Why not cover teeth?

Diggety said :

Jim Jones said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

So we should axe medicare and let everyone fend for themselves then?

After all, poor people are only poor because of lack of personal responsibility. And rich people are only rich because of their awesome personal responsibility skills!!!

Reductio ad absurdum

Lol. Given that the original ‘argument’ consisted of ‘herp derp personal responsibility’ I don’t think that swinging around logical fallacies is gonna help much.

Actually looking at that data presented by Tetranite I don’t think you can come to any conclusion about the different health systems.
The USA is obviously disfunctional but when you look at the % cost of GDP spent on healtcare compared to the % cost that comes from public expenditure, there is no link between them for the countries presented. It’s too simplistic a measure.
You would obviously also need to look at health outcomes to see the effectiveness of each country’s program.

2604 said :

HenryBG said :

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

er, but here in the real world, universal socialised medicine is half the price of the american approach.

You *do* realise that, don’t you?

The scary thing is that misinformed idiots like 2604 actually have the vote, and they use it to keep the Liberal Party in the running.

2604 said :

Also, the government socialising or subsidising anything is a sure-fire way to increase how much it costs.

Yeah, except for healthcare – as the american system *proves* with its doubled costs as compared with the socialised British system.

2604 said :

HenryBG said :

…

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

You’re the one who needs your head examined.
See my prior post, of particular note:
http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_33929_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html
As a percentage of GDP, total health spending in the US in 2009 was 17.4%
The ‘socialist’ UK with a comprehensive single payer system? 9.8%
When it’s put in PPP $ it’s actually more than double the OECD average.

2604 said :

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

Erm, have you seen what the US taxpayer pays for their rooted system????

HenryBG said :

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

Anyone who thinks that universal, socialised medicine will cost less overall than user-pays medicine purchased in a competitive market whilst resulting in the same quality of outcome needs to have his head examined. At own expense, I hasten to add.

An annual checkup and clean costs about $200 at my local (rip-off) dentist. It beggars belief that 44% of Canberrans can’t set aside less than four bucks a week to look after their own teeth.

Also, the government socialising or subsidising anything is a sure-fire way to increase how much it costs. Anyone for a $700 set-top box?

They need to up the number of dentistry placements at uni and/or increase numbers of overseas trained dentists to allow more competition and lowering of fees. I am sorry but how can 10-15 minutes of a dentist’s time for a non-complex check up and clean cost me $150. There could also be bulk billed dental hygienists who can do cleaning and instruct people on proper dental/gum hygiene avoiding unecessary visits to the dentist. Alternatively, why doesnt the government subsidise or lower hecs or provide scholarships to students who in return agree to work as a salaried dentist in a public health sector for x number of years. No dentist would be otherwise compelled to work in the public system when they have a licence to print money in private.

“moral pygmies” – love it. going to try and use that in a few sentences tomorrow!

HenryBG said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

That’s not an evidence-based response.

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

There is no reason to separate dental care from other forms of healthcare.

Absolutely – the Americans pay, as a proportion of GDP and in PPP adjusted $ about twice as much as the rest of the OECD (give or take, depending on which measure, which year – but it’s basically 2x) – they essentially pay twice, and have worse outcomes (eg: infant mortality) to boot.
(http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_33929_2085200_1_1_1_1,00.html)

Of course plenty of the reactionary morons they have over there are A-okay with that – they don’t really care that they’re being ripped off as long as there is someone worse off to them to sneer at.
You can see the same mentality with some of the posters here.

Jim Jones said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

So we should axe medicare and let everyone fend for themselves then?

After all, poor people are only poor because of lack of personal responsibility. And rich people are only rich because of their awesome personal responsibility skills!!!

Reductio ad absurdum

HenryBG said :

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

That’s not an evidence-based response.

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

There is no reason to separate dental care from other forms of healthcare.

‘British Smile’ didn’t enter the urban dictionary for no reason, Henry:

. British Smile

any smile exhibiting bad teeth, characterized by poor orthodontia, caries, and other dental maladies stereotypically associated with the British, but actually observed in all peoples globally.

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

I used to work with an ex private school rugby boy. Dunno if he was a martial artist, but he was certainly a complete tosser, just as you appear to be.

Threatening to kick peoples teeth in on an anonymous website is patently absurd and just makes you look dim, despite your splendid teeth. Around here, you can claim, as I do, to have super powers such as the ability to see peoples farts floating in the air. Unfortunately for you, your claims to martial or other capabilities are no more credible than mine. 😉

Anyway, back to the OP…I reckon it’s a great idea. I have friends who are medical specialists, and they both tell me that the contribution of bad teeth to general ill health is huge. I’ve always wondered why dental care isn’t included under Medicare. Was it the influence of the dental lobby at the time that Medicare was introduced? Whatever the case, it makes as much sense as excluding any other random part of the body. Perhaps we should also exclude all the embarrassing bits like penises, anuses, colons etc…:-)

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

I have good teeth and look after them well also but what the heck is ‘breading’? I also have a few years of muay thai training. You seen quite confident in your ability but being quite a few years younger that you, I dare say I have the advantage and it is you that will require the dental work my friend. Perhaps we might be evenly matched who knows – I certainly won’t back down from you.

I really wonder if you learnt your ‘kickboxing’ in a boxfit class though, because if you had some proficiency in it you would realize that violence doesn’t solve first world problems and you would naturally avoid fighting. It sounds like you love to throw your weight around.

So tough guy, sure I over-reacted with the dick**** thing but some people eat really healthy and look after their teeth – but still have a lot of dental problems. Some of those people may have low paying jobs and cannot afford dental work. It was really heartless of you to say what you did – that is why I reacted strongly. I will gladly pay tax to subsidize dental work for people who cannot afford it.

I read an article recently which quoted the American Dentists Association (or like) which noted that there seems, over the last 30 years, to be a general increase dental disease in more affluent countries.

One of the things that they put it down to was the use of bottled or filtered water, which is defeating the fluroidated water supply. Mind you, this was just one of the reasons given.

It got me thinking, I grew up in a non-flouridated city yet Mum made all us kids take a flouride supplement tablet every morning.

Neither me nor any of my siblings (all in our 40’s) have any fillings at all.

Back on topic – My opinion is that two general preventative visits (check ups and clean) should be free twice a year and everything else should be subsidised or fully covered (subject to a means test) under Medicare or a similar scheme.

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

So we should axe medicare and let everyone fend for themselves then?

After all, poor people are only poor because of lack of personal responsibility. And rich people are only rich because of their awesome personal responsibility skills!!!

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

That’s not an evidence-based response.

The appalling american system of healthcare is ample demonstration that healthcare is unsuited to a market-based system and the British NHS demonstrates that socialised medicine is the cheapest (at half the cost of the american system) and most effective way of delivering healthcare, even if you don’t care about the vastly superior social justice impact of the latter.

There is no reason to separate dental care from other forms of healthcare.

Diggety said :

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

Which is a tad ironic if they were raised on Coke (I have seen toddlers having this poured into baby bottles) and crappy food and already had dental problems as a child. Hardly their fault for having the wrong parents.

No, people just need to wean themselves off their mum’s tit and take some personal responsibility.

Alderney said :

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring …..

So at what age did you grow up and get a real job?

Jim Jones said :

HenryBG said :

I’ve helped on Greens’ stalls collecting petition signatures supporting this initiative and can say that almost everyone I spoke with signed up. It has almost universal support.

I’m at a loss to see how anyone could be against this proposal.

The public being overwhelmingly against junkies doesn’t stop junkies from doing what they do.

A bit like the pokies: the public is overwhelmingly against them, but the pollies for some reason refuse to do anything about them.

If the public is overwhelmingly against them, why won’t it just stop putting money into the evil things?

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

I was a top SAS gunman and superfighting all-star for 20 straight years. I won all the medals offered by the Australian Armed Forces and then they made a special one just for me because of outstanding awesomeness and even once I beat a whole huge gang of terrorists just with a pocket-knife.

I’ve also got numerous degrees in the field of rocket-surgery and once I flew a megarocket to the outer rings of Saturn and collected samples that conclusively proved that aliens exist and are totally kick-ass but the government hushed it up because they knew that everyone would freak out and also on the way home I totally blew up an asteroid that was heading for Earth and would have killed everyone but they never told anyone because I didn’t want all the attention.

I’ve also done male modelling but had to quit because seeing pictures of me would have turned lots of hot girls boyfriends gay and I already get hassled enough by hot girls who want to kiss me and I’m too busy being on the cutting edge of ninja training and hanging out secretly with celebrities.

I don’t brush my teeth. I don’t need to. Having to brush teeth is a type of weakness to me. I laugh at people who have to brush their teeth – they need to be tougher and harder and then they stand a small chance of defeating their bodily weaknesses live I have.

Alderney said :

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

Oooh. Looks like the jury’s decision is in:

Vindictive asshole with a strong dash of moral pygmy and a big side serve of internet tough-guy!

Alderney said :

poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

My poor dietary decisions usually involve breading…and then deep frying.

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Fortunately for me then I lucked in. I went through an 18 year career as an A-Grade Rugby League player and 5 years in the kickboxing ring without losing a tooth. This is because I spent hundred’s of dollars on good mouthguards, not the crap you buy at a chemist.

I also don’t have a filling at 43 years of age. I have however had gum problems that I paid to remedy and pay attention regarding my dental health.

My wife also, at nearly 40, does not have any fillings.

You however obviously lucked out and have some sense of entitlement that others owe you for your poor dietery decisions and/or breading.

I can also resort to debate without lowering myself to terms of abuse, but if you’d like me to kick your teeth in so you can get your free treatment it should only take me a minute, or two if you know how to fight.

ooh, provocative. ok, i’ll bite…

matt31221 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

Yeah, but is he a moral pygmy or a vindictive asshole? That’s what I wanna know.

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

JB did warn the reader about d***heads like you. Just because you brush your teeth and eat healthy food doesn’t mean you’re not going to get dental problems and vice versa. Genetics is a factor in it as well.

sarahsarah said :

Dental care IS expensive – having just recently had braces I can certainly testify to this! Surely basic check-ups every year should be covered at least?

Having the Greens suggest something that isn’t monumentally stupid is a shock to the senses.

The Hawke and Keating governments in the 1980s and early ’90s had the Commonwealth Dental Scheme which provided free dental care for low income earners and welfare recipients. I had major work done over several visits during 1989.

When John Howard came to office he abolished it saying it was a state responsibility. A few cash-strapped state governments brought in Claytons schemes with expensive co-payments and long waiting lists. Some didn’t even bother.

The last time I went to the Phillip Health Centre for an emergency (in 2006) I was told that I would have to make a booking four weeks ahead (yes, for an emergency) and that I would have to pay. I didn’t make a booking and went home in pain. I phoned a private dentist and was told that I would have to pay over $400.00, money I could not afford. I haven’t been to the dentist since.

HenryBG said :

I’ve helped on Greens’ stalls collecting petition signatures supporting this initiative and can say that almost everyone I spoke with signed up. It has almost universal support.

I’m at a loss to see how anyone could be against this proposal.

A bit like the pokies: the public is overwhelmingly against them, but the pollies for some reason refuse to do anything about them.

If the public is overwhelmingly against them, why won’t it just stop putting money into the evil things?

veronicamars said :

Because there is a clear link between dental health and general health.

Ramsess II, the greatest, most celebrated, and most powerful pharaoh of the Egyptian Empire, who lived well into his 90s, and was said to have sired almost 100 children, died of poor dental hygiene.

I’ve helped on Greens’ stalls collecting petition signatures supporting this initiative and can say that almost everyone I spoke with signed up. It has almost universal support.

I’m at a loss to see how anyone could be against this proposal.

A bit like the pokies: the public is overwhelmingly against them, but the pollies for some reason refuse to do anything about them.

Really bad teeth are probably one of the major indicators that a person is from a lower socio-economic group (along with smoking, perhaps?). It is unfair that people can’t afford to have dental care and it must be socially limiting as well as having all sorts of health effects. I wonder where they’d draw the line on funding under this proposal? I can’t help but notice that at my daughter’s school, in some year groups, most of the girls seem to be wearing braces, for (eventual) cosmetic reasons, I assume. The other day I saw a boy with teeth that *really* stuck out and it was difficult not to look at them; will some cosmetic dentistry/orthodontic services be covered?

There are some ACT Government dental services already for children and pensioners, and Medicare does cover certain chronic problems to a limited degree:
http://health.act.gov.au/health-services/a-z-health-services/dental-health

As long as its well designed and only covers necessary dental care then why not?

So many other health problems come from dental problems that this will surely save large amounts of money elsewhere.

Alderney said :

“Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?”

Because there is a clear link between dental health and general health. We have Medicare for our general health care and dental care IS part of health care. Dental care should be covered too. These two articles discuss the link between dental health and medical conditions.

http://www.everydayhealth.com/dental-health/oral-conditions/oral-health-and-other-diseases.aspx

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dental/DE00001/NSECTIONGROUP=2

Alderney said :

Jim Jones said :

john87_no1 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

The same reasons my tax dollars get spent on lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private schools – personal wealth *shouldn’t* dictate distribution and accessibility of Govt funding/services.

+1

And all that aside. Even people who look after their teeth carefully need to visit the dentist sometimes.

Now, what was the last paragraph in the OP again?

But I don’t use your teeth, and the services on the Lower North Shore of Sydney, or anywhere for that matter, are available for the use of all.

Moreover, parents who send their children to private schools pay taxes for the upkeep of the public eduction system too.

One could argue until the cows come home about for what we contribute and what one uses.

My taxes contribute to lots of things I do not use and I dare say yours do too, so don’t play the cherry-picker with me.

My point is, that personal responsability has to come into it at some stage. If you want me to pay for your teeth, you can hold up your end of the bargin by doing your best to keep them healthy.

A further point is those on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder are in effect net taxation consumers whereas most on the upper end are net taxation contributors.

Think about that next time you stick your hand out of something.

Oh god please not another ‘my tax dollars’ rah rah rah ‘personal responsibility’ thing.

Just kill me before all the stupid rots my brain.

Excellent proposal, long overdue.

quote comment=”403387″]This has always puzzled me.

Dental health is just as important as, well, any other health.

Denticare sounds eminently reasonable and sensible.

However, we have the ‘must be in surplus’ (TM) budget coming up so it won’t happen.

Indeed Thumper. And as this article on The Conversation today shows, poor dental care imposes substantial downstream costs on our community (read: tax base).

People will say we can’t afford it when the government is trying to return the budget to surplus. But the reality is that it would be an investment rather than an expense. Implementing this via this year’s budget would have negligible cost impact this year and for their beloved surplus.

I’ve helped on Greens’ stalls collecting petition signatures supporting this initiative and can say that almost everyone I spoke with signed up. It has almost universal support.

Jim Jones said :

john87_no1 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

The same reasons my tax dollars get spent on lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private schools – personal wealth *shouldn’t* dictate distribution and accessibility of Govt funding/services.

+1

And all that aside. Even people who look after their teeth carefully need to visit the dentist sometimes.

Now, what was the last paragraph in the OP again?

But I don’t use your teeth, and the services on the Lower North Shore of Sydney, or anywhere for that matter, are available for the use of all.

Moreover, parents who send their children to private schools pay taxes for the upkeep of the public eduction system too.

One could argue until the cows come home about for what we contribute and what one uses.

My taxes contribute to lots of things I do not use and I dare say yours do too, so don’t play the cherry-picker with me.

My point is, that personal responsability has to come into it at some stage. If you want me to pay for your teeth, you can hold up your end of the bargin by doing your best to keep them healthy.

A further point is those on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder are in effect net taxation consumers whereas most on the upper end are net taxation contributors.

Think about that next time you stick your hand out of something.

Yay, the Greens actually pushing something sensible.
It’s very unfortunate that Dental has been effectively left out of the public health system, aside from a couple of tokenistic programs aimed at kids and centrelink recipients.
It’s a really important aspect of public health, and it’s one where prevention is significantly better than a cure. Its absence from government support is a massive hole in the system… a cavity if you will.

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

If you actually believe this is solely the issue and have put it into practice (I don’t need to go to the dentist, I brush and floss!) you should make a booking ASAP.
Plaque will gradually build up no matter how well you brush – you can only minimize it, which is why it’s recommended you go at the very least once a year and preferably every six months so buildup can be removed and any nascent problems identified.

random said :

I know someone who didn’t want to pay for a filling so they waited until it got sufficiently infected that it was done for free at the hospital.

(By which I mean: the rotten tooth and surrounding infected tissue was gouged out under general anaesthetic, an outcome both worse for the patient and substantially more expensive for the health system.)

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

Even if you’re not going to listen to bleeding heart leftists who don’t have talkshows on 2CA, you should be interested in this because you have to pay anyway. I know someone who didn’t want to pay for a filling so they waited until it got sufficiently infected that it was done for free at the hospital. The quote above says that 7-10% of GP visits result from untreated dental problems: your tax dollars, your overburdened health system.

Even if you look after your teeth, it’s valuable to have frequent checkups for a clean, polish and fluoride treatment as well as a quick check to see if something is wrong. Catch a problem early and it can be a small filling without anaesthetic.

john87_no1 said :

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

The same reasons my tax dollars get spent on lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private schools – personal wealth *shouldn’t* dictate distribution and accessibility of Govt funding/services.

+1

And all that aside. Even people who look after their teeth carefully need to visit the dentist sometimes.

Now, what was the last paragraph in the OP again?

Alderney said :

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

The same reasons my tax dollars get spent on lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private schools – personal wealth *shouldn’t* dictate distribution and accessibility of Govt funding/services.

It’s funny to me, how people will harp on about the inefficiencies of government, and the benefits of personal responsibility, free markets. Until the market prices them out. Aside from dental care, a similar thing is happening with childcare.

In fact, the free market approach would be reduction in barriers into the market—i.e. deregulate, encourage lower standards for dentist/dental aides to enter the market, so that they can do basic procedures at less cost. Or encourage the free market to make a buck—e.g. Flight Centre could create special medical tourism combo packages so that people can have their teeth done, a CT scan of their choice, the sights in Phuket and a prostate exam. Or Bunnings could sell teeth fixing epoxy and disposable tools.

If Denticare becomes reality, someone has to manage funding, prevent rorting (more public servants, can’t have that). Someone has to create schemes to encourage dentists to serve rural areas (more meetings, fundings, consultations, or transport assistance schemes for those in the rural). And then if scarce funding is reflected in long wait times (familiar), someone has to juke the stats to meet funding requirements (also familiar).

Essentially what is being proposed is that government act as an insurance company. I would benefit from Denticare, so that’s good. But that good, comes with the “bad” of more government intervention that is frequently complained about here.

As for those in the “centre-right”, some of those already look harshly on Medicare. e.g. NSW elected official: http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/2012/02/medicare-the-loss-of-personal-freedom.html

Dental care IS expensive – having just recently had braces I can certainly testify to this! Surely basic check-ups every year should be covered at least?

Having the Greens suggest something that isn’t monumentally stupid is a shock to the senses.

Why do I have to pay for someone’s inability to brush their teeth and their desitre to eat s*** food until their teeth rot?

I know this argument could be extented to wider health issues such as, why should I pay for your inability to exercise and desire to eat s*** food until you’re the size of a house with all the health complications that go along with that, but teeth are bloody expensive and supply and demand will say more people making appointments at the dentist means longer waiting times and higher prices.

Unless that is only certain dentists will provide services to the great unwashed (sorry, lower North Shore of Sydney and Eastern Suburbs private school boy superiority complex coming out there).

Like most health-related issues, this is one where there is lots of room for a standoff between the Commonwealth and the states/territories, with the self-interested violins of the health funds and the dental lobby playing a support part amplified by media hysteria. . My recollection is that promises were made at one point but it probably became too hard.
The other complication is that, when there was a Commonwealth scheme to enable people with dental and other problems to get their teeth fixed, it had to be closed down because of reported wildly excessive overservicing and overcharging by some dentists. (See also the abuse of the Meducare safety net by some medical specialists). It would be irresponsible for any government – Commonwealth or state/territory, Labor or Coalition – to set up something that could be so easily rorted by the unscrupulous,
No, I don’t know what the answer is.

I hate it when the Greens do something sensible,it offends my centre-right sensibilities.

Basic dental cover through public health makes sense. I had a colleague who headed to Thailand for major dental work simply because they were facing a bill of over 15k here for a number of root canals and crowns. The same cost under 10k in Chiang Mai including flights, accommodation and a decent holiday before the surgery.

I’ve always found it puzzling, I had to join private health care before being able afford basic dental care, I mean, I only joined the private health care to avoid a huge medicare bill, so I end up winning any way, but I can understand there is a lot of people who can’t afford either.