Wednesday's apology to Aboriginal Australians

Your half hour is up.

Sorry.

One last comment before we let kev07 solve everything.

Read these comments, in particular the one headed:

“Am I Sorry That I’m Not Sorry’

http//:www.farisqc.observationdeck.org/

Someone who has been on the ground and knows the real story.

One case…confessed to Andrew Bolt of all people.

There was no formal policy, but it did happen, a human rights commission report found that. Keith Windschuttle is often full of sh-t – I’d be surprised if his ‘research’ wasn’t just a crock of sh-t like the rest of his work – and even if there was only two removed on the basis of race, officially, a formal apology is still due. It was the wrong thing to do.

$65 million was pledged towards the effort to alleviate conditions in indigenous communities by the labor government today, Barking Toad. Sorry day was only the first step.

Thank you Nemo.

Game over.

Now let’s concentrate on doing something to alleviate the tragedy that still exists instead
of resting on the laurels of symbolic gestures.

Bolt used to be a Labor staffer. I think he saw the light.

While I dont agree with a lot of Keith Windschuttle’s work, he did a lot of research on the stolen generation. He went through hundreds and hundreds of case files and found 2 people who had been removed on race grounds, the rest were removed for their own protection or were given up by their families.

First person Kevin Rudd hugged yesterday was Lowitja O’Donohue.. Quote from http://www.ziggy.com.au/sorry.htm

“O’Donoghue claimed for years that she was one of the Stolen Generation, yet confessed in tears to prominent journalist Andrew Bolt that this was a blatant lie and that her father had literally dumped her and her four siblings at the United Aboriginal Mission’s Colebrook Children’s Home. O’Donoghue was not stolen at all, but simply abandoned by an uncaring father. But O’Donoghue has virtually made a career out of this utter fabrication and is now pushing for some monetary reward. Andrew Bolt commented about O’Donoghue, “To look at her own history, the two missionaries who took her in – Sister Rutter and Sister Hyde – did a marvellous job in not just saving her, but giving her a brilliant future. They deserve her thanks, not these distortions and demands for compensation.”

Other quotes from that page:

– In Victoria, the state Stolen Generations Taskforce concluded there had been no formal policy for removing children. Ever.

-In the Northern Territory, the Federal Court found no sign of any policy of removal of part-Aboriginal children such as that alleged by the Aboriginal Industry.

-In Tasmania, the Stolen Generations Alliance, the very organisation formed to prove that the white man had a policy of removing aboriginal children from their tribes and families, admitted that there were no removal policies as such.

– In South Australia in 2007, the Supreme Court found no government policy to steal Aboriginal children there, either. Rather, stealing black children had been without legal authority, beyond power and contrary to authoritative legal advice.

I read Jensen’s speech bt, didn’t see anything in there I haven’t already heard a 100 times here and elsewhere.

As for your hero bolta, a man who has repeatedly and stridently proclaimed that no children at all were ever stolen, describing him as slightly right-leaning is somewhat like calling Charles Manson slightly eccentric

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douchebag

I attacked his speech. What’s your reply?

First pierce then ingee start off by falling into the hippie trap of attacking the Bolta – can’t they read what I post? Go to Hansard if the Bolta’s slightly right leaning views make you froth – the link to there was for you to read Jensen’s speech, not to let the Bolta upset you.

Then ingee, true to form, firstly attacks the messenger without addressing in a rational way the comments made by Jensen. Except to say along the lines of “this is what I think, anyone else’s view is wrong and they are therefore racist”.

But it’s the hippie way. Like the gorebull warmening alarmists referring to anyone who disagrees as a ‘denialist’ ala ‘holocaust denier’.

By the way, can anyone explain what ‘douch-bag’means?

Ralph, the laws and regulations (and there were many, over a long time period, in many jurisdictions) under which the removals occurred specifically use race as the enabling condition for removal. As a starting point, take a look at this document – the Aborigines Act 1905 being a good starting point, under which: Regulations may be made … ‘enabling any aboriginal or half-caste child to be sent to and detained in an aboriginal institution, industrial school or orphanage’.

Numerous statements from the framers and implemeters of these laws from the time belie their intent. Your attempt to cast this in the same light as DOCS removing a child from an abusive home today is bald revisionism.

Ralph, they’ve been living and breeding their for 80,000 years – longer than most whites were in their traditional homelands in Europe. We have no right to say they cannot breed anymore.

Maelinar, we need all those things, but first we need to sustain these communities until infrastructure for economic growth is built. Right now, there is nothing for these people to live off apart from welfare. Take that away from them and the only way they will have left to survive is to steal.

Those of you claiming to know better directions for and implementations of policy are welcome to go and tell the NTER what they’re doing wrong.

Welfare encourages these people to breed and cohabitate in the remote communities, and they aren’t expected to give anything back in return.

We wont headed in the right direction until the welfare dollah dries up. Until it does, there is no incentive for change of behaviour.

Yes we need industry, schools, hospitals and infrastructure and everything else also, but until there is motivation for change, nothing will.

I hope so too.

But I share your predictions. This is a long road. At least now, we’re headed in the right direction.

Should we just tell them to get jobs? In Alice Spring, Wadeye and places like that?

Take a look at the city you live in, cherish it and shut the f-k up, Ralph.

Yep, lets throw more welfare at them. That will fix everything.

And circle sentences with the ‘elders’.

On the rape thing, sexual abuse and violence are symptoms of poverty. You can punish the offenders forever, but you still won’t be attacking the root of the problem.

That being said, I didn’t actually agree with the judge’s decision regarding the rape of the young girl up in Queensland. However, I do think that too much focus is given to legal punishment and not enough to grassroots approaches to improving the situation in the community as a whole.

You’re further clouding issues there, Raphe.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/jensen_explains_why_he_wasnt_sorry/
– might help a bit better.

Dennis Jensen can kiss my arse. He’s nothing but sewerage from poorly-digested tripe years ago.

1) EVERYTHING in parliament house is timed politically. That’s how it’s done. It’s not really the best way to go about it, but every party does it.

2) Channel 7 news polls show jack squat. To respond to them you must a) Take Channel 7 news seriously. b)Take Channel 7 polls seriously. c) Actually bother. d) Be a complete moron. The opinions of about 0.01% of Perth’s idiot population is hardly representative of Perth’s 100% overall population.

3) The removal of aboriginal children was carried out in many states, around the same time. A Human Rights Commission found that in many cases, there was no evidence of actual neglect.

4) The situation where a vast proportion of a certain ethnicity live in poverty, where the life expectancy of that ethnicity differs greatly from that of others (aboriginal people are considered to be at old age at 45), where they have had a long history of race-based abuse and exclusion by other groups clearly indicates their needs to be a policy based on the ethnicity itself, as that is the common link.

5) Apartheid? Get f-ked – aboriginal rights is nothing like the apartheid.

6) All Howard did was ‘send in the troops’, like the good ol’ yankee boy he wants to be. He disregarded what was already in place and did sweet f-k all but make the aboriginals more wary of the authorities they should be co-operating with to improve the situation in these poverty stricken areas.

7) There’s only one line I agree with – “I worry that many in Australia will now think that the job is done, whereas the job has not even started.”. No-one is expecting the job to be done. This is the first step.

In conclusion, Jensen, like you Toad, is a wanker. My thanks for enlightening me on the blatant backwards stupidity that is still around today.

That’s just another left wing fantasy, that it was motivated by racial reasons.

Rudd said he’s never going to let it happen again, so all those kids getting raped and abused, we’re just going to leave them there now are we?

Either way it was all a token gesture.

Its ok, there is a solution, when the compo claims come in, the bleeding hearts volunteer to have their tax rates upped. Everyone is happy.

Ralph you can thank me for setting you straight later, but its a simple fact the apology was not about kids taken away because they were being abused, or because their families diddn’t care about them or were not able to look after them or they were living in such squalor that taking them away was the only thing that would improve their lot in life. The fact is people were taken away in those circumstances – and still are – but these examples have nothing to do with the apology and the kids that were rounded up and taken away because they were Aboriginal and there was a view that, by separating them from their parents you could breed the ‘blackness’ out of them.

Tool.

Call me a maggot if you like.

Indeed.

Never mind the key point that a great deal of these kids were taken for their own protection.

Thumper – at least you get a choice! Those of us not dumb enough to believe that the apology was not necessary only get ‘bleeding hearts’.

Thanks bt, but I’m sorry I don’t see where you have been enlightened.

I read Bolt’s bog-paper missive this morning and between wondering why we don’t have any genuine conservative intellectuals and wondering when he was going to realise that, as a rule when you find yourself at the bottom of a bloody deep hole it’s generally best practice to quit digging, I thought about Jensen’s contribution to the moot debate.

I thought about the essential immorality of trying to politicize what is essentially a issue requiring bipartisan cooperation and decided it must be Jensen’s aim, upon finding himself irrelevant on the opposition benches, to mark himself as the most irrelevant in the sea of irrelevance.

Then I considered the issue of why so many fellow conservatives seem to be so earnestly wrong in believing that conservatism somehow justifies racism, stupidity and ignorance – traits they believe should be worn as a badge of honour to mask their inability to make any real contribution to society. As I was considering all this I started to hear the the background whine of all the pathetic little arse-maggots bleating on about how wrong it was to apologise and how nothing would change and whatever irrational little lie they want to keep telling themselves like some little brat who’s still persisting with the tantrum after the rest of the kids have left to get on with their lives.

Build a bridge dick-heads, it’s done. So instead of harping on like a useless bunch of retarded douch-bags it might be time to decide – are you going to lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.

If it’s a choice between “bleeding-heart” and heartless bastard – because clearly there are only two possible states of existence in the Bolt-a-verse – then I’ll happily go with the former.

If you want to know why virtually everything Andrew Bolt say is either wrong, malicious or stupid, check out the range of point by point demolitions of Andrew “the war in Iraq has been won – 2007” Bolts postings at Boltwatch

For all the bleeding heart guilt-ridden ‘sorry’ people, read the speech Dennis Jensen made in parliament today to get some perspective on this kev07 stunt.

The bulk of it is reported in Andrew Bolt’s blog on the Melbourne Herald-Sun site :

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/

Rather than froth about Bolt’s political leanings, just read what Jensen had to say. Or if it offends to access Rupe’s on-line news, look it up in Hansard.

Your thanks for my enlightening you may be posted in this thread.

Bugger! Hey is that the sort of fruitcake that tastes great drowned in muscat and served with ice cream?

heh – stollen is a little fruity bread you can pick up in Aldi once a year.

I guess I’m one of the stollen generation, I’m looking forward to buying some come christmas time now…

What is Stollen?

“Frankly I’d guess 50% of people out there in this wide brown land have no idea about the issue …”

Spot on Thumper. Heaps of people believe that the so-called “Stollen Generations” were kids taken away because they were being abused, or because their families diddn’t care about them or were not able to look after them or they were living in such squalor that taking them away was the only thing that would improve their lot in life. The fact is people were taken away in those circumstances – and still are – but these examples have nothing to do with the kids that were rounded up and taken away because they were Aboriginal and there was a view that, by separating them from their parents you could breed the ‘blackness’ out of them.

With the victim mentality, though, Thumper – weren’t the survivors of the stolen generations victims?

Crikey – that’s winter coming you ass.

Sometimes there is a place for tact, sensitivity, timing and finesse.

You don’t always have to hammer home the truth with a baseball bat.

Money isn’t going to change anything that has happened in the past, not to mention that within some Aboriginal communities, money is not always beneficial to their health and wellbeing (ie drugs, alcohol).

I think they are already continuing to be compensated by the Government on a daily basis though diffferent programs and health services. I don’t expect my tax dollars to compensate for something I had no part in.

Well Brendan said they shouldn’t get compo, becuase what happened to them was SO bad that money can’t compare.

So new rules for compo – only available if you didn’t really suffer that much….

Twas poorly judged and poor timing.

Bit like making a wedding speech about what a slapper the bride used to be really.

As for compo, the apology doesn’t change the fact that, while wrong, the actions taken in most cases weren’t illegal and therefore aren’t actionable.

There’s a big difference between asking for compo and getting it.

And actually, can someone explain to me exactly why someone seriously wronged shouldn’t be allowed to claim compo? The board of James Hardie weren’t running the show 30 years ago and Cornelia Rau got paid out for a massive govt stuffup.

Why shouldn’t this go to the courts and consider all the facts in the matter?

The problem with Nelson’s speech was that when you are apologising to someone, it’s generally bad form to keep throwing in a bunch of statements that imply that – well, you kind of deserved it.

Everybody knows that there are problems in Aboriginal Australia that certainly shouldn’t be swept under the carpet but the timing was completely wrong and it did seem very much like something he’d been made to put into the speech to get it past the party room in the first place.

Step One: Sorry
Step Two: Compo claims

I think Nelson was doomed from the start. His speech could not have been from the heart, really – he had been trying to change sorry day to ‘seperation day’ only a few weeks ago. As Tony Abbot said, it was a brave thing to do, considering the Coalition’s history on this issue (or something along those lines). Sorry day was never going to be the Coalitions day.

I think Dr Nelson started well but tripped over himself trying to appease some of the wankers in the Coalition by perpetuating some of the bullshit that gets bandied about in the whole debate, so it was only natural that people across the country would turn their back on him … I guess in reality, his views are essentially of little interest given that the Coalition is just another ‘also ran’.

The intervention stuff was really neither here nor there seeing as the Coalition was unconditionally asleep at the wheel on those issues for over a decade (perpetuating the inaction of the Hawk/Keating Governments) so it’s only logical to dismiss any chest beating on that account as puff-posturing.

Nelson speech was very good. It was a shame the aboriginal-industry didn’t bother to listen.

In the context, I thought it hilarious that Brendan Nelson is demanding an apology for the grievous wrong done to him by two staffers who turned their backs on a TV picture of him in another room. Yeah – they were stupid and discourteous. But compare this with the substantive business of yesterday and it becomes very funny.

Told you that Australia would be a much greater place after the apology. I could just feel it in the air this morning.

Some of you lot are worse than talkback callers…

Stop trying to spoil the mood and just accept this apology. This sorry business is bigger and more holistic than you bunch could ever comprehend.

For those trying to stir things up for the hell of it; it’s not helping.

For those who truly think this apology was a bad idea; you can get stuffed for all I care.

At least I’m feeling pretty good about how today went, and I don’t need rednecks trying to make me believe that this is a bad idea.

We all know the situation’s pretty screwed up, and that’s what today’s about. It’s about accepting things could be a hell of a lot better, and that we should do something about it.

Or are you lot just going to hide behind your excuses and pretend you’re on the moral high ground?

Thanks for posting the article. I read the whole article. I comprehended that Marcia Langdon was in favour of the intervention. I also read that various other people were not – I never argued that ML was against it…

I also never said there was no need for action on the situation in INdigenous Communities.

My point is that the intervention was poorly thought out, cost a fortune to achieve little and displaced programs that were actually achieving something.

I’m not the only one reading what I want to into things….

sepi the policy expert has already made up her mind Nemo.

“But when there is a national crisis and
emergency, it means that things are bad.
We know things are bad in our communities.
We attend the funerals. We know our
children are being raped. We know our
women are being violated, and it takes
guts for someone to do something.”

Yeah, those local programs were achieving shiteloads, obviously. Better to just leave them alone eh sepi?

Firstly you said “Have you got a cite for any Indigenous people who are in favour of the Intervention?”
That article has several Aboriginal leaders in favour of it.

Secondly, Marcia Langton has been widely criticised for her support of the intervention.

No where in that article does she state that the intervention needs to be “significantly reworked” – her critics were quoted as saying that.

“former ATSIC chair Lowitja O’Donoghue and ANU academic Jon Altman – yesterday arguing for significant changes to the plan. But Professor Langton said the work of the intervention, unveiled by John Howard in July, was too important not to proceed.”

This article clearly shows several high profile Aboriginal leaders in support of the intervention.
You can read whatever you like into it…

I doubt it, because it is flawed policy. 500 million, to achieve not very much – what a phenomenal waste of money. And in the process they scrapped a lot of small local programs that were actually achieving a lot, with limited means.

Nothng in the Intervention is about building better communities for the future. It is one-off Headline Grabbing stuff. “a health check for every Indigenous child” – pointless without follow-up services.

These communities have been let down for years, by multiple governments, at both state and federal level.

Kevin said sorry and he’s now some kind of saint.

John Howard actually DID something. It might be the only decent thing he ever did in office, but I can’t help but think your opinion would be different if Kevin Rudd had introduced this policy.

To me that article is just saying they don’t want to lose the funding and momentum that the Internvention may have got, but that it should be significanlty re-worked IN Consultation with INdigenous people.

No exactly a ringing endorsement.

Sepi

Recent quote from Marcia Langton, Aboriginal leader and academic, “Until now, public condemnation of the Intervention has been at the centre of much academic and legal debate spilling into the national media, forums and rallies by people mostly outside Aboriginal communities, speaking on behalf of the affected communities. ”

You may also find this of interest.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22839807-5013946,00.html

Interesting article:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_the_stolen_truth

Sepi – There was a story on the ABC recently regarding the intervention. The reaction was mixed, some communities, such as Maningrida opposed it, others welcomed it.

This constitutes most people?

What about the hundreds of law enforcement officers who have upped sticks and moved to the area?

Here’s a couple of links. I’ve put these up as they are not people’s personal blogs.

And here’s a short quote
“A doctor at a health care clinic in the remote Northern Territory community of Maningrida thinks money going towards the Federal Government’s Indigenous intervention could be better spent.

In Maningrida, the taskforce’s demountable clinic is operating in the backyard of the community’s permanent medical centre.

Doctor Geoff Stewart says the $83 million already spent on health checks would be enough money to correct the underfunding of all existing health services in the Territory.

“It’s more than what would be estimated to be required to bring all health services across the Northern Territory up to a level of funding where we’d all be expected to provide a comprehensive range of primary health care services.”

http://larvatusprodeo.wordpress.com/2007/11/07/tracking-the-intervention-discarding-and-devaluing-aboriginal-work/

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20071105/intervention/default.htm

Sepi – what you’ll notice is that I never made a claim that indigenous people were in favour of the intervention.

You on the other hand said this:

Most people who work in or with Indigenous communities are against the intervention.

No one is surprised.

Apology must be followed by compensation: ALS
Posted 4 hours 2 minutes ago

The Aboriginal Legal Service says compensation must follow the Prime Minister’s formal apology to the Stolen Generations. (ABC)

Map: Perth 6000
The Aboriginal Legal Service in Perth says Indigenous people are now looking to compensation following the formal apology to the Stolen Generations by the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd.

West Australians packed Perth’s foreshore to listen and watch the telecast of Mr Rudd, but the Opposition leader’s reply was met with an angry response that forced organisers to cut short his speech.

This morning a large crowd, including the Premier Alan Carpenter applauded Kevin Rudd from an auditorium on Perth’s foreshore as he said sorry to the Stolen Generations.

The Chief Executive of the Aboriginal Legal Service Dennis Eggington says the crowd’s reaction to Dr Nelson’s reply was indicative of the passion surrounding the issue.

“Because of the acknowledgment that these policies were wrong and that they have suffered there’s no denying that compensation should be paid,” he said.

Legal experts believe the apology will not trigger claims because authorities removed children lawfully.

Whilst some Indigenious Australians have a legitimite claim many will fall into the “Secret Women’s Business” category. What a crock of sh%T!

Kruddy’s speech was one of the best. Electrifying. Clear message, and underlying adoption of religious cadences and themes (I think).

Nelson tried, but was all over the place. He was struggling to address the concerns of the redneck end of the Coalition, at the same time as endorsing the move ahead. I can’t help thnking Turnbull (or Julie Bishop or some others) would have done a lot better.

Have you got a cite for any Indigenous people who are in favour of the Intervention? Those I have heard against it are people I have spoken to personally, or else from blogs – which I’d rather not direct you to if you would just go to their blog to harangue them.

Nelson’s speech may have been True, but it was Tactless and Inappropriate. Today was about apologising to the Stolen Generations for what was done decades ago, not about how much the Howard govt spent in their Intervention, or about the Anzacs, or how hard life was for the first White Settlers.

All that said,

An excellent speech from Rudd. Likewise I thought Nelson spoke well. The histrionics regarding some of the subject matter brought up seemed over-the-top – sad as it is, it was based on the truth.

Mr Evil there is an Aboriginal man on the ABC news last night who would like a word with you about this stereotype you put upon his people… : )

Howdy – if the stereotype fits… Perhaps you should do some research on exactly what is going on in NT communities at the moment.

<Most people who work in or with Indigenous communities are against the intervention.

Most of them? Got a CITE for your information there, sepi?

I know howdy – I just think that some issues aren’t always so black and white – so to speak.

Crap! I said sorry! : P

Me go now. I still think yer ok Thumps, sorry. Just look at the other side a bit more : )

Pierce – there is ingrained racism in politics too : ) whether it’s obvious to it’s followers or not…

The plane back from Melbourne yesterday had quite a few indigenous australians coming up for the event, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t be wasting their time or money if it didn’t mean something to real to them.

Racism doesn’t have to be direct. It is also implied.

Your focus on the political aspects of the issue as being more important than the symbolic and humanistic act of the apology and what it might mean ’emotionally’ to Aboriginal people and non-indigenous people distresses me.

What might offend an Aboriginal person emotionally involved in the issue? Even if it wasn’t the intention of the entire comment…

“some crap to do with handing over first born sons”

“I’d also like to see an apology given to whites who were also focibly removed from their families at the same time”

“I fully expect this thread to go ballistic after all the true believers get back from their love in at parliament house.”

“Actually, it’s not the apology that irks me so much, it’s more the blind faith shown by the hand wringing followers.”

You might want to see action from the govt, I can see that, and your intentions do not wish harm, rather they are inherently good. That in itself is not a show of racism but be careful overlooking the role of the apology. In it’s political AND emotional contexts. Look at what it means to Aboriginal people as well, read their stories, see how the apology affects them as people once you you remove the political aspect(some may even appreciate the political aspect of it, after all it is a change in govt thinking towards Aboriginal People).

Some Aboriginal people aren’t happy, granted – yet parliament was packed out with people whom the apology MEANT something important to.

Don’t dismiss that. After all this all originates from what is inherently a humanistic and emotional issue.

An unwillingness to join the Indigenous people to publically and symbolically recognise the bad things that happened to the stolen generations may not be out and out racism, but it is hardly a strong commitment to reconciliation and a fair go for all either.

While I disagree with some of the conclusions Thumper has come to, they don’t seem to come from racism but more from a political place.

(He did get it totally wrong about Hawke and Keating not turning up though)

Your posts have given me the impression of racism too.

So, It’s all about politics?

Politics obviously being devoid of any emotional motivations based on racial attitudes.

noooooooooooo! I was going for 4.

humph

3 post nutbag

Idealist idealist I know. No point in believing in things when pessimism is so much easier.

If Kevin’s speech is a step towards changing the culture of institutionalised racism in politics – whether it’s realised or not (it feels like a bit has come out of the woodworks lately) then it is more than just an apology, it’s him trying to take a political step forward and push aside the thinking that has been holding back progress.

Personally I would now also like to see progress in non-indigenous childrens education regarding indigenous culture and history.

Pity Thumps. I’d actually thought u were a decent person. Until race became involved…

Nelson’s distress was that it was MORE important that Kev talked to him…

OK….but Howdy said Nelson angrily said to the effect of “Kevin Rudd shouldn’t be consulting with the Aboriginal people on this matter – he should be consulting with me!”

So Nelson didn’t say anything about NOT consulting with the Aboriginal people?

“my bottom lip bled”

Thumper gets narrrrsty : P

Cheers sepi, it twas pretty funny : )

She should get a life… but (no offence) it is the public service so what could we expect thumper ?

From the ABC website”:

“This is all appearing chaotic. To the great credit [of] a lot of my colleagues we have decided in principle we will support this,” he said.

“But if Mr Rudd wants it to unify Australia, to bring our nation together, the most important person he should be negotiating with is me.

John Howard’s address to parliament here http://tizona.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/john-howards-motion-relating-to-reconciliation-as-put-to-parliament-august-1999/

Much more powerful and heart felt, not nearly as breast beatingly grovelling and shallow as today’s attempt. If Rudd had sincerely meant it he would have exerting pressure to have been doing something in Queensland long since.

I saw that Nelson quote on the news too. They showed Rudd consulting with Indigenous groups etc, then cut to Nelson in a radio interview saying angrily “The most important person he should be speaking to is ME”.

So funny!

Full text of the Ruddling’s Motion and Speech:
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/Rudd_Speech.pdf

Full text of the Nelson Speech (including where the measure of support was taken):
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/Nelson_speech.pdf

But the formatting of the actual motion implies what was released as a precursor was the full motion, my understanding is that the entire speech could be treated as a motion, which was then supported unanimously by those present. (several Members having left before the motion was introduced)

Crikey – he he you don’t believe me. It was aired by a couple of stations in the lead up. I wish I had access to quote it…

Howdy, please give me the link to that quote or is it yet another one of your rash statements?

Thumper, when a Liberal Govt tries to help it’s called being patronising, but when Labor does the same thing, it’s called “giving a helping hand”.

Pity there aren’t a few more Indigeous Australians in the same class as Noel Pearson.

“Mr Evil do you have any ideas to contribute besides ‘they should pick up their acts’?”

Well, generally you have to want to help yourself if things are going to change for the better – no matter what the situation is. Throwing more money on housing that some (not all) Indigenous Australians have no respect for; schooling that is only semi-compulsory; health care that isn’t utilised properly by the community isn’t going to solve things, is it.

I liked it on the news a week back where Bogan Nelson angrily said to the effect of “Kevin Rudd shouldn’t be consulting with the Aboriginal people on this matter – he should be consulting with me!”

Noel Pearson makes a fair point about not living the role of a victim – ultimately I don’t think that helps anyone.

At the same time, a simple apology is an important act in acknowledging that something wrong was done, that it shouldn’t have been done and it should never happen again.

It’s not supposed to fix all the problems, it’s about being big enough to admit your mistakes and take actions to move on. It allows both sides to move on.

Look at so much of the ethnic tension that goes on in the world today – often coming down to the fact that 800 years ago the such-and-such people so something to the so-and-sos and they’ve both hated each other ever since.

We haven’t had 11 years of a Rudd govt to tell us whether the man can lie straight in bed, so lets give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he’s going to do what he says.

As for Nelson’s speech, every time he gave a sentence saying that “yep, forced removal was horrible”, he backpedalled on it in the next two by insisting it was always done with the right intent or that Aboriginal people lived in squalor. (And then he made the completely irrelevant point that we shouldn’t think badly of people from that time because they went and fought in the war)

Granted, Kevvy slipped in a few sly jabs about Howard not apologising in his speech, lowering the tone slightly with the politicisation but bam, Nelson launched directly into a spiel about the intervention that seemed wholly out of place and somewhat inappropriate for an event focussing on the stolen generation.

Can’t say I blame some people for turning their backs.

As for the other suggested apologies – (some pretty bloody funny I might add) – this is 70 odd years of institutionalised screwing with people’s lives we are talking about here – and I’m pretty sure that some of those listed have actually had apologies already. (Or weren’t the responsibility of any govt – or simply deserved what they got for following Rugby League in the first place)

It’s fine to say we should all be treated equally – but if you are so far behind (life expectancy etc) that you’re not on the playing field at all, it’s only right to give someone an extra boost first.

/rant

And the act of people turning their back on Nelson’s speech is disgusting to say the least.

On what basis? If people turned their backs before he said anything before he started his speech, then yeah, I agree that was poor form. I probably wouldn’t call it disgusting behaviour, but that’s your right. However, I was at the so called Parliamentary triangle love in (partly as a show of support and partly just to witness the occasion) and I don’t recall seeing anybody turn their back until about half way through Nelson’s speech when at which point they were distressed/upset/offended at some of the issues he mentioned. At first I did not feel a need to turn my back, but there were a few parts where he lost me completely and I joined in the crowd, so to speak.

I’m not denying anything that Nelson said may have had individual merit, but for a lot of his points this was not the forum in which to express those views. At best, it displayed a gross misunderstanding of the political climate of the day, at worst, it showed that he and his party really don’t give a shit and have been dragged into supporting today’s apology against their wishes.

People shouldn’t apologise when they stub someone in the toe because it’s just words and no matter how heartfelt the apology is it wont fix the injury caused?

It’s just some cunning ploy to make the person you stubbed in the toe not get angry at you anyway…

Hmmmm, should I think like that? Nah, when you stub someone in the toe it’s still good to apologise.

“Meanwhile in many communities it’ll be back on the piss, bash the missus and screw the kiddies by 9am tomorrow morning”

Mr Evil there is an Aboriginal man on the ABC news last night who would like a word with you about this stereotype you put upon his people… : )

Mr Evil do you have any ideas to contribute besides ‘they should pick up their acts’?

Kevin has also committed to working to improve housing, health and life expectancy for Indigenous Australians.

Indigenous Australians is the preferred term of the people themselves. Using other words is like apologising to a friend and constantly getting their name wrong or calling them a nickname they hate.

Damn emotions getting involved in an emotional issue!

Listening to his speach was enough. He has a had time hiding what’s underneath his skin.

“It was more about heartfelt feelings and a genuine desire to right past wrongs and improve the situation for Indigenous Australians.”

Sepi, what airy-bloody-fairy world do you live in?

Do you seriously think that anything will change in the lives of the average Aborigine just because Kevin007 said “Sorry”? Do you also seriously believe Kevin was being heartfelt, or was he just playing the cunning politician?

Maybe if many Aborigines start taking responsibility for their actions and pulled together amongst themselves – then things might begin to change.

Meanwhile in many communities it’ll be back on the piss, bash the missus and screw the kiddies by 9am tomorrow morning.

Pity nelson’s heart isn’t really in the right place.

what’s the difference?

My guess is that the bits where Bogan Nelson said ‘aboriginies’ were most likely written by him and the more heart felt parts referring to the politically correct term ‘aboriginal people’ were possibly included on advice.

: P

West Kambah I believe we should fight for the removal of their self proclaimed knighthood until they give you a formal apology : )

The use of an influenza epidemic by the government to control the rabbit like increase in population size in 1918 is one of the greatest cover ups in the history of Australia?

Comment by howdy — 13 February, 2008 @ 1:31 pm

I know! They can’t face the FACTS!

I thought Kevin’s speech was great. Totally appropriate.

I thought Brendan Nelson missed the mark in his reply. There was no need to use offensive terms like half-caste, blacks and boongs on this occaision, even regretfully. And bringing up the struggles of the first settlers, and the ANZACs etc had nothing to do with this important event.

I think Brendan was trying to appeal to evryone – those who didn’t want the apology, and those who did. He should have got some help with his speech I think – this was not the occasion for trying to be too clever. It was more about heartfelt feelings and a genuine desire to right past wrongs and improve the situation for Indigenous Australians.

Okay Kevin007 – add these groups to the Sorry list:

* All war veterans and their families.

* Everyone who died in the influenza epidemic of 1918.

* All the post-war immigrants who where housed in virtual prison camps upon arrival in Australia.

* The kids from the UK who came to Australia post war and where treated as slaves.

* People who were interned during the two world wars because they were either of Japanese or German decent.

* All fans of the Rabbitohs.

* Anyone who went to see a film with Nicole Kidman in it, thinking it’d be good.

* Victims of the HMAS Voyager tragedy.

* Anyone who caught HIV/AIDS through blood transfusions.

* Anyone who has lost their job/house/life because of Govt economic policy.

I speaka tha engish!

The institutionalised political racism exhibited buy the failure of the Teutonic Knight to apologise you your people deeply disturbs me west_kambah_4_eva.

So are we all australians now ?

No more abstudy, abwork, abthis and abthat ?

Senate Hansard will too, by the way.

Proof Hansard won’t be available till tomorrow (14Feb), but check here.
http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/hansreps.htm

AD – i noted that as well, and that it was actually keating who commissioned the stolen generation report in 95…

TEUTONIC KNIGHTS I TELLS YA!! APOLOGISE!!

as it happened keating and hawke turned up only ol’ bigot nuts howard wasn’t there.

Notice that the irrelevant bob bwown tried to change the kev07 statement in the senate only to be told to piss orf by all the others. He is so the ghey.

Sure I hate Labor. I hate the Liberals a lot more, though.

In fact, I have a lot of hate to give to the political world.

DMD, are you okay??? You’re obviously not one of the blinkered vision ‘true believers’ then. 🙂

The Human Rights report came out about a decade ago, (I think), when Howard was in power.

Gough made some great social changes, but he was a poor economic manager and the Balibo Five affair was blatantly unforgivable. There I said it.

I attempted to get into civic at 8:45, but me and my mate couldn’t get past that traffic. Thank god for Teevee.

Danman, the government is a a continuous body. It changes hands, but the responsibility for every government action remains and they must be atoned for and corrected when necessary, no matter who is in charge. This is where I believe Howard failed his duty as Prime Minister.

Whether you yourself want to feel sorry is purely up to you. I do myself, not personally, but as an Australian citizen. I was born in, raised in and continue to contribute and benefit from this society, so I feel it is partially my responsibility to say sorry to those this society has wronged so severely. But it’s always a personal choice, since this is (allegedly) a democracy.

Yeah, I guess it was do you agree with me or are you a jerk? I’m sorry 🙂

‘either/or’ as in if you answer yes, you have to agree with what I say?

The ‘what’s goes next’ part is what I have a problem with – suspect it will be more of the same or worse as kev07 supports the apartheid permit system.

oops!

1st ‘yes’ should be ‘no’ – I read it. Don’t watch telly at work.

So sorry.

Actually, the first question was kind of either/or barking toad 🙂

my answers to pierce’s questions –

Yes

Yes

Ok, it’s just the ill-informed stuff that keeps coming up that doesn’t address the fact that the apology is on behalf of past Parliaments and governments, not all Australians (even though Brendan Nelson actually seemed to do that anyway) and that it’s a gateway to compensation.

But mostly I guess it’s just me despairing at this artificial left/right enmity on this site, which seems to miss the point that we probably agree on more things than not.

I watched the speech – I retain my stance stated above with steely resolve….

One day you guys will wake up from your paranoid obsessive fear and hatred of these imaginary “reds under the bed” that you have concocted and realise that the world has left you far far behind.

Rather than dealing in vague assumptions, accusations and name-calling, why don’t you try working in facts for a little while.

Did you watch the speech or are you happy to avoid knowing what’s actually going on in this issue in case it conflicts with your world view? If you watched it, you’ll know that a big chunk was about what to do next.

(And if you did watch the speech, will you continue to bag the ACT government for giving employees time off to do so?)

This is interesting – a comment on the news.com page

“Maroochy Barambah, is an opera singer, songwoman of the Turrbal-Gubbi Gubbi people, and self-described beneficiary of the policy of removal. Her mother, a revered elder of Brisbane’s original inhabitants – the Turrbal people – has never met Mr Rudd, her local federal member since 1998. “She is one of the oldest Aboriginals in southeast Queensland and her home is only a few kilometres from his electorate office,” she said. That is very interesting Mr Rudd. It seems you have not had an interest in this topic before your rise to fame as PM. Very dissapointing behaviour, but predictable. This “sorry” business is all a show for the TV. You propaganda loving communist!!
Posted by: Go Queenslander of Mackay 8:48am today
Comment 23 of 85″

“Can you feel the smugness eminating from the parliamentary triangle?”

Yep, there’s a great cloud of it heading across the lake, or maybe it’s just a cloud of bullshit?

By the way, have Labor made sure this event is carbon neutral?

Careful, thumping one, don’t bait the hippies.

Nice of the mayor to give his workers time off to watch telly. A golden opportunity for any early openers.

Why didn’t he do it yesterday for the cricket?

Rudd just wanted to go down in history….

Well said Danman. I totally agree.

<<<<>>>>

Just so that you all know – The speech that I posted yesterday (in jest) was from the killer ABC Comedy – “The Games”

It was not real – It was an actor in a cynical comedy program – Just because the pictures are moving and the sound is coming out, doesn’t mean that it is real.

(Except when it’s the X-Files, or Buffy the Vampire Slayer – These, contrary to popular belief are documentries.)

OMG!!!

Is the circus over yet?

J-T-K oh dear what have you started not that I don’t have a sense of humour but…

I am all for moving on and making wrongs right, but how can we as Australian apoligise for something we had no part in ?

The only way I can be associated with the doings of the (fraser?) government of the day is that I am a whitefella.

It should be the government of the day apoligising, not a representitave of the current day government – especially when we the current voters played no part in it…

Also there are a lot of indigenous Australians claiming that the fact that they were part of the stolen generation actually IMPROVED their lifestyle and chances in life. Are we then going to give them compensation as well.

James-T-Kirk….where did you get Howard’s speech from?

Just watching the mob being welcomed in the PM’S courtyard. Its going to be a big day.

justonevoice may I suggest “thinking juice”.

I wasnt aware of the words in that speach by John howard but that is powerful and strong stuff. How is it this is overlooked as if it never happened and we focus on another apology. This paints JH in a different perspective that he really did care about our heritage and the pain we have inflicted on others.

Or, that any of them were stolen.

The lack of records also makes it very difficult to prove that the ‘stolen generation’ was Not stolen.

Oh, I don’t know Headbone, there seems to be plenty of folks in this thread questioning the merits and motivations of tomorrow’s apology.

There’s been a hell of a lot of talk of monetary compensation. Considering there are nearly no records of the era how is anyone going to prove (or more importantly, disprove) the claims?

I mean’t 30% of the people who contribute to this left wing, wanky website of which I am in the right wing minority and a beacon of common sense. Sorry EL.

re Howdy earlier today.

I’m a bit ambidextrous on all this.

As a small businessman, I provided a business service to a potential distant indigenous relative.

Guess what is mine is yours, what is yours you keep applies. Dunno if Kev will allow me to write it off though.

Wasn’t it 70%?

I am one of the 30% who don’t give a rat’s ass.

I am sorry for the mess that many Indigenous communities are in today. I am sorry for whatever part policies and actions of past governments contributed to this.

Most people who work in or with Indigenous communities are against the intervention.

It was all for show and a huge waste of money. For instance they spent 18 million, in order to restrict a township of 80 people from spending more than half their money on alcohol. They could have just given them one million to buy groceries for a year, they would have had more nutritious food (which was the stated aim of the policy) and we would have saved 17 million.

The sexual health checks for children were likewise for show. All children were given one sexual health check. No matter what this found, there was no funding for follow up. Again – the would have been better off spending a tenth of the money on just increasing the available healthcare options. But that wouldn’t have brought in any good headlines about ‘government intervention for Indigenous health’.

I think it would be better to go on Wednesday 20th, if I were you. There’ll be a lot less people and it’ll be more worthwhile.
No, I’m not sorry and I disassociate myself from Rudd’s apology. Not at any time will he be speaking for me. Cheeky f**kwit.
Sorry? What for?

Oh, and I heard an Indigenous ‘spokesman’ on the radio this afternoon – He was dead set against the intervention. Apparently their culture is fully capable of dealing with the rampant child abuse going on in remote communities.

I guess that begs the question: Why aren’t they doing something about it?

What I’m wondering at the moment is where Rudd plans on shoehorning the term WORKING FAMILIES into this apology.

moff – wha? I said that? Where?

hahahaha : )

love,
Howdy

@barking toad, he policies were implemented with the idea that aboriginals could not sustain themselves and therefore they needed to be assimilated into ‘mainstream’ society. How is that not based on race?

Well, if it quacks like an unladed swallow Thumper… 🙂

What is it with nerds and that quote? 🙂

Didn’t the Catholic Church apologise for the Spanish Inquisition only a few years ago?

Nobody expected that.

And I’m simply adding some necessary context to that.

Anyway – it was on telly, they that is much more reliable than the internet

wishuwell – Shhh – don’t let everybody know.

If Amerika can hire an actor as the head of government, why can’t we?

What toad conveniently forgot to mention was that the baby’s mother is in prison and it’s father has been living at the tent embassy (with the baby) for six weeks.

How dare DOCS remove the baby! Had to be for racial reasons only, didn’t it toad?

“The Games”

Moff: “The point he was making though, was that they don’t want cash or compo, they want services and support, not lump sum cash payouts to individuals.”

Who is this “they” you are talking about? Surely individuals will take their own cases to the courts for whatever they believe they can extract from the system.

Hopefully, we will end up with the Canadian system (I thought it was Canada) — Court cases for compo from indigenous population – – results in settlement. Declaration that now settlement has happened, there will be no further specialised programs, as the settlement has squared things forever.

That seems simpler for everybody – I suspect that “they” should be careful about how money is spent, it may have to last them quite a while…

And Thumper, Pearson is a conservative who’s against the apology.

Thumper : “Sorry is easy to say, but it’s ramifications could be far reaching, either good, or bad.”

Yep – but it will stop the bloody whiners. At least then, we can say that we said “sorry” to the “Stolen Generation ™”

Keep in mind though that the government has already said sorry to the Indigenous Peoples during the Olympic Games speech 9 Yep – That was Johnny!!) July 3, 2000:::

==========================

Good evening. My name is John Howard and I’m speaking to you from Sydney, Australia, host city of the year 2000 Olympic Games.

At this important time, and in an atmosphere of international goodwill and national pride, we here in Australia – all of us – would like to make a statement before all nations. Australia, like many countries in the new world, is intensely proud of what it has achieved in the past 200 years.

We are a vibrant and resourceful people. We share a freedom born in the abundance of nature, the richness of the earth, the bounty of the sea. We are the world’s biggest island. We have the world’s longest coastline. We have more animal species than any other country. Two thirds of the world’s birds are native to Australia. We are one of the few countries on earth with our own sky. We are a fabric woven of many colours and it is this that gives us our strength.

However, these achievements have come at great cost. We have been here for 200 years but before that, there was a people living here. For 40,000 years they lived in a perfect balance with the land. There were many Aboriginal nations, just as there were many Indian nations in North America and across Canada, as there were many Maori tribes in New Zealand and Incan and Mayan peoples in South America. These indigenous Australians lived in areas as different from one another as Scotland is from Ethiopia. They lived in an area the size of Western Europe. They did not even have a common language. Yet they had their own laws, their own beliefs, their own ways of understanding.

We destroyed this world. We often did not mean to do it. Our forebears, fighting to establish themselves in what they saw as a harsh environment, were creating a national economy. But the Aboriginal world was decimated. A pattern of disease and dispossession was established. Alcohol was introduced. Social and racial differences were allowed to become fault-lines. Aboriginal families were broken up. Sadly, Aboriginal health and education are responsibilities we have still yet to address successfully.

I speak for all Australians in expressing a profound sorrow to the Aboriginal people. I am sorry. We are sorry. Let the world know and understand, that it is with this sorrow, that we as a nation will grow and seek a better, a fairer and a wiser future. Thank you.

========================

The last bit looked like he said “I am sorry, We are sorry” – Actually, in reflection he was also talking about “Breaking up families..”

The point he was making though, was that they don’t want cash or compo, they want services and support, not lump sum cash payouts to individuals.

Howdy:
“If you have an issue with the symbolism of making an apology or even the compensation claims that may follow”

One of the guys involved in wording the speech has said that the ceremony hasnothing to do with money. The Aborignal representatives have said that money and compensation is the last thing on thier minds as it doesn’t solve anything. They want new anti-discrimination legislation more than anything.

Didn’t the Catholic Church apologise for the Spanish Inquisition only a few years ago?

I think that Kevin07 should also say sorry to New Zealanders for all the trauma caused when those Chappell bastards decided to bowl underarm.

Damn Teutonic Knights! Apologise you savages!

I’m still waiting for a ‘sorry’ from the Teutonic Knights for their savage conquering and forced de-culturalisation of Baltic Prussia in the 1300s, which had an massive effect on my family and their Indigenous cultural rights!!! WHERE IS MY SORRY??

Oh, so there is a cut off year? When is that exactly? Sooooo, 50-100 years ago is ok, but 700 years is not. Gotcha. So can you tell me exactly when its not ok to complain anymore? 101 years ago? 150? 200?

As a child I once lived next door to an Aboriginal family with two beautiful children under the age of ten. They had very little but they were always kind and shared what they had. We once accidentally thought a gift left at our door was for us (no names on it) but realised later that it wasn’t. They knew but never said anything.

Whist you think about problem communities also consider that there are Aboriginal people also living in suburbia who have been affected. Lovely people who aren’t after your money, who are willing to share what little they have (sharing being a great aspect of Aboriginal culture as well) and make the best of their situation. We are also saying sorry to these people…

Of course the bleeding-hearts in here would have as think the whole nation is not sleeping at night waiting for Sorry-day – kids are going to be ‘made’ to watch Kevin07 do the deed, SBS is showing indigenous programming, large TV screens in public spaces ala-Sydney Olympics style. Yep, it’s turning into a circus.

But if you look at the polls on the web from the radio, TV and newspaper sites re the sorry debate it is running around 70%-30%. That being 70% don’t give a rat’s ass.

Actually, the baby removed yesterday was only 6 weeks old, not 3 months.

Strangely, DmD, your assertion that removal of children because of race isn’t supported by the official enquiries.

Like the 3 month old baby removed from the tent ’embassy’ yesterday. Not a racist decision.

I’m sorry.

I will be there with my preschooler to witness one of the most important events in my country’s history in my lifetime.

You all really don’t get it, though. It’s not a quick-fix, it’s not the solution to all the problems in the indigenous community. It’s about adjusting the attitude of our government and the society it represents towards the issues surrounding the indigenous community.

What happened with the stolen generations was wrong. The government needs to acknowledge and convey meaningfully that it was wrong, so the relationship between the gov. and the indigenous community is repaired and the two bodies can work together without this issue between them.

Bloody simple, really.

Frankly the blacks living in isolated little outback communities will not be any better off. the grog, the sniffing, the paedophilia will continue to happen.

Best thing for these blacks is to force them off their reservations and integrate them in to mainstream Islamic communities.

From Chris Graham’s (editor of the National Indigenous Times) excellent piece in Crikey on Feb 1, Mythbusters: ten sorry excuses exploded:

Saying sorry won’t deliver better results in health, housing or education.
Here’s a surprising revelation for you — saying sorry is not supposed to deliver health, housing and education. Equally, saying sorry won’t prevent governments from delivering health, housing and education. This particular objection is perhaps the dumbest of them all and is run by conservatives like Warren Mundine, Noel Pearson and The Australian. Its fundamental flaw is that it relies on the premise that Australia is so backward as a nation we can’t deliver practical outcomes while simultaneously delivering symbolic gestures. In other words, we can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.

Id like to head along for a look on such an historic occasion of great significance.

Not sure what Im sorry about but Im keen to find out.

So what are your ideas for helping them to help themselves, and improving the situation for everyone?

maybe kev will say sorry for the parking at the same time! It will be just as much of a waste of time. Not going to solve anything, we’ve pumped hundreds of millions into helping aboriginal people, the major hurdle is still that a large number of them are not willing to help themselves.

Sitting here waiting for someone to come and say the white fella was the cause of the problem, well 100% so.. but realistically not uncommon of the time, and the likelyhood of Australia still being a large island with primative aboriginal life today.. zero.

Intervention was needed in a lot of cases then and still is now. Yes many were abused, a lot of kids still are today.

Am I sorry personally? Nope.
Symbolic sorryism isn’t going to help anything, someone kick kevin in the head while he’s on his knees begging for forgivness and tell him to get on with doing something useful (yet to see anything yet).

Barking Toad…the line is so f-king simple, I can’t believe you can’t see it. Ralph, you’re just a twat.

Aboriginal children were removed from their parents on the basis of RACE, not conditions, which is the only basis upon which the gov. should intervene (and I’m not talking ‘send in the army’). It was a RACIST thing to do. If we are to advance as a society, we must accept the wrongs of the past, so they are not repeated in the future.

And Crikey, it’s the British who should apologize to us, actually. If anyone cared, that is.

Wednesday morning is going to be Parking Madness in the Parly Triangle.

I feel bad for those that were taken from tyheir families by the authorities for any reason, include in this the stolen Gen, Bernardo’s boys and generations of Aust. kiddies taken from their single, teenage mothers by the church shortly after their birth in the mid 20th cent.

I’m not sure compensation can be granted through the court in the case of Aborigines as, in my understanding, compensations is to return you to the economic state you were in before the ‘íncident’occured to you. If this is the case, what are we going to do, let them win their case and take their house, car etc… away?

Bette rthe money go into counselling etc.. than just handing out shed-loads of cash.

Also, Rudd will apologise in Parliament where he and the Geov’t are protected from court action. I doubt he’ll repeat the speech outside the Chamber.

A large group of Australians feels wronged by past government actions, and would like an apology. A large proportion of other australians support them in this. So why argue with it?

If descendants of convicts were really upset to this day about how their families were treated, and felt that it impacted on their lives right now, and they formed a movement, then perhaps the govt would apologise. But noone is asking them to, because noone is actually upset or suffering.

And it’s truly sickening what is currently going on in some of the other, less public relations friendly ‘communities’, howdy. BT has a point.

It is the only solution though. Not doing your research properly before throwing money at a ‘fix’ is essentially just a waste of money.

The communities that are doing the best are the ones that have managed to get together and rebuild a sense of pride and ownership over their culture and are educating their children in who they are and where they came from.

I’d also like to see an apology given to whites who were also focibly removed from their families at the same time.

Or the kids who were raised in an Aboriginal family (who were white) from the 1970’s onwards and who were abused by their ‘carers’ or step-parents etc.

So where do I line up?

Very noble thought, getting to the cause rather than the after effect.

That hasn’t happened despite the posturing of the aboriginal industry over the years. Meanwhile, the tragedy of the after effects continue unabated.

And don’t call Aboriginal people or people who live differently under their own laws and traditions ‘noble savages’.

It’s what shows your lack of knowledge about culture.

And the way of thinking you should be promoting is to work with aboriginal communities in a way that is consistent with their culture and belief systems, not ours.

If you’re going to put money towards the problem it needs to go towards a solution that suits them, not one based on what we think would suit us in such situations.
And it needs to help them rebuild community and culture rather than just providing a bit of infrastructure or heavy handed law enforcement. Get to the cause rather than fix up the after affects…

toad – perhaps if you read my earlier comment to you as well – I was saying that your way of thinking is what caused these problems in the first place and the solution is to change this way of thinking.

You seem to care but you are promoting the cause of the problem…

What howdy?

Stop being concerned about children, including infants, in aboriginal communities who are subject to violence, sexual abuse, neglect and exposure to drugs, alcohol and petrol sniffing by adults in those dysfunctional communities?

Aren’t they entitled to be afforded the protection of Australian law?

Or do you subscribe to the view that they are a race better left alone, the ‘noble savage’ concept.

toad – You want to address problems in Aboriginal communities? Change the way you think for a start.

What would a racial reason for stealing children be?

Ingee, Victoria’s Stolen Generations Taskforce couldn’t come up with anyone actually stolen for racial reasons and concluded that in Victoria there was no formal policy for removing children.

Perhaps we should be celebrating the rescued generations rather than wallowing in self pity and guilt foisted on us by activists and appeasers whose aim is to line pockets with more government welfare in the form of ‘compensation’ instead of addressing the problems in the aboriginal communities.

So Howard’s ‘sorry’ he cant come ?

Thumper, I never expected Howard to turn up. My subtle dig towards him was not in reference to him not being present, but rather that he did not have the required compassion or empathy to appreciate and then commit to an apology. “Sorry” if that was too subtle for you. I’ll make my point a little clearer for you next time.

As Crikey said, at least Howard is not jumping on the bandwagon. But then again, how could he! Haha!

I know the apology is largely symbolic in its duty, but I don’t think that lessens its importance.

It would be a tad hypocritical for Mr Howard to turn up as he was always against giving an apology. I admire him for the fact, unlike other Liberal and Labor politicians; he’s not going to now jump on the sorry-bandwagon

Gee it must feel nice to be one of the families that lovingly took these kids in and gave them all they could…..

When is Rudd going to apologise to all the descendants of the convicts who were forcibly ripped away from their families, many for petty crimes, and sent for the time of their natural life to Australia never to see their loved ones again.

They are not coming, just like Bob Hawke and Paul Keating…

I don’t recall public/government debate on this issue occuring during the Prime Ministerships of either men, therefore the ability to criticise and subsequent comment about their handling of the topic as PM of Australia is merely speculation. With Howard, there was no room left for misinterpretation.

You may recall Beazley was leader of the opposition at the time the Bringing them home report was presented to Parliament. His views on a national apology, like Howard’s, were very clear, if a little stark in contrast.

Whant to give any references for these “official inquiries” BT.

Fraser’s latching onto the cause is sufficient in itself to doubt it’s worth.

Ingee, the hearsay evidence of ‘racially motivated’ removal has not received any support from any official enquiry.

Obviously that should be “Fraser”, apologies Malcolm!

I suspect Malcolm Frazer may be there too.

Apparently he claims to have some “prior commitment” and wont be there. Who cares, the guys a loser with nothing of worth to contribute.

Does anyone know where John and Jeanette will be sitting?

The old clogged courts myth again. There are processes in civil law that the courts use to determine wether or not a plaintiff has a case – if a case gets to court it’s just as legitimate as any other and is simply part of the work load. Of greater interest might be whether or not the Commonwealths “model litigant” guidelines will prevail.

The BTH report actually recommended creation of a fund, along the lines of Tasmania’s policy, with claims by individuals capped at a given value, rather than have the courts further clogged with lawyers and have claimaints pay legal costs.

But actual compensation has been ruled out by current apology policy, and instead refers to possibilitys for support of counselling with parents\communities or otherwise, and coordinated reconnection of children to parents.

BTW, I am not a spokesman for nor in the pay of Reconciliation Australia, and there are bits of this process that I don’t like.

Mael, I’m the son of migrants too, but that doesn’t stop me from understanding that the long overdue apology by the government recognising the inappropriateness of racially motivated actions does not apportion blame to you or me, and nor does it imply that you or I have something to apologise for.

It’s interesting though that the media frenzy has focussed exclusively on the giving of the apology by the Prime Minister and focussed very little on whether or not Aboriginal people will accept the apology.

Ingee, I would argue that the Government is already sucked into ‘compensation funds’ up to it’s neck already. Until all Australians are treated equally, in all aspects, there is a disparity.

As one of the ‘migrant generation’ (born in Australia to migrant parents), I have no affiliation to the government of the day that imposed the rules, nor to the ‘stolen generation’.

Insofar as how that concerns me, and about 8 million other Australians, is subject to how I feel about the situation, not from any prior involvement.

I am highly skewed in my opinion by the amount of taxes I pay, and the comparison of return I get for my mighty dollah, compared to that of my native friends.

They are welcome to return to their pre-sailboat way of life, as long as they don’t expect Telstra to put a phone line out to them.

Too right BT. Myths like “It was done to protect the Children”, “They were better off being taken away” and “Their parents weren’t able to look after them properly”.

I’m sorry that the local mayor has now jumped on the bandwagon, suffering from relevance deprivation.

And, in line with his socialistic views, thinks there should be compensation.

No doubt Louise O’Donoghue will be lining up for some moola as part of the ‘stolen generation’ notwithstanding the fact that she previously fessed up that she wasn’t really stolen, her father handed her in for care because he didn’t want to look after her.

The myths continue while the hand is extended for the cash.

A representative from the Tent Embassy said on ABC radio this morning that he was planning to seek compensation and to have his family lands restored to him even though the government is not offering it. He did the cause no favours

I certainly hope that the Government dosn’t get sucked into some sort of “compensation fund”. Instead they should commit to fully exposing the crown to whatever litigation is brought by agrieved parties or the estates of agrieved parties. Anything that restricts the ability of these people too seek complete redress in the courts is little more than tokenism.

Agree.

Part of the problem is that people think that western outcomes can be achieved while maintaining tribal culture – noble savages and all.

Doesn’t happen.

And this $orry business is just going to perpetuate the culture of welfare and white man suppression.

toad –
Your solutions and way of thinking are what caused the problems you speak of in the first place.

The failure to understand the way Aboriginal people function and the belief that things are better for them if they only lived like you – that’s the problem, right from the beginning.

Their culture is very different from your own and if you wish to help you might think about understanding and restoring what was taken away, rather than trying to fix things using the same methods that destroyed their communities to begin with.

And as far as ‘education’ goes as a reason to take kids away from their families… Congratulations, you’ve managed to help destroy knowledge of their own culture in place of your own.

Yeah ‘tool’ is the first word that came to my mind too.

Barking Toad is a tool doo daa doo daa!
I can be as immature as the Toad is doo daa doo daa!

On another thought about saying sorry:

Someone tells you a family member of theirs/someone that you don’t know has died…you say, mean and feel “SORRY”. You’re not guilty, your not culpable and your not a tool. You’re aware, sympathetic and concerned. And you’ve acknowledged the occurrence of an event that you wish did not occur.

I’m SORRY.

When I read through “Bringing Them Home”, I became immensely sad and regretful that these terrible things had been done. There were many reasons underlying various policies, and they ranged between the understandable and eminently sensible (removal of a child at risk would have happened in some cases regardless of race) through the semi-reasonable (to maximise the prospects for a given child beyond those the family could provide) to the frankly scary-mad. To apologise now is to do no more than accept that any treatment of indigenous people that was not, or would not have been, equally accorded to indigenous and other Australians was wrong and that it did damage.

And other errors of the Europeans should not be forgotten, any more than any overreactions by the indigenous people or the error in attributing all blame to Europeans. Our governments were all less aware then than we are now, and the knowledge we now have gives us no choice about doing the right thing from this point forward.

Individuals have their individual legal rights to sue, subject to issues of limitation period, forum and evidence. But where what happened did so because of laws across the nation that were based and administered on an unequal treatement based on race, there is a national obligation to apologise.

An apology is necessary, but in some cases, it may not be sufficient. The next challenge is to learn how to make up for what was lost by individuals and the indigenous community at large. That may not be best served by throwing large lumps of compensation at the few who can establish a claim to the satisfaction of a court, any more than paying damages to those injured helps to prevent injuries. Some may argue that any special indigenous program represents an instalment of an overall compoensation package, distributed to a whole community.

Thats nice.
This Apology isn’t actually on your behalf as an individual private citizen, just the current Australian Government apologizing to those affected on behalf of the previous governments and their policies.

(Just as even though governments of the day apologised for discriminating treatment of Vietnam veterans, private citizens are able and continue to have opinions on Vietnam veterans)

The “stolen generation” to which the apology applies is not to be confused with other governmental policies which were to help Aboriginal children from remote areas go to school with full parental consent.
It should also not be confused with the removal of Indigenous and non-Indigenous children from dysfunctional families under welfare policies (that continue to apply today).

The 1997 Bringing Them Home and other reports (names of which I forget) have identified that between the period of the mid 1800s through to the 1970s somewhere between 10% and 30% of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders were removed under legislated programs, but the exact numbers for whom the Apology applies is unknown due to inaccurate and poor record keeping even by the standards of the period.

Anyway, back to work for me.

What barking toad said.

I’m not sorry either.

People on the ground were descriminating on their own definitions of “whites” and “whiteness”

For the purposes of Stolen Generations and removals from families, it wasn’t a matter of even needing to prove or allege neglect from indigenous parents, it was a matter of being visibly mixed-race, so that the lighter children from the same family and parents would be removed, while the darker ones would be left behind.

Amongst those forcibly removed and willing to provide testimony to the original Inquiry put into institutions, the rates of abuse are as high as 1 in 6 for physical abuse and 1 in 10 for sexual abuse, and those who were adopted\fostered weren’t actually any better off, with 1 in 4 reporting physical abuse and 1 in 5 being sexually abused.

Institutionalised and adopted\fostered “whites” didn’t have rates of abuse that high in a similar timeframe.

There’s always some tool who just dosn’t get it.

Don’t submit an apology on my behalf kev.

No need to apologise for a policy of removing aboriginal children (or any children) from circumstances where they were lacking food, shelter, basic care, education and, at times in danger of physical harm.

Instead, apologise for not continuing the policy today. Now common sense and humanity has been sacrificed for political correctness and children are left in communities to be raped, beaten, neglected and exposed to drugs, alcohol and petrol sniffing by a permit system of apartheid that condemns indigenous children to to live the life of the ‘noble savage’.

Of kev’s 100 ‘stolen’ representatives, how many can show they were stolen for being aboriginal? How many were actually removed because they were in circumstances of neglect? Or their parents gave them up because they couldn’t look after them or just wanted them to get an education and a chance in life?

The myth of the ‘stolen generations’ is no better exposed than by the the story of Ms Cubillo, the ABC’s ‘stolen’ mouthpiece, who was actually found abandoned and place in care.

Unfortunately, kev07 is perpetuating the myth and inviting more dependence on welfare through compensation claims.

Re: logistics for Wednesday, see here how much of a headache its going to be for the ACT Govt.

Personal advice: If you work in Parkes, don’t expect an easy carpark on Wednesday.

Skidbladnir – Thanks for posting, much better than my useless monday morning generalising rants… bleh : P

Full text of Bringing Them Home is available here:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/

For those who want a bit of extra homework before Wednesday.

(given that these lecturers wouldn’t tell people to had over their newborns : P That was more so my analogy – and it’s ‘some crap about handing over new born sons’ is it? – well it’s not crap when it actually happens…)

I second Thumper’s statement.

As indentified by the HR&EOC in Bringing Them Home, the experience of being forcibly removed from their homes and placed into an institutional environment was identified as a form of specific trauma and major cause of grief and guilt amongst those targetted by these policies.
There were abuses both in policy and of power which further isolated individuals and reinforced their feelings of grief, confusion, and perceptions of guilt.

The first step in healing these traumas is the honest delivery of and reciprocal acceptance of an apology.
It is the responsibility of the Australian Government, on behalf of previous Australian governments that administered this wrongful policy to acknowledge what was done and apologise for it.

This is only the first step as recommended in Appendix 9, Sections 3 component (1), and 5a components (1) and (2), of Bringing Them Home.

Now all we need are for the other 54 Sections of the Recommendations to be looked into for actual policy support.

Sorry Thumper, I wasn’t actually answering your question : P
Crikey actually said the word ‘greater’ anyway which implies instilling a sense of pride rather than directly fixing anything.

To answer your question I would say that the apology is not intended as a ‘fix’ to the worlds problems but it is a step in the RIGHT direction.

Because it is a gesture that will acknowledge that Australians give a ‘sh*t’ my anger is directed at the racism I see hiding behind those in the media feeding the argument that we shouldn’t appologise because it wont ‘fix’ anything.

I don’t really see that in any of these comments but it’s something I still feel passionate about and put in my two cents, having had some excellent lecturers at university for indigenous & cultural studies.

I believe all the networks are going to show it, but Sky and ABC1 will probably have the better coverage.

I’d suggest getting there early. Parking in the public carpark will be hard, as it is a sitting day, and it usually fills up very quickly. If you do park in the public carrpark, don’t park in a bus/loading zone/disabled park, as parking inspectors do come down (usually only when it’s busy) and will book you. Parking in a 3hrs park is fine even if you’re there more than 3hrs. I believe the House will be opening the front doors to the public at 8am.

There may be some room still in the galleries. If you call 6277 7111, that will put you through to the switchboard. Ask for the House of Reps ticket service and they should put you through. Tickets are free, although by now, there proabaly all gone. Other than that, there’s the Great Hall, and Federation Mall. Security will be tight on entry to both the main entry, and even tighter to the galleries, so don’t bring anything that probably won’t be allowed.

It’s a symbolic event.

The symbolic event of NOT appologising was a racist and backwards stance that reinforced the divide between white and Aboriginal Australia.

If you have an issue with the symbolism of making an apology or even the compensation claims that may follow I suggest you be forced to hand your first male newborn straight over to a childless Asian couple. And don’t expect any acknowledgment for any ‘petty’ grief this may ‘inconvenience’ you with either…

Hopefully this is a turning point, but I seriously doubt that saying sorry will do anything but create further problems.

In reality, it will be no different. The problems Aborigines face will still be there on Thursday.

Australia will be a much greater place on Thursday.

With all the hoohaa about saying sorry, I hope this is a turning point for Aborigines.

(Although the apology will be nice, it will be interesting to see if it materially impacts the problems faced by Aboriginal Australia).

The live video broadcasts start at 0900hrs on SKY, and also on ABC1 (radio broadcast on TripleJ), communal bigscreens in the Great Hall or also on the lawns outside Parliament House.

If you’re stuck behind a computer and have a wide pipe, the video will alo be broadcast through: http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/default.aspx?eventDate=13/02/2008&eventtype=

(Free BBQ on the Federation Mall from 1130hrs for everybody who wants it)

Well the appology is set to begin shortly after 9am. So make sure u get there before 9am and bring your picnic rug along and u can watch the proceedings on the big screen on the lawns, as inside can only accomodate not so many as expected to turn up.

It will also be broadcasted on ABC Television.