 Nov 08

Not defending realityskin at all, however, one further question if I may … do sex workers have a sense of humour?

Sure, the OP’s post was seemingly well formed, serious in nature and worthy of more meaty discussion that realityskin repsonded with, but on the contrary after such a lenghty post of heavy subject matter, perhaps a mindless, albeit light hearted, gag was not such a bad thing. It may also have been delivered with a large dose of irony.

At least, that’s what I thought after reassessing my most treasured opinions after new information came to light.

realityskin

Its persons like yourself that degrade & use prostitutes – perhaps if it were a family member of yours working in the industry you may have more respect and realise that working girls are human beings with hearts.

Shame on you.

I know four former sex workers who delivered the same spin as Tess while they were ‘working’ – and believed themselves at the time. They have done a complete turnaround since giving up the work and don’t even allow their closest friends to mention their time in the trade. Cognitive dissonance indeed …

Such lengthy, well written, well informed and interesting comments have no place on this site – you’re making the rest of us look bad (though it would seem some of us need little help…).

Thanks very much for taking the time to share – a very interesting and informative read (at least to those such as myself who are largely ignorant of that world).

Some really good points made, and the discussion has made for some fascinating reading for someone who has never had anything to do with the industry!…as for the huge ads with ‘Meet Your Lesbian Match’ that now surround the riotact pages…

After such an articulate, smart and well thought out post by Tess, we have a reply of :

realityskin said :

that turned me on…

….. wanna fcuk ?

Wow, you have made us all stupider for having read it ??

Unlikely ….

that turned me on…

….. wanna fcuk ?

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